Has there ever been a more laughably pointless patent?
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/toyota/357350/toyota-patents-simulated-manual-gearbox-electric-cars
Tim
Has there ever been a more laughably pointless patent?
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/toyota/357350/toyota-patents-simulated-manual-gearbox-electric-cars
Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:
Has there ever been a more laughably pointless patent?
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/toyota/357350/toyota-patents-simulated-manual-gearbox-electric-cars
Despite autos being commonplace in the US, there's a minority who yearn for
a 'stick shift'. Presumably this is a relatively cheap way to give them
what they want (a more engaged driving experience) without having to re-engineer very much of the car. It can also be a feature you can selectively enable - use auto for your commute to work, manual at a track day.
You could imagine it being another feature that you select when ordering
your new car. And perhaps the parts might easily be swapped over, so you could add this 'manual gearbox' to your existing car for a couple of hours
in the workshop.
It's not a meaningful performance feature, but then people pay good money
for having exhausts that sound a particular way and they aren't performance features either.
Theo
Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:
Has there ever been a more laughably pointless patent?
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/toyota/357350/toyota-patents-simulated-manual-gearbox-electric-cars
Despite autos being commonplace in the US, there's a minority who yearn for
a 'stick shift'. Presumably this is a relatively cheap way to give them
what they want (a more engaged driving experience) without having to re-engineer very much of the car. It can also be a feature you can selectively enable - use auto for your commute to work, manual at a track day.
You could imagine it being another feature that you select when ordering
your new car. And perhaps the parts might easily be swapped over, so you could add this 'manual gearbox' to your existing car for a couple of hours
in the workshop.
It's not a meaningful performance feature, but then people pay good money
for having exhausts that sound a particular way and they aren't performance features either.
In article <I7i*RtZGy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:
Has there ever been a more laughably pointless patent?
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/toyota/357350/toyota-patents-simulated-manual-gearbox-electric-cars
Despite autos being commonplace in the US, there's a minority who yearn for >> a 'stick shift'. Presumably this is a relatively cheap way to give them
what they want (a more engaged driving experience) without having to
re-engineer very much of the car. It can also be a feature you can
selectively enable - use auto for your commute to work, manual at a track
day.
You could imagine it being another feature that you select when ordering
your new car. And perhaps the parts might easily be swapped over, so you
could add this 'manual gearbox' to your existing car for a couple of hours >> in the workshop.
It's not a meaningful performance feature, but then people pay good money
for having exhausts that sound a particular way and they aren't performance >> features either.
I remember one CVT equipped car (rubber band drive) who used software to
make it work like fixed gears.
I've never heard of any auto that can be a true manual complete with
clutch pedal.
In article <I7i*RtZGy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:
Has there ever been a more laughably pointless patent?
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/toyota/357350/toyota-patents-simulated-manual-gearbox-electric-cars
Despite autos being commonplace in the US, there's a minority who yearn for >> a 'stick shift'. Presumably this is a relatively cheap way to give them
what they want (a more engaged driving experience) without having to
re-engineer very much of the car. It can also be a feature you can
selectively enable - use auto for your commute to work, manual at a track
day.
You could imagine it being another feature that you select when ordering
your new car. And perhaps the parts might easily be swapped over, so you
could add this 'manual gearbox' to your existing car for a couple of hours >> in the workshop.
It's not a meaningful performance feature, but then people pay good money
for having exhausts that sound a particular way and they aren't performance >> features either.
I remember one CVT equipped car (rubber band drive) who used software to
make it work like fixed gears.
I've never heard of any auto that can be a true manual complete with
clutch pedal. Being able to select a gear manually on an auto is as old as autos themselves.
Dave Plowman (News) <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
In article <I7i*RtZGy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:
Has there ever been a more laughably pointless patent?
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/toyota/357350/toyota-patents-simulated-manual-gearbox-electric-cars
Despite autos being commonplace in the US, there's a minority who yearn for >>> a 'stick shift'. Presumably this is a relatively cheap way to give them >>> what they want (a more engaged driving experience) without having to
re-engineer very much of the car. It can also be a feature you can
selectively enable - use auto for your commute to work, manual at a track >>> day.
You could imagine it being another feature that you select when ordering >>> your new car. And perhaps the parts might easily be swapped over, so you >>> could add this 'manual gearbox' to your existing car for a couple of hours >>> in the workshop.
It's not a meaningful performance feature, but then people pay good money >>> for having exhausts that sound a particular way and they aren't performance >>> features either.
I remember one CVT equipped car (rubber band drive) who used software to
make it work like fixed gears.
I've never heard of any auto that can be a true manual complete with
clutch pedal.
But it’s neither an auto or a manual. It’s a fixed gear with a cunning way
to cripple the power of the motor to simulate the poor power
characteristics of an ICE producing a “virtual gearbox”
It’s mind-bogglingly stupid.
In article <I7i*RtZGy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:
Has there ever been a more laughably pointless patent?
