• The changing face of cycling?

    From asrl07@yahoo.co.uk@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jan 4 14:13:55 2020
    Just before Christmas, I went to my LBS to order a frame bag, and I had a glance at the stock of new bikes. I immediately noticed that almost all of them were electric assist bikes, and they looked like decent ones where the motor assist goes through the
    drivetrain and gears rather than being in the front hub, which should make for superior hill climbing abiliy (and they are four figures in price). I enquired about the switch from conventional to electric bikes, and was told that this is the way the
    market has gone, they are selling very few non-electric bikes, and if they didn't stock electric bikes, they would go out of business. There used to be a bike shop which set up on the extreme east side of Horsham town centre which didn't last very long
    before it folded, so it sounds like there was some truth in what they said. Has anyone here noticed a similar trend in their area, that people are shunning conventional bikes for electric assist?

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  • From Zebee Johnstone@21:1/5 to asrl07@yahoo.co.uk on Tue Jan 7 00:28:58 2020
    In uk.rec.cycling.moderated on Sat, 4 Jan 2020 14:13:55 -0800 (PST) asrl07@yahoo.co.uk <asrl07@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
    Just before Christmas, I went to my LBS to order a frame bag, and I had a glance at the stock of new bikes. I immediately noticed that almost all of them were electric assist bikes, and they looked like decent ones where the motor assist goes through
    the drivetrain and gears rather than being in the front hub, which should make for superior hill climbing abiliy (and they are four figures in price). I enquired about the switch from conventional to electric bikes, and was told that this is the way the
    market has gone, they are selling very few non-electric bikes, and if they didn't stock electric bikes, they would go out of business. There used to be a bike shop which set up on the extreme east side of Horsham town centre which didn't last very long
    before it folded, so it sounds like there was some truth in what they said. Has anyone here noticed a similar trend in their area, that people are shunning conventional bikes for electric assist?

    The shop I got my trike electrified at has opened 3 new outlets in the
    last year, 2 of them within the last 6 months.

    One of those is aimed pretty well entirely at delivery riders, the
    others at commuters and MTB riders.

    I don't see a lot of bikes on my commute but I see more ebikes now
    than I did, not counting the delivery riders.

    Zebee

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  • From Timreason@21:1/5 to asrl07@yahoo.co.uk on Tue Jan 7 08:40:46 2020
    On 04/01/2020 22:13, asrl07@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
    Just before Christmas, I went to my LBS to order a frame bag, and I had a glance at the stock of new bikes. I immediately noticed that almost all of them were electric assist bikes, and they looked like decent ones where the motor assist goes through
    the drivetrain and gears rather than being in the front hub, which should make for superior hill climbing abiliy (and they are four figures in price). I enquired about the switch from conventional to electric bikes, and was told that this is the way the
    market has gone, they are selling very few non-electric bikes, and if they didn't stock electric bikes, they would go out of business. There used to be a bike shop which set up on the extreme east side of Horsham town centre which didn't last very long
    before it folded, so it sounds like there was some truth in what they said. Has anyone here noticed a similar trend in their area, that people are shunning conventional bikes for electric assist?


    It definitely is a trend around here (the Surrey Hills), which is
    perhaps not surprising as there are so many hills!

    I bought my first ebike in 2000, a Powabyke Classic, with a rear hub
    motor powered by three wheelchair-type lead acid batteries built into a removable case. The machine was heavy, what with the strong steel frame, batteries and metal geared motor. More like a moped than a bicycle, and
    I sometimes referred to it as 'My moped'. It was throttle-controlled
    rather than being a pedelec.

    I had the Powabyke for 15 years, but with issues of the spokes
    continually breaking, I eventually gave it up and got a Raleigh pedelec instead, but regrettably with a front hub motor. I wish now I'd gone for
    one with the bottom bracket mounted motor instead, since those are far
    superior to hub motors. Well worth the extra £700 or so.

    Back in 2000, it was very rare to see ebikes on the road, and I got used
    to people looking as I drifted uphill, sometimes without even pedalling
    at all. Now, they are commonplace.

    That said, I've always had non-powered cycles as well, and do most of my
    local journeys with them, choosing which to use according to
    circumstance. (A 'ratty' old hybrid, if I'm going to have to leave it
    chained to a lamppost, or a choice of Brompton or Dahon folder.)

    Why electric? Well, for me as a utility cyclist (now getting older) it
    is enjoyable to travel getting *some* exercise, without having gruelling
    grinds up hefty Surrey Hills. My guess is that's it. People now want an eco-friendly means of transport that is easy and convenient, but they
    don't want to arrive all knackered and sweaty at their destination. For
    utility cycling you want to be able to ride in fairly ordinary clothes
    and not have to carry a change of clothing everywhere, etc. Most
    cyclists, I suppose, are utility cyclists.

    Tim.

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  • From Roger Merriman@21:1/5 to asrl07@yahoo.co.uk on Tue Jan 7 22:09:52 2020
    <asrl07@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
    Just before Christmas, I went to my LBS to order a frame bag, and I had a glance at the stock of new bikes. I immediately noticed that almost all
    of them were electric assist bikes, and they looked like decent ones
    where the motor assist goes through the drivetrain and gears rather than being in the front hub, which should make for superior hill climbing
    abiliy (and they are four figures in price). I enquired about the switch
    from conventional to electric bikes, and was told that this is the way
    the market has gone, they are selling very few non-electric bikes, and if they didn't stock electric bikes, they would go out of business. There
    used to be a bike shop which set up on the extreme east side of Horsham
    town centre which didn't last very long before it folded, so it sounds
    like there was some truth in what they said. Has anyone here noticed a similar trend in their area, that people are shunning conventional bikes
    for electric assist?


    Even my little local bike shop sell a few E-Hybrid/MTB have to say don’t
    see that many in the flesh as you where but I’d say they are growing mostly on the commute, mostly cheaper/cheerful end of the market.

