• My experience of the Alfine 11 DI2

    From asrl07@yahoo.co.uk@21:1/5 to All on Sun Aug 2 12:21:23 2020
    Back in 2015 when I was nearly killed in a road collision, I got a custom built new bike at the end of the year to replace the one that was hit. I was aiming for a bike which was low maintenance and could easily withstand the rigours of commuting in all
    weathers on anything from main roads to narrow badly surfaced country lanes. I had a Surly frame, horizontal dropouts, an Alfine 11 DI2, disk brakes, Marathon Plus tyres, and a hub dynamo with a decent front and rear light (B&M).

    The DI2 has been wonderful, when it works. It changes gear very smoothly, the bike shop routed the cabling inside the frame so very little cabling on the outside to get snagged on anything. No cables to periodically adjust. All that is needed is to
    recharge the battery occasionally and change the hub oil once every year or two. The other thing I liked was that getting the rear wheel off is trivial, all that is needed is to unplug the cable from the motor (just make sure you don't fiddle with the
    gears when unplugged).

    As I say, it works beautifully most of the time. Problems have occurred with the snap ring which holds the rear sprocket on the hub. That has come off several times, always when I am a couple of miles from home, and it is a bastard to get on (it was
    initially for me anyway). After this happened several times, I did learn a technique for getting it back on, but sometimes found when everything had been put back the gearing indexing had gone haywire, and I couldn't get it re-indexed properly, so had to
    take it to the bike shop to get it fixed. This got tedious after the fourth time as the bike shop is nearly four miles away and necessitates putting the bike in the car and transporting it there (fortunately it will go in without any dismantling with the
    back seats down). This problem has ceased now as the bike shop told me the snap ring design has changed, and this has made it more secure on the hub.

    This year I have had more drawn out problems. A week after lockdown started, the electronics completely died. It was still rideable but I was stuck in a too-low gear most of the time. Back to the shop. I didn't see the bike again for nearly two months.
    They had to go through all the connections (which are inside the frame) to find where the fault was. They eventually traced it to the junction box and they ordered in and fitted a new one and I think a new cable. Electronics back to life, I took the bike
    home and found the same old problem with the indexing being out. This obviouisly happened when the electronics died and I was trying to change gear and it took me a few seconds to realise nothing was happening. I had to take it back and get them to sort
    it out.

    Another three weeks without the bike, and they couldn't get it working properly, they discovered the motor had failed (worn out they said), so that was £130 to replace (inc labour). I am disappointed it only lasted five years given I don't exactly
    hammer the bike or the gearing when I am riding.

    To summarise, it is a double edged sword. Brilliant when it works, but when it fails, it fails badly to the point where I am unlikely to be able to fix it myself. If I ever got another bike or converted my folder to hub gears, I would be hesitant to go
    for the electronic version again. Cables do have their disadvantages, but a bit of fine tuning every now and again isn't that much of a chore, and if a cable gearing system fails, I can probably work out how to replace the cable if required.

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  • From Nick Maclaren@21:1/5 to All on Mon Aug 3 08:05:13 2020
    Thank you for that. I have heard that the Alfine 11 is a lot more
    reliable than it used to be (not hard!), but hadn't had reports of
    the DI2. I now know to avoid them like COVID-19!


    Regards,
    Nick Maclaren.

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  • From Sam Wilson@21:1/5 to asrl07@yahoo.co.uk on Sun Aug 2 22:46:00 2020
    <asrl07@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
    Back in 2015 when I was nearly killed in a road collision, I got a custom built new bike at the end of the year to replace the one that was hit. I
    was aiming for a bike which was low maintenance and could easily
    withstand the rigours of commuting in all weathers on anything from main roads to narrow badly surfaced country lanes. I had a Surly frame,
    horizontal dropouts, an Alfine 11 DI2, disk brakes, Marathon Plus tyres,
    and a hub dynamo with a decent front and rear light (B&M).

    The DI2 has been wonderful, when it works. It changes gear very smoothly,
    the bike shop routed the cabling inside the frame so very little cabling
    on the outside to get snagged on anything. No cables to periodically
    adjust. All that is needed is to recharge the battery occasionally and
    change the hub oil once every year or two. The other thing I liked was
    that getting the rear wheel off is trivial, all that is needed is to
    unplug the cable from the motor (just make sure you don't fiddle with the gears when unplugged).

