On Tue, 23 Apr 2024 13:19:47 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm no international lawyer, but why don't the french police puncture a >rubber craft as soon as they see one ? Job done, no need for Rwanda flights.

If you mean why don't they stop people setting off in a boat when they see
it happening, the answer is that they do. But preventing a clandestine departure from the beach is a lot harder than you may imagine, even highly authoritarian states such as North Korea struggle to prevent discontented citizens leaving by such methods and France has nowhere near the policing resources of somewhere like North Korea. So despite their best efforts, some
do still get away from the beach.

If, on the other hand, you mean why don't they destroy any boat they come across, before they know whether it's about to be used by people smugglers, then the answer is that, again not being a highly authoritarian state, that doing so would be contrary to individual property rights. There are many legitimate uses, and legitimate users, of small boats, and those people are often the victims of the people smugglers who steal the boats shortly before setting sail in them. For the police to effectively pre-empt the thieves by destroying the boats first would be completely unacceptable in a free and democratic state.

And, on the gripping hand, if you mean why don't the French police destroy
the boats when they see them in the water heading for the UK, then the
answer is that, once at sea, the lives of those on board are paramount and taking action which would place them at significant risk would be
unacceptable both legally and morally. The French maritime authorities will
try to seize boats in transit if they can, but that's also a lot harder than many people imagine. The Channel isn't very wide, and by the time a smuggler boat has been spotted and a French patrol boat has caught up with it, it's likely to be in British waters. At which point it's job done, the smugglers
can surrender the boat to the British authorities and claim asylym after
being brought ashore.

I suppose one way to solve that would be for the UK to cede the entirety of
La Manche to France, retaining British sovereignty only as far as the low
water mark. That would make it a lot harder for smuggler boats to get out of reach of French patrols before entering UK territory. But it might also have some unintended consequences, such as needing a passport to visit the end of Brighton Pier.

Mark

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Am 23/04/2024 um 13:19 schrieb TTman:

I'm no international lawyer, but why don't the french police puncture a rubber craft as soon as they see one ? Job done, no need for Rwanda
flights.

Maybe because they hope the folks from Reform UK do it on their behalf?

--
Ottavio Caruso

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On Tue, 23 Apr 2024 13:19:47 +0100, TTman wrote...

I'm no international lawyer, but why don't the french police puncture a rubber craft as soon as they see one ? Job done, no need for Rwanda flights.

That's armchair policing.

The reality today:

"As the police, at least 15 in number, ran to get closer to the
migrants, several young men turned round to face them, brandishing
long sticks and throwing flares or firecrackers towards the police.

There were angry shouts and cries. Smoke drifted across the dark
beach. The smugglers appeared to be forming a sort of human barrier
around their paying passengers, as they all backed into the water."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68882577
"Five dead on migrant boat"

--
Tim Jackson
news@timjackson.invalid
(Change '.invalid' to '.plus.com' to reply direct)

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On 23/04/2024 01:49 pm, Mark Goodge wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2024 13:19:47 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm no international lawyer, but why don't the french police puncture a
rubber craft as soon as they see one ? Job done, no need for Rwanda flights.

If you mean why don't they stop people setting off in a boat when they see
it happening, the answer is that they do. But preventing a clandestine departure from the beach is a lot harder than you may imagine, even highly authoritarian states such as North Korea struggle to prevent discontented citizens leaving by such methods and France has nowhere near the policing resources of somewhere like North Korea. So despite their best efforts, some do still get away from the beach.

If, on the other hand, you mean why don't they destroy any boat they come across, before they know whether it's about to be used by people smugglers, then the answer is that, again not being a highly authoritarian state, that doing so would be contrary to individual property rights. There are many legitimate uses, and legitimate users, of small boats, and those people are often the victims of the people smugglers who steal the boats shortly before setting sail in them. For the police to effectively pre-empt the thieves by destroying the boats first would be completely unacceptable in a free and democratic state.

In the particular circumstances which currently obtain in the Pas de
Calais, it would surely not be unreasonable for those "small boats"
which consist of inflatable rubber to be simply prohibited (except for
official users) within so many miles or kilometres of the coast on
either side of the Channel?