    Can’t say I’ve seen many at all out in the hills though.

    Roger Merriman

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  • From Kim Wall@21:1/5 to asrl07@yahoo.co.uk on Wed Jan 8 12:29:13 2020
    On 04/01/2020 22:13, asrl07@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
    Has anyone here noticed a similar trend in their area, that people
    are shunning conventional bikes for electric assist?

    I don't think that's the trend at all. Sure, a few existing cyclists
    are adding an electric cycle to their collection, perhaps for the
    commute or hauling cargo/children. A few more are switching to electric
    to enable themselves to continue cycling in spite of age/disability.
    But I reckon the majority of e-bike sales are to people who didn't cycle before, either because they couldn't, or because it was [perceived to
    be] too inconvenient.

    (There's a similar rise in non-street-legal[1] electric mobility:
    Scooters, skateboards and the like. These give a similar urban mobility
    to a bicycle, but tend to be more convenient to store and carry,
    especially in the student houses near me, which lack secure cycle storage.)

    It's a growth market, and it makes sense that the retailers are catering
    to it.

    It's all good.


    Kim.
    --
    [1] I think the rules need overhauling, so that such machines can be
    regulated, rather than banned.

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  • From Peter Clinch@21:1/5 to asrl07@yahoo.co.uk on Thu Jan 9 13:19:45 2020
    On 04/01/2020 22:13, asrl07@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
    Just before Christmas, I went to my LBS to order a frame bag, and I
    had a glance at the stock of new bikes. I immediately noticed that
    almost all of them were electric assist bikes... <snip>

    It's certainly a trend in NL, where e-bikes now outsell "normal" bikes.

    Of course, in NL the market is dominated by sensible bikes for utility transport use, while in the UK it's still far more sport-centric.
    However, IME UK shops are increasingly selling utility transport bikes,
    and I expect that segment to take on a significant e-bike component,
    especially with people taking up cycling /because/ they can now Laugh In
    The Face Of Hills and againsterly winds.

    In Scotland there's now a government provided interest free loan to
    spend up to £6K on e-bikes (per household, 2 capped at £3k each or 1
    cargo or adaptive capped at £6K), and I imagine this will boost things
    up here.

    In Diundee the most recent bike shop (though now well established for a
    few years) is "Electric Bikes Scotland". From chatting to the folk that
    run it, it seems to be doing pretty well, and I'm seeing more and more
    on my travels.

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
    NHS Tayside & Univ. of Dundee Ninewells Hospital & Med. School
    Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
    net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://medphys.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

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  • From Tosspot@21:1/5 to Peter Clinch on Sun Jan 12 16:17:52 2020
    On 09/01/2020 14:19, Peter Clinch wrote:
    On 04/01/2020 22:13, asrl07@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
    Just before Christmas, I went to my LBS to order a frame bag, and I
    had a glance at the stock of new bikes. I immediately noticed that
    almost all of them were electric assist bikes... <snip>

    It's certainly a trend in NL, where e-bikes now outsell "normal" bikes.

    Of course, in NL the market is dominated by sensible bikes for utility transport use, while in the UK it's still far more sport-centric.
    However, IME UK shops are increasingly selling utility transport bikes,
    and I expect that segment to take on a significant e-bike component, especially with people taking up cycling /because/ they can now Laugh In
    The Face Of Hills and againsterly winds.

    I've joined the growong list of people that *really* wish they'd taken
    the lectric option for the Bullitt

    http://www.larryvsharry.com/steps-ebullitt-technical-info/

    <snip>

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  • From Nick Maclaren@21:1/5 to p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk on Sun Jan 12 16:43:02 2020
    In article <h7onjgFdop4U1@mid.individual.net>,
    Peter Clinch <p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk> wrote:

    Of course, in NL the market is dominated by sensible bikes for utility >transport use, while in the UK it's still far more sport-centric.
    However, IME UK shops are increasingly selling utility transport bikes,
    and I expect that segment to take on a significant e-bike component, >especially with people taking up cycling /because/ they can now Laugh In
    The Face Of Hills and againsterly winds.

    It's worse than that :-( One of the consequences of the road-racers
    having almost eliminated utility cycling is that UK cycle sizes are
    now MUCH smaller that they used to be, and people are told that the
    correct sizing requires very bent knees and a half crouch. That has
    infected even specialist 'Dutch bike' shops, many of which do not
    stock anything above the medium sizes, and give similar advice.

    A hell of a lot of people can't handle that, and a hell of a lot more
    can't ride far or deliver much power, which leads to the very common
    assertions "I must just be one of the people who can't cycle" and that
    "I can't possibly cycle more than 2-3 miles". Ebikes may extend that a
    little, but not by much. Also, one of the main reasons that urban roads
    are dangerous for cycling is the very slow speed of cyclists; cars are
    much less likely to overtake dangerously if a cyclist is doing 20 MPH
    than if he is doing 10 MPH, and the former requires moderate power
    input from the rider from at least several Ebike systems, which is
    infeasible if his knees give him hell when doing that because they
    are too bent.



    Regards,
    Nick Maclaren.

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  • From Tosspot@21:1/5 to asrl07@yahoo.co.uk on Sun Jan 12 16:15:12 2020
    On 04/01/2020 23:13, asrl07@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
    Just before Christmas, I went to my LBS to order a frame bag, and I
    had a glance at the stock of new bikes. I immediately noticed that
    almost all of them were electric assist bikes, and they looked like
    decent ones where the motor assist goes through the drivetrain and
    gears rather than being in the front hub, which should make for
    superior hill climbing abiliy (and they are four figures in price). I enquired about the switch from conventional to electric bikes, and
    was told that this is the way the market has gone, they are selling
    very few non-electric bikes, and if they didn't stock electric bikes,
    they would go out of business. There used to be a bike shop which set
    up on the extreme east side of Horsham town centre which didn't last
    very long before it folded, so it sounds like there was some truth in
    what they said. Has anyone here noticed a similar trend in their
    area, that people are shunning conventional bikes for electric
    assist?