    As I say, it works beautifully most of the time. Problems have occurred
    with the snap ring which holds the rear sprocket on the hub. That has
    come off several times, always when I am a couple of miles from home, and
    it is a bastard to get on (it was initially for me anyway). After this happened several times, I did learn a technique for getting it back on,
    but sometimes found when everything had been put back the gearing
    indexing had gone haywire, and I couldn't get it re-indexed properly, so
    had to take it to the bike shop to get it fixed. This got tedious after
    the fourth time as the bike shop is nearly four miles away and
    necessitates putting the bike in the car and transporting it there (fortunately it will go in without any dismantling with the back seats
    down). This problem has ceased now as the bike shop told me the snap ring design has changed, and this has made it more secure on the hub.

    This year I have had more drawn out problems. A week after lockdown
    started, the electronics completely died. It was still rideable but I was stuck in a too-low gear most of the time. Back to the shop. I didn't see
    the bike again for nearly two months. They had to go through all the connections (which are inside the frame) to find where the fault was.
    They eventually traced it to the junction box and they ordered in and
    fitted a new one and I think a new cable. Electronics back to life, I
    took the bike home and found the same old problem with the indexing being out. This obviouisly happened when the electronics died and I was trying
    to change gear and it took me a few seconds to realise nothing was
    happening. I had to take it back and get them to sort it out.

    Another three weeks without the bike, and they couldn't get it working properly, they discovered the motor had failed (worn out they said), so
    that was £130 to replace (inc labour). I am disappointed it only lasted
    five years given I don't exactly hammer the bike or the gearing when I am riding.

    To summarise, it is a double edged sword. Brilliant when it works, but
    when it fails, it fails badly to the point where I am unlikely to be able
    to fix it myself. If I ever got another bike or converted my folder to
    hub gears, I would be hesitant to go for the electronic version again.
    Cables do have their disadvantages, but a bit of fine tuning every now
    and again isn't that much of a chore, and if a cable gearing system
    fails, I can probably work out how to replace the cable if required.


    Clarke’s third law applies.

    Sam

    --
    The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
    Spit the dummy to reply

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  • From Hauke Fath@21:1/5 to asrl07@yahoo.co.uk on Mon Aug 3 19:14:17 2020
    <asrl07@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

    I had a Surly frame, horizontal dropouts, an Alfine 11 DI2, disk brakes, Marathon Plus tyres, and a hub dynamo with a decent front and rear light (B&M).

    The DI2 has been wonderful, when it works.

    I have to admit I had to use a search engine on the Alfine part -
    haven't really kept up with recent developments, have I?

    Anyway, <https://bikeshed.johnhoogstrate.nl/bicycle/drivetrain/shimano_alfine_inter_11/>
    looks very complete, so I would like to share it.

    Cheerio,
    Hauke

    --
    Now without signature.

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  • From Ian Jackson@21:1/5 to asrl07@yahoo.co.uk on Tue Aug 4 12:22:54 2020
    In article <79e463f4-a2c9-4095-bbae-c76e581f9d59o@googlegroups.com>,
    <asrl07@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
    [tale of woe]

    Top hit on duckduckgo for `alfine 11 di2' is a video titled
    "long term reviee [sic]" whose ddg-cached summary says

    Long term review of Shimano's Alfine 11 speed hub with di2
    electronic shifting. Performance excellent but reliability problems
    with oil leaks and electrical...

    --
    Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> These opinions are my own.

    Pronouns: they/he. If I emailed you from @fyvzl.net or @evade.org.uk,
    that is a private address which bypasses my fierce spamfilter.

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  • From Nick Maclaren@21:1/5 to Ian Jackson on Wed Aug 5 08:41:35 2020
    In article <sax*dfLYx@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
    Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
    In article <79e463f4-a2c9-4095-bbae-c76e581f9d59o@googlegroups.com>,
    <asrl07@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
    [tale of woe]

    Top hit on duckduckgo for `alfine 11 di2' is a video titled
    "long term reviee [sic]" whose ddg-cached summary says

    Long term review of Shimano's Alfine 11 speed hub with di2
    electronic shifting. Performance excellent but reliability problems
    with oil leaks and electrical...

