• Vexatious litigation: "give them hell"

    From Pamela@21:1/5 to All on Wed Apr 3 15:18:06 2024
    How likely is a solicitor to refuse a new client whose stated intention
    is to "give them hell"?

    I'm asking in general, although I started off by thinking of a very
    wealthy friend who was unlikely to get his legal demands met although he genuinely believed in them. In the event of likely failure, he
    nevertheless wanted the satisfaction of giving his estranged brother as stressful a time as possible and to rack up the brother's legal costs.

    Would a solicitor typically turn away such a vexatious client?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Pamela on Thu Apr 4 10:17:32 2024
    On 03/04/2024 15:18, Pamela wrote:
    How likely is a solicitor to refuse a new client whose stated intention
    is to "give them hell"?

    I'm asking in general, although I started off by thinking of a very
    wealthy friend who was unlikely to get his legal demands met although he genuinely believed in them. In the event of likely failure, he
    nevertheless wanted the satisfaction of giving his estranged brother as stressful a time as possible and to rack up the brother's legal costs.

    Would a solicitor typically turn away such a vexatious client?

    Somehow I doubt it. That trick is the basis of most vexatious patent
    troll legal action and super rich gagging of investigative reporters.

    https://www.eff.org/issues/resources-patent-troll-victims

    One firm in particular is famous for going after journalists:

    https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2023-12-01/carter-ruck-britains-fiercest-libel-firm-will-pursue-anyone-anywhere-reputation/

    Absorbing senior management time dealing with a court case instead of
    running the company. Unfortunately it works all too effectively.

    If you have enough (loads of) money and are prepared to spend it in that
    way then I reckon there is always someone willing to act for you.

    --
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Todal@21:1/5 to Pamela on Fri Apr 5 11:47:01 2024
    On 03/04/2024 15:18, Pamela wrote:
    How likely is a solicitor to refuse a new client whose stated intention
    is to "give them hell"?

    I'm asking in general, although I started off by thinking of a very
    wealthy friend who was unlikely to get his legal demands met although he genuinely believed in them. In the event of likely failure, he
    nevertheless wanted the satisfaction of giving his estranged brother as stressful a time as possible and to rack up the brother's legal costs.

    Would a solicitor typically turn away such a vexatious client?


    A solicitor is not allowed to put forward a case which he knows to be
    dishonest or which is unduly oppressive to the opponent.

    My recollection is that years ago, solicitors were sending out letters
    before action to ordinary householders saying that they had been
    discovered downloading unlawful copyright content, and demanding hefty
    sums of compensation to avoid the need for proceedings. If I remember
    rightly, those firms were castigated by the SRA and told to stop doing
    it. If anyone can trace any press reports maybe they can supply a link
    and tell me if my recollection is correct.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Pamela@21:1/5 to The Todal on Fri Apr 5 12:12:52 2024
    On 11:47 5 Apr 2024, The Todal said:
    On 03/04/2024 15:18, Pamela wrote:

    How likely is a solicitor to refuse a new client whose stated intention
    is to "give them hell"?

    I'm asking in general, although I started off by thinking of a very
    wealthy friend who was unlikely to get his legal demands met although he
    genuinely believed in them. In the event of likely failure, he
    nevertheless wanted the satisfaction of giving his estranged brother as
    stressful a time as possible and to rack up the brother's legal costs.

    Would a solicitor typically turn away such a vexatious client?


    A solicitor is not allowed to put forward a case which he knows to be dishonest or which is unduly oppressive to the opponent.

    My recollection is that years ago, solicitors were sending out letters
    before action to ordinary householders saying that they had been
    discovered downloading unlawful copyright content, and demanding hefty
    sums of compensation to avoid the need for proceedings. If I remember rightly, those firms were castigated by the SRA and told to stop doing
    it. If anyone can trace any press reports maybe they can supply a link
    and tell me if my recollection is correct.

    I am not thinking of a dishonest case but instead one which is motivated primarily by a wish to cause distress or use up time & money of the other party.

    The following background details are only of passing interest and I am
    asking in general. For what it's worth, the situation was to do with two brothers, one of whom lived abroad. Pending settlement of the father's
    will, his home remained unsold partly because the overseas son used it on visits to the UK. The market value of the house fluctuated considerably (up
    and down) whilst it deteriorated and eventually the house slumped to a low price. This led one brother to hold a very large grudge about the matter.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Pamela@21:1/5 to Simon Parker on Fri Apr 5 12:16:57 2024
    On 13:27 4 Apr 2024, Simon Parker said:
    On 03/04/2024 15:18, Pamela wrote:


    How likely is a solicitor to refuse a new client whose stated
    intention is to "give them hell"?

    I'm asking in general, although I started off by thinking of a very
    wealthy friend who was unlikely to get his legal demands met although
    he genuinely believed in them. In the event of likely failure, he
    nevertheless wanted the satisfaction of giving his estranged brother
    as stressful a time as possible and to rack up the brother's legal
    costs.

    Would a solicitor typically turn away such a vexatious client?

    In theory, or in reality?

    Threatening litigation or making counterclaims and defence arguments
    for reasons that are not connected to resolving genuine disputes or
    advancing legal rights can be considered "Pursuing litigation for
    improper purposes" by the SRA.