    Judging by a) the sheer number of the damn things, and b) the rate at
    which bike shops are expanding, I see the future as being electric.

    I'm quite fine with them, but in the 'ole' days there was an effective
    feedback loop with regard to speed and ability, eventually falling to
    zero. There isn't anymore and the fuckwittery I've seen on e-bikes,
    mainly ridden by the nouveau riche pensioners beggars belief.

    Still, Darwin will sort them out, as long as I'm not involved :-)

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  • From Nick Maclaren@21:1/5 to Nick Maclaren on Sun Jan 12 18:28:44 2020
    In article <qvfiam$7s5$1@dont-email.me>, Nick Maclaren <nmm1@cam.ac.uk> wrote: >... Also, one of the main reasons that urban roads
    are dangerous for cycling is the very slow speed of cyclists; cars are
    much less likely to overtake dangerously if a cyclist is doing 20 MPH
    than if he is doing 10 MPH, and the former requires moderate power
    input from the rider from at least several Ebike systems, which is
    infeasible if his knees give him hell when doing that because they
    are too bent.

    Sigh. With obvious 20 => 15 MPH correction, in the UK. My experience
    and observation are that, while 20 MPH is safer, 15 MPH is still MUCH
    better than 10 MPH, and the rider needs to expend more than 50 watts
    even with a 2.5x assist to maintain that up even slight hills or
    against headwinds.


    Regards,
    Nick Maclaren.

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  • From asrl07@yahoo.co.uk@21:1/5 to Nick Maclaren on Sun Jan 12 09:18:56 2020
    On Sunday, January 12, 2020 at 4:43:16 PM UTC, Nick Maclaren wrote:
    In article <h7onjgFdop4U1@mid.individual.net>,
    Peter Clinch <p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk> wrote:

    Of course, in NL the market is dominated by sensible bikes for utility >transport use, while in the UK it's still far more sport-centric.
    However, IME UK shops are increasingly selling utility transport bikes,
    and I expect that segment to take on a significant e-bike component, >especially with people taking up cycling /because/ they can now Laugh In >The Face Of Hills and againsterly winds.

    It's worse than that :-( One of the consequences of the road-racers
    having almost eliminated utility cycling is that UK cycle sizes are
    now MUCH smaller that they used to be, and people are told that the
    correct sizing requires very bent knees and a half crouch. That has
    infected even specialist 'Dutch bike' shops, many of which do not
    stock anything above the medium sizes, and give similar advice.

    A hell of a lot of people can't handle that, and a hell of a lot more
    can't ride far or deliver much power, which leads to the very common assertions "I must just be one of the people who can't cycle" and that
    "I can't possibly cycle more than 2-3 miles". Ebikes may extend that a little, but not by much. Also, one of the main reasons that urban roads
    are dangerous for cycling is the very slow speed of cyclists; cars are
    much less likely to overtake dangerously if a cyclist is doing 20 MPH
    than if he is doing 10 MPH, and the former requires moderate power
    input from the rider from at least several Ebike systems, which is
    infeasible if his knees give him hell when doing that because they
    are too bent.



    Regards,
    Nick Maclaren.

    Urban roads are not dangerous for cycling. This is one of the myths thats puts people off even trying utility cycling. They feel dangerous to some, but perception is not fact.

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  • From asrl07@yahoo.co.uk@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jan 12 09:24:11 2020
    In other news, I took a Birdy front wheel and new rim in for my LBS to do. They looked very reluctant, and said they could do it for me (I have had a good long term relationship with them), but they don't usually do servicing/repair now, unless it is for
    a bike they have sold. Unfortunately the new rim is a deep(er) rim, so the original spokes cannot be used. They took measurements of the hub and inner diameter of the rim, and advisem me on the correct size spokes to buy, which I have done. I will have a
    go at replacing the rim myself and if it takes too long to get it true, will take it to the LBS to finish off.

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  • From Tosspot@21:1/5 to asrl07@yahoo.co.uk on Mon Jan 13 08:12:22 2020
    On 12/01/2020 18:24, asrl07@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
    In other news, I took a Birdy front wheel and new rim in for my LBS
    to do. They looked very reluctant, and said they could do it for me
    (I have had a good long term relationship with them), but they don't
    usually do servicing/repair now, unless it is for a bike they have
    sold. Unfortunately the new rim is a deep(er) rim, so the original
    spokes cannot be used. They took measurements of the hub and inner
    diameter of the rim, and advisem me on the correct size spokes to
    buy, which I have done. I will have a go at replacing the rim myself
    and if it takes too long to get it true, will take it to the LBS to
    finish off.

    You should be fine, I've done a few small wheels (Bullit, Anthrotech)
    and they don't distort as easily as larger rims. Be careful of the
    spoke crossing. Having the cross over the valve *will* stop pump access :-(

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  • From Nick Maclaren@21:1/5 to asrl07@yahoo.co.uk on Mon Jan 13 11:03:15 2020
    In article <fc5d0c86-ce4e-4874-9640-9677c30747b8@googlegroups.com>,
    <asrl07@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

    Urban roads are not dangerous for cycling. This is one of the myths
    thats puts people off even trying utility cycling. They feel dangerous
    to some, but perception is not fact.

    I regret that they are, in a great many places. And, no, that's not
    just perception, and it's backed by the statistics.


    Regards,
    Nick Maclaren.