    To be fair, it has been reported that Shimano have improved it very considerably, and it's now much better. It's certainly been fitted
    on a lot of cycles, is used quite extensively, and doesn't produce
    the stream of complaints that it used to. But it's not something I
    would buy, if I could avoid it.

    Hauke's link indicated dire efficiency, too.


    Regards,
    Nick Maclaren.

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  • From asrl07@yahoo.co.uk@21:1/5 to Ian Jackson on Wed Aug 5 01:42:23 2020
    On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:19:53 AM UTC+1, Ian Jackson wrote:
    In article <79e463f4-a2c9-4095-bbae-c76e581f9d59o@googlegroups.com>,
    <asrl07@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
    [tale of woe]

    Top hit on duckduckgo for `alfine 11 di2' is a video titled
    "long term reviee [sic]" whose ddg-cached summary says

    Long term review of Shimano's Alfine 11 speed hub with di2
    electronic shifting. Performance excellent but reliability problems
    with oil leaks and electrical...

    --
    Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> These opinions are my own.

    Pronouns: they/he. If I emailed you from @fyvzl.net or @evade.org.uk,
    that is a private address which bypasses my fierce spamfilter.

    I'd forgotten to add in my review that I did have a problem with an oil leak (it dripped on the floor when the bike was hung overnight, fortunately I have laminate flooring), that resulted in the hub being replaced under warranty.

    I have gone as far as looking into whether a Rohloff could be installed, but I'm not sure about that, as I think there are a limited number of frames comaptible with Rohloff, and I'm not sure if Surly Straggler is one of them.

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  • From Zebee Johnstone@21:1/5 to All on Sat Aug 8 10:32:45 2020
    In uk.rec.cycling.moderated on Wed, 5 Aug 2020 01:42:23 -0700 (PDT)

    I have gone as far as looking into whether a Rohloff could be installed, but I'm not sure about that, as I think there are a limited number of frames comaptible with Rohloff, and I'm not sure if Surly Straggler is one of them.

    Every time I think of a Rohloff I remember that it's gripshift. And
    while there are hacks available they are just that...

    Mind you, no idea how a 14 speed barend would work!

    Zebee
    - who is on the 2nd Alfine 8 after the first died of salt water
    ingestion. Some 5 years after said ingestion.

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  • From Kim Wall@21:1/5 to Zebee Johnstone on Sat Aug 8 13:26:43 2020
    On 08/08/2020 11:32, Zebee Johnstone wrote:
    Every time I think of a Rohloff I remember that it's gripshift. And
    while there are hacks available they are just that...

    Mind you, no idea how a 14 speed barend would work!

    I think the Kindernay approach has promise: Do all the indexing stuff at
    the hub end, with the shifters (one for up, one for down) just toggling
    it up and down by some number of steps at a time, rather than covering
    the whole range of travel. Currently they only have trigger shifters,
    but I suppose a bar-end might be practical along the same lines.


    Kim.
    --

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  • From Tosspot@21:1/5 to asrl07@yahoo.co.uk on Sun Aug 9 21:44:17 2020
    On 02/08/2020 21:21, asrl07@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

    <snip aggravation>

    To summarise, it is a double edged sword. Brilliant when it works,
    but when it fails, it fails badly to the point where I am unlikely to
    be able to fix it myself. If I ever got another bike or converted my
    folder to hub gears, I would be hesitant to go for the electronic
    version again. Cables do have their disadvantages, but a bit of fine
    tuning every now and again isn't that much of a chore, and if a cable
    gearing system fails, I can probably work out how to replace the
    cable if required.

    I run the Alfine 11 with the under bar trigger shifters, and it is now
    in "out of my cold dead hands" territory. The lever is a thumb and
    finger shifter both having a two gear long pull if you need to shift
    gears faster. The hub must have 10-12,000 km on it now and seems to
    work fine, although reading around it might be coming to end of life.
    Oil change every year takes 30 minutes. The weak spot is actually the
    clear plastic on the shifter which doesn't like sun/UV. It
    cracks/crazes to a milky white after 2-3 years, but is at least a
    replaceable part.