What legitimate craft-user - other than lifeboat, Coastguard or Royal
Navy / French navy personnel - sets off in an inflatable anyway?

And the prohibition need not be permanent. It could be reviewed when the
threat is no longer present.

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Am 23/04/2024 um 16:25 schrieb TTman:

On 23/04/2024 15:28, Tim Jackson wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2024 13:19:47 +0100, TTman wrote...

I'm no international lawyer, but why don't the french police puncture a
rubber craft as soon as they see one ? Job done, no need for Rwanda
flights.

That's armchair policing.

The reality today:

  "As the police, at least 15 in number, ran to get closer to the
   migrants, several young men turned round to face them, brandishing
   long sticks and throwing flares or firecrackers towards the police.

   There were angry shouts and cries. Smoke drifted across the dark
   beach. The smugglers appeared to be forming a sort of human barrier
   around their paying passengers, as they all backed into the water."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68882577
"Five dead on migrant boat"

So, shoot the smugglers....

The smugglers, at least in the Med, are "Grünen/Linke" German white
savior NGOs and you can't just shoot them although I'd be more than ok
with it.

--
Ottavio Caruso

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On 23 Apr 2024 at 22:57:24 BST, "TTman" <kraken.sankey@gmail.com> wrote:

On 23/04/2024 13:19, TTman wrote:

I'm no international lawyer, but why don't the french police puncture a
rubber craft as soon as they see one ? Job done, no need for Rwanda
flights.

Seems that ( according to the news tonight) that the French police are
not allowed in the water. What an utterly lame excuse.

Why should a sovereign country have to make excuses for not doing exactly what you would personally like them to do? Perhaps they do not have the same priorities as you.


--

Roger Hayter

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On 23-Apr-24 22:57, TTman wrote:

On 23/04/2024 13:19, TTman wrote:

I'm no international lawyer, but why don't the french police puncture
a rubber craft as soon as they see one ? Job done, no need for Rwanda
flights.

Seems that ( according to the news tonight) that the French police are
not allowed in the water. What an utterly lame excuse.

It's time for you to act!
Go there and take all those actions which you urge on others.

(If you want a good job done, do it yourself.)

--
Sam Plusnet

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On 23/04/2024 23:06, Roger Hayter wrote:

On 23 Apr 2024 at 22:57:24 BST, "TTman" <kraken.sankey@gmail.com> wrote:

On 23/04/2024 13:19, TTman wrote:

I'm no international lawyer, but why don't the french police puncture a
rubber craft as soon as they see one ? Job done, no need for Rwanda
flights.

Seems that ( according to the news tonight) that the French police are
not allowed in the water. What an utterly lame excuse.

Why should a sovereign country have to make excuses for not doing exactly what
you would personally like them to do? Perhaps they do not have the same priorities as you.

Er, possibly because we are handing them shedloads of cash to do just that?

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Am 24/04/2024 um 01:36 schrieb Sam Plusnet:

On 23-Apr-24 22:57, TTman wrote:

On 23/04/2024 13:19, TTman wrote:

I'm no international lawyer, but why don't the french police puncture
a rubber craft as soon as they see one ? Job done, no need for Rwanda
flights.

Seems that ( according to the news tonight) that the French police are
not allowed in the water. What an utterly lame excuse.

It's time for you to act!
Go there and take all those actions which you urge on others.

(If you want a good job done, do it yourself.)

I guess, whatever action he takes, he'll have to set up an NGO
(preferably in Germany).

--
Ottavio Caruso

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On 23/04/2024 13:49, Mark Goodge wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2024 13:19:47 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm no international lawyer, but why don't the french police puncture a
rubber craft as soon as they see one ? Job done, no need for Rwanda flights.

If you mean why don't they stop people setting off in a boat when they see
it happening, the answer is that they do. But preventing a clandestine departure from the beach is a lot harder than you may imagine, even highly authoritarian states such as North Korea struggle to prevent discontented citizens leaving by such methods and France has nowhere near the policing resources of somewhere like North Korea. So despite their best efforts, some do still get away from the beach.

I know there might be some objections, but why can't people who are
picked up in rubber boats simply be returned to France and decanted onto
the beach?