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  • From Adam Funk@21:1/5 to Nick Maclaren on Mon Jan 13 10:29:19 2020
    On 2020-01-12, Nick Maclaren wrote:

    In article <h7onjgFdop4U1@mid.individual.net>,
    Peter Clinch <p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk> wrote:

    Of course, in NL the market is dominated by sensible bikes for utility >>transport use, while in the UK it's still far more sport-centric.
    However, IME UK shops are increasingly selling utility transport bikes,
    and I expect that segment to take on a significant e-bike component, >>especially with people taking up cycling /because/ they can now Laugh In >>The Face Of Hills and againsterly winds.

    It's worse than that :-( One of the consequences of the road-racers
    having almost eliminated utility cycling is that UK cycle sizes are
    now MUCH smaller that they used to be, and people are told that the
    correct sizing requires very bent knees and a half crouch. That has
    infected even specialist 'Dutch bike' shops, many of which do not
    stock anything above the medium sizes, and give similar advice.

    Are you talking about frame size, wheel size, or both?


    A hell of a lot of people can't handle that, and a hell of a lot more
    can't ride far or deliver much power, which leads to the very common assertions "I must just be one of the people who can't cycle" and that
    "I can't possibly cycle more than 2-3 miles". Ebikes may extend that a little, but not by much. Also, one of the main reasons that urban roads
    are dangerous for cycling is the very slow speed of cyclists; cars are
    much less likely to overtake dangerously if a cyclist is doing 20 MPH
    than if he is doing 10 MPH, and the former requires moderate power
    input from the rider from at least several Ebike systems, which is
    infeasible if his knees give him hell when doing that because they
    are too bent.



    Regards,
    Nick Maclaren.

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  • From Nick Maclaren@21:1/5 to a24061a@ducksburg.com on Mon Jan 13 11:05:57 2020
    In article <vcttegxujc.ln2@news.ducksburg.com>,
    Adam Funk <a24061a@ducksburg.com> wrote:

    It's worse than that :-( One of the consequences of the road-racers
    having almost eliminated utility cycling is that UK cycle sizes are
    now MUCH smaller that they used to be, and people are told that the
    correct sizing requires very bent knees and a half crouch. That has
    infected even specialist 'Dutch bike' shops, many of which do not
    stock anything above the medium sizes, and give similar advice.

    Are you talking about frame size, wheel size, or both?

    Frame size, of course. And NOT just the seat height, but handlebar
    height and wheelbase.


    Regards,
    Nick Maclaren.

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  • From Peter Clinch@21:1/5 to Nick Maclaren on Mon Jan 13 10:12:40 2020
    On 12/01/2020 16:43, Nick Maclaren wrote:

    It's worse than that :-( One of the consequences of the road-racers
    having almost eliminated utility cycling is that UK cycle sizes are
    now MUCH smaller that they used to be, and people are told that the
    correct sizing requires very bent knees and a half crouch.

    I got my first not-hand-me-down bike when I was 12 or 13 (late 70s) and
    it was "he'll grow in to it" sized. I did grow in to it, but not having
    access to saddle height advice and having access to a set of spanners I
    always worked out the saddle height for myself, using a system of
    pushing it up until riding stopped being comfortable.
    Years later I came across the current general Rule Of Thumb advice for
    saddle height, and it just so happens that it works exactly the same as
    my suck-it-and-see approach always did. Heel on the pedal and my knees
    not quite locked out gives me a comfortable riding position, and it
    doesn't require "very bent knees" and whether or not it needs a crouch
    is entirely down to the handlebar style. If I'm on a hire bike in NL
    I'll set the saddle that way (and this is usally something like a
    Batavus Personal one-size-fits-most) and because of high, swpet back
    bars I'll be bolt upright but if I'm on something sporty with lower,
    more forward bars I'll be crouched. The frame size doesn't come in to it
    much on the bikes I usually ride (my own main steeds are a Brom and a
    Moulton TSR, both one-size-fits-most with a choice of bar options)

    Having said that, frames generally are smaller these days but that's
    because, thanks to Mike Burrows, they're compact and you can cover a
    greater range of rider sizes with one frame just by extending the
    seatpost and putting risers on the bars, much the same way as it works
    for folders and other small-wheelers.

    I've never come across any advice (including sports riding, and this
    comes from reading the BC sports coaching manuals as I'm a L2 coach)
    that encourages "very bent knees".
    I see no shortage of people with very bent knees, but this isn't because
    of advice from sports riders, it's because they want both feet down when they're stopped while sat on the saddle. And especially with an MTB,
    with its higher bottom bracket, that gets seats too low. Getting
    beginners (adults and children) to get their seats up (and this is
    speaking as a cycle trainer as well as occasional sport coach) to a
    height where their knees aren't stupidly bent is about confidence and
    their want to be able to put 2 feet down when they stop, it's not some
    plot by purveyors of sporting exotica. And in the years I've been doing
    it I have, using nothing but standard, conventional advice, tried to
    persuade dozens of folk to ride with a higher saddle, and *zero* to ride
    with a lower one, and in no cases did any of them say "but this is where
    I was advised to put the saddle", they'd all put it how they wanted it.

    One of the reasons I like my Moulton and Brom is I don't have to come
    off the saddle at junctions. On a Dutch cruiser with the seat set right
    for me, I often do.

    A hell of a lot of people can't handle that, and a hell of a lot more
    can't ride far or deliver much power, which leads to the very common assertions "I must just be one of the people who can't cycle" and that
    "I can't possibly cycle more than 2-3 miles".

    IME the real problem is changing habit, and the actual "reasons" given
    are rationalisations. Cyclists are an outgroup, people aren't queuing up
    to join it.

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
    NHS Tayside & Univ. of Dundee Ninewells Hospital & Med. School
    Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
    net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://medphys.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

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  • From Nick Maclaren@21:1/5 to p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk on Mon Jan 13 16:42:51 2020
    In article <h82u4pFhmvoU1@mid.individual.net>,
    Peter Clinch <p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk> wrote:

    Having said that, frames generally are smaller these days but that's
    because, thanks to Mike Burrows, they're compact and you can cover a
    greater range of rider sizes with one frame just by extending the
    seatpost and putting risers on the bars, much the same way as it works
    for folders and other small-wheelers.

