I am surprised how good the reception was in Glasgow this evening of
Radio Caroline on 648 kHz. I know the power has been increased (to 5
kW I believe). What would happen if they put the power up to (say)
100 kW? What sort of coverage area would this produce (day and
night)?
I would say the reception was better than the World Service used to
be, but presumably this is because WS was highly directional. I am
wondering how it compares with Radio Luxembourg 208 m in the day. I
think it is probably better.
How much would it cost to increase power to 100 KW and operate at 100KW?
How many listeners? I don't even know anyone who listens to Medium Wave.
How much would it cost to increase power to 100 KW and operate at 100KW?Yu may like to look at this page:-
How many listeners? I don't even know anyone who listens to Medium Wave.
Caroline has enough listeners to pay the bills on its various output
streams by selling advertising. It is also run by an group of
enthusiasts who aren't too fussed about getting rich, some of whom
worked for the station in its pirate days. The transmitter site they are using at the moment used to have a 500 kilowatt transmitter serving the
BBC World Service on 648kHz, which is their allocated frequency.
On 16/12/2021 20:21, Scott wrote:[]
I am surprised how good the reception was in Glasgow this evening of
Radio Caroline on 648 kHz. I know the power has been increased (to 5
How much would it cost to increase power to 100 KW and operate at
100KW? How many listeners? I don't even know anyone who listens to
Medium Wave.
You know_of_ at least one - you reposted him above (-:
[I suppose you may not_know_ him.]
I am surprised how good the reception was in Glasgow this evening of
Radio Caroline on 648 kHz. I know the power has been increased (to 5
kW I believe). What would happen if they put the power up to (say)
100 kW? What sort of coverage area would this produce (day and
night)?
I would say the reception was better than the World Service used to
be, but presumably this is because WS was highly directional. I am
wondering how it compares with Radio Luxembourg 208 m in the day. I
think it is probably better.
On 16/12/2021 20:21, Scott wrote:
I am surprised how good the reception was in Glasgow this evening of
Radio Caroline on 648 kHz. I know the power has been increased (to 5
kW I believe). What would happen if they put the power up to (say)
100 kW? What sort of coverage area would this produce (day and
night)?
I would say the reception was better than the World Service used to
be, but presumably this is because WS was highly directional. I am
wondering how it compares with Radio Luxembourg 208 m in the day. I
think it is probably better.
How much would it cost to increase power to 100 KW and operate at 100KW?
How many listeners? I don't even know anyone who listens to Medium Wave.
On 16/12/2021 21:22, MB wrote:
How much would it cost to increase power to 100 KW and operate at 100KW?
How many listeners? I don't even know anyone who listens to Medium
Wave.
Caroline has enough listeners to pay the bills on its various output
streams by selling advertising. It is also run by an group of enthusiasts
who aren't too fussed about getting rich, some of whom worked for the
station in its pirate days. The transmitter site they are using at the
moment used to have a 500 kilowatt transmitter serving the BBC World
Service on 648kHz, which is their allocated frequency.
--
Tciao for Now!
John.
It will vary over the seasons though. It may be good sometimes and rotten in >others, Its also on the internet of course.
Brian
It will vary over the seasons though. It may be good sometimes and rotten in others, Its also on the internet of course.
Brian
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 09:08:17 -0000, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)" <briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:10 kW out of the back of the transmitter, will take more than 10 kW of electricity in. I don't know what the efficiency of modern AM
It will vary over the seasons though. It may be good sometimes and rotten in >> others, Its also on the internet of course.Thanks. I was more interested in the propagation (I never thought 5
Brian
kW would travel nearly 500 miles) than the economics of the station. I
assume the very low frequency and absence of co-channel interference
both help.
I can see that 100 kW may be prohibitively expensive but would an
increase to 10 kW or whatever cost very much?
I believe the the nominal power takes account of the gain at the
antenna and is not the electricity consumption of the transmitter, but
could someone clarify? If it is consumption, then 10 kW would be
about the same as three fan heaters - hardly likely to make or break
the station's business model.
On 16/12/2021 21:36, John Williamson wrote:
Caroline has enough listeners to pay the bills on its various output
streams by selling advertising. It is also run by an group of
enthusiasts who aren't too fussed about getting rich, some of whom
worked for the station in its pirate days. The transmitter site they are
using at the moment used to have a 500 kilowatt transmitter serving the
BBC World Service on 648kHz, which is their allocated frequency.
So how many million listeners do they have?
On 17/12/2021 09:43, Scott wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 09:08:17 -0000, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)" <briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
It will vary over the seasons though. It may be good sometimes andThanks. I was more interested in the propagation (I never thought 5
rotten in others, Its also on the internet of course. Brian
kW would travel nearly 500 miles) than the economics of the station. I assume the very low frequency and absence of co-channel interference
both help.
I can see that 100 kW may be prohibitively expensive but would an
increase to 10 kW or whatever cost very much?
I believe the the nominal power takes account of the gain at the10 kW out of the back of the transmitter, will take more than 10 kW of electricity in. I don't know what the efficiency of modern AM
antenna and is not the electricity consumption of the transmitter, but could someone clarify? If it is consumption, then 10 kW would be
about the same as three fan heaters - hardly likely to make or break
the station's business model.
transmitters is, probably better than 50% ?
There's the old joke about BBC TV Centre, a Megawatt in to produce just
2 x 1 volt p-p into 75 Ohms
In article <j236ctFldcoU1@mid.individual.net>,
Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 17/12/2021 09:43, Scott wrote:you forgot the 2 x 1mW into 600 ohms., and it was well over 1 MW. I saw the power meters in CAR.
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 09:08:17 -0000, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"10 kW out of the back of the transmitter, will take more than 10 kW of
<briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
It will vary over the seasons though. It may be good sometimes andThanks. I was more interested in the propagation (I never thought 5
rotten in others, Its also on the internet of course. Brian
kW would travel nearly 500 miles) than the economics of the station. I
assume the very low frequency and absence of co-channel interference
both help.
I can see that 100 kW may be prohibitively expensive but would an
increase to 10 kW or whatever cost very much?
I believe the the nominal power takes account of the gain at the
antenna and is not the electricity consumption of the transmitter, but
could someone clarify? If it is consumption, then 10 kW would be
about the same as three fan heaters - hardly likely to make or break
the station's business model.
electricity in. I don't know what the efficiency of modern AM
transmitters is, probably better than 50% ?
There's the old joke about BBC TV Centre, a Megawatt in to produce just
2 x 1 volt p-p into 75 Ohms
You have not been in the cab with white van man then!
These seem to be the main users of medium wave these days on the road.
You have not been in the cab with white van man then!
Nostalgia is a wonderful thing.
On 17/12/2021 09:12, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
You have not been in the cab with white van man then!
These seem to be the main users of medium wave these days on the road.
Not if they've got DAB
Bill
Brian Gaff (Sofa) <briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
You have not been in the cab with white van man then!
Oi!
I happen to drive a white van and my radio is permanently tuned to R4
VHF or L.W. Perhaps white van women have different tastes in radio
:-).
--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk
Well you obviously drive a more modern or more up market white van than the locals around here, of course I say white van man, I am not commenting on
the colour of the man or his or her van here, I simply mean those vans
that when they go sound like a bucket of rattling bolts and when parked up are very grubby and dented with those head height non foldable wing mirrors on brackets at pedestrian head height. You often also find them half on the pavement with bits of double glazed windows reared up against the fence of the house they are working on, all nattering over a very loud radio in some odd language.
Yes I'd imagine being allowed to run at high power would cost them a lot
more dosh and probably interfere with other local services. Its also interesting to notice that every so often, BBC Essex has a day when its a kind of version of the old Caroline, and also Manx radio often do a few
hours called Caroline north. Most of these tend to be publicity our the upkeep of radio history, mainly the ships which are still afloat but mostly in harbours and estuaries these days.
Nostalgia is a wonderful thing.
Brian
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 09:08:17 -0000, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)" <briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
It will vary over the seasons though. It may be good sometimes and rotten in >> others, Its also on the internet of course.
Brian
Thanks. I was more interested in the propagation (I never thought 5
kW would travel nearly 500 miles) than the economics of the station. I
assume the very low frequency and absence of co-channel interference
both help.
I can see that 100 kW may be prohibitively expensive but would an
increase to 10 kW or whatever cost very much?
I believe the the nominal power takes account of the gain at the
antenna and is not the electricity consumption of the transmitter, but
could someone clarify? If it is consumption, then 10 kW would be
about the same as three fan heaters - hardly likely to make or break
the station's business model.
Brian Gaff (Sofa) <briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
You have not been in the cab with white van man then!
Oi!
I happen to drive a white van and my radio is permanently tuned to R4
VHF or L.W. Perhaps white van women have different tastes in radio
:-).
Well the ones around here seem not to have judging by the crackling on the Asian am station they all seem to listen to.
Brian
Op 17-12-2021 om 10:43 schreef Scott:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 09:08:17 -0000, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
<briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
It will vary over the seasons though. It may be good sometimes and
rotten in
others, Its also on the internet of course.
Brian
Thanks. I was more interested in the propagation (I never thought 5
kW would travel nearly 500 miles) than the economics of the station. I
assume the very low frequency and absence of co-channel interference
both help.
I can see that 100 kW may be prohibitively expensive but would an
increase to 10 kW or whatever cost very much?
I believe the the nominal power takes account of the gain at the
antenna and is not the electricity consumption of the transmitter, but
could someone clarify? If it is consumption, then 10 kW would be
about the same as three fan heaters - hardly likely to make or break
the station's business model.
Please check the power used by your fan heaters....
10.000 Watts is a lot more, I think...
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse).
And to produce 10kW ERP, you need a lot more power.
All high power mediumwave transmissions ended in The Netherlands
because of the energy bill. The told that it was about 100.000 euro
per year, which will be much more nowadays.
Op 17-12-2021 om 10:43 schreef Scott:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 09:08:17 -0000, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
<briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
It will vary over the seasons though. It may be good sometimes and rotten in
others, Its also on the internet of course.
Brian
Thanks. I was more interested in the propagation (I never thought 5
kW would travel nearly 500 miles) than the economics of the station. I
assume the very low frequency and absence of co-channel interference
both help.
I can see that 100 kW may be prohibitively expensive but would an
increase to 10 kW or whatever cost very much?
I believe the the nominal power takes account of the gain at the
antenna and is not the electricity consumption of the transmitter, but
could someone clarify? If it is consumption, then 10 kW would be
about the same as three fan heaters - hardly likely to make or break
the station's business model.
Please check the power used by your fan heaters....
10.000 Watts is a lot more, I think...
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse).
And to produce 10kW ERP, you need a lot more power.
All high power mediumwave transmissions ended in The Netherlands
because of the energy bill. The told that it was about 100.000 euro
per year, which will be much more nowadays.
On 17/12/2021 20:02, Rink wrote:
Op 17-12-2021 om 10:43 schreef Scott:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 09:08:17 -0000, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
<briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
It will vary over the seasons though. It may be good sometimes and
rotten in
others, Its also on the internet of course.
Brian
Thanks. I was more interested in the propagation (I never thought 5
kW would travel nearly 500 miles) than the economics of the station. I
assume the very low frequency and absence of co-channel interference
both help.
I can see that 100 kW may be prohibitively expensive but would an
increase to 10 kW or whatever cost very much?
I believe the the nominal power takes account of the gain at the
antenna and is not the electricity consumption of the transmitter, but
could someone clarify? If it is consumption, then 10 kW would be
about the same as three fan heaters - hardly likely to make or break
the station's business model.
Please check the power used by your fan heaters....
The last domestic fan heater I bought was 2 kilowatts, there were 3
kilowatt units on the other shelf for use on building sites.
10.000 Watts is a lot more, I think...
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse).
The main input fuse on my house is 80 Amps. The supply for each floor is rated at 50 Amps, according to the breaker.
And to produce 10kW ERP, you need a lot more power.
Modern AM transmitters run at about 66% efficiency, needing, in the case
of the one I just checked, 666 kW to produce 400 kW at 100% modulation.
ERP is not the same as transmitter output power and varies with the
antenna design. Directional antennae can produce more ERP than the transmitter produces.
