A friend of mine, originally from a non English speaking country but
who's been here at least 14 years, met someone from his own country and recently married her. He is now trying to get her over here on a visa,
which has been refused, due to her not taking an English language test.
I have absolutely no knowledge of Immigration matters but he's asked me
to look over it in the hope of appealing and she is taking the English language test on Friday. Looking at the reasons the visa was refused it states the following.
You do not meet the eligibility English language requirement of
paragraphs E-ECP.4.1. to
4.2. You are not exempt from the English language requirement under
paragraph EECP.
4.2. In addition, you are not a national of a majority English speaking country listed
in paragraph GEN 1.6.
Furthermore you have not passed an English language test (A1 Level of Common European Framework) with a provider approved by UKVI.
In addition you do not hold an academic qualification recognised by
Ecctis UK to be the
equivalent to the standard of a Bachelor’s or Master’s degree or PhD in the UK, which
was taught in English. I therefore refuse your application under
paragraph EC-P.1.1(d) of
Appendix FM of the Immigration Rules. (E-ECP.4.1)
The appendix can be found here and 4.1 lists 4 requirements. (d is
exemtion if meeting 4.2 criteria.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/immigration-rules/immigration-rules-appendix-fm-family-members
My question is, do all the requirements need to be met or just one? If
just one then I can see there are reasonable grounds to appeal once
she's taken the English language test, but fails on the other two.
On 17 Apr 2024 at 16:18:42 BST, "John" <megane.06@gmail.com> wrote:
My question is, do all the requirements need to be met or just one? If
just one then I can see there are reasonable grounds to appeal once
she's taken the English language test, but fails on the other two.
I am surprised the text doesn't make it plain, but I read c) and d) as alternatives to the language test.
On 17 Apr 2024 at 16:18:42 BST, "John" <megane.06@gmail.com> wrote:
A friend of mine, originally from a non English speaking country but
who's been here at least 14 years, met someone from his own country and
recently married her. He is now trying to get her over here on a visa,
which has been refused, due to her not taking an English language test.
I have absolutely no knowledge of Immigration matters but he's asked me
to look over it in the hope of appealing and she is taking the English
language test on Friday. Looking at the reasons the visa was refused it
states the following.
You do not meet the eligibility English language requirement of
paragraphs E-ECP.4.1. to
4.2. You are not exempt from the English language requirement under
paragraph EECP.
4.2. In addition, you are not a national of a majority English speaking
country listed
in paragraph GEN 1.6.
Furthermore you have not passed an English language test (A1 Level of Common >> European Framework) with a provider approved by UKVI.
In addition you do not hold an academic qualification recognised by
Ecctis UK to be the
equivalent to the standard of a Bachelor’s or Master’s degree or PhD in >> the UK, which
was taught in English. I therefore refuse your application under
paragraph EC-P.1.1(d) of
Appendix FM of the Immigration Rules. (E-ECP.4.1)
The appendix can be found here and 4.1 lists 4 requirements. (d is
exemtion if meeting 4.2 criteria.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/immigration-rules/immigration-rules-appendix-fm-family-members
My question is, do all the requirements need to be met or just one? If
just one then I can see there are reasonable grounds to appeal once
she's taken the English language test, but fails on the other two.
I am surprised the text doesn't make it plain, but I read c) and d) as alternatives to the language test. I am sure the language test, if passed, satisfies 4.1 requirements. If you have told us all it says in the decision letter then she should be ok if she passes the language test. IANAL, but that is my reading of it.
On 17 Apr 2024 at 17:04:04 BST, "Roger Hayter" <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
I am surprised the text doesn't make it plain, but I read c) and d) as
alternatives to the language test. I am sure the language test, if passed, >> satisfies 4.1 requirements. If you have told us all it says in the decision >> letter then she should be ok if she passes the language test. IANAL,
but that is my reading of it.
That's a), c) and d) I mean. Why there is only an 'or' before d) must
be some clever new drafting rule, which actually creates an ambiguity,
though the clever person who thought it up will no doubt deny it. It
saves about six letters and a few punctuation marks I suppose.
On 2024-04-17, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
On 17 Apr 2024 at 16:18:42 BST, "John" <megane.06@gmail.com> wrote:
My question is, do all the requirements need to be met or just one? If
just one then I can see there are reasonable grounds to appeal once
she's taken the English language test, but fails on the other two.
I am surprised the text doesn't make it plain, but I read c) and d) as
alternatives to the language test.
It does make it plain - the last word in the penultimate option, (c),
is "or".
What isn't clear to me is how you can appeal a decision that was
correctly made on the facts at the time.
I would've thought a new application would be required.
A friend of mine, originally from a non English speaking country but
who's been here at least 14 years, met someone from his own country and recently married her. He is now trying to get her over here on a visa, which has been refused, due to her not taking an English language test.