    That's bollocks. Firstly, while small risers have become available
    in the past few years (and is IS a few), the shrinkage occurred LONG
    before that. I have tried to do such extensions in the past, several
    times, and failed fairly dismally each time - once, I even put one
    seat post into another! Secondly, that approach is CATASTROPHIC for
    handling and safety - as a Moulton engineer said to me (though it was
    no news), the wheelbase needs to increase pro rata to the CoG height
    (typically saddle height + some inches).

    A lesser, but still significant, problem is that modern cables are
    very often not long enough, which means that it's a much bigger job,
    and not something that most people are capable of doing. I can assure
    you that riding a bicycle with cables at full stretch is neither fun
    nor safe :-(

    The dire effect on braking efficiency is obvious, but only someone with
    very good balance and reactions can ride something like that with any
    degree of safety.

    I've never come across any advice (including sports riding, and this
    comes from reading the BC sports coaching manuals as I'm a L2 coach)
    that encourages "very bent knees".

    I have. Lots. And I have had shops refuse to set up test cycles for
    me, including my local recumbent dealer, telling me that I need to
    ride with my knees more bent. I have helped several people who have
    been told "no, your saddle is at the right height - you need to increase cadence to stop knee pain", when that made it worse, by advising them of
    the old rule, used when everyone cycled. Rather more said that the
    'expert' must be right, they must be "just one of the people who can't
    cycle" and gave up.

    I am talking about crotch to ground (with shoes on) plus 2-4", which
    means that most people can cycle without bending their knees too much.
    Yes, I do mean, that once they have been taught to cycle initially,
    the NEXT thing they need to be taught is to rise up out of the saddle
    when stopped, so that they can start raising their saddle to the right
    level for them.

    The reason is that, in all natural forms of locomotion (except perhaps sprinting), the knee is straight and relaxed with the ankle extended,
    and a lot of people need that to avoid knee damage and pain.


    Regards,
    Nick Maclaren.

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  • From Kerr-Mudd,John@21:1/5 to Nick Maclaren on Mon Jan 13 23:13:02 2020
    On Mon, 13 Jan 2020 16:42:51 GMT, nmm@wheeler.UUCP (Nick Maclaren) wrote:

    In article <h82u4pFhmvoU1@mid.individual.net>,
    Peter Clinch <p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk> wrote:

    Having said that, frames generally are smaller these days but that's >>because, thanks to Mike Burrows, they're compact and you can cover a >>greater range of rider sizes with one frame just by extending the
    seatpost and putting risers on the bars, much the same way as it works
    for folders and other small-wheelers.

    That's bollocks. Firstly, while small risers have become available
    in the past few years (and is IS a few), the shrinkage occurred LONG
    before that. I have tried to do such extensions in the past, several

    I dunno about your personal cirumstances, but to my knee, bending beyond
    90 is Plain Wrong. I've seen quite poorly setup person/cycle
    configurations struggling with the inefficient power to get up quite
    trivial hills. But they won't listen!

    --
    Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

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  • From Tosspot@21:1/5 to John on Tue Jan 14 07:24:30 2020
    On 14/01/2020 00:13, Kerr-Mudd,John wrote:
    On Mon, 13 Jan 2020 16:42:51 GMT, nmm@wheeler.UUCP (Nick Maclaren) wrote:

    In article <h82u4pFhmvoU1@mid.individual.net>,
    Peter Clinch <p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk> wrote:

    Having said that, frames generally are smaller these days but that's
    because, thanks to Mike Burrows, they're compact and you can cover a
    greater range of rider sizes with one frame just by extending the
    seatpost and putting risers on the bars, much the same way as it works
    for folders and other small-wheelers.

    That's bollocks. Firstly, while small risers have become available
    in the past few years (and is IS a few), the shrinkage occurred LONG
    before that. I have tried to do such extensions in the past, several

    I dunno about your personal cirumstances, but to my knee, bending beyond
    90 is Plain Wrong. I've seen quite poorly setup person/cycle
    configurations struggling with the inefficient power to get up quite
    trivial hills. But they won't listen!

    Didn't it use to be 105-110% of inside leg? My basic start is heel on
    pedal at bottom of travel. It rarely moves much from that.

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  • From Zebee Johnstone@21:1/5 to Tosspot on Tue Jan 14 09:19:16 2020
    In uk.rec.cycling.moderated on Tue, 14 Jan 2020 07:24:30 +0100
    Tosspot <Frank.Leake@gmail.com> wrote:

    Didn't it use to be 105-110% of inside leg? My basic start is heel on
    pedal at bottom of travel. It rarely moves much from that.

    Heel on pedal at bottom of travel was how I was told to do it.

    I have it longer on the Brompton cos that just feels better.

    People I have talked to who have bent knees always say they do it so
    they can get feet down when they stop. I tell them they don't stop
    often so better to set the saddle so riding is comfortable... Some are
    too scared to but the one guy who did it immediately was boggled at
    just how much better it was.

    Zebee

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  • From Nick Maclaren@21:1/5 to Frank.Leake@gmail.com on Tue Jan 14 10:45:49 2020
    In article <h_-dnfMjFcEDw4DDnZ2dnUU78XWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
    Tosspot <Frank.Leake@gmail.com> wrote:
    On 14/01/2020 00:13, Kerr-Mudd,John wrote:

    Having said that, frames generally are smaller these days but that's
    because, thanks to Mike Burrows, they're compact and you can cover a
    greater range of rider sizes with one frame just by extending the
    seatpost and putting risers on the bars, much the same way as it works >>>> for folders and other small-wheelers.