    Electrickery has it's place (mechanical speed/odometers anyone[1]?) but
    for gear shifting I remain unconvinced. It's an option for the Rohloff,
    and since I can't get anywhere near reasonable under bar shifters I keep looking at it, but it's a) expensive and b) I'm not sure I'd trust it.

    [1] https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wiivilik-Mechanical-Connection-Speedometer-Accessories/dp/B07ZVKR17F

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  • From Tosspot@21:1/5 to asrl07@yahoo.co.uk on Sun Aug 9 22:00:01 2020
    On 05/08/2020 10:42, asrl07@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
    On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 1:19:53 AM UTC+1, Ian Jackson wrote:
    In article
    <79e463f4-a2c9-4095-bbae-c76e581f9d59o@googlegroups.com>,
    <asrl07@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
    [tale of woe]

    Top hit on duckduckgo for `alfine 11 di2' is a video titled "long
    term reviee [sic]" whose ddg-cached summary says

    Long term review of Shimano's Alfine 11 speed hub with di2
    electronic shifting. Performance excellent but reliability
    problems with oil leaks and electrical...

    -- Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> These opinions
    are my own.

    Pronouns: they/he. If I emailed you from @fyvzl.net or
    @evade.org.uk, that is a private address which bypasses my fierce
    spamfilter.

    I'd forgotten to add in my review that I did have a problem with an
    oil leak (it dripped on the floor when the bike was hung overnight, fortunately I have laminate flooring), that resulted in the hub being replaced under warranty.

    They don't have a good seal, in fact I don't think they have one at all, because every time I overfill one it leaks, but every oil change, the
    right amount comes out. In short, the bike must stay upright if left
    for extended periods, say 24 hours. I've wondered if a bit of PTFE
    would improve it, but I can't be bothered.

    I have gone as far as looking into whether a Rohloff could be
    installed, but I'm not sure about that, as I think there are a
    limited number of frames comaptible with Rohloff, and I'm not sure if
    Surly Straggler is one of them.

    Should be fine. I run both mine with a Singleator in pushup
    configuration and it's fit and forget. Yes you might need a but of zip
    tie buggery to route both cables, but that is always the case and can be
    done neatly.

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  • From Tosspot@21:1/5 to Kim Wall on Sun Aug 9 22:01:20 2020
    On 08/08/2020 14:26, Kim Wall wrote:
    On 08/08/2020 11:32, Zebee Johnstone wrote:
    Every time I think of a Rohloff I remember that it's gripshift.
    And while there are hacks available they are just that...

    Mind you, no idea how a 14 speed barend would work!

    I think the Kindernay approach has promise: Do all the indexing stuff
    at the hub end, with the shifters (one for up, one for down) just
    toggling it up and down by some number of steps at a time, rather
    than covering the whole range of travel. Currently they only have
    trigger shifters, but I suppose a bar-end might be practical along
    the same lines.

    If I was doing it all over again, which I am *NOT* I'd take a long hard
    look at the Kindernay. Friendly folks as well.

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  • From Adam Lea@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jan 13 02:53:02 2021
    It keeps on letting me down. More leakage from the hub. Back to the LBS who put a new seal on. Got the bike back Christmas eve before travelling to stay with my father (social bubble) up north over Christmas. Came back to find a tablespoon of oil on my
    lounge floor and the electronics had died. Back to the LBS who have had it for a week and a half. Here is what they said:

    "We have been looking at your bike over the last few days to try and sort out both the leaking and the Di2 issue.

    I believe both issues are connected. The main A seal we changed last time the bike was in has stopped almost all leaking from the hub but whilst it was leaking it seems a pretty large amount of oil made its way into the motor. I think this is the oil
    that has been dripping slowly rather than directly from the hub. We have managed to get most of the oil from the motor using compressed air and now when connected the electronics seem to be working fine. We have run an error check using the Shimano
    software too and all seems fine.

    To double check if the hub is leaking we have left it since Saturday on its side to put as much pressure on the drive side seals as possible and have now seen some oil coming from the part of the hub which actuates the gear change. Sadly the seals for
    this section of the hub are not available separately, but only as a whole unit. Owing to the fact it took 3 days for the oil to make its way out with the hub on its side I don't think this leak is anything like the one you had before.