All high power mediumwave transmissions ended in The Netherlands
because of the energy bill. The told that it was about 100.000 euro
per year, which will be much more nowadays.
I hate to think what the BBC's total transmitter energy bill is.
In article <j249mjFs359U1@mid.individual.net>,
John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
On 17/12/2021 20:02, Rink wrote:
Op 17-12-2021 om 10:43 schreef Scott:The last domestic fan heater I bought was 2 kilowatts, there were 3
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 09:08:17 -0000, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
<briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
It will vary over the seasons though. It may be good sometimes and
rotten in
others, Its also on the internet of course.
Brian
Thanks. I was more interested in the propagation (I never thought 5
kW would travel nearly 500 miles) than the economics of the station. I
assume the very low frequency and absence of co-channel interference
both help.
I can see that 100 kW may be prohibitively expensive but would an
increase to 10 kW or whatever cost very much?
I believe the the nominal power takes account of the gain at the
antenna and is not the electricity consumption of the transmitter, but
could someone clarify? If it is consumption, then 10 kW would be
about the same as three fan heaters - hardly likely to make or break
the station's business model.
Please check the power used by your fan heaters....
kilowatt units on the other shelf for use on building sites.
10.000 Watts is a lot more, I think...The main input fuse on my house is 80 Amps. The supply for each floor is
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse).
rated at 50 Amps, according to the breaker.
And to produce 10kW ERP, you need a lot more power.
Modern AM transmitters run at about 66% efficiency, needing, in the case
of the one I just checked, 666 kW to produce 400 kW at 100% modulation.
ERP is not the same as transmitter output power and varies with the
antenna design. Directional antennae can produce more ERP than the
transmitter produces.
All high power mediumwave transmissions ended in The NetherlandsI hate to think what the BBC's total transmitter energy bill is.
because of the energy bill. The told that it was about 100.000 euro
per year, which will be much more nowadays.
It isn't their bill anymore. The transmittters were sold off year ago.
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 21:02:43 +0100, Rink
<rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> wrote:
Op 17-12-2021 om 10:43 schreef Scott:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 09:08:17 -0000, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
<briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
It will vary over the seasons though. It may be good sometimes and rotten in
others, Its also on the internet of course.
Brian
Thanks. I was more interested in the propagation (I never thought 5
kW would travel nearly 500 miles) than the economics of the station. I
assume the very low frequency and absence of co-channel interference
both help.
I can see that 100 kW may be prohibitively expensive but would an
increase to 10 kW or whatever cost very much?
I believe the the nominal power takes account of the gain at the
antenna and is not the electricity consumption of the transmitter, but
could someone clarify? If it is consumption, then 10 kW would be
about the same as three fan heaters - hardly likely to make or break
the station's business model.
Please check the power used by your fan heaters....
Here is one (Philips) that is rated at 3,000 Watts (ie 3 kW). Three
of these would be 9 kW, so I am not far out.
10.000 Watts is a lot more, I think...
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse).
I thought the incoming fuse ('board fuse') was 100 Amps.
And to produce 10kW ERP, you need a lot more power.
All high power mediumwave transmissions ended in The Netherlands
because of the energy bill. The told that it was about 100.000 euro
per year, which will be much more nowadays.
Interestingly, IIRC the transmitter used by Caroline transmitted Radio Netherlands at one stage when there was a fire at the transmitter in
Holland. (*)
(*) I realise this was different transmitter (400 kW) and different
antenna (as Caroline uses the reserve antenna).
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 21:02:43 +0100, Rink
<rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> wrote:
Op 17-12-2021 om 10:43 schreef Scott:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 09:08:17 -0000, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
<briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
It will vary over the seasons though. It may be good sometimes and rotten in
others, Its also on the internet of course.
Brian
Thanks. I was more interested in the propagation (I never thought 5
kW would travel nearly 500 miles) than the economics of the station. I
assume the very low frequency and absence of co-channel interference
both help.
I can see that 100 kW may be prohibitively expensive but would an
increase to 10 kW or whatever cost very much?
I believe the the nominal power takes account of the gain at the
antenna and is not the electricity consumption of the transmitter, but
could someone clarify? If it is consumption, then 10 kW would be
about the same as three fan heaters - hardly likely to make or break
the station's business model.
Please check the power used by your fan heaters....
Here is one (Philips) that is rated at 3,000 Watts (ie 3 kW). Three
of these would be 9 kW, so I am not far out.
10.000 Watts is a lot more, I think...
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse).
I thought the incoming fuse ('board fuse') was 100 Amps.
Interestingly, IIRC the transmitter used by Caroline transmitted Radio Netherlands at one stage when there was a fire at the transmitter in
And to produce 10kW ERP, you need a lot more power.
All high power mediumwave transmissions ended in The Netherlands
because of the energy bill. The told that it was about 100.000 euro
per year, which will be much more nowadays.
Holland. (*)
(*) I realise this was different transmitter (400 kW) and different
antenna (as Caroline uses the reserve antenna).
On 17/12/2021 13:48, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Brian Gaff (Sofa) <briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
You have not been in the cab with white van man then!
Oi!
I happen to drive a white van and my radio is permanently tuned to R4
VHF or L.W. Perhaps white van women have different tastes in radio
:-).
I drive a white van and I avoid Radio Four because the woke agenda does
my head in.
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse).
Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> wrote:
[...]
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse).
Most UK houses have main fuses from 80A to 120A. A cooker and a shower
used together might take 10kW (40A) plus 8kW (32A). If there are
electrical heaters and an immersion heater also running, that could very >easily take the total house load up to 100A.
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 22:35:36 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> wrote:
[...]
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse).
Most UK houses have main fuses from 80A to 120A. A cooker and a shower
used together might take 10kW (40A) plus 8kW (32A). If there are
electrical heaters and an immersion heater also running, that could very
easily take the total house load up to 100A.
60A here. This is fine for my usage because I don't have electrical
heating or an immersion heater or an electrically heated shower or an electric car, but who knows what adjustments some future owner of this
house may have to make.
Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> wrote:
[...]
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse).
Most UK houses have main fuses from 80A to 120A. A cooker and a shower
used together might take 10kW (40A) plus 8kW (32A). If there are
electrical heaters and an immersion heater also running, that could very easily take the total house load up to 100A.
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 22:35:36 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> wrote:
[...]
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse).
Most UK houses have main fuses from 80A to 120A. A cooker and a shower
used together might take 10kW (40A) plus 8kW (32A). If there are
electrical heaters and an immersion heater also running, that could very
easily take the total house load up to 100A.
60A here. This is fine for my usage because I don't have electrical
heating or an immersion heater or an electrically heated shower or an electric car, but who knows what adjustments some future owner of this
house may have to make.
Rod.
In article <pnuprg5ftrvh2ocsdpqndtaoj4a2aftdlq@4ax.com>,
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 21:02:43 +0100, Rink
<rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> wrote:
Op 17-12-2021 om 10:43 schreef Scott:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 09:08:17 -0000, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
<briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
It will vary over the seasons though. It may be good sometimes and rotten in
others, Its also on the internet of course.
Brian
Thanks. I was more interested in the propagation (I never thought 5
kW would travel nearly 500 miles) than the economics of the station. I
assume the very low frequency and absence of co-channel interference
both help.
I can see that 100 kW may be prohibitively expensive but would an
increase to 10 kW or whatever cost very much?
I believe the the nominal power takes account of the gain at the
antenna and is not the electricity consumption of the transmitter, but
could someone clarify? If it is consumption, then 10 kW would be
about the same as three fan heaters - hardly likely to make or break
the station's business model.
Please check the power used by your fan heaters....
Here is one (Philips) that is rated at 3,000 Watts (ie 3 kW). Three
of these would be 9 kW, so I am not far out.
10.000 Watts is a lot more, I think...
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse).
I thought the incoming fuse ('board fuse') was 100 Amps.
Mine is only 60A. When the house was built that was probably considered far >too big.
Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> wrote:
[...]
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse).
Most UK houses have main fuses from 80A to 120A. A cooker and a shower
used together might take 10kW (40A) plus 8kW (32A). If there are
electrical heaters and an immersion heater also running, that could very >easily take the total house load up to 100A.
On 18/12/2021 09:01, Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 22:35:36 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalidworth bearing in mind that a main fuse can carry a lot more than its
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> wrote:
[...]
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse).
Most UK houses have main fuses from 80A to 120A. A cooker and a shower
used together might take 10kW (40A) plus 8kW (32A). If there are
electrical heaters and an immersion heater also running, that could very >>> easily take the total house load up to 100A.
60A here. This is fine for my usage because I don't have electrical
heating or an immersion heater or an electrically heated shower or an
electric car, but who knows what adjustments some future owner of this
house may have to make.
rated current for a fair while. And many things don't call for full
power all the time - cookers, dishwashers etc. A more difficult
equation can be electric showers + teenagers.
In article <1pkcr6w.6rxsmb33om1bN%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid>,
Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:
Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> wrote:
[...]
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse).
Most UK houses have main fuses from 80A to 120A. A cooker and a shower
used together might take 10kW (40A) plus 8kW (32A). If there are
electrical heaters and an immersion heater also running, that could very
easily take the total house load up to 100A.
and, my car charging is 30A. That supply has a CT over the incoming feeder >(60A). If it senses the load becoming too great, the car charger is
switched off.
Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 22:35:36 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> wrote:
[...]
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse).
Most UK houses have main fuses from 80A to 120A. A cooker and a shower
used together might take 10kW (40A) plus 8kW (32A). If there are
electrical heaters and an immersion heater also running, that could very >>> easily take the total house load up to 100A.
60A here. This is fine for my usage because I don't have electrical
heating or an immersion heater or an electrically heated shower or an
electric car, but who knows what adjustments some future owner of this
house may have to make.
Rod.
Electric car charging is going to be the big issue. Even now you have to >apply to the distribution company before you install a charger. (And
likewise if you want to install a heat pump) ) As I understand it, any >necessary strengthening of the supply is at their expense at the moment. My >electrician, who’s been on a course with the distribution company to
install such chargers, says that this will end soon, and it will be at your >expense. There’s also going to be a crack down on unauthorised
installations once you have to pay, with the consumer being billed for >rectification work. I plan to get a charger point installed soon, even
though I don’t have an electric car.
Since looking into this I’ve discovered things I didn’t know about how >electricity is supplied to houses. On this 1980s estate it’s common to
daisy chain houses together, so the supply comes into house A to their fuse >and then another wire comes out and over to house B. To have a charger >installed this has to be replaced by a dedicated feed. A house down the
road gained an electric car and the distribution company had to engage in >digging to change the feed arrangements. So it’s not just a case of >installing a bigger service fuse.
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 21:45:48 +0000 (GMT), charles
<charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
In article <pnuprg5ftrvh2ocsdpqndtaoj4a2aftdlq@4ax.com>, Scott
<newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 21:02:43 +0100, Rink
<rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> wrote:
Op 17-12-2021 om 10:43 schreef Scott:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 09:08:17 -0000, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
<briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
It will vary over the seasons though. It may be good sometimes and
rotten in others, Its also on the internet of course. Brian
Thanks. I was more interested in the propagation (I never thought
5 kW would travel nearly 500 miles) than the economics of the
station. I assume the very low frequency and absence of co-channel
interference both help.
I can see that 100 kW may be prohibitively expensive but would an
increase to 10 kW or whatever cost very much?
I believe the the nominal power takes account of the gain at the
antenna and is not the electricity consumption of the transmitter,
but could someone clarify? If it is consumption, then 10 kW would
be about the same as three fan heaters - hardly likely to make or
break the station's business model.
Please check the power used by your fan heaters....
Here is one (Philips) that is rated at 3,000 Watts (ie 3 kW). Three
of these would be 9 kW, so I am not far out.
10.000 Watts is a lot more, I think... It's about 50A, which cannot
be used in a normal house (35A fuse).
I thought the incoming fuse ('board fuse') was 100 Amps.
Mine is only 60A. When the house was built that was probably considered
far too big.
Definitely 100A here. Our supply was upgraded a couple of years ago. I
don't remember what it was before.