    That's bollocks. Firstly, while small risers have become available
    in the past few years (and is IS a few), the shrinkage occurred LONG
    before that. I have tried to do such extensions in the past, several

    I dunno about your personal cirumstances, but to my knee, bending beyond
    90 is Plain Wrong. I've seen quite poorly setup person/cycle
    configurations struggling with the inefficient power to get up quite
    trivial hills. But they won't listen!

    My personal circumstances are damage from school, meaning that I have
    trouble with sustained bending beyond about 50 degrees, but a LOT of
    people can't handle as much as 90 degrees.

    Didn't it use to be 105-110% of inside leg? My basic start is heel on
    pedal at bottom of travel. It rarely moves much from that.

    Towards the top of that, yes; that's the same as inside leg plus 2-4".
    I have to add 5", because of my knee damage, but that's unusual. You
    are using the modern length and, as I said, a lot of people's knees
    can't handle that. The old rule was to start as you ride, and raise
    the saddle until you were ankling effectively. With the pedals under
    the balls of the feet, of course, as in the propulsive phase of all the
    forms of locomotion we have evolved to do.


    However, that's only the knee issue. The other two issues are equally
    serious.


    Regards,
    Nick Maclaren.

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  • From Peter Clinch@21:1/5 to Nick Maclaren on Tue Jan 14 08:42:02 2020
    On 13/01/2020 16:42, Nick Maclaren wrote:
    In article <h82u4pFhmvoU1@mid.individual.net>,
    Peter Clinch <p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk> wrote:

    Having said that, frames generally are smaller these days but that's
    because, thanks to Mike Burrows, they're compact and you can cover a
    greater range of rider sizes with one frame just by extending the
    seatpost and putting risers on the bars, much the same way as it works
    for folders and other small-wheelers.

    That's bollocks. Firstly, while small risers have become available
    in the past few years (and is IS a few), the shrinkage occurred LONG
    before that. I have tried to do such extensions in the past, several
    times, and failed fairly dismally each time - once, I even put one
    seat post into another! Secondly, that approach is CATASTROPHIC for
    handling and safety - as a Moulton engineer said to me (though it was
    no news), the wheelbase needs to increase pro rata to the CoG height (typically saddle height + some inches).

    And yet, it's easy to buy a bike with swept back bars and an upright
    seating position.

    And yet people well over 6' can happily ride Bromptons, even the older
    short wheel base ones like mine, with nothing more than a telescopic
    seat post and the P or H extended bar styles.

    A lesser, but still significant, problem is that modern cables are
    very often not long enough, which means that it's a much bigger job,
    and not something that most people are capable of doing. I can assure
    you that riding a bicycle with cables at full stretch is neither fun
    nor safe :-(

    I used to ride a Thorn Me'n'U2 kiddyback triplet with about 60 Kg of
    stokers behind me on a 3m long bike. It had standard V-brakes and it
    was no problem getting the cables, and it was no problem riding in
    control including a daily does of trying to break the sound barrier down
    a big hill on the school run with a roundabout at the bottom I *had* to
    be prepared to stop at. I'm not sure how you manage to contrive such
    terrible danger and steering problems, but I really think you're more at
    the exception end of the scale than the rule end.

    The dire effect on braking efficiency is obvious, but only someone with
    very good balance and reactions can ride something like that with any
    degree of safety.

    I am not exceptional as a bike handler or as a balancer. Never crashed
    the Thorn, with or without stokers.

    I've never come across any advice (including sports riding, and this
    comes from reading the BC sports coaching manuals as I'm a L2 coach)
    that encourages "very bent knees".

    I have. Lots. And I have had shops refuse to set up test cycles for
    me, including my local recumbent dealer, telling me that I need to
    ride with my knees more bent. I have helped several people who have
    been told "no, your saddle is at the right height - you need to increase cadence to stop knee pain", when that made it worse, by advising them of
    the old rule, used when everyone cycled. Rather more said that the
    'expert' must be right, they must be "just one of the people who can't
    cycle" and gave up.

    Well, maybe you have, but I've been teaching people formally for 15
    years and never come across this, and amongst my fellow coaches and
    trainers we routinely come across saddles we want to push up and have a
    hard time persuading people to try for no other reason than folk worried
    about getting feet down when stopped. On a teaching session with lots
    of riders there isn't time for personal experimentation so we just use
    the "rule of thumb", though in practice this is *always* raising the
    saddle and it's very hard to persuade quite a lot of beginners to take a
    saddle that high, no matter how much we point out it will make their
    pedalling much easier. This is in-built resistance from clients, not a
    devious bike-fitting plot.

    Also amongst my fellow coaches and trainers, saddle height is regarded
    as something where a rider needs to experiment to find what's best for
    them. This is obvious from nothing more than the different degree of
    ankling people use and the different sizes of feet.

    I *have* seen bike-fitting places who seem absolutely sure that their
    Magic Instructions work best for 100% of clients, though not being party
    to the small print I don't know how flexible they are and in any case
    these are very much not operations used by people giving cycling a try
    and thinking they can't go more than a couple of miles. But even if you
    take the standard "rule of thumb" and never go anywhere from that, that
    doesn't give "very bent knees" and it does allow a fully straightened
    knee while in the saddle at the option of the rider by dropping the heel
    a little.

    You do seem to bring out the worst in people when discussion turns to
    saddle height: given my experience, including 15 years of teaching, is
    entirely "start here, then experiment to find what works best for you" I
    never cease to be amazed at the degree to which you seem to uncover such
    rigid opposition.

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
    NHS Tayside & Univ. of Dundee Ninewells Hospital & Med. School
    Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
    net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://medphys.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

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  • From Rob Morley@21:1/5 to Tosspot on Tue Jan 21 03:23:00 2020
    On Sun, 12 Jan 2020 16:17:52 +0100
    Tosspot <Frank.Leake@gmail.com> wrote:

    I've joined the growong list of people that *really* wish they'd
    taken the lectric option for the Bullitt

    http://www.larryvsharry.com/steps-ebullitt-technical-info/

    Can't you just slap a mid-drive kit in the one you have?

