In article <7b56ae83-ccd7-13d9-6ca8-908352104615@outlook.com>,
Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:

On 30/09/2020 11:17, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article <rl1bd3$116d$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
Peter Hill <skyshac@yahoo.com> wrote:

Then there's the problem of silver chloride batteries (Ford?), not to be >> confused with "silver tec". They have a higher voltage than regular lead >> acid so can produce over voltage which frys a lead acid cars
electronics. Or the silver chloride system gets dragged down to the lead >> acid voltage and when the alternator runs it feeds excessive current
though the regulator in an attempt to bring the voltage up, killing the
alternator.

Think you'll find that is complete marketing bollox. ;-)

https://www.yuasa.co.uk/info/technical/silver-calcium-batteries/

If it's "complete marketing bollox" I wonder why Yuasa do *not* say in
plain words that cars specifying silver calcium do not have different charging voltages, and AgCa batteries do not last longer in *them* on
average than conventional lead batteries would. It struck me as
carefully drafted to say in effect "you can use our batteries" without
saying anything factually inaccurate (and hence actionable).

They say one of their replacement batteries will have a life as least as
good as a genuine Ford spare...

The life of any lead acid is very dependant on use. Let it go flat, and
its life will be reduced. So very difficult to give any warranty on how
long it should last. Other than the nominal 3 years or whatever.

If these vehicles run at a different voltage, I take it they have special
bulbs and so on?

--
*To be intoxicated is to feel sophisticated, but not be able to say it.

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 30/09/2020 14:53, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article <7b56ae83-ccd7-13d9-6ca8-908352104615@outlook.com>,
Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:

On 30/09/2020 11:17, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article <rl1bd3$116d$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
Peter Hill <skyshac@yahoo.com> wrote:

Then there's the problem of silver chloride batteries (Ford?), not to be >>>> confused with "silver tec". They have a higher voltage than regular lead >>>> acid so can produce over voltage which frys a lead acid cars
electronics. Or the silver chloride system gets dragged down to the lead >>>> acid voltage and when the alternator runs it feeds excessive current
though the regulator in an attempt to bring the voltage up, killing the >>>> alternator.

Think you'll find that is complete marketing bollox. ;-)

https://www.yuasa.co.uk/info/technical/silver-calcium-batteries/

If it's "complete marketing bollox" I wonder why Yuasa do *not* say in
plain words that cars specifying silver calcium do not have different
charging voltages, and AgCa batteries do not last longer in *them* on
average than conventional lead batteries would. It struck me as
carefully drafted to say in effect "you can use our batteries" without
saying anything factually inaccurate (and hence actionable).

They say one of their replacement batteries will have a life as least as
good as a genuine Ford spare...

The life of any lead acid is very dependant on use. Let it go flat, and
its life will be reduced. So very difficult to give any warranty on how
long it should last. Other than the nominal 3 years or whatever.

If these vehicles run at a different voltage, I take it they have special bulbs and so on?

Last time I looked the UN/ECE regs still just specified bulbs for a
nominal 12V for testing at 13.2V so an awful lot of cars run them at over-voltage. There's nothing special for our Focus and Fiesta - though
I do tend to spend the often trivial extra amount for what claim to be
bulbs better able to withstand over-voltage.


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 30/09/2020 14:53, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article <7b56ae83-ccd7-13d9-6ca8-908352104615@outlook.com>,
Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:

On 30/09/2020 11:17, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article <rl1bd3$116d$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
Peter Hill <skyshac@yahoo.com> wrote:

Then there's the problem of silver chloride batteries (Ford?), not to be >>>> confused with "silver tec". They have a higher voltage than regular lead >>>> acid so can produce over voltage which frys a lead acid cars
electronics. Or the silver chloride system gets dragged down to the lead >>>> acid voltage and when the alternator runs it feeds excessive current
though the regulator in an attempt to bring the voltage up, killing the >>>> alternator.

Think you'll find that is complete marketing bollox. ;-)

https://www.yuasa.co.uk/info/technical/silver-calcium-batteries/

If it's "complete marketing bollox" I wonder why Yuasa do *not* say in
plain words that cars specifying silver calcium do not have different
charging voltages, and AgCa batteries do not last longer in *them* on
average than conventional lead batteries would. It struck me as
carefully drafted to say in effect "you can use our batteries" without
saying anything factually inaccurate (and hence actionable).

They say one of their replacement batteries will have a life as least as
good as a genuine Ford spare...

The life of any lead acid is very dependant on use. Let it go flat, and
its life will be reduced. So very difficult to give any warranty on how
long it should last. Other than the nominal 3 years or whatever.

If these vehicles run at a different voltage, I take it they have special bulbs and so on?

From your link to Yuasa on Ford's silver calcium, battery.

"Charge Voltage tolerance increased from 14.4V to 14.8V"

0.4V increase in charging system voltage from 14.4V to 14.8V isn't going
to make much difference to a filament bulb.