Op 17-12-2021 om 22:10 schreef Scott:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 21:02:43 +0100, Rink
<rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> wrote:
Op 17-12-2021 om 10:43 schreef Scott:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 09:08:17 -0000, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
<briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
It will vary over the seasons though. It may be good sometimes and rotten in
others, Its also on the internet of course.
Brian
Thanks. I was more interested in the propagation (I never thought 5
kW would travel nearly 500 miles) than the economics of the station. I >>>> assume the very low frequency and absence of co-channel interference
both help.
I can see that 100 kW may be prohibitively expensive but would an
increase to 10 kW or whatever cost very much?
I believe the the nominal power takes account of the gain at the
antenna and is not the electricity consumption of the transmitter, but >>>> could someone clarify? If it is consumption, then 10 kW would be
about the same as three fan heaters - hardly likely to make or break
the station's business model.
Please check the power used by your fan heaters....
Here is one (Philips) that is rated at 3,000 Watts (ie 3 kW). Three
of these would be 9 kW, so I am not far out.
Wow, those are serious....
10.000 Watts is a lot more, I think...
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse).
I thought the incoming fuse ('board fuse') was 100 Amps.
Here it is 35 or 40A, (the fuse I cannot reach),
The fuses I can reach are max 16A.
I've read that Caroline bought the 25 kW transmitter, which was usedInterestingly, IIRC the transmitter used by Caroline transmitted Radio
And to produce 10kW ERP, you need a lot more power.
All high power mediumwave transmissions ended in The Netherlands
because of the energy bill. The told that it was about 100.000 euro
per year, which will be much more nowadays.
Netherlands at one stage when there was a fire at the transmitter in
Holland. (*)
(*) I realise this was different transmitter (400 kW) and different
antenna (as Caroline uses the reserve antenna).
in Heinenoord (south of Rotterdam) on 828 kHz. For example by Arrow
Classic Rock, many years ago, later Radio 10 Gold.
<https://radiovisie.eu/nieuwe-caroline-zender-heeft-een-nederlandse-geschiedenis/>
Radio Netherlands was the world service, which only transmitted on
shortwave in The Netherlands (Zeewolde, Flevoland).
There were two fires in the same month (Lopik and Smilde), both in
towers with VHF-FM stations, but no mediumwave transmitters.
The Smilde mast collapsed. The Lopik mast was off air for some time.
Dutch radio hired the big 648 kHz transmitter in Orfordness for
the Dutch Radio 1, the news station.
Rink
On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 09:29:02 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 22:35:36 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> wrote:
[...]
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse).
Most UK houses have main fuses from 80A to 120A. A cooker and a shower >>>> used together might take 10kW (40A) plus 8kW (32A). If there are
electrical heaters and an immersion heater also running, that could very >>>> easily take the total house load up to 100A.
60A here. This is fine for my usage because I don't have electrical
heating or an immersion heater or an electrically heated shower or an
electric car, but who knows what adjustments some future owner of this
house may have to make.
Rod.
Electric car charging is going to be the big issue. Even now you have to
apply to the distribution company before you install a charger. (And
likewise if you want to install a heat pump) ) As I understand it, any
necessary strengthening of the supply is at their expense at the moment. My >> electrician, whoÂ’s been on a course with the distribution company to
install such chargers, says that this will end soon, and it will be at your >> expense. ThereÂ’s also going to be a crack down on unauthorised
installations once you have to pay, with the consumer being billed for
rectification work. I plan to get a charger point installed soon, even
though I donÂ’t have an electric car.
Since looking into this IÂ’ve discovered things I didnÂ’t know about how
electricity is supplied to houses. On this 1980s estate itÂ’s common to
daisy chain houses together, so the supply comes into house A to their fuse >> and then another wire comes out and over to house B. To have a charger
installed this has to be replaced by a dedicated feed. A house down the
road gained an electric car and the distribution company had to engage in
digging to change the feed arrangements. So itÂ’s not just a case of
installing a bigger service fuse.
Is this single phase? Ours comes into the building as three phase
with three fuses at the point of entry. Three flats receive one
phase, three flats receive the next phase and two flats receive the
third phase. This arrangement is varied at each close to balance the
three phases.
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 09:29:02 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 22:35:36 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> wrote:
[...]
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse).
Most UK houses have main fuses from 80A to 120A. A cooker and a shower >>>>> used together might take 10kW (40A) plus 8kW (32A). If there are
electrical heaters and an immersion heater also running, that could very >>>>> easily take the total house load up to 100A.
60A here. This is fine for my usage because I don't have electrical
heating or an immersion heater or an electrically heated shower or an
electric car, but who knows what adjustments some future owner of this >>>> house may have to make.
Rod.
Electric car charging is going to be the big issue. Even now you have to >>> apply to the distribution company before you install a charger. (And
likewise if you want to install a heat pump) ) As I understand it, any
necessary strengthening of the supply is at their expense at the moment. My >>> electrician, whoÂ’s been on a course with the distribution company to
install such chargers, says that this will end soon, and it will be at your >>> expense. ThereÂ’s also going to be a crack down on unauthorised
installations once you have to pay, with the consumer being billed for
rectification work. I plan to get a charger point installed soon, even
though I donÂ’t have an electric car.
Since looking into this IÂ’ve discovered things I didnÂ’t know about how >>> electricity is supplied to houses. On this 1980s estate itÂ’s common to
daisy chain houses together, so the supply comes into house A to their fuse >>> and then another wire comes out and over to house B. To have a charger
installed this has to be replaced by a dedicated feed. A house down the
road gained an electric car and the distribution company had to engage in >>> digging to change the feed arrangements. So itÂ’s not just a case of
installing a bigger service fuse.
Is this single phase? Ours comes into the building as three phase
with three fuses at the point of entry. Three flats receive one
phase, three flats receive the next phase and two flats receive the
third phase. This arrangement is varied at each close to balance the
three phases.
All single phase. I expect the phases are balanced along the road.
On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 09:32:15 +0000, Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
On 18/12/2021 09:01, Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 22:35:36 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalidworth bearing in mind that a main fuse can carry a lot more than its
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> wrote:
[...]
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse).
Most UK houses have main fuses from 80A to 120A. A cooker and a shower >>>> used together might take 10kW (40A) plus 8kW (32A). If there are
electrical heaters and an immersion heater also running, that could very >>>> easily take the total house load up to 100A.
60A here. This is fine for my usage because I don't have electrical
heating or an immersion heater or an electrically heated shower or an
electric car, but who knows what adjustments some future owner of this
house may have to make.
rated current for a fair while. And many things don't call for full
power all the time - cookers, dishwashers etc. A more difficult
equation can be electric showers + teenagers.
I believe the same can be said for the fuses in the plugs.
What is the main fuse anyway? Is it fuse wire, or a cartridge or an electronic device? I would have thought 100 amps would be far too
much for an electonic device.
On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 09:32:15 +0000, Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
On 18/12/2021 09:01, Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 22:35:36 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalidworth bearing in mind that a main fuse can carry a lot more than its
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> wrote:
[...]
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse).
Most UK houses have main fuses from 80A to 120A. A cooker and a shower >>>> used together might take 10kW (40A) plus 8kW (32A). If there are
electrical heaters and an immersion heater also running, that could very >>>> easily take the total house load up to 100A.
60A here. This is fine for my usage because I don't have electrical
heating or an immersion heater or an electrically heated shower or an
electric car, but who knows what adjustments some future owner of this
house may have to make.
rated current for a fair while. And many things don't call for full
power all the time - cookers, dishwashers etc. A more difficult
equation can be electric showers + teenagers.
I believe the same can be said for the fuses in the plugs.
What is the main fuse anyway? Is it fuse wire, or a cartridge or an electronic device? I would have thought 100 amps would be far too
much for an electonic device.
There’s probably a clever substation transformer winding arrangement to convert 3 phase incoming to single outgoing.
In article <spkfcp$6cr$1@dont-email.me>, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 09:29:02 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 22:35:36 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid >>>>> (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> wrote:
[...]
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse). >>>>>>Most UK houses have main fuses from 80A to 120A. A cooker and a
shower used together might take 10kW (40A) plus 8kW (32A). If there >>>>>> are electrical heaters and an immersion heater also running, that
could very easily take the total house load up to 100A.
60A here. This is fine for my usage because I don't have electrical
heating or an immersion heater or an electrically heated shower or an >>>>> electric car, but who knows what adjustments some future owner of
this house may have to make.
Rod.
Electric car charging is going to be the big issue. Even now you have
to apply to the distribution company before you install a charger.
(And likewise if you want to install a heat pump) ) As I understand
it, any necessary strengthening of the supply is at their expense at
the moment. My electrician, whoÂ’s been on a course with the
distribution company to install such chargers, says that this will end >>>> soon, and it will be at your expense. ThereÂ’s also going to be a crack >>>> down on unauthorised installations once you have to pay, with the
consumer being billed for rectification work. I plan to get a charger
point installed soon, even though I donÂ’t have an electric car.
Since looking into this IÂ’ve discovered things I didnÂ’t know about how >>>> electricity is supplied to houses. On this 1980s estate itÂ’s common to >>>> daisy chain houses together, so the supply comes into house A to their >>>> fuse and then another wire comes out and over to house B. To have a
charger installed this has to be replaced by a dedicated feed. A house >>>> down the road gained an electric car and the distribution company had
to engage in digging to change the feed arrangements. So itÂ’s not just >>>> a case of installing a bigger service fuse.
Is this single phase? Ours comes into the building as three phase with
three fuses at the point of entry. Three flats receive one phase,
three flats receive the next phase and two flats receive the third
phase. This arrangement is varied at each close to balance the three
phases.
All single phase. I expect the phases are balanced along the road.
That used to be the idea, but a housing development of 24 bungalows just
down the road was all put on one phase. Probably cheaper for thr developer.
williamwright <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote:
On 17/12/2021 13:48, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Brian Gaff (Sofa) <briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:I drive a white van and I avoid Radio Four because the woke agenda does
You have not been in the cab with white van man then!
Oi!
I happen to drive a white van and my radio is permanently tuned to R4
VHF or L.W. Perhaps white van women have different tastes in radio
:-).
my head in.
I'm listening to it less and less these days because of the apallingly
bad production. Nobody seems to have told the meejah whizz-kids who
make the programmes that if they use music to introduce a scene, they
should *fade it out* when the dialogue starts, otherwise nobody can
follow the dialogue properly.
If they don't fade it out, I do - along with the programme.
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 09:29:02 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 22:35:36 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> wrote:
[...]
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse).
Most UK houses have main fuses from 80A to 120A. A cooker and a
shower used together might take 10kW (40A) plus 8kW (32A). If there >>>> are electrical heaters and an immersion heater also running, that
could very easily take the total house load up to 100A.
60A here. This is fine for my usage because I don't have electrical
heating or an immersion heater or an electrically heated shower or an
electric car, but who knows what adjustments some future owner of
this house may have to make.
Rod.
Electric car charging is going to be the big issue. Even now you have
to apply to the distribution company before you install a charger.
(And likewise if you want to install a heat pump) ) As I understand
it, any necessary strengthening of the supply is at their expense at
the moment. My electrician, who’s been on a course with the
distribution company to install such chargers, says that this will end
soon, and it will be at your expense. There’s also going to be a crack
down on unauthorised installations once you have to pay, with the
consumer being billed for rectification work. I plan to get a charger
point installed soon, even though I don’t have an electric car.
Since looking into this I’ve discovered things I didn’t know about how
electricity is supplied to houses. On this 1980s estate it’s common to
daisy chain houses together, so the supply comes into house A to their
fuse and then another wire comes out and over to house B. To have a
charger installed this has to be replaced by a dedicated feed. A house
down the road gained an electric car and the distribution company had
to engage in digging to change the feed arrangements. So it’s not just
a case of installing a bigger service fuse.
Is this single phase? Ours comes into the building as three phase with three fuses at the point of entry. Three flats receive one phase,
three flats receive the next phase and two flats receive the third
phase. This arrangement is varied at each close to balance the three phases.
All single phase. I expect the phases are balanced along the road.
charles <charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
In article <spkfcp$6cr$1@dont-email.me>, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 09:29:02 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 22:35:36 +0000,
liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> wrote:
[...]