I have absolutely no knowledge of Immigration matters but he's asked me
to look over it in the hope of appealing and she is taking the English language test on Friday. Looking at the reasons the visa was refused it states the following.
You do not meet the eligibility English language requirement of
paragraphs E-ECP.4.1. to
4.2. You are not exempt from the English language requirement under
paragraph EECP.
4.2. In addition, you are not a national of a majority English speaking country listed
in paragraph GEN 1.6.
Furthermore you have not passed an English language test (A1 Level of
Common
European Framework) with a provider approved by UKVI.
In addition you do not hold an academic qualification recognised by
Ecctis UK to be the
equivalent to the standard of a Bachelor’s or Master’s degree or PhD in the UK, which
was taught in English. I therefore refuse your application under
paragraph EC-P.1.1(d) of
Appendix FM of the Immigration Rules. (E-ECP.4.1)
The appendix can be found here and 4.1 lists 4 requirements. (d is
exemtion if meeting 4.2 criteria.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/immigration-rules/immigration-rules-appendix-fm-family-members
My question is, do all the requirements need to be met or just one? If
just one then I can see there are reasonable grounds to appeal once
she's taken the English language test, but fails on the other two.
I am surprised the text doesn't make it plain, but I read c) and d) as alternatives to the language test. I am sure the language test, if passed, satisfies 4.1 requirements. If you have told us all it says in the decision letter then she should be ok if she passes the language test. IANAL, but that is my reading of it.
On 2024-04-17, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
On 17 Apr 2024 at 16:18:42 BST, "John" <megane.06@gmail.com> wrote:
My question is, do all the requirements need to be met or just one? If
just one then I can see there are reasonable grounds to appeal once
she's taken the English language test, but fails on the other two.
I am surprised the text doesn't make it plain, but I read c) and d) as
alternatives to the language test.
It does make it plain - the last word in the penultimate option, (c),
is "or".
What isn't clear to me is how you can appeal a decision that was
correctly made on the facts at the time. I would've thought a new
application would be required.
On 17/04/2024 19:18, Jon Ribbens wrote:
On 2024-04-17, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
On 17 Apr 2024 at 16:18:42 BST, "John" <megane.06@gmail.com> wrote:
My question is, do all the requirements need to be met or just one? If >>>> just one then I can see there are reasonable grounds to appeal once
she's taken the English language test, but fails on the other two.
I am surprised the text doesn't make it plain, but I read c) and d) as
alternatives to the language test.
It does make it plain - the last word in the penultimate option, (c),
is "or".
What isn't clear to me is how you can appeal a decision that was
correctly made on the facts at the time. I would've thought a new
application would be required.
I wonder if the fact that the financial requirements changed from 11th
April might affect the decision as to whether a new application or an
attempt to appeal the first one might be the better option?
That's a), c) and d) I mean. Why there is only an 'or' before d) must be some >clever new drafting rule, which actually creates an ambiguity, though the >clever person who thought it up will no doubt deny it. It saves about six >letters and a few punctuation marks I suppose.
On 17 Apr 2024 18:16:13 GMT, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
That's a), c) and d) I mean. Why there is only an 'or' before d) must be some
clever new drafting rule, which actually creates an ambiguity, though the
clever person who thought it up will no doubt deny it. It saves about six
letters and a few punctuation marks I suppose.
It's perfectly normal English grammar. You only need the conjunction once,
if the same applies to all the eelements in a list. Consider the following two sentences:
To be eligible, you must have passed Biology, Physics and Chemistry
To be eligible, you must have passed Biology, Physics or Chemistry
Or these two:
Club ties are green, pink and orange
Club ties are green, pink or orange
And then consider the list we are referring to here:
A visa will be granted if you are exempt from the language requirement,
come from an English-speaking country, have a recognised qualification
taught in English, or have passed an English test.
The last one does need the Oxford comma to remove ambiguity, but the legislation contains that (or, rather, an Oxford semi-colon). Either way, it's clear that meeting just one requirement is sufficient - it's "or" all the way through.
Mark
On 17 Apr 2024 at 21:21:55 BST, "Mark Goodge" <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
On 17 Apr 2024 18:16:13 GMT, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
That's a), c) and d) I mean. Why there is only an 'or' before d) must be some
clever new drafting rule, which actually creates an ambiguity, though the >>> clever person who thought it up will no doubt deny it. It saves about six >>> letters and a few punctuation marks I suppose.
It's perfectly normal English grammar. You only need the conjunction once, >> if the same applies to all the eelements in a list. Consider the following >> two sentences:
To be eligible, you must have passed Biology, Physics and Chemistry
To be eligible, you must have passed Biology, Physics or Chemistry
Or these two:
Club ties are green, pink and orange
Club ties are green, pink or orange
And then consider the list we are referring to here:
A visa will be granted if you are exempt from the language requirement, >> come from an English-speaking country, have a recognised qualification
taught in English, or have passed an English test.