--
Max Demian

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On 24/04/2024 11:37 am, Max Demian wrote:

On 23/04/2024 13:49, Mark Goodge wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2024 13:19:47 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com>
wrote:

I'm no international lawyer, but why don't the french police puncture a
rubber craft as soon as they see one ? Job done, no need for Rwanda
flights.

If you mean why don't they stop people setting off in a boat when they
see
it happening, the answer is that they do. But preventing a clandestine
departure from the beach is a lot harder than you may imagine, even
highly
authoritarian states such as North Korea struggle to prevent discontented
citizens leaving by such methods and France has nowhere near the policing
resources of somewhere like North Korea. So despite their best
efforts, some
do still get away from the beach.

I know there might be some objections, but why can't people who are
picked up in rubber boats simply be returned to France and decanted onto
the beach?

A good question.

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In message <l8sassFh1tpU3@mid.individual.net>, at 13:05:48 on Wed, 24
Apr 2024, JNugent <JNugent73@mail.com> remarked:

On 24/04/2024 11:37 am, Max Demian wrote:

On 23/04/2024 13:49, Mark Goodge wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2024 13:19:47 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com> >>>wrote:

I'm no international lawyer, but why don't the french police puncture a >>>> rubber craft as soon as they see one ? Job done, no need for Rwanda >>>>flights.

If you mean why don't they stop people setting off in a boat when
they see
it happening, the answer is that they do. But preventing a clandestine
departure from the beach is a lot harder than you may imagine, even >>>highly
authoritarian states such as North Korea struggle to prevent discontented >>> citizens leaving by such methods and France has nowhere near the policing >>> resources of somewhere like North Korea. So despite their best
efforts, some
do still get away from the beach.

I know there might be some objections, but why can't people who are >>picked up in rubber boats simply be returned to France and decanted
onto the beach?

A good question.

Because there are International Treaties forbidding it. Aggravated by
the fact that a boat-person enters the UK halfway across the channel,
not when they reach Dover.
--
Roland Perry

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On Wed, 24 Apr 2024 11:37:12 +0100, Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

On 23/04/2024 13:49, Mark Goodge wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2024 13:19:47 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com> wrote: >>

I'm no international lawyer, but why don't the french police puncture a
rubber craft as soon as they see one ? Job done, no need for Rwanda flights.

If you mean why don't they stop people setting off in a boat when they see >> it happening, the answer is that they do. But preventing a clandestine
departure from the beach is a lot harder than you may imagine, even highly >> authoritarian states such as North Korea struggle to prevent discontented
citizens leaving by such methods and France has nowhere near the policing
resources of somewhere like North Korea. So despite their best efforts, some >> do still get away from the beach.

I know there might be some objections, but why can't people who are
picked up in rubber boats simply be returned to France and decanted onto
the beach?

If they're picked up while still in French waters, they are.

Mark

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On Tue, 23 Apr 2024 16:25:46 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com> wrote:

On 23/04/2024 15:28, Tim Jackson wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2024 13:19:47 +0100, TTman wrote...

I'm no international lawyer, but why don't the french police puncture a
rubber craft as soon as they see one ? Job done, no need for Rwanda flights.

That's armchair policing.

The reality today:

"As the police, at least 15 in number, ran to get closer to the
migrants, several young men turned round to face them, brandishing
long sticks and throwing flares or firecrackers towards the police.

There were angry shouts and cries. Smoke drifted across the dark
beach. The smugglers appeared to be forming a sort of human barrier
around their paying passengers, as they all backed into the water."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68882577
"Five dead on migrant boat"

So, shoot the smugglers....

There is absolutely no way that any rational person would consider summary execution a proportionate response. We live in a country which operates by
rule of law; if you would prefer it otherwise then I suggest you emigrate to somewhere more amenable. North Korea, maybe, or possibly Somalia.

Mark

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In article <v08914$1k45r$2@dont-email.me>,
kraken.sankey@gmail.com says...

I'm no international lawyer, but why don't the french police puncture a rubber craft as soon as they see one ? Job done, no need for Rwanda flights.

What French law is being broken?

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On 11:37 24 Apr 2024, Max Demian said:

On 23/04/2024 13:49, Mark Goodge wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2024 13:19:47 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com>
wrote:

I'm no international lawyer, but why don't the french police
puncture a rubber craft as soon as they see one ? Job done, no need
for Rwanda flights.