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse). >>>>>>Most UK houses have main fuses from 80A to 120A. A cooker and a >>>>>> shower used together might take 10kW (40A) plus 8kW (32A). If
there are electrical heaters and an immersion heater also running, >>>>>> that could very easily take the total house load up to 100A.
60A here. This is fine for my usage because I don't have electrical >>>>> heating or an immersion heater or an electrically heated shower or >>>>> an electric car, but who knows what adjustments some future owner
of this house may have to make.
Rod.
Electric car charging is going to be the big issue. Even now you
have to apply to the distribution company before you install a
charger. (And likewise if you want to install a heat pump) ) As I
understand it, any necessary strengthening of the supply is at their >>>> expense at the moment. My electrician, who’s been on a course with
the distribution company to install such chargers, says that this
will end soon, and it will be at your expense. There’s also going to >>>> be a crack down on unauthorised installations once you have to pay,
with the consumer being billed for rectification work. I plan to get >>>> a charger point installed soon, even though I don’t have an electric >>>> car.
Since looking into this I’ve discovered things I didn’t know about
how electricity is supplied to houses. On this 1980s estate it’s
common to daisy chain houses together, so the supply comes into
house A to their fuse and then another wire comes out and over to
house B. To have a charger installed this has to be replaced by a
dedicated feed. A house down the road gained an electric car and the >>>> distribution company had to engage in digging to change the feed
arrangements. So it’s not just a case of installing a bigger service >>>> fuse.
Is this single phase? Ours comes into the building as three phase
with three fuses at the point of entry. Three flats receive one
phase, three flats receive the next phase and two flats receive the
third phase. This arrangement is varied at each close to balance the
three phases.
All single phase. I expect the phases are balanced along the road.
That used to be the idea, but a housing development of 24 bungalows
just down the road was all put on one phase. Probably cheaper for thr developer.
There‘s probably a clever substation transformer winding arrangement to convert 3 phase incoming to single outgoing.
A house down the
road gained an electric car and the distribution company had to engage in >digging to change the feed arrangements. So it’s not just a case of >installing a bigger service fuse.
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 22:35:36 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
williamwright <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote:
On 17/12/2021 13:48, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Brian Gaff (Sofa) <briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:I drive a white van and I avoid Radio Four because the woke agenda does
You have not been in the cab with white van man then!
Oi!
I happen to drive a white van and my radio is permanently tuned to R4
VHF or L.W. Perhaps white van women have different tastes in radio
:-).
my head in.
I'm listening to it less and less these days because of the apallingly
bad production. Nobody seems to have told the meejah whizz-kids who
make the programmes that if they use music to introduce a scene, they
should *fade it out* when the dialogue starts, otherwise nobody can
follow the dialogue properly.
If they don't fade it out, I do - along with the programme.
I'm finding similar with 'Today'. If the interviewer and interviewee
speak at the same time it is difficult to follow.
On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 09:29:02 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
A house down the
road gained an electric car and the distribution company had to engage in
digging to change the feed arrangements. So itÂ’s not just a case of
installing a bigger service fuse.
I think this is something a lot of people don't realise. If we're
really all supposed to buy electric cars by some target date or other,
even if we have the means to generate the necessary power we'll still
have to dig up practically every street in the land to distribute it.
Rod.
On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 09:29:02 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
A house down the
road gained an electric car and the distribution company had to engage in >>digging to change the feed arrangements. So it’s not just a case of >>installing a bigger service fuse.
I think this is something a lot of people don't realise. If we're
really all supposed to buy electric cars by some target date or other,
even if we have the means to generate the necessary power we'll still
have to dig up practically every street in the land to distribute it.
On 18/12/2021 11:22, Tweed wrote:
There‘s probably a clever substation transformer winding arrangement to convert 3 phase incoming to single outgoing.
More likely they have just out another two developments onto the other
two phases.
The phase shifting you suggest requires some quite substantial
electronics.
--
Here it is 35 or 40A, (the fuse I cannot reach),
The fuses I can reach are max 16A.
It’s like all the nitwits that think lamp posts can be converted to car charging points without giving any thought as to how to get the power to
the lamp post.
On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 09:29:02 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
A house down the
road gained an electric car and the distribution company had to engage in >digging to change the feed arrangements. So it’s not just a case of >installing a bigger service fuse.
I think this is something a lot of people don't realise. If we're
really all supposed to buy electric cars by some target date or other,
even if we have the means to generate the necessary power we'll still
have to dig up practically every street in the land to distribute it.
Rod.
ase. I expect the phases are balanced along the road.
That used to be the idea, but a housing development of 24 bungalows just
down the road was all put on one phase. Probably cheaper for thr developer.
It’s like all the nitwits that think lamp posts can be converted to car charging points without giving any thought as to how to get the power to
the lamp post.
On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 12:58:03 +0000, Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 09:29:02 -0000 (UTC), TweedFriend of mine, retired engineer from a company that distributes a lot
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
A house down the
road gained an electric car and the distribution company had to engage in >>> digging to change the feed arrangements. So itÂ’s not just a case of
installing a bigger service fuse.
I think this is something a lot of people don't realise. If we're
really all supposed to buy electric cars by some target date or other,
even if we have the means to generate the necessary power we'll still
have to dig up practically every street in the land to distribute it.
of power in central Scotland, says this also. Replacing gas with
electricity for heating is a big problem too. He gets accused of
being anti-green for holding such views :-)
In article <j2686eF8oq6U1@mid.individual.net>, Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 18/12/2021 11:14, charles wrote:an unlikely story. And the only Christmas lights we have are a tiny battery powered set. Still using last yeasr's batteries.
ase. I expect the phases are balanced along the road. That used to beThat's because just your house Charles, probably balances out the total
the idea, but a housing development of 24 bungalows just down the road
was all put on one phase. Probably cheaper for thr developer.
load with the other two phases ;-)
On 18/12/2021 11:14, charles wrote:
ase. I expect the phases are balanced along the road. That used to be
the idea, but a housing development of 24 bungalows just down the road
was all put on one phase. Probably cheaper for thr developer.
That's because just your house Charles, probably balances out the total
load with the other two phases ;-)
On 18/12/2021 15:31, charles wrote:
In article <j2686eF8oq6U1@mid.individual.net>, Mark CarverLEDs are a modern miracle. Our 100% lit by LED home consumes an average
<mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 18/12/2021 11:14, charles wrote:an unlikely story. And the only Christmas lights we have are a tiny battery >> powered set. Still using last yeasr's batteries.
ase. I expect the phases are balanced along the road. That used to beThat's because just your house Charles, probably balances out the total >>> load with the other two phases ;-)
the idea, but a housing development of 24 bungalows just down the road >>>> was all put on one phase. Probably cheaper for thr developer.
of 9 kWh per day of electricity all year round.
Apart from the day a friend turned up and charged his electric car we
have never used more than 11 kWh/day. (If we're away on holiday, the
base load seems to be 7 kWh/day )
Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 18/12/2021 15:31, charles wrote:This is going to be the social etiquette question of the future - can you charge a friend/visitor for charging their car at your house? When will it
In article <j2686eF8oq6U1@mid.individual.net>, Mark CarverLEDs are a modern miracle. Our 100% lit by LED home consumes an average
<mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 18/12/2021 11:14, charles wrote:an unlikely story. And the only Christmas lights we have are a tiny battery >>> powered set. Still using last yeasr's batteries.
ase. I expect the phases are balanced along the road. That used to be >>>>> the idea, but a housing development of 24 bungalows just down the road >>>>> was all put on one phase. Probably cheaper for thr developer.That's because just your house Charles, probably balances out the total >>>> load with the other two phases ;-)
of 9 kWh per day of electricity all year round.
Apart from the day a friend turned up and charged his electric car we
have never used more than 11 kWh/day. (If we're away on holiday, the
base load seems to be 7 kWh/day )
be acceptable and when not?
On 18/12/2021 15:31, charles wrote:
In article <j2686eF8oq6U1@mid.individual.net>, Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 18/12/2021 11:14, charles wrote:an unlikely story. And the only Christmas lights we have are a tiny
ase. I expect the phases are balanced along the road. That used to beThat's because just your house Charles, probably balances out the
the idea, but a housing development of 24 bungalows just down the
road was all put on one phase. Probably cheaper for thr developer.
total load with the other two phases ;-)
battery powered set. Still using last yeasr's batteries.
LEDs are a modern miracle. Our 100% lit by LED home consumes an average
of 9 kWh per day of electricity all year round. Apart from the day a
friend turned up and charged his electric car we have never used more
than 11 kWh/day. (If we're away on holiday, the base load seems to be 7 kWh/day )
Our domestic electrical circuits are based on a ring system, the sockets
are in a daisy chain that returns as a loop back to the fuse (or MCB) box.
I don't know. When the system was introduced a 13 amp plug could
carry 3,120 Watts (13x240). When the heaters had bars, a one bar
heater was 1 kW, two bar heater 2 kW and 3 bars 3 kW. The 'Sunhouse'
one is the same. Maybe the older appliances were more powerful?
10.000 Watts is a lot more, I think...
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse).
I thought the incoming fuse ('board fuse') was 100 Amps.
Here it is 35 or 40A, (the fuse I cannot reach),
The fuses I can reach are max 16A.
My ring main fuses are 32A, lighting 6A but this is domestic. I
assume a commercial or industrial system would be different..
And to produce 10kW ERP, you need a lot more power.
The BBC TV Breakfast studio presenters are proving to be better interviews >than the alleged political specialists. They ask a question, politician >waffles on by answering something entirely different, and then interviewer >comes back, states they didn’t answer the question and they ask it again. >Far more effective than interrupting, as the politician runs out of evasion >ammunition eventually.
years earlier all the lamp posts had been replaced, and (oddly) in most
cases relocated quite a few metres from the old ones.
to say, totally unsuitable for anything other than a 100W load per lamp >post.
On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 09:29:02 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
A house down the
road gained an electric car and the distribution company had to engage in >>digging to change the feed arrangements. So it’s not just a case of >>installing a bigger service fuse.
I think this is something a lot of people don't realise. If we're
really all supposed to buy electric cars by some target date or other,
even if we have the means to generate the necessary power we'll still
have to dig up practically every street in the land to distribute it.
Rod.
On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 at 12:25:44, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote
(my responses usually follow points raised):
[]
The BBC TV Breakfast studio presenters are proving to be better interviews >> than the alleged political specialists. They ask a question, politicianThat's fine when the time is unlimited, which maybe it is more for
waffles on by answering something entirely different, and then interviewer >> comes back, states they didn’t answer the question and they ask it again. >> Far more effective than interrupting, as the politician runs out of evasion >> ammunition eventually.
breakfast TV. Where it is limited - and the politician will know it is!
- if s/he can just talk out the available time, s/he has "won". (Most of
them carry enough "evasion ammunition" to run out the time.)
This is going to be the social etiquette question of the future - can you >charge a friend/visitor for charging their car at your house? When will it
be acceptable and when not?
On 18/12/2021 13:43, Mark Carver wrote:
Our domestic electrical circuits are based on a ring system, the sockets
are in a daisy chain that returns as a loop back to the fuse (or MCB) box.
This is interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNgTnFs7f5o
Bill
On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 at 12:25:44, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote
(my responses usually follow points raised):
[]
The BBC TV Breakfast studio presenters are proving to be better interviews >>than the alleged political specialists. They ask a question, politician >>waffles on by answering something entirely different, and then interviewer >>comes back, states they didn’t answer the question and they ask it again. >>Far more effective than interrupting, as the politician runs out of evasion >>ammunition eventually.That's fine when the time is unlimited, which maybe it is more for
breakfast TV. Where it is limited - and the politician will know it is!
- if s/he can just talk out the available time, s/he has "won". (Most of
them carry enough "evasion ammunition" to run out the time.)
I'm very afraid there will be draconian restrictions on individual
freedom to travel (i. e. private cars). Not, initially, to prevent the >population travelling (e. g. to protests), but that would be seen as a >convenient side-effect by some governments. I hope I'm wrong.
I don't fancy the chances of adding chargers to the lampposts,
not even if they add a solar panel on top for comedy purposes.