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  • From Tosspot@21:1/5 to Rob Morley on Tue Jan 21 08:00:45 2020
    On 21/01/2020 04:23, Rob Morley wrote:
    On Sun, 12 Jan 2020 16:17:52 +0100
    Tosspot <Frank.Leake@gmail.com> wrote:

    I've joined the growong list of people that *really* wish they'd
    taken the lectric option for the Bullitt

    http://www.larryvsharry.com/steps-ebullitt-technical-info/

    Can't you just slap a mid-drive kit in the one you have?

    I never considered that. I shall have a look. It's not like I'm
    Jonesing for carry space for batteries :-)

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  • From Rob Morley@21:1/5 to Tosspot on Tue Jan 21 03:48:10 2020
    On Sun, 12 Jan 2020 16:15:12 +0100
    Tosspot <Frank.Leake@gmail.com> wrote:

    the fuckwittery I've seen
    on e-bikes, mainly ridden by the nouveau riche pensioners beggars
    belief.

    Still, Darwin will sort them out, as long as I'm not involved :-)

    As pensioners aren't renowned for their breeding abilities I'm afraid
    it's too late for Mr. Darwin

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  • From Peter Ford@21:1/5 to Nick Maclaren on Mon Feb 10 01:29:06 2020
    On Sunday, 12 January 2020 18:29:09 UTC, Nick Maclaren wrote:
    In article <qvfiam$7s5$1@dont-email.me>, Nick Maclaren <nmm1@cam.ac.uk> wrote:
    ... Also, one of the main reasons that urban roads
    are dangerous for cycling is the very slow speed of cyclists; cars are
    much less likely to overtake dangerously if a cyclist is doing 20 MPH
    than if he is doing 10 MPH, and the former requires moderate power
    input from the rider from at least several Ebike systems, which is >infeasible if his knees give him hell when doing that because they
    are too bent.

    Sigh. With obvious 20 => 15 MPH correction, in the UK. My experience
    and observation are that, while 20 MPH is safer, 15 MPH is still MUCH
    better than 10 MPH, and the rider needs to expend more than 50 watts
    even with a 2.5x assist to maintain that up even slight hills or
    against headwinds.


    Regards,
    Nick Maclaren.

    That model of motor power vs rider power isn't something I've come across, on a couple of different types of e-bike motor. We used front hub motors on cargo bikes (finding that a bottom bracket motor just destroyed chains/other components, presumably due
    to the large torques that motor + rider could apply at low speeds), and the motor happily provided lots of power up to the cutoff speed, and then none. So on those bikes, 15 mph required 0 watts from the rider, 16 mph required what felt like 300 W (not
    very aerodynamic with a large metal box on the back... ), and 20 mph was beyond my capabilities without a tailwind.

    I would agree that on busier roads, 15 mph felt a lot safer (similar to the car-bike interactions from riding a normal bike at 20 mph) than the 10 mph I would tend to do on a non-electric cargo bike, which did make me feel a lot lot vulnerable.

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  • From Nick Maclaren@21:1/5 to p3t3r.f0rd@gmail.com on Wed Feb 12 20:00:15 2020
    In article <a9e042a0-d3d8-4386-b9ee-2e7f163e57ac@googlegroups.com>,
    Peter Ford <p3t3r.f0rd@gmail.com> wrote:

    Sigh. With obvious 20 => 15 MPH correction, in the UK. My experience
    and observation are that, while 20 MPH is safer, 15 MPH is still MUCH
    better than 10 MPH, and the rider needs to expend more than 50 watts
    even with a 2.5x assist to maintain that up even slight hills or
    against headwinds.

    That model of motor power vs rider power isn't something I've come
    across, on a couple of different types of e-bike motor. ...

    Both Shimano and Bosch SAY they work like that. When I am closer
    to buying one, I need to test whether they will enable me to get up
    a steep hill. I am not totally confident of that. They CERTAINLY won't
    enable me to do so at speed!

    An all-up weight of 140 Kg, a bottom gear of 20", a cadence of 60 RPM,
    and a 25% hill is a torque of 87 nm and a power of 544 watts. I have
    heard stories that they overheat when working hard at low cadences,
    which makes dropping to 40 RPM a bit iffy.


    Regards,
    Nick Maclaren.

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  • From Zebee Johnstone@21:1/5 to Nick Maclaren on Wed Feb 12 20:21:20 2020
    In uk.rec.cycling.moderated on Wed, 12 Feb 2020 20:00:15 -0000 (UTC)
    Nick Maclaren <nmm@wheeler.UUCP> wrote:

    An all-up weight of 140 Kg, a bottom gear of 20", a cadence of 60 RPM,
    and a 25% hill is a torque of 87 nm and a power of 544 watts. I have
    heard stories that they overheat when working hard at low cadences,
    which makes dropping to 40 RPM a bit iffy.

    THe Bionx doesn't like low cadence. I don't know if it was designed
    that way or if it is a limitation of torque sensing setups.

    If I do 70-80 up the hill it gives me heaps of help, if I grind up the
    hill it gives me a lot less. Which is depressing. Luckily it is old
    enough to have throttle as well so I can use that to add more go. If
    I use throttle it gets me up a 1 in 5 with maybe a bit less weight all
    up (say 120) than you.

    Zebee

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  • From Kim Wall@21:1/5 to Peter Ford on Thu Feb 13 00:55:43 2020
    On 10/02/2020 09:29, Peter Ford wrote:
    That model of motor power vs rider power isn't something I've
    come across, on a couple of different types of e-bike motor. We used
    front hub motors on cargo bikes (finding that a bottom bracket motor
    just destroyed chains/other components, presumably due to the large
    torques that motor + rider could apply at low speeds), and the motor
    happily provided lots of power up to the cutoff speed, and then none. So
    on those bikes, 15 mph required 0 watts from the rider, 16 mph required
    what felt like 300 W (not very aerodynamic with a large metal box on the back... ), and 20 mph was beyond my capabilities without a tailwind.