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/toyota/357350/toyota-patents-simulated-manual-gearbox-electric-cars
Despite autos being commonplace in the US, there's a minority who yearn for >> a 'stick shift'. Presumably this is a relatively cheap way to give them
what they want (a more engaged driving experience) without having to
re-engineer very much of the car. It can also be a feature you can
selectively enable - use auto for your commute to work, manual at a track
day.
You could imagine it being another feature that you select when ordering
your new car. And perhaps the parts might easily be swapped over, so you
could add this 'manual gearbox' to your existing car for a couple of hours >> in the workshop.
It's not a meaningful performance feature, but then people pay good money
for having exhausts that sound a particular way and they aren't performance >> features either.
I remember one CVT equipped car (rubber band drive) who used software to
make it work like fixed gears.
I've never heard of any auto that can be a true manual complete with
clutch pedal. Being able to select a gear manually on an auto is as old as autos themselves.
I remember one CVT equipped car (rubber band drive) who used software to make it work like fixed gears.
Im curious, which car was that?
I've never heard of any auto that can be a true manual complete with
clutch pedal. Being able to select a gear manually on an auto is as
old as autos themselves.
Fiat made an automatic system ( note quotes) which was used on the
Ducato ( maybe other vehicles). I believe it had a clutch * which was electronically operated. I only ever saw bad things written about it, at least in motorhomes. Fortunately I read them before buying a MH with
one.
* a clutch much the same as a normal one - flywheel, clutch plate,
clutch cover/pressure plate, release bearing, etc. I assume an actuator operating the lever on the release bearing.
I remember one CVT equipped car (rubber band drive) who used software to
make it work like fixed gears.
I’m curious, which car was that?
But it’s neither an auto or a manual. It’s a fixed gear with a cunning way
to cripple the power of the motor to simulate the poor power
characteristics of an ICE producing a “virtual gearbox”
It’s mind-bogglingly stupid.
On 16/02/2022 19:27, Brian wrote:
I remember one CVT equipped car (rubber band drive) who used software to >>> make it work like fixed gears.
I’m curious, which car was that?
The Honda Jazz Hybrid (chain, rather than rubber band, but still
continously variable) has a pair of paddles that let you select seven different ratios, although the software won't let you be silly.
In article <sujj7t$lnp$1@dont-email.me>,
Brian <noinv@lid.org> wrote:
I remember one CVT equipped car (rubber band drive) who used software to >>> make it work like fixed gears.
I‘m curious, which car was that?
Sorry, can't remember. Not really of much interest to me. Although I've
heard some complain about the way a CVT can stay at near constant engine
revs when accelerating. But whether this was after buying one an living
with it for a while, I dunno.
Has there ever been a more laughably pointless patent?
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/toyota/357350/toyota-patents-simulated-manual-gearbox-electric-cars
Tim
On 17/02/2022 15:28, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article <sujj7t$lnp$1@dont-email.me>,
Brian <noinv@lid.org> wrote:
I remember one CVT equipped car (rubber band drive) who used software to >>> make it work like fixed gears.
Im curious, which car was that?
Sorry, can't remember. Not really of much interest to me. Although I've heard some complain about the way a CVT can stay at near constant engine revs when accelerating. But whether this was after buying one an living with it for a while, I dunno.
They all do it and as far as I know none of them have a ludicrous mode
that Coulthard tested in Williams F1 car and instantly knocked several seconds off his lap times.
Maximum acceleration is at maximum power. Peak torque corresponds to
peak acceleration in a fixed gear but the acceleration at peak power in
the gear below that is far higher.
So when you floor the accelerator pedal what should a CVT do? You have
sent a signal that you want everything it's got. It should give you
every thing it's got. That means winding the engine speed up to peak
power rpm and then continuously adjusting the gear ratio to hold it at
that speed.
A normal manual gearbox just gives you what the engine can deliver at
the current engine speed and you have to sit and wait for revs to rise
as the car accelerates and flatly farts. If you do this at 45 mph in top
gear you can be waiting a very long time for the car to get a move on.
If you want more you have to predict the need and change gear. Rule of
thumb if in doubt change down 2.
So there were 2 objections to CVT gearboxes.
First there was lag while the engine wound up to speed. The extra power
the engine made is initially used to speed up the engine and not the
car. The fact that with a normal gearbox you should be changing gear
during this time just isn't allowed for.
Second. Once wound up, the peak engine power is delivered to the wheels,
like all the hounds of hell let lose. It didn't change down 2 gears, it
went down 3.3. "Well I just wanted to go a little faster, I didn't want
Mach 2!". The only way to ask for "a little faster" is a smaller input
on the throttle, instead of mash it and lift off when you have enough.
So all CVT on the market pretend to be fixed ratio gear boxes. That
means the belt/chain/disc is always running on the same parts of the cones/toroid. That makes tracks and the CVT fails. There's not supposed
to be any contact as the motion is transferred by a non Newtonian fluid
that becomes solid like silly putty when under shear loads.