I've just seen an array of 240 solar panels, each about 2ft x 4 ft, in a field with an electronic notice board facing the nearby footpath and
canal. At about 10:30 this morning, the display proudly announced that
the array was generating 2 kW and the total energy generated so far
today was 5 kWH.
None of the local dog walkers and passers-by seemed to find it as
amusing as I did.
... with an electronic notice board ...
In article <1pkg6jg.1osxgfi1okasigN%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid>,
Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:
... with an electronic notice board ...
Surely that's correctly known as "the virtue signal" board -- the sign
is 100% powered by the solar array... (and that's about all it powers
at this time of year!) :)
What else is there around there it might be powering? Seems oversized
for an electric/cattle fence. A water pump? I doubt it's grid-tied and earning feed-in-tariff pennies.
On Sun, 19 Dec 2021 00:22:03 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)" ><G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
[re electric cars]
I'm very afraid there will be draconian restrictions on individual
freedom to travel (i. e. private cars). Not, initially, to prevent the >>population travelling (e. g. to protests), but that would be seen as a >>convenient side-effect by some governments. I hope I'm wrong.
I think I will have travelled on my last journey and will no longer
require electrical energy long before that happens.
Rod.
On Sun, 19 Dec 2021 at 10:24:50, Roderick Stewart ><rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote (my responses usually follow points >raised):
On Sun, 19 Dec 2021 00:22:03 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)" >><G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
[re electric cars]
I'm very afraid there will be draconian restrictions on individual >>>freedom to travel (i. e. private cars). Not, initially, to prevent the >>>population travelling (e. g. to protests), but that would be seen as a >>>convenient side-effect by some governments. I hope I'm wrong.
I think I will have travelled on my last journey and will no longer
require electrical energy long before that happens.
Rod.
Don't even mention what it takes to run a crematorium!
Well, you need more because of the transmitter (in)efficiency - I think others here have said it approaches 66% now - but a lot less because ofMany broadcast antennae have more than unity gain as they are directional.
the aerial gain, if any. (ERP is usually considered to be against an isotropic radiator; sometimes the abbreviation EIRP is used.)
[]
On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 at 10:26:10, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk>
wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
[]
I don't know. When the system was introduced a 13 amp plug could
carry 3,120 Watts (13x240). When the heaters had bars, a one bar
heater was 1 kW, two bar heater 2 kW and 3 bars 3 kW. The 'Sunhouse'
one is the same. Maybe the older appliances were more powerful?
Certainly, 2.5 kW is commoner now (especially kettles).
There is also the gradual change from 240 to 230 V (RMS) [at the same
time as a lot of the rest of Europe were moving from 220 to 230; to move
us to a common figure]. There was an initial trick using asymmetrical >tolerance bands (rather than +/- the same amount, it was allowed to
deviate more one way than the other) which meant initially nobody had to >change immediately, but the change did proceed.
For most things, it didn't matter - but filament lamps draw roughly
constant current, so it does there (and it mattered more for high-power
short life ones, such as in projectors) - not so much light output as
life. And total power out of heaters.
10.000 Watts is a lot more, I think...
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse).
I thought the incoming fuse ('board fuse') was 100 Amps.
Here it is 35 or 40A, (the fuse I cannot reach),
The fuses I can reach are max 16A.
I think we're talking at cross-purposes here. The _individual circuits_
- with individual fuses, or circuit breakers, in the distribution unit
or "fusebox"* - tends to be around 30/32/35/40 A for individual ring
mains (e. g. "downstairs sockets" or "upstairs sockets", or some
appliances, 15/16A for some other appliances, and 5/6A for lighting
circuits. But there's a master fuse for the whole dwelling, which might
be as low as 50 or 60 A for some houses, but 100A for modern ones.
* Some weeks ago, I thought the weather forecaster told me I might get
frost in a fusebox. Since I know some people have the electricity
cupboard on the outside of the house I thought that was possible, but
was still surprised: it was some time before I realised he'd said "in a
few spots"!
I make it 15kW needed. 100A would produce 23 kW so my suggestion is
My ring main fuses are 32A, lighting 6A but this is domestic. I
assume a commercial or industrial system would be different..
And to produce 10kW ERP, you need a lot more power.
Well, you need more because of the transmitter (in)efficiency - I think >others here have said it approaches 66% now - but a lot less because of
the aerial gain, if any. (ERP is usually considered to be against an >isotropic radiator; sometimes the abbreviation EIRP is used.)
[]
On Mon, 20 Dec 2021 18:38:20 +0000, John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/gallerypage.php?txid=1654&pageid=3360
On 18/12/2021 23:57, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:I understood the antenna at Orfordness was omnidirectional as it was
Well, you need more because of the transmitter (in)efficiency - I thinkMany broadcast antennae have more than unity gain as they are directional.
others here have said it approaches 66% now - but a lot less because of
the aerial gain, if any. (ERP is usually considered to be against an
isotropic radiator; sometimes the abbreviation EIRP is used.)
[]
the former reserve antenna not the one routinely used for BBC WS.
On 18/12/2021 23:57, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
Well, you need more because of the transmitter (in)efficiency - I thinkMany broadcast antennae have more than unity gain as they are directional.
others here have said it approaches 66% now - but a lot less because of
the aerial gain, if any. (ERP is usually considered to be against an
isotropic radiator; sometimes the abbreviation EIRP is used.)
[]
On 20/12/2021 19:48, Scott wrote:
On Mon, 20 Dec 2021 18:38:20 +0000, John Williamsonhttp://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/gallerypage.php?txid=1654&pageid=3360
<johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
On 18/12/2021 23:57, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:I understood the antenna at Orfordness was omnidirectional as it was
Well, you need more because of the transmitter (in)efficiency - I think >>>> others here have said it approaches 66% now - but a lot less because of >>>> the aerial gain, if any. (ERP is usually considered to be against anMany broadcast antennae have more than unity gain as they are
isotropic radiator; sometimes the abbreviation EIRP is used.)
[]
directional.
the former reserve antenna not the one routinely used for BBC WS.
On Mon, 20 Dec 2021 19:50:21 +0000, Mark Carver
<mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 20/12/2021 19:48, Scott wrote:
On Mon, 20 Dec 2021 18:38:20 +0000, John Williamson
<johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
On 18/12/2021 23:57, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:I understood the antenna at Orfordness was omnidirectional as it was
Well, you need more because of the transmitter (in)efficiency - IMany broadcast antennae have more than unity gain as they are
think others here have said it approaches 66% now - but a lot less
because of the aerial gain, if any. (ERP is usually considered to be >>>> against an isotropic radiator; sometimes the abbreviation EIRP is
used.) []
directional.
the former reserve antenna not the one routinely used for BBC WS. >http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/gallerypage.php?txid=1654&pageid=3360
Interesting, thanks. It certainly looks omnidirectional. What's with
the polypropylene rope though? When was polypropylene invented and when
was the transmitter constructed? Was some other rope used in the old
days or did this transmitter design not exist?
On 20/12/2021 19:48, Scott wrote:
On Mon, 20 Dec 2021 18:38:20 +0000, John Williamson
<johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
On 18/12/2021 23:57, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:the former reserve antenna not the one routinely used for BBC WS. >http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/gallerypage.php?txid=1654&pageid=3360
Well, you need more because of the transmitter (in)efficiency - I think >>>> others here have said it approaches 66% now - but a lot less because of >>>> the aerial gain, if any. (ERP is usually considered to be against anMany broadcast antennae have more than unity gain as they are directional. >> I understood the antenna at Orfordness was omnidirectional as it was
isotropic radiator; sometimes the abbreviation EIRP is used.)
[]
On 17/12/2021 21:57, Rink wrote:
Where's 'here' ? Presumably not the UK ?
Here it is 35 or 40A, (the fuse I cannot reach),
The fuses I can reach are max 16A.
UK homes typically have 60A incoming fuses, newer properties 100 A,
though my parents' house built in 1966 has 100A fuses, and a dual phase >supply (because it has electric storage heating)
Our domestic electrical circuits are based on a ring system, the sockets
are in a daisy chain that returns as a loop back to the fuse (or MCB) box.
Power sockets are rated at 13Amp load, the ring mains they are on are >protected by 30 or 32A fuses.
Large appliances are fed by dedicated radial circuits (as you describe) >either 16A (water heaters) or 32A (cookers etc)
You can easily pull a 10kW total load in most UK homes, though not all
on the same circuit
On 18/12/2021 11:22, Tweed wrote:
There’s probably a clever substation transformer winding arrangement toMore likely they have just out another two developments onto the other
convert 3 phase incoming to single outgoing.
two phases.
The phase shifting you suggest requires some quite substantial electronics.
On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 12:58:03 +0000, Roderick Stewart ><rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 09:29:02 -0000 (UTC), TweedFriend of mine, retired engineer from a company that distributes a lot
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
A house down the
road gained an electric car and the distribution company had to engage in >>>digging to change the feed arrangements. So it’s not just a case of >>>installing a bigger service fuse.
I think this is something a lot of people don't realise. If we're
really all supposed to buy electric cars by some target date or other,
even if we have the means to generate the necessary power we'll still
have to dig up practically every street in the land to distribute it.
of power in central Scotland, says this also. Replacing gas with
electricity for heating is a big problem too. He gets accused of
being anti-green for holding such views :-)
On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 09:32:15 +0000, Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
On 18/12/2021 09:01, Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 22:35:36 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalidworth bearing in mind that a main fuse can carry a lot more than its
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> wrote:
[...]
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse).
Most UK houses have main fuses from 80A to 120A. A cooker and a shower >>>> used together might take 10kW (40A) plus 8kW (32A). If there are
electrical heaters and an immersion heater also running, that could very >>>> easily take the total house load up to 100A.
60A here. This is fine for my usage because I don't have electrical
heating or an immersion heater or an electrically heated shower or an
electric car, but who knows what adjustments some future owner of this
house may have to make.
rated current for a fair while. And many things don't call for full
power all the time - cookers, dishwashers etc. A more difficult
equation can be electric showers + teenagers.
I believe the same can be said for the fuses in the plugs.
What is the main fuse anyway? Is it fuse wire, or a cartridge or an >electronic device? I would have thought 100 amps would be far too
much for an electonic device.
On 18/12/2021 09:01, Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 22:35:36 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> wrote:
[...]
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse).
Most UK houses have main fuses from 80A to 120A. A cooker and a shower
used together might take 10kW (40A) plus 8kW (32A). If there are
electrical heaters and an immersion heater also running, that could very >>> easily take the total house load up to 100A.
60A here. This is fine for my usage because I don't have electrical
heating or an immersion heater or an electrically heated shower or an
electric car, but who knows what adjustments some future owner of this
house may have to make.
worth bearing in mind that a main fuse can carry a lot more than its
rated current for a fair while. And many things don't call for full
power all the time - cookers, dishwashers etc. A more difficult
equation can be electric showers + teenagers.
In article <j267hqF8m46U1@mid.individual.net>,
Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
years earlier all the lamp posts had been replaced, and (oddly) in most >>cases relocated quite a few metres from the old ones.
We had that here. Seems to be a fashion thing. Whichever side
of the pavement they used to be on, swap it ... if it was against
a garden wall, it's now next to the kerb, and v.versa with no
particular logic.
to say, totally unsuitable for anything other than a 100W load per lamp >>post.
Possibly not even that, especially if *disturbed* after bodging.
A few days after Whoever-Fibre-Comm Ltd. was laying their latest
bit of network in the pavements/verges, we started getting short
glitches in the supply, which caused all the lamp posts to go off,
and then come back on after a few minutes (some kind of brown out/power
on detector action).
Reporting it was not much use, responses ranging between "Have they
come back on? Then it's working!" to "We'll send an engineer to check
*your* consumer unit/fuse". And they did, even though explicitly
asked not to. He kicked the tyres and said "Dunno, can't tell until
I disconnect everything and pull the fuse" at which point he was
asked to leave. Pointless exercise :(
Eventually the fault made itself known, when part of the pavement
ended up with a small self-excavating crater ... "there's your fault!",
right near a lamp post, on the transition cable bodge, within
the fibre-dig path ...