But it could make a difference to electronically regulated systems. eg
14.4V regulated to 12V means it has to drop 2.4V, with 14.8V it's
dropping 2.8V a 16.6% increase in power dissipated in the voltage regulator.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In article <rl45bj$oet$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
Peter Hill <skyshac@yahoo.com> wrote:

But it could make a difference to electronically regulated systems. eg
14.4V regulated to 12V means it has to drop 2.4V, with 14.8V it's
dropping 2.8V a 16.6% increase in power dissipated in the voltage
regulator.

Car voltage regs tend to be rated to 40v. Rather higher than 'ordinary'
ones.

--
*If only you'd use your powers for good instead of evil.

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 01/10/2020 09:52:10, Peter Hill wrote:

On 30/09/2020 14:53, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article <7b56ae83-ccd7-13d9-6ca8-908352104615@outlook.com>,
    Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:

On 30/09/2020 11:17, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article <rl1bd3$116d$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
     Peter Hill <skyshac@yahoo.com> wrote:

Then there's the problem of silver chloride batteries (Ford?), not
to be
confused with "silver tec". They have a higher voltage than regular
lead
acid so can produce over voltage which frys a lead acid cars
electronics. Or the silver chloride system gets dragged down to the
lead
acid voltage and when the alternator runs it feeds excessive current >>>>> though the regulator in an attempt to bring the voltage up, killing
the
alternator.

Think you'll find that is complete marketing bollox. ;-)

https://www.yuasa.co.uk/info/technical/silver-calcium-batteries/

If it's "complete marketing bollox" I wonder why Yuasa do *not* say in
plain words that cars specifying silver calcium do not have different
charging voltages, and AgCa batteries do not last longer in *them* on
average than conventional lead batteries would. It struck me as
carefully drafted to say in effect "you can use our batteries" without
saying anything factually inaccurate (and hence actionable).

They say one of their replacement batteries will have a life as least as
good as a genuine Ford spare...

The life of any lead acid is very dependant on use. Let it go flat, and
its life will be reduced. So very difficult to give any warranty on how
long it should last.  Other than the nominal 3 years or whatever.

If these vehicles run at a different voltage, I take it they have special
bulbs and so on?

From your link to Yuasa on Ford's silver calcium, battery.

"Charge Voltage tolerance increased from 14.4V to 14.8V"

0.4V increase in charging system voltage from 14.4V to 14.8V isn't going
to make much difference to a filament bulb.

3% increase will make a 10% increase in light output and probably
reduce it's life by 30%.
http://www.lamptech.co.uk/Documents/IN%20Voltage.htm

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 11:45:53 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

Neighbour knocked on the door. Trying to start another neighbour's car by >pushing it.

I've not seen anyone doing that for *years*. ;-)

Asked to borrow my jump start pack as the car now down the
road.

Given the cost of a car and it's general use and upkeep, why don't all
people that own cars also own a Lithium jump start packs (and a foot
pump, jump leads etc) even if they don't use them themselves? It's
like buying a dinghy and not getting some buoyancy aids and a bailer?


Ok, I 'don't mind' lending a good neighbour a foot pump, battery
charger or jump leads (and more often than not, doing the job myself),
it's just when they come and ask to borrow it again a few days later
... what am I, the local tool loan club?

I am a fond believer of the old 'Never a lender or borrower be' (not
the same as hiring something) and by lending stuff 'You have
everything to lose and nothing to gain' by doing so (as you find out
when they give you back something that's broken and either don't say
so or offer to replace / repair it).

However, there are a select group of like minded people I will / do -
lend / borrow with because we understand the deal ... you break /
damage / lose it you replace it.

I have this with a good neighbour and, because I needed to do it
quickly and didn't think I would need to, I borrowed his motorcycle
chain link splitter (the chain had a split link so I shouldn't have
needed it) and when he gave it to me it was a bit rusty and stiff. So
I've used it, cleaned, de-rusted and lubed it for him. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

T i m <news@spaced.me.uk> wrote:

Given the cost of a car and it's general use and upkeep, why don't all
people that own cars also own a Lithium jump start packs (and a foot
pump, jump leads etc) even if they don't use them themselves? It's
like buying a dinghy and not getting some buoyancy aids and a bailer?

What would be neat is a lithium pack integrated into the car. The car keeps
it topped up and makes sure it's in good condition. Then all you need to do
is pop the bonnet and pull the emergency start handle, or press a button
behind a cover on the dash.

You could also move to using a lithium battery instead of a lead acid -
they're gradually approaching cost parity. Then there's plenty of capacity
for starting - you'd probably want to arrange the charge management so it always keeps some in reserve to start the car.

Theo

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In article <q6E*ecC4x@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

You could also move to using a lithium battery instead of a lead acid - they're gradually approaching cost parity.

Eh? Last time I looked, an equivalent capacity one was about 6 times the
price. Of course a smaller Li-ion could supply the required starting
current - but that isn't going to help with battery life when the car
ain't used. Which is marginal already with many.

--
*Oh, what a tangled website we weave when first we practice *

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

In article <q6E*ecC4x@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

You could also move to using a lithium battery instead of a lead acid - they're gradually approaching cost parity.