    I think that's the difference between simply sensing that the cranks are turning (as most low-end systems do), and torque-sensing systems, which (mostly) provide power proportionally to the rider's input. (Note that
    both can be combined with a power level setting at the handlebars.)
    Torque sensing is more complex (read: expensive), but gives a more
    authentic 'cycling' experience. Conversely, a non-torque-sensing system
    may actually be preferable for getting a sharp boost of power to help
    the rider get above stall speed quickly when hauling cargo.


    I would agree that on busier roads, 15 mph felt a lot safer (similar
    to the car-bike interactions from riding a normal bike at 20 mph)
    than the 10 mph I would tend to do on a non-electric cargo bike,
    which did make me feel a lot lot vulnerable.

    IIRC that (speed differential being the main factor in harmonious
    road-sharing with motorists) was one of the findings of Rachel Aldred's
    Near Miss Project research.


    Kim.
    --

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  • From Kim Wall@21:1/5 to Zebee Johnstone on Thu Feb 13 00:43:41 2020
    On 12/02/2020 20:21, Zebee Johnstone wrote:
    In uk.rec.cycling.moderated on Wed, 12 Feb 2020 20:00:15 -0000 (UTC)
    Nick Maclaren <nmm@wheeler.UUCP> wrote:

    An all-up weight of 140 Kg, a bottom gear of 20", a cadence of 60 RPM,
    and a 25% hill is a torque of 87 nm and a power of 544 watts. I have
    heard stories that they overheat when working hard at low cadences,
    which makes dropping to 40 RPM a bit iffy.

    THe Bionx doesn't like low cadence. I don't know if it was designed
    that way or if it is a limitation of torque sensing setups.

    AIUI, in an attempt to do the Right Thing, a torque-sensing system will
    respond to both high torque and high cadence. As usual, the devil is in
    the details, and if you find yourself spending a lot of time somewhere
    in the middle, it can be rather frustrating.

    Most electric assist users I encounter tend to be mashers, either
    through disability or general muggle-cyclist pedalling style, and seem
    to get on okay. I find my partner's Falco system doesn't do much in
    response to my gear-down-and-pedal-at-~90rpm climbing style - if I want
    it to help, I either have to stay in a high gear, or spin like a maniac.
    Fortunately, it has a setting where the motor gives full power
    (assuming crank rotation, up to the speed/power limit), in the style of
    a non-torque-sensing system, which I use to good effect for occasional cargo-hauling.


    Kim.
    --

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  • From Nick Maclaren@21:1/5 to zebeej@gmail.com on Thu Feb 13 09:27:41 2020
    In article <slrnr48nhv.i37.zebeej@gmail.com>,
    Zebee Johnstone <zebeej@gmail.com> wrote:

    An all-up weight of 140 Kg, a bottom gear of 20", a cadence of 60 RPM,
    and a 25% hill is a torque of 87 nm and a power of 544 watts. I have
    heard stories that they overheat when working hard at low cadences,
    which makes dropping to 40 RPM a bit iffy.

    THe Bionx doesn't like low cadence. I don't know if it was designed
    that way or if it is a limitation of torque sensing setups.

    From what I read, most electric assist motors are designed for high
    cadences, which is an engineering imbecility, as almost all such riders
    are racers and similar, and ride at above 15 MPH. Almost all ordinary
    riders (the ones who want assistance) ride at 60 RPM or below, for very
    good reasons.

    If I do 70-80 up the hill it gives me heaps of help, if I grind up the
    hill it gives me a lot less. Which is depressing. Luckily it is old
    enough to have throttle as well so I can use that to add more go. If
    I use throttle it gets me up a 1 in 5 with maybe a bit less weight all
    up (say 120) than you.

    My day trip weight is about 120 Kg, but I tour with 135-140 Kg, and
    the UK has lots of short stretches of above 25%.


    Regards,
    Nick Maclaren.

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  • From Roger Merriman@21:1/5 to Nick Maclaren on Thu Feb 13 23:24:08 2020
    Nick Maclaren <nmm@wheeler.UUCP> wrote:
    In article <slrnr48nhv.i37.zebeej@gmail.com>,
    Zebee Johnstone <zebeej@gmail.com> wrote:

    An all-up weight of 140 Kg, a bottom gear of 20", a cadence of 60 RPM,
    and a 25% hill is a torque of 87 nm and a power of 544 watts. I have
    heard stories that they overheat when working hard at low cadences,
    which makes dropping to 40 RPM a bit iffy.

    THe Bionx doesn't like low cadence. I don't know if it was designed
    that way or if it is a limitation of torque sensing setups.

    From what I read, most electric assist motors are designed for high
    cadences, which is an engineering imbecility, as almost all such riders
    are racers and similar, and ride at above 15 MPH. Almost all ordinary
    riders (the ones who want assistance) ride at 60 RPM or below, for very
    good reasons.

    I’d assume that would change, since EMTB are taking off, and thus more
    folks are climbing what would be unclimbable by mere mortals and by its
    nature we talking steep, fiddly low speed high torque etc.

    If I do 70-80 up the hill it gives me heaps of help, if I grind up the
    hill it gives me a lot less. Which is depressing. Luckily it is old
    enough to have throttle as well so I can use that to add more go. If
    I use throttle it gets me up a 1 in 5 with maybe a bit less weight all
    up (say 120) than you.

    My day trip weight is about 120 Kg, but I tour with 135-140 Kg, and
    the UK has lots of short stretches of above 25%.


    Regards,
    Nick Maclaren.


    Roger Merriman

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