I don't fancy the chances of adding chargers to the lampposts,
not even if they add a solar panel on top for comedy purposes.
On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 09:29:02 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
A house down the
road gained an electric car and the distribution company had to engage in >>digging to change the feed arrangements. So it’s not just a case of >>installing a bigger service fuse.
I think this is something a lot of people don't realise. If we're
really all supposed to buy electric cars by some target date or other,
even if we have the means to generate the necessary power we'll still
have to dig up practically every street in the land to distribute it.
Rod.
In article <j260p3F7aeaU1@mid.individual.net>, John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> scribeth thus
On 18/12/2021 11:22, Tweed wrote:
There’s probably a clever substation transformer winding arrangement to >> convert 3 phase incoming to single outgoing.More likely they have just out another two developments onto the other
two phases.
The phase shifting you suggest requires some quite substantial electronics.
And seeing that the HV side is 3 phase too;!..
I don't know where they are doing that from what I've seen of it your
still going the need the same amount of cable overall...
In article <splt4e$evl$1@posie.signal11.org.uk>, Mike
<mjb@signal11.invalid> scribeth thus
In article <j267hqF8m46U1@mid.individual.net>,
Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
years earlier all the lamp posts had been replaced, and (oddly) in most >>cases relocated quite a few metres from the old ones.
We had that here. Seems to be a fashion thing. Whichever side
of the pavement they used to be on, swap it ... if it was against
a garden wall, it's now next to the kerb, and v.versa with no
particular logic.
to say, totally unsuitable for anything other than a 100W load per lamp >>post.
Possibly not even that, especially if *disturbed* after bodging.
A few days after Whoever-Fibre-Comm Ltd. was laying their latest
bit of network in the pavements/verges, we started getting short
glitches in the supply, which caused all the lamp posts to go off,
and then come back on after a few minutes (some kind of brown out/power
on detector action).
Reporting it was not much use, responses ranging between "Have they
come back on? Then it's working!" to "We'll send an engineer to check >*your* consumer unit/fuse". And they did, even though explicitly
asked not to. He kicked the tyres and said "Dunno, can't tell until
I disconnect everything and pull the fuse" at which point he was
asked to leave. Pointless exercise :(
Eventually the fault made itself known, when part of the pavement
ended up with a small self-excavating crater ... "there's your fault!", >right near a lamp post, on the transition cable bodge, within
the fibre-dig path ...
I don't fancy the chances of adding chargers to the lampposts,
not even if they add a solar panel on top for comedy purposes.
Now a few years ago a substation round here kept blowing fuses till one
day it blew a fuse with quite some gusto!
Anyway a few men from UK Power came along and one of them had his remote
fuse switch and asked the other blokes to stand in a line along the
route of the power cable, said wait ready here we go and fuse closed
loud bang as fuse blew and two of the blokes pointed to the where they thought the fault was!
They then dug down and found an old cable hadn't been cut off properly
and had arced over and sorting that cured the problem.
So how did they know it was there?, no word of a lie they felt it
through their feet !!!
In article <LuJRVBHcERwhFwtM@bancom.co.uk>,
tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk> wrote:
In article <splt4e$evl$1@posie.signal11.org.uk>, Mike
<mjb@signal11.invalid> scribeth thus
In article <j267hqF8m46U1@mid.individual.net>,
Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
years earlier all the lamp posts had been replaced, and (oddly) in most >>>> cases relocated quite a few metres from the old ones.
We had that here. Seems to be a fashion thing. Whichever side
of the pavement they used to be on, swap it ... if it was against
a garden wall, it's now next to the kerb, and v.versa with no
particular logic.
to say, totally unsuitable for anything other than a 100W load per lamp >>>> post.
Possibly not even that, especially if *disturbed* after bodging.
A few days after Whoever-Fibre-Comm Ltd. was laying their latest
bit of network in the pavements/verges, we started getting short
glitches in the supply, which caused all the lamp posts to go off,
and then come back on after a few minutes (some kind of brown out/power
on detector action).
Reporting it was not much use, responses ranging between "Have they
come back on? Then it's working!" to "We'll send an engineer to check
*your* consumer unit/fuse". And they did, even though explicitly
asked not to. He kicked the tyres and said "Dunno, can't tell until
I disconnect everything and pull the fuse" at which point he was
asked to leave. Pointless exercise :(
Eventually the fault made itself known, when part of the pavement
ended up with a small self-excavating crater ... "there's your fault!",
right near a lamp post, on the transition cable bodge, within
the fibre-dig path ...
I don't fancy the chances of adding chargers to the lampposts,
not even if they add a solar panel on top for comedy purposes.
Now a few years ago a substation round here kept blowing fuses till one
day it blew a fuse with quite some gusto!
Anyway a few men from UK Power came along and one of them had his remote
fuse switch and asked the other blokes to stand in a line along the
route of the power cable, said wait ready here we go and fuse closed
loud bang as fuse blew and two of the blokes pointed to the where they
thought the fault was!
They then dug down and found an old cable hadn't been cut off properly
and had arced over and sorting that cured the problem.
So how did they know it was there?, no word of a lie they felt it
through their feet !!!
here an underground cable problem was spotted by bubbling tarmac,
In article <842f88d4-06e2-7c7a-2b01-5003287aa647@outlook.com>, Robin ><rbw@outlook.com> scribeth thus
On 18/12/2021 09:01, Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 22:35:36 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> wrote:
[...]
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse).
Most UK houses have main fuses from 80A to 120A. A cooker and a shower >>>> used together might take 10kW (40A) plus 8kW (32A). If there are
electrical heaters and an immersion heater also running, that could very >>>> easily take the total house load up to 100A.
60A here. This is fine for my usage because I don't have electrical
heating or an immersion heater or an electrically heated shower or an
electric car, but who knows what adjustments some future owner of this
house may have to make.
worth bearing in mind that a main fuse can carry a lot more than its
rated current for a fair while. And many things don't call for full
power all the time - cookers, dishwashers etc. A more difficult
equation can be electric showers + teenagers.
Yes teenagers in showers.
Anyone beaten my youngest daughters 2 hours 15 minutes?...
Just a bigger version of a 13 amp fuse...
My combi gas boiler has a setting to turn the hot water off after so
many minutes of continuous use :-)
On 18/12/2021 10:40, Scott wrote:
What is the main fuse anyway? Is it fuse wire, or a cartridge or anElectro mechanical circuit breakers are routinely available which can repeatedly and safely break current in the range of kiloamps.
electronic device? I would have thought 100 amps would be far too
much for an electonic device.
This will safely deal with a fault current of 20 kA, though it does cost
a bit more than a piece of wire.
https://www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/products/1557062-100a-sp-20ka-type-c-mcb?msclkid=574ffec058ac1b5cf6109f01eff092c1&gclid=574ffec058ac1b5cf6109f01eff092c1&gclsrc=3p.ds
What is the main fuse anyway? Is it fuse wire, or a cartridge or an electronic device? I would have thought 100 amps would be far too
much for an electonic device.
John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
On 18/12/2021 10:40, Scott wrote:
What is the main fuse anyway? Is it fuse wire, or a cartridge or anElectro mechanical circuit breakers are routinely available which can
electronic device? I would have thought 100 amps would be far too
much for an electonic device.
repeatedly and safely break current in the range of kiloamps.
This will safely deal with a fault current of 20 kA, though it does cost
a bit more than a piece of wire.
https://www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/products/1557062-100a-sp-20ka-type-c-mcb?msclkid=574ffec058ac1b5cf6109f01eff092c1&gclid=574ffec058ac1b5cf6109f01eff092c1&gclsrc=3p.ds
The point about the incoming fuse is it is not supposed to rupture in
normal use. Having to bring the power company out to replace it at least means a qualified person is on site to deal correctly with a persistent fault. You’d not really want a householder repeatedly resetting such a protection device.
On 21/12/2021 10:56, Scott wrote:
My combi gas boiler has a setting to turn the hot water off after soI will be installing a 80 litre hot water cylinder in my flat. One bath
many minutes of continuous use :-)
or, at my rate, about 8 showers. Then the water runs cold. :-)
Gas might be an option, but I reckon the payback period is longer than >natural gas will be available for, and a boiler I can convert to
hydrogen would cost a fortune on top.
You can buy a unit that cuts the water off to the whole house after you
have drawn a set amount, which is handy in the case of a leak. Manual or
auto reset.
On 21/12/2021 11:31, Tweed wrote:
John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:Ones that need a key can be obtained, or a seal to prevent unauthorised resetting. That would be as safe as the existing system, as the seals
On 18/12/2021 10:40, Scott wrote:
What is the main fuse anyway? Is it fuse wire, or a cartridge or anElectro mechanical circuit breakers are routinely available which can
electronic device? I would have thought 100 amps would be far too
much for an electonic device.
repeatedly and safely break current in the range of kiloamps.
This will safely deal with a fault current of 20 kA, though it does cost >>> a bit more than a piece of wire.
https://www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/products/1557062-100a-sp-20ka-type-c-mcb?msclkid=574ffec058ac1b5cf6109f01eff092c1&gclid=574ffec058ac1b5cf6109f01eff092c1&gclsrc=3p.ds
The point about the incoming fuse is it is not supposed to rupture in
normal use. Having to bring the power company out to replace it at least
means a qualified person is on site to deal correctly with a persistent
fault. You’d not really want a householder repeatedly resetting such a
protection device.
are not hard to bypass, and the cartridges are available.
Admittedly, the existing fuse is reliable, safe, reasonably secure, and
*lot* cheaper than the clever option.
I was making the point that 100 Amps is not "far too much" for an
electronic device. The device could also be remotely controlled if that
was wanted.
John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
On 21/12/2021 11:31, Tweed wrote:There is actually remote control in smart meters - you can be remotely cut >off, though I grant this is not for overload protection.
John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:Ones that need a key can be obtained, or a seal to prevent unauthorised
On 18/12/2021 10:40, Scott wrote:
What is the main fuse anyway? Is it fuse wire, or a cartridge or an >>>>> electronic device? I would have thought 100 amps would be far tooElectro mechanical circuit breakers are routinely available which can
much for an electonic device.
repeatedly and safely break current in the range of kiloamps.
This will safely deal with a fault current of 20 kA, though it does cost >>>> a bit more than a piece of wire.
https://www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/products/1557062-100a-sp-20ka-type-c-mcb?msclkid=574ffec058ac1b5cf6109f01eff092c1&gclid=574ffec058ac1b5cf6109f01eff092c1&gclsrc=3p.ds
The point about the incoming fuse is it is not supposed to rupture in
normal use. Having to bring the power company out to replace it at least >>> means a qualified person is on site to deal correctly with a persistent
fault. You’d not really want a householder repeatedly resetting such a
protection device.
resetting. That would be as safe as the existing system, as the seals
are not hard to bypass, and the cartridges are available.
Admittedly, the existing fuse is reliable, safe, reasonably secure, and
*lot* cheaper than the clever option.
I was making the point that 100 Amps is not "far too much" for an
electronic device. The device could also be remotely controlled if that
was wanted.
On Tue, 21 Dec 2021 12:51:21 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
I was making the point that 100 Amps is not "far too much" for anThere is actually remote control in smart meters - you can be remotely cut >> off, though I grant this is not for overload protection.
electronic device. The device could also be remotely controlled if that
was wanted.
That should avoid Scottish Power sending the boys round: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-59733043
You have not been in the cab with white van man then!
Oi!
I happen to drive a white van
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 21:02:43 +0100, RinkBecause they’ve already used the comma as a decimal point.
<rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> wrote:
10.000 Watts is a lot more, I think...
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse).
And to produce 10kW ERP, you need a lot more power.
All high power mediumwave transmissions ended in The Netherlands
because of the energy bill. The told that it was about 100.000 euro
per year, which will be much more nowadays.
Why do you Europeans consistently mis-use the decimal point as
a thousands separator?
John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
On 18/12/2021 10:40, Scott wrote:2c1&gclsrc=3p.ds
What is the main fuse anyway? Is it fuse wire, or a cartridge or anElectro mechanical circuit breakers are routinely available which can
electronic device? I would have thought 100 amps would be far too
much for an electonic device.
repeatedly and safely break current in the range of kiloamps.