Eh? Last time I looked, an equivalent capacity one was about 6 times the price. Of course a smaller Li-ion could supply the required starting
current - but that isn't going to help with battery life when the car
ain't used. Which is marginal already with many.

At car-builder quantities, lithium ion are $150/kWh. Lead acid is $100-200. Obviously 'it depends' in lots of ways, but it's starting to get there.
Then, once you have a lithium ion it starts making sense to make it
hybrid as well.

Theo

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 14/10/2020 17:08, Theo wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

In article <q6E*ecC4x@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

You could also move to using a lithium battery instead of a lead acid -
they're gradually approaching cost parity.

Eh? Last time I looked, an equivalent capacity one was about 6 times the
price. Of course a smaller Li-ion could supply the required starting
current - but that isn't going to help with battery life when the car
ain't used. Which is marginal already with many.

At car-builder quantities, lithium ion are $150/kWh. Lead acid is $100-200. Obviously 'it depends' in lots of ways, but it's starting to get there.
Then, once you have a lithium ion it starts making sense to make it
hybrid as well.

Theo

Typical car battery is around 3/4 kwh (60 Ah).

Typical hybrid 4-6 kwh. So you have just added £450 - £750 to the cost
of the car before you install the motor/gen on the trans and the
controller. By the time it's rolling off the showroom floor its £5000 extra.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In article <r6E*HIC4x@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

At car-builder quantities, lithium ion are $150/kWh. Lead acid is $100-200.

Can you explain why you can't buy a Li-ion 70 amp hour replacement for
anywhere near the same price as a lead acid, then?

--
*I feel like I'm diagonally parked in a parallel universe*

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In article <r6E*HIC4x@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

In article <q6E*ecC4x@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

You could also move to using a lithium battery instead of a lead
acid - they're gradually approaching cost parity.

Eh? Last time I looked, an equivalent capacity one was about 6 times
the price. Of course a smaller Li-ion could supply the required
starting current - but that isn't going to help with battery life when
the car ain't used. Which is marginal already with many.

At car-builder quantities, lithium ion are $150/kWh. Lead acid is
$100-200. Obviously 'it depends' in lots of ways, but it's starting to
get there. Then, once you have a lithium ion it starts making sense to
make it hybrid as well.

If they are now near the same price as lead acid, do any makers of IC
engined cars now fit them as standard - other than some exotics?

--
*The more people I meet, the more I like my dog.

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

In article <r6E*HIC4x@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

At car-builder quantities, lithium ion are $150/kWh. Lead acid is $100-200.

Can you explain why you can't buy a Li-ion 70 amp hour replacement for anywhere near the same price as a lead acid, then?

Because they aren't sold in the GWh quantities that car builders are
producing lithium ion.

Plus the car is set up to charge lead acid, so you need conversion
electronics to adapt to a lithium charge profile. Adding those electronics might cost more than the price of the lithium cells (at car-builder not
Maplin prices).

Theo

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 14/10/2020 11:38, T i m wrote:

Given the cost of a car and it's general use and upkeep, why don't all
people that own cars also own a Lithium jump start packs (and a foot
pump, jump leads etc) even if they don't use them themselves? It's
like buying a dinghy and not getting some buoyancy aids and a bailer?

Possibly with mobile phone coverage they effectively do this by joining
a breakdown service. I have both a lithium jump start pack and an
electric tyre air pump in the boot of my car (and an decent air pressure
gauge)

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 14:40:02 +0100, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk>
wrote:

On 14/10/2020 11:38, T i m wrote:

Given the cost of a car and it's general use and upkeep, why don't all
people that own cars also own a Lithium jump start packs (and a foot
pump, jump leads etc) even if they don't use them themselves? It's
like buying a dinghy and not getting some buoyancy aids and a bailer?

Possibly with mobile phone coverage they effectively do this by joining
a breakdown service.

Well, I do that as well but only for those thing I can't reasonably
cover myself, like an actual 'breakdown', not just my negligence like
running out of fuel or laving the lights on overnight.

I have both a lithium jump start pack and an
electric tyre air pump in the boot of my car (and an decent air pressure >gauge)

As everyone should, and have the skills to be able to use them.

In the day sack I nearly always pick up when walking the dog(s) are a
couple of bottles of water (and a small collapsible dog bowl), a
waterproof bag containing some basic first aid stuff, another with a
wodge of tissues, a small LED torch, a couple of snack bars, two
lightweight ponchos, portable charging battery etc etc. The water is
probably the heaviest stuff but I don't mind carrying it as it all
adds to the exercise and it has all come in handy at some point or
another (mostly for other people).

Under the floor in the back of the Meriva I have a bag of various
tools with emergency tapes, spare lamps, electric pump with torch,
gloves, a sheet of plastic, some WD40, jump leads and if we are going
out further, the lithium jump start pack (that's also a USB charger).

I think it's all about being as self sufficient as possible, both not
wanting to have to call on anyone if possible plus being ready and
able to help others if I need / choose, part of why I was in IT
support most my life I guess. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)