In article <suoa8n$1jg2$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
Peter Hill <skyshac@yahoo.com> wrote:
So all CVT on the market pretend to be fixed ratio gear boxes. That
means the belt/chain/disc is always running on the same parts of the cones/toroid. That makes tracks and the CVT fails. There's not supposed
to be any contact as the motion is transferred by a non Newtonian fluid that becomes solid like silly putty when under shear loads.
Are there any CVTs still available new? Do remember the Focus one had a
short life so much in demand as a used spare from a crashed car.
I think the market for CVTs is shrinking though - being nibbled away by hybrids and EVs. Seems like it'll become more niche, perhaps at the
small and cheap end of the market.
In article <eRd*3jdHy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
I think the market for CVTs is shrinking though - being nibbled away by hybrids and EVs. Seems like it'll become more niche, perhaps at the
small and cheap end of the market.
I'd say the costs of a robotised manual box/auto clutch must have come
down, as they are appearing in cheaper cars now. And those boxes should be
as long lasting as a manual, and as efficient, so no MPG penalty.
In article <suoa8n$1jg2$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
Peter Hill <skyshac@yahoo.com> wrote:
On 17/02/2022 15:28, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article <sujj7t$lnp$1@dont-email.me>,
Brian <noinv@lid.org> wrote:
I remember one CVT equipped car (rubber band drive) who used software to >>>>> make it work like fixed gears.
Im curious, which car was that?
Sorry, can't remember. Not really of much interest to me. Although I've
heard some complain about the way a CVT can stay at near constant engine >>> revs when accelerating. But whether this was after buying one an living
with it for a while, I dunno.
They all do it and as far as I know none of them have a ludicrous mode
that Coulthard tested in Williams F1 car and instantly knocked several
seconds off his lap times.
Maximum acceleration is at maximum power. Peak torque corresponds to
peak acceleration in a fixed gear but the acceleration at peak power in
the gear below that is far higher.
So when you floor the accelerator pedal what should a CVT do? You have
sent a signal that you want everything it's got. It should give you
every thing it's got. That means winding the engine speed up to peak
power rpm and then continuously adjusting the gear ratio to hold it at
that speed.
A normal manual gearbox just gives you what the engine can deliver at
the current engine speed and you have to sit and wait for revs to rise
as the car accelerates and flatly farts. If you do this at 45 mph in top
gear you can be waiting a very long time for the car to get a move on.
If you want more you have to predict the need and change gear. Rule of
thumb if in doubt change down 2.
So there were 2 objections to CVT gearboxes.
First there was lag while the engine wound up to speed. The extra power
the engine made is initially used to speed up the engine and not the
car. The fact that with a normal gearbox you should be changing gear
during this time just isn't allowed for.
Second. Once wound up, the peak engine power is delivered to the wheels,
like all the hounds of hell let lose. It didn't change down 2 gears, it
went down 3.3. "Well I just wanted to go a little faster, I didn't want
Mach 2!". The only way to ask for "a little faster" is a smaller input
on the throttle, instead of mash it and lift off when you have enough.
So all CVT on the market pretend to be fixed ratio gear boxes. That
means the belt/chain/disc is always running on the same parts of the
cones/toroid. That makes tracks and the CVT fails. There's not supposed
to be any contact as the motion is transferred by a non Newtonian fluid
that becomes solid like silly putty when under shear loads.
The only CVT I've driven was an early DAF van. Not belonging to me, I'd
add. Noisy at the best of times. And incredibly wearing if attempting to
keep up with the traffic.
Are there any CVTs still available new? Do remember the Focus one had a
short life so much in demand as a used spare from a crashed car.
Has there ever been a more laughably pointless patent?
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/toyota/357350/toyota-patents-simulated-manual-gearbox-electric-cars
Tim
On 15/02/2022 21:42, Tim+ wrote:
Has there ever been a more laughably pointless patent?
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/toyota/357350/toyota-patents-simulated-manual-gearbox-electric-cars
Tim
Dunno. Rental market?
Some folks that instantly hire cars don't have time to learn a new
method for driving, or any other thing beyond basic controls.
There used to be this thing about the standard of training, that in an emergency it would (with insurance, license and the owner's permission) provide you the skills to move / drive someone else's car?
How would you quickly move a strange car like an EV from, say, the path
of an oncoming train*, or something laden with technological iDrive complexity?
* Answer, That's a promised fireball - run away as quickly as you can!
Some folks that instantly hire cars don't have time to learn a new
method for driving, or any other thing beyond basic controls.
There used to be this thing about the standard of training, that in an emergency it would (with insurance, license and the owner's permission) provide you the skills to move / drive someone else's car?
How would you quickly move a strange car like an EV from, say, the path
of an oncoming train*, or something laden with technological iDrive complexity?
Even on a bog standard ICE hire car I've been caught out by things like
how to engage reverse.
In article <pLf*2zEHy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
Even on a bog standard ICE hire car I've been caught out by things like
how to engage reverse.
I remember picking up a hire car many years ago. In the dark. Middle of winter in the North of Scotland. Couldn't find the light switch. Went back
to the hire desk at the airport, but they'd gone home. Before the days of mobile phones.
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