This will safely deal with a fault current of 20 kA, though it does cost
a bit more than a piece of wire.
https://www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/products/1557062-100a-sp-20ka-type-c- >mcb?msclkid=574ffec058ac1b5cf6109f01eff092c1&gclid=574ffec058ac1b5cf6109f01eff09
The point about the incoming fuse is it is not supposed to rupture in
normal use. Having to bring the power company out to replace it at least >means a qualified person is on site to deal correctly with a persistent >fault. You’d not really want a householder repeatedly resetting such a >protection device.
In article <spsdv1$ff8$1@dont-email.me>, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> >scribeth thus
John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
On 18/12/2021 10:40, Scott wrote:2c1&gclsrc=3p.ds
What is the main fuse anyway? Is it fuse wire, or a cartridge or anElectro mechanical circuit breakers are routinely available which can
electronic device? I would have thought 100 amps would be far too
much for an electonic device.
repeatedly and safely break current in the range of kiloamps.
This will safely deal with a fault current of 20 kA, though it does cost >>> a bit more than a piece of wire.
https://www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/products/1557062-100a-sp-20ka-type-c- >>mcb?msclkid=574ffec058ac1b5cf6109f01eff092c1&gclid=574ffec058ac1b5cf6109f01eff09
The point about the incoming fuse is it is not supposed to rupture in >>normal use. Having to bring the power company out to replace it at least >>means a qualified person is on site to deal correctly with a persistent >>fault. You’d not really want a householder repeatedly resetting such a >>protection device.
The fuse is there for people like an old mate of mine who was daft
enough to put a very large pair of wire cutters through the live and
neutral coming from the incomer unit to the distribution box! Quite what
he did that for god alone knows.
There was a very loud bang a very bright flash and it the force of the >explosion threw him a few yards away. His wife hearing this happen and
him scream and his seemingly lifeless body on the floor had her phoning
999 for an ambulance.
The bloke from the power gently mentioned that she should get a proper >spark's in to so the job whatever it was intended to be, the cutter
blades for the greater part vaporised!...
10.000 Watts is a lot more, I think...
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse).
And to produce 10kW ERP, you need a lot more power.
All high power mediumwave transmissions ended in The Netherlands
because of the energy bill. The told that it was about 100.000 euro
per year, which will be much more nowadays.
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 13:48:29 +0000, Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:
You have not been in the cab with white van man then!
Oi!
I happen to drive a white van
A transit?
Paul Ratcliffe <abuse@orac12.clara34.co56.uk78> wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 21:02:43 +0100, RinkBecause they’ve already used the comma as a decimal point.
<rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> wrote:
10.000 Watts is a lot more, I think...
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse).
And to produce 10kW ERP, you need a lot more power.
All high power mediumwave transmissions ended in The Netherlands
because of the energy bill. The told that it was about 100.000 euro
per year, which will be much more nowadays.
Why do you Europeans consistently mis-use the decimal point as
a thousands separator?
On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 13:06:09 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Paul Ratcliffe <abuse@orac12.clara34.co56.uk78> wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 21:02:43 +0100, RinkBecause they've already used the comma as a decimal point.
<rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> wrote:
10.000 Watts is a lot more, I think...
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse).
And to produce 10kW ERP, you need a lot more power.
All high power mediumwave transmissions ended in The Netherlands
because of the energy bill. The told that it was about 100.000 euro
per year, which will be much more nowadays.
Why do you Europeans consistently mis-use the decimal point as
a thousands separator?
Are we not misusing it as well? I thought the decimal point was
supposed to be half way up the numerals, not on the baseline.
http://www.poppyrecords.co.uk/Van/vanconversion.htm
Why do you Europeans consistently mis-use the decimal point as
a thousands separator?
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 13:48:29 +0000, Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:
You have not been in the cab with white van man then!
Oi!
I happen to drive a white van
A transit?
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 13:06:09 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Paul Ratcliffe <abuse@orac12.clara34.co56.uk78> wrote:Are we not misusing it as well? I thought the decimal point was
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 21:02:43 +0100, RinkBecause they've already used the comma as a decimal point.
<rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> wrote:
10.000 Watts is a lot more, I think...
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse).
And to produce 10kW ERP, you need a lot more power.
All high power mediumwave transmissions ended in The Netherlands
because of the energy bill. The told that it was about 100.000 euro
per year, which will be much more nowadays.
Why do you Europeans consistently mis-use the decimal point as
a thousands separator?
supposed to be half way up the numerals, not on the baseline.
There is a character for that, but the code for it seems to vary between >operating systems and it may not be included in every font.
On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 13:06:09 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Paul Ratcliffe <abuse@orac12.clara34.co56.uk78> wrote:Are we not misusing it as well? I thought the decimal point was
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 21:02:43 +0100, RinkBecause they’ve already used the comma as a decimal point.
<rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> wrote:
10.000 Watts is a lot more, I think...
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse).
And to produce 10kW ERP, you need a lot more power.
All high power mediumwave transmissions ended in The Netherlands
because of the energy bill. The told that it was about 100.000 euro
per year, which will be much more nowadays.
Why do you Europeans consistently mis-use the decimal point as
a thousands separator?
supposed to be half way up the numerals, not on the baseline.
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 21:02:43 +0100, Rink
<rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> wrote:
10.000 Watts is a lot more, I think...
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse).
And to produce 10kW ERP, you need a lot more power.
All high power mediumwave transmissions ended in The Netherlands
because of the energy bill. The told that it was about 100.000 euro
per year, which will be much more nowadays.
Why do you Europeans consistently mis-use the decimal point as
a thousands separator?
How do you represent a number which includes both thousands and
a fractional part?
What happens with millions? Do you write it as 10.000.000 or what?
Why can't use just use a comma like sensible folk?
Or do you mis-use the comma as a decimal point?
What happens if you want a list of numbers (generally separated by
a comma and a space)?
On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 12:56:38 GMT, Paul Ratcliffe ><abuse@orac12.clara34.co56.uk78> wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 21:02:43 +0100, Rink >><rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> wrote:
10.000 Watts is a lot more, I think...
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse).
And to produce 10kW ERP, you need a lot more power.
All high power mediumwave transmissions ended in The Netherlands
because of the energy bill. The told that it was about 100.000 euro
per year, which will be much more nowadays.
Why do you Europeans consistently mis-use the decimal point as
a thousands separator?
How do you represent a number which includes both thousands and
a fractional part?
What happens with millions? Do you write it as 10.000.000 or what?
Why can't use just use a comma like sensible folk?
Or do you mis-use the comma as a decimal point?
What happens if you want a list of numbers (generally separated by
a comma and a space)?
All the people I know use both commas and stops. A million and a tenth
is written 1,000,000.1 and number separators are usually at least one
space or letter like A12.3 B213 321 1,000,1230.222 c. 3,022,3333.432
On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 13:34:33 +0000, Scott
<newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 13:06:09 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Paul Ratcliffe <abuse@orac12.clara34.co56.uk78> wrote:Are we not misusing it as well? I thought the decimal point was
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 21:02:43 +0100, RinkBecause they’ve already used the comma as a decimal point.
<rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> wrote:
10.000 Watts is a lot more, I think...
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse).
And to produce 10kW ERP, you need a lot more power.
All high power mediumwave transmissions ended in The Netherlands
because of the energy bill. The told that it was about 100.000 euro
per year, which will be much more nowadays.
Why do you Europeans consistently mis-use the decimal point as
a thousands separator?
supposed to be half way up the numerals, not on the baseline.
I can be either but (half way up) needs an extra keyboard key.
On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 15:35:40 +0000, steve@swingnn.com wrote:
On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 12:56:38 GMT, Paul Ratcliffe ><abuse@orac12.clara34.co56.uk78> wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 21:02:43 +0100, Rink >><rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> wrote:
10.000 Watts is a lot more, I think...
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse).
And to produce 10kW ERP, you need a lot more power.
All high power mediumwave transmissions ended in The Netherlands
because of the energy bill. The told that it was about 100.000 euro
per year, which will be much more nowadays.
Why do you Europeans consistently mis-use the decimal point as
a thousands separator?
How do you represent a number which includes both thousands and
a fractional part?
What happens with millions? Do you write it as 10.000.000 or what?
Why can't use just use a comma like sensible folk?
Or do you mis-use the comma as a decimal point?
What happens if you want a list of numbers (generally separated by
a comma and a space)?
All the people I know use both commas and stops. A million and a tenth
is written 1,000,000.1 and number separators are usually at least one
space or letter like A12.3 B213 321 1,000,1230.222 c. 3,022,3333.432
Am I simply wrong in thinking that the decimal point was originally
placed half way up the characters?
All the people I know use both commas and stops. A million and a tenth
is written 1,000,000.1 and number separators are usually at least one
space or letter like A12.3 B213 321 1,000,1230.222 c. 3,022,3333.432
Steve
On 22/12/2021 15:35, steve@swingnn.com wrote:
All the people I know use both commas and stops. A million and a tenthThe standards for this I have come across in everyday use are the UK >1,000,000.00. and the French 1 000 000,00 The US seem to use the same as
is written 1,000,000.1 and number separators are usually at least one
space or letter like A12.3 B213 321 1,000,1230.222 c. 3,022,3333.432
Steve
the UK. The spaces are narrow spaces narrower than an n-space.
The SI convention alolows 101 000,330 245 and 101 000.330 245
Paul Ratcliffe <abuse@orac12.clara34.co56.uk78> wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 21:02:43 +0100, RinkBecause they’ve already used the comma as a decimal point.
<rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> wrote:
10.000 Watts is a lot more, I think...
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse).
And to produce 10kW ERP, you need a lot more power.
All high power mediumwave transmissions ended in The Netherlands
because of the energy bill. The told that it was about 100.000 euro
per year, which will be much more nowadays.
Why do you Europeans consistently mis-use the decimal point as
a thousands separator?
On 22/12/2021 17:46, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 17:37:27 +0000, John Williamson
<johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
On 22/12/2021 15:35, steve@swingnn.com wrote:
All the people I know use both commas and stops. A million and a tenth >>>> is written 1,000,000.1 and number separators are usually at least oneThe standards for this I have come across in everyday use are the UK
space or letter like A12.3 B213 321 1,000,1230.222 c. 3,022,3333.432 >>>>
Steve
1,000,000.00. and the French 1 000 000,00 The US seem to use the same as >>> the UK. The spaces are narrow spaces narrower than an n-space.
The SI convention alolows 101 000,330 245 and 101 000.330 245
So the decimal point is officially on the baseline now?
The decimal point is Alt + 0183. 99·99
On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 17:37:27 +0000, John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
On 22/12/2021 15:35, steve@swingnn.com wrote:
All the people I know use both commas and stops. A million and a tenthThe standards for this I have come across in everyday use are the UK
is written 1,000,000.1 and number separators are usually at least one
space or letter like A12.3 B213 321 1,000,1230.222 c. 3,022,3333.432
Steve
1,000,000.00. and the French 1 000 000,00 The US seem to use the same as
the UK. The spaces are narrow spaces narrower than an n-space.
The SI convention allows 101 000,330 245 and 101 000.330 245
So the decimal point is officially on the baseline now?
On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 17:37:27 +0000, John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
On 22/12/2021 15:35, steve@swingnn.com wrote:
All the people I know use both commas and stops. A million and a tenthThe standards for this I have come across in everyday use are the UK
is written 1,000,000.1 and number separators are usually at least one
space or letter like A12.3 B213 321 1,000,1230.222 c. 3,022,3333.432
Steve
1,000,000.00. and the French 1 000 000,00 The US seem to use the same as
the UK. The spaces are narrow spaces narrower than an n-space.
The SI convention alolows 101 000,330 245 and 101 000.330 245
So the decimal point is officially on the baseline now?
On 22/12/2021 15:35, steve@swingnn.com wrote:
All the people I know use both commas and stops. A million and a tenthThe standards for this I have come across in everyday use are the UK 1,000,000.00. and the French 1 000 000,00 The US seem to use the same as
is written 1,000,000.1 and number separators are usually at least one
space or letter like A12.3 B213 321 1,000,1230.222 c. 3,022,3333.432
Steve
the UK. The spaces are narrow spaces narrower than an n-space.