If you mean why don't they stop people setting off in a boat when
they see it happening, the answer is that they do. But preventing a
clandestine departure from the beach is a lot harder than you may
imagine, even highly authoritarian states such as North Korea
struggle to prevent discontented citizens leaving by such methods and
France has nowhere near the policing resources of somewhere like
North Korea. So despite their best efforts, some do still get away
from the beach.

I know there might be some objections, but why can't people who are
picked up in rubber boats simply be returned to France and decanted
onto the beach?

You might find that the French object. A British boat would have to pass through French territorial waters, for which it needs permission.

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On 22:57 23 Apr 2024, TTman said:

On 23/04/2024 13:19, TTman wrote:

I'm no international lawyer, but why don't the french police puncture a
rubber craft as soon as they see one ? Job done, no need for Rwanda
flights.

Seems that ( according to the news tonight) that the French police are
not allowed in the water. What an utterly lame excuse.

The French have a maritime gendarmerie which don't seem to be doing
anything to stop small boats departing.

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On 17:01 24 Apr 2024, Roland Perry said:

In message <l8sassFh1tpU3@mid.individual.net>, at 13:05:48 on Wed, 24
Apr 2024, JNugent <JNugent73@mail.com> remarked:

On 24/04/2024 11:37 am, Max Demian wrote:

On 23/04/2024 13:49, Mark Goodge wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2024 13:19:47 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com> >>>>wrote:

I'm no international lawyer, but why don't the french police
puncture a rubber craft as soon as they see one ? Job done, no
need for Rwanda flights.

If you mean why don't they stop people setting off in a boat when
they see it happening, the answer is that they do. But preventing a
clandestine departure from the beach is a lot harder than you may
imagine, even highly authoritarian states such as North Korea
struggle to prevent discontented citizens leaving by such methods
and France has nowhere near the policing resources of somewhere
like North Korea. So despite their best efforts, some do still get
away from the beach.

I know there might be some objections, but why can't people who are >>>picked up in rubber boats simply be returned to France and decanted
onto the beach?

A good question.

Because there are International Treaties forbidding it. Aggravated by
the fact that a boat-person enters the UK halfway across the channel,
not when they reach Dover.

The treaty Britain needs is the Dublin Agreement (which we left on
account of Brexit).

As you probably know, this allowed us to return migrants to safe EU
countries where migrants should have claimed asylum if they had passed
through them.

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On Wed, 24 Apr 2024 17:16:41 +0100, Mark Goodge wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2024 16:25:46 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com>
wrote:

[quoted text muted]

There is absolutely no way that any rational person would consider
summary execution a proportionate response. We live in a country which operates by rule of law;

he law is what parliament says it is. No more. No Less.

The law says Rwanda is safe regardless of reality.

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On Wed, 24 Apr 2024 22:42:33 +0100, Pamela <uklm@permabulator.33mail.com> wrote:

On 22:57 23 Apr 2024, TTman said:

On 23/04/2024 13:19, TTman wrote:

I'm no international lawyer, but why don't the french police puncture a
rubber craft as soon as they see one ? Job done, no need for Rwanda
flights.

Seems that ( according to the news tonight) that the French police are
not allowed in the water. What an utterly lame excuse.

The French have a maritime gendarmerie which don't seem to be doing
anything to stop small boats departing.

Put yourself in the shoes of a French chief constable (or whatever their equivalent is) or French politician. The general public complains about burglary rising, shoplifting rising, cybercrime rising, etc. Are you really going to want to spend much of your policing budget on keeping people in
your country that, frankly, you'd be quite happy to see the back of? Or
would you prefer to leave that as Someone Else's Problem?

Mark

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On Wed, 24 Apr 2024 11:37:12 +0100, Max Demian wrote...

I know there might be some objections, but why can't people who are
picked up in rubber boats simply be returned to France and decanted onto
the beach?

I know there might be some objections, but when the French coastguard
picks up people from rubber boats, why can't they just take them the
rest of the way across the Channel and decant them on an English beach?

(In practice, they do indeed take them back to France.)

--
Tim Jackson
news@timjackson.invalid
(Change '.invalid' to '.plus.com' to reply direct)

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