The last one does need the Oxford comma to remove ambiguity, but the
legislation contains that (or, rather, an Oxford semi-colon). Either way,
it's clear that meeting just one requirement is sufficient - it's "or" all >> the way through.
Mark
Why can it not be read as a list of 3 essential requirements, the last of which may be one of two alternatives? That seems to be how the OP read it. A comma, separated list is one thing, but a set of clauses or sentences separated by semicolons is another.
How would you write a list of n essential requirements where the nth has two alternatives?
A friend of mine, originally from a non English speaking country but
who's been here at least 14 years, met someone from his own country and recently married her. He is now trying to get her over here on a visa, which has been refused, due to her not taking an English language test.
I have absolutely no knowledge of Immigration matters but he's asked me
to look over it in the hope of appealing and she is taking the English language test on Friday. Looking at the reasons the visa was refused it states the following.
You do not meet the eligibility English language requirement of
paragraphs E-ECP.4.1. to
4.2. You are not exempt from the English language requirement under
paragraph EECP.
4.2. In addition, you are not a national of a majority English speaking country listed
in paragraph GEN 1.6.
Furthermore you have not passed an English language test (A1 Level of
Common
European Framework) with a provider approved by UKVI.
In addition you do not hold an academic qualification recognised by
Ecctis UK to be the
equivalent to the standard of a Bachelor’s or Master’s degree or PhD in the UK, which
was taught in English. I therefore refuse your application under
paragraph EC-P.1.1(d) of
Appendix FM of the Immigration Rules. (E-ECP.4.1)
The appendix can be found here and 4.1 lists 4 requirements. (d is
exemtion if meeting 4.2 criteria.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/immigration-rules/immigration-rules-appendix-fm-family-members
My question is, do all the requirements need to be met or just one? If
just one then I can see there are reasonable grounds to appeal once
she's taken the English language test, but fails on the other two.
On 17/04/2024 16:18, John wrote:
A friend of mine, originally from a non English speaking country but
who's been here at least 14 years, met someone from his own country and
recently married her. He is now trying to get her over here on a visa,
which has been refused, due to her not taking an English language test.
I have absolutely no knowledge of Immigration matters but he's asked me
to look over it in the hope of appealing and she is taking the English
language test on Friday. Looking at the reasons the visa was refused it
states the following.
You do not meet the eligibility English language requirement of
paragraphs E-ECP.4.1. to
4.2. You are not exempt from the English language requirement under
paragraph EECP.
4.2. In addition, you are not a national of a majority English speaking
country listed
in paragraph GEN 1.6.
Furthermore you have not passed an English language test (A1 Level of
Common
European Framework) with a provider approved by UKVI.
In addition you do not hold an academic qualification recognised by
Ecctis UK to be the
equivalent to the standard of a Bachelor’s or Master’s degree or PhD in >> the UK, which
was taught in English. I therefore refuse your application under
paragraph EC-P.1.1(d) of
Appendix FM of the Immigration Rules. (E-ECP.4.1)
The appendix can be found here and 4.1 lists 4 requirements. (d is
exemtion if meeting 4.2 criteria.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/immigration-rules/immigration-rules-appendix-fm-family-members
My question is, do all the requirements need to be met or just one? If
just one then I can see there are reasonable grounds to appeal once
she's taken the English language test, but fails on the other two.
Both the language and qualifications requirements need to be met.
A friend of mine, originally from a non English speaking country but
who's been here at least 14 years, met someone from his own country and recently married her. He is now trying to get her over here on a visa, which has been refused, due to her not taking an English language test.
I have absolutely no knowledge of Immigration matters but he's asked me
to look over it in the hope of appealing and she is taking the English language test on Friday. Looking at the reasons the visa was refused it states the following.
You do not meet the eligibility English language requirement of
paragraphs E-ECP.4.1. to
4.2. You are not exempt from the English language requirement under
paragraph EECP.
4.2. In addition, you are not a national of a majority English speaking country listed
in paragraph GEN 1.6.
Furthermore you have not passed an English language test (A1 Level of
Common
European Framework) with a provider approved by UKVI.
In addition you do not hold an academic qualification recognised by
Ecctis UK to be the
equivalent to the standard of a Bachelor’s or Master’s degree or PhD in the UK, which
was taught in English. I therefore refuse your application under
paragraph EC-P.1.1(d) of
Appendix FM of the Immigration Rules. (E-ECP.4.1)
The appendix can be found here and 4.1 lists 4 requirements. (d is
exemtion if meeting 4.2 criteria.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/immigration-rules/immigration-rules-appendix-fm-family-members
My question is, do all the requirements need to be met or just one? If
just one then I can see there are reasonable grounds to appeal once
she's taken the English language test, but fails on the other two.
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