The SI convention alolows 101 000,330 245 and 101 000.330 245
On 22/12/2021 13:08, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
http://www.poppyrecords.co.uk/Van/vanconversion.htm
You've got big feet Liz.
On 22/12/2021 17:46, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 17:37:27 +0000, John WilliamsonSo it seems, though, like most others here, I was taught in school it
<johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
On 22/12/2021 15:35, steve@swingnn.com wrote:
All the people I know use both commas and stops. A million and a tenth >>>> is written 1,000,000.1 and number separators are usually at least oneThe standards for this I have come across in everyday use are the UK
space or letter like A12.3 B213 321 1,000,1230.222 c. 3,022,3333.432 >>>>
Steve
1,000,000.00. and the French 1 000 000,00 The US seem to use the same as >>> the UK. The spaces are narrow spaces narrower than an n-space.
The SI convention allows 101 000,330 245 and 101 000.330 245
So the decimal point is officially on the baseline now?
was a raised dot. The raised dot though, mainly seems to be used now as
a multiplication sign, especially when a computer is involved.
The decimal point is Alt + 0183.  99·99That is in the extended 8 bit ASCII as well as Unicode, but not in 7 bit ASCII.
On 20/12/2021 10:06, Roderick Stewart wrote:
I wonder which is cheaper, an hour's worth of gas, or a small plot of
land for a hundred years?
A hundred years? Do you have inside information on the (much overdue)
Day of Judgment?
On Mon, 20 Dec 2021 00:38:39 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
Don't even mention what it takes to run a crematorium!
Well, as I understand it they run on gas, so at least it'll be about
four and a half times cheaper than electricity.
I wonder which is cheaper, an hour's worth of gas, or a small plot of
land for a hundred years?
On 24/12/2021 10:55, Max Demian wrote:
On 20/12/2021 10:06, Roderick Stewart wrote:
Depends on where you are. In the UK and some other countries, you andI wonder which is cheaper, an hour's worth of gas, or a small plot of
land for a hundred years?
A hundred years? Do you have inside information on the (much overdue)
Day of Judgment?
your family generally get tenancy until they build on it or the Man
blows the Last Trump
In most of Europe, you get a hundred years or less, then they dig you up
and put the bones in an ossuary. In some countries, you just get a few
days on a platform while the birds recycle you as bird droppings.
Sorry, that may seem a bit too morbid for the time of year.
On 24/12/2021 11:10, John Williamson wrote:
On 24/12/2021 10:55, Max Demian wrote:
On 20/12/2021 10:06, Roderick Stewart wrote:Depends on where you are. In the UK and some other countries, you and
I wonder which is cheaper, an hour's worth of gas, or a small plot of
land for a hundred years?
A hundred years? Do you have inside information on the (much overdue)
Day of Judgment?
your family generally get tenancy until they build on it or the Man
blows the Last Trump
In most of Europe, you get a hundred years or less, then they dig you
up and put the bones in an ossuary. In some countries, you just get a
few days on a platform while the birds recycle you as bird droppings.
Sorry, that may seem a bit too morbid for the time of year.
If you must preserve your bones intact, it seems the ossuary approach,
where bodies are kept on shelves in a tomb until they are
disarticulated, then stored in a smallish box is much preferable to
burying the whole body in a coffin. I wonder why it was abandoned? I
think it was common practice in the time of Christ.
or the Man blows the Last Trump
On 24/12/2021 10:55, Max Demian wrote:
On 20/12/2021 10:06, Roderick Stewart wrote:
Depends on where you are. In the UK and some other countries, you andI wonder which is cheaper, an hour's worth of gas, or a small plot of
land for a hundred years?
A hundred years? Do you have inside information on the (much overdue)
Day of Judgment?
your family generally get tenancy until they build on it or the Man
blows the Last Trump
In most of Europe, you get a hundred years or less, then they dig you up
and put the bones in an ossuary. In some countries, you just get a few
days on a platform while the birds recycle you as bird droppings.
Sorry, that may seem a bit too morbid for the time of year.
On 24/12/2021 11:10, John Williamson wrote:
On 24/12/2021 10:55, Max Demian wrote:
On 20/12/2021 10:06, Roderick Stewart wrote:Depends on where you are. In the UK and some other countries, you and
I wonder which is cheaper, an hour's worth of gas, or a small plot of
land for a hundred years?
A hundred years? Do you have inside information on the (much overdue)
Day of Judgment?
your family generally get tenancy until they build on it or the Man
blows the Last Trump
In most of Europe, you get a hundred years or less, then they dig you up
and put the bones in an ossuary. In some countries, you just get a few
days on a platform while the birds recycle you as bird droppings.
Sorry, that may seem a bit too morbid for the time of year.
If you must preserve your bones intact, it seems the ossuary approach,
where bodies are kept on shelves in a tomb until they are
disarticulated, then stored in a smallish box is much preferable to
burying the whole body in a coffin. I wonder why it was abandoned? I
think it was common practice in the time of Christ.
On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 12:22:06 +0000, tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk>
wrote:
In article <spsdv1$ff8$1@dont-email.me>, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> >>scribeth thus09
John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
On 18/12/2021 10:40, Scott wrote:
What is the main fuse anyway? Is it fuse wire, or a cartridge or an >>>>> electronic device? I would have thought 100 amps would be far tooElectro mechanical circuit breakers are routinely available which can
much for an electonic device.
repeatedly and safely break current in the range of kiloamps.
This will safely deal with a fault current of 20 kA, though it does cost >>>> a bit more than a piece of wire.
https://www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/products/1557062-100a-sp-20ka-type-c- >>>mcb?msclkid=574ffec058ac1b5cf6109f01eff092c1&gclid=574ffec058ac1b5cf6109f01eff
2c1&gclsrc=3p.ds
The point about the incoming fuse is it is not supposed to rupture in >>>normal use. Having to bring the power company out to replace it at least >>>means a qualified person is on site to deal correctly with a persistent >>>fault. You’d not really want a householder repeatedly resetting such a >>>protection device.
The fuse is there for people like an old mate of mine who was daft
enough to put a very large pair of wire cutters through the live and >>neutral coming from the incomer unit to the distribution box! Quite what
he did that for god alone knows.
There was a very loud bang a very bright flash and it the force of the >>explosion threw him a few yards away. His wife hearing this happen and
him scream and his seemingly lifeless body on the floor had her phoning
999 for an ambulance.
The bloke from the power gently mentioned that she should get a proper >>spark's in to so the job whatever it was intended to be, the cutter
blades for the greater part vaporised!...
Who paid for the damage? Did it count as a public liability claim
against his home insurance?
If you must preserve your bones intact, it seems the ossuary approach, >where bodies are kept on shelves in a tomb until they are
disarticulated, then stored in a smallish box is much preferable to
burying the whole body in a coffin. I wonder why it was abandoned? I
think it was common practice in the time of Christ.
Umm have a look at this lot!!
Enjoy!..
<Https://motomom.tripod.com/index-3.html>
<https://life-globe.com/en/catacombs-capuchins-palermo/>
If you must preserve your bones intact, it seems the ossuary approach, where bodies are kept on shelves in a tomb until they are disarticulated, then stored
in a smallish box is much preferable
On 24/12/2021 11:10, John Williamson wrote:
On 24/12/2021 10:55, Max Demian wrote:
On 20/12/2021 10:06, Roderick Stewart wrote:
Depends on where you are. In the UK and some other countries, you andI wonder which is cheaper, an hour's worth of gas, or a small plot of
land for a hundred years?
A hundred years? Do you have inside information on the (much overdue)
Day of Judgment?
your family generally get tenancy until they build on it or the Man
blows the Last Trump
In most of Europe, you get a hundred years or less, then they dig you up and put the bones in an ossuary. In some countries, you just get a few
days on a platform while the birds recycle you as bird droppings.
Sorry, that may seem a bit too morbid for the time of year.
If you must preserve your bones intact, it seems the ossuary approach,
where bodies are kept on shelves in a tomb until they are
disarticulated, then stored in a smallish box is much preferable to
burying the whole body in a coffin. I wonder why it was abandoned? I
think it was common practice in the time of Christ.
Max Demian wrote:
If you must preserve your bones intact, it seems the ossuary approach,
where bodies are kept on shelves in a tomb until they are
disarticulated, then stored in a smallish box is much preferable
I was on a coach trip in Austria 40-odd years ago, which included a stop
at a roadside ossuary. They seemed to store everything by bone type,
e.g. pyramids of skulls, heaps of long bones i.e. femurs and tibias
sorted by length, then boxes of fingers and toes.
On 26/12/2021 09:06, Andy Burns wrote:
I was on a coach trip in Austria 40-odd years ago, which included a
stop at a roadside ossuary. They seemed to store everything by bone
type, e.g. pyramids of skulls, heaps of long bones i.e. femurs and
tibias sorted by length, then boxes of fingers and toes.
How are the angels going to sort out which bones belong to which on the
Last Trump?
Apparently there was a pre-Christian belief that the bones of the
ancestors could be used to make predictions.
Apparently there was a pre-Christian belief that the bones of the
ancestors could be used to make predictions. Various bones would be
removed from the ossuary and assembled in some way, then guidance would
be sought on such things as when would be the best time to plant the
crops that year.
It's a bit like a solicitor, where advice will cost you an arm and a
leg.
On 26/12/2021 10:49, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Apparently there was a pre-Christian belief that the bones of the
ancestors could be used to make predictions. Various bones would be removed from the ossuary and assembled in some way, then guidance would
be sought on such things as when would be the best time to plant the
crops that year.
It's a bit like a solicitor, where advice will cost you an arm and a
leg.
I've copied that to my solicitor!
On 26/12/2021 10:49, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Apparently there was a pre-Christian belief that the bones of the
ancestors could be used to make predictions. Various bones would be
removed from the ossuary and assembled in some way, then guidance would
be sought on such things as when would be the best time to plant the
crops that year.
It's a bit like a solicitor, where advice will cost you an arm and a
leg.
I've copied that to my solicitor!
On Sun, 26 Dec 2021 14:48:57 +0000, williamwright
<wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote:
On 26/12/2021 10:49, Liz Tuddenham wrote:The reply will cost you 15 minutes in fees.
Apparently there was a pre-Christian belief that the bones of the
ancestors could be used to make predictions. Various bones would be
removed from the ossuary and assembled in some way, then guidance would
be sought on such things as when would be the best time to plant the
crops that year.
It's a bit like a solicitor, where advice will cost you an arm and a
leg.
I've copied that to my solicitor!
On 17/12/2021 21:57, Rink wrote:
Where's 'here' ? Presumably not the UK ?
Here it is 35 or 40A, (the fuse I cannot reach),
The fuses I can reach are max 16A.
UK homes typically have 60A incoming fuses, newer properties 100 A,
though my parents' house built in 1966 has 100A fuses, and a dual phase supply (because it has electric storage heating)
Our domestic electrical circuits are based on a ring system, the sockets
are in a daisy chain that returns as a loop back to the fuse (or MCB) box.
Power sockets are rated at 13Amp load, the ring mains they are on are protected by 30 or 32A fuses.
Large appliances are fed by dedicated radial circuits (as you describe) either 16A (water heaters) or 32A (cookers etc)
You can easily pull a 10kW total load in most UK homes, though not all
on the same circuit
By the way, the UK is part of Europe, you are Europeans too :-)
Paul Ratcliffe <abuse@orac12.clara34.co56.uk78> wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 21:02:43 +0100, RinkBecause they’ve already used the comma as a decimal point.
<rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> wrote:
10.000 Watts is a lot more, I think...
It's about 50A, which cannot be used in a normal house (35A fuse).
And to produce 10kW ERP, you need a lot more power.
All high power mediumwave transmissions ended in The Netherlands
because of the energy bill. The told that it was about 100.000 euro
per year, which will be much more nowadays.
Why do you Europeans consistently mis-use the decimal point as
a thousands separator?
Rink <rink.hof.haalditmaarweg@planet.nl> wrote:
By the way, the UK is part of Europe, you are Europeans too :-)
Indeed, in the same sense that Taiwan is part of China.
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