    Now the electric system is working and with the hub assembled on the bike with the oil for the most part removed from the motor the dripping seems to have stopped. The bike is ready to go and I think we will just have to see how it goes. But if it does
    start leaking again it's really a new hub I'm afraid."

    I'm now thinking I should have gone for the cable version, despite that potentially having its own issues.

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  • From Rob Morley@21:1/5 to Adam Lea on Sun Jan 17 17:24:18 2021
    On Wed, 13 Jan 2021 02:53:02 -0800 (PST)
    Adam Lea <asrl07@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:


    I'm now thinking I should have gone for the cable version, despite
    that potentially having its own issues.

    But if you can figure out the storage orientation best suited to
    minimising seepage, and attack it with an air gun occasionally, you have
    a fully functional hub. This clever technology makes our lives better,
    thank you Shimano.

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  • From Tosspot@21:1/5 to Adam Lea on Sat Jan 16 11:38:00 2021
    On 13/01/2021 11:53, Adam Lea wrote:
    It keeps on letting me down. More leakage from the hub. Back to the
    LBS who put a new seal on. Got the bike back Christmas eve before
    travelling to stay with my father (social bubble) up north over
    Christmas. Came back to find a tablespoon of oil on my lounge floor
    and the electronics had died. Back to the LBS who have had it for a
    week and a half. Here is what they said:

    "We have been looking at your bike over the last few days to try and
    sort out both the leaking and the Di2 issue.

    I believe both issues are connected. The main A seal we changed last
    time the bike was in has stopped almost all leaking from the hub but
    whilst it was leaking it seems a pretty large amount of oil made its
    way into the motor. I think this is the oil that has been dripping
    slowly rather than directly from the hub. We have managed to get most
    of the oil from the motor using compressed air and now when connected
    the electronics seem to be working fine. We have run an error check
    using the Shimano software too and all seems fine.

    To double check if the hub is leaking we have left it since Saturday
    on its side to put as much pressure on the drive side seals as
    possible and have now seen some oil coming from the part of the hub
    which actuates the gear change. Sadly the seals for this section of
    the hub are not available separately, but only as a whole unit. Owing
    to the fact it took 3 days for the oil to make its way out with the
    hub on its side I don't think this leak is anything like the one you
    had before.

    Now the electric system is working and with the hub assembled on the
    bike with the oil for the most part removed from the motor the
    dripping seems to have stopped. The bike is ready to go and I think
    we will just have to see how it goes. But if it does start leaking
    again it's really a new hub I'm afraid."

    I'm now thinking I should have gone for the cable version, despite
    that potentially having its own issues.

    I have no experience with the Di2 per se, but many miles on an Alfine 11 SG7001. The drive side seems to be a dust cap. If the SG7001 has the
    correct amount of oil in it, it doesn't leak, but on it's side it will,
    at least the two I've owned have from new.

    This is a warranty issue?

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  • From Adam Lea@21:1/5 to Rob Morley on Sun Jan 17 09:38:20 2021
    On Sunday, January 17, 2021 at 5:24:34 PM UTC, Rob Morley wrote:
    On Wed, 13 Jan 2021 02:53:02 -0800 (PST)
    Adam Lea <asr...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:


    I'm now thinking I should have gone for the cable version, despite
    that potentially having its own issues.
    But if you can figure out the storage orientation best suited to
    minimising seepage, and attack it with an air gun occasionally, you have
    a fully functional hub. This clever technology makes our lives better,
    thank you Shimano.

    I have since discovered that if I position the rear wheel so the nut is facing upward, there is no leaking, although there is no evidence oil is leaking from there.

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  • From Kerr-Mudd,John@21:1/5 to Rob Morley on Mon Jan 18 15:08:23 2021
    On Sun, 17 Jan 2021 17:24:18 GMT, Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> wrote:

    On Wed, 13 Jan 2021 02:53:02 -0800 (PST)
    Adam Lea <asrl07@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:


    I'm now thinking I should have gone for the cable version, despite
    that potentially having its own issues.

    But if you can figure out the storage orientation best suited to
    minimising seepage, and attack it with an air gun occasionally, you have

    I misread this approach; I'd have thought anger-management classes and
    careful maintenance would be better!

    a fully functional hub. This clever technology makes our lives better,
    thank you Shimano.


    Not so much to check with a wire, IMO. YMOV.


    --
    Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

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