    Similarly, making allegations without merit where the sole purpose is
    to stifle an opponent could be considered similarly. (See the SRA's treatment of those involved in so-called SLAPP cases for their current thoughts on such litigation.)

    Then there's paragraph 1.2 of the SRA's Code of Conduct for Solicitors
    which says of solicitors: "you must not abuse your position by taking
    unfair advantage of clients or others."

    Giving artificially short or wholly unnecessary deadlines to reply to correspondence have been considered as "Taking unfair advantage" by
    the SRA.

    As has threatening litigation where there is no proper legal basis for
    a claim, making exaggerated claims of adverse consequences, sending excessively legalistic letters with the aim of intimidating the other
    party, particularly unrepresented or lay parties and sending letters
    in abusive, intimidating or aggressive tone or language.

    There is case law for excessive litigation and the court's view
    thereof, for example see Excalibur Ventures LLC v Texas Keystone Inc
    and others [2013] EWHC 4278 (Comm) [2013] [1] and Optimares SpA v
    Qatar Airways Group QCSC [2022] EWHC 2507 (Comm) [2] (Spoiler Alert: Indemnity Costs)

    So that's it then? A solicitor must turn away a vexatious client?

    As always, the devil is in the detail.

    Litigation involves making a client aware of the potential costs,
    risks and merits of their case and then putting the case against the
    other party in strong terms pursuant to the client's instructions.

    Solicitors are not routinely obliged to challenge their own client's
    case, although they do have a duty to interrogate and engage properly
    with the legal and evidential merits thereof.

    They must not advance arguments that they do not consider to be
    properly arguable and they must have regard to the rule of law and the administration of justice.

    But there's enough wriggle room in all the above for a skilled
    solicitor to stay this side of the line as far as the regulations,
    code of conduct and guidance go, whilst still causing the other party
    no end of trouble.

    Regards

    S.P.

    [1] https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Comm/2013/4278.html
    [2] https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Comm/2022/2507.html

    There's a lot of technical detail there to digest. Thanks for the
    references. It seems that if the work is legitimate then there's no professional obligation to turn the new client away.

    However I wonder what tends to happen in practise when a solicitor gets
    a sense that his client's motives are highly personal rather than purely
    legal.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jethro_uk@21:1/5 to The Todal on Fri Apr 5 13:35:27 2024
    On Fri, 05 Apr 2024 11:47:01 +0100, The Todal wrote:

    On 03/04/2024 15:18, Pamela wrote:
    How likely is a solicitor to refuse a new client whose stated intention
    is to "give them hell"?

    I'm asking in general, although I started off by thinking of a very
    wealthy friend who was unlikely to get his legal demands met although
    he genuinely believed in them. In the event of likely failure, he
    nevertheless wanted the satisfaction of giving his estranged brother as
    stressful a time as possible and to rack up the brother's legal costs.

    Would a solicitor typically turn away such a vexatious client?


    A solicitor is not allowed to put forward a case which he knows to be dishonest or which is unduly oppressive to the opponent.

    My recollection is that years ago, solicitors were sending out letters
    before action to ordinary householders saying that they had been
    discovered downloading unlawful copyright content, and demanding hefty
    sums of compensation to avoid the need for proceedings. If I remember rightly, those firms were castigated by the SRA and told to stop doing
    it. If anyone can trace any press reports maybe they can supply a link
    and tell me if my recollection is correct.

    Not only that. They were made to refund the money to the client.

    Oh no, that never happened.

    Unless there are financial downsides of bad behaviour that hurt, I can't
    see why anyone wouldn't undertake it. Certainly a lot of spammers get
    away with it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Todal@21:1/5 to Pamela on Fri Apr 5 15:17:11 2024
    On 05/04/2024 12:16, Pamela wrote:
    On 13:27 4 Apr 2024, Simon Parker said:
    On 03/04/2024 15:18, Pamela wrote:


    How likely is a solicitor to refuse a new client whose stated
    intention is to "give them hell"?

    I'm asking in general, although I started off by thinking of a very
    wealthy friend who was unlikely to get his legal demands met although
    he genuinely believed in them. In the event of likely failure, he
    nevertheless wanted the satisfaction of giving his estranged brother
    as stressful a time as possible and to rack up the brother's legal
    costs.

    Would a solicitor typically turn away such a vexatious client?

    In theory, or in reality?

    Threatening litigation or making counterclaims and defence arguments
    for reasons that are not connected to resolving genuine disputes or
    advancing legal rights can be considered "Pursuing litigation for
    improper purposes" by the SRA.

    Similarly, making allegations without merit where the sole purpose is
    to stifle an opponent could be considered similarly. (See the SRA's
    treatment of those involved in so-called SLAPP cases for their current
    thoughts on such litigation.)

    Then there's paragraph 1.2 of the SRA's Code of Conduct for Solicitors
    which says of solicitors: "you must not abuse your position by taking
    unfair advantage of clients or others."

    Giving artificially short or wholly unnecessary deadlines to reply to
    correspondence have been considered as "Taking unfair advantage" by
    the SRA.

    As has threatening litigation where there is no proper legal basis for
    a claim, making exaggerated claims of adverse consequences, sending
    excessively legalistic letters with the aim of intimidating the other
    party, particularly unrepresented or lay parties and sending letters
    in abusive, intimidating or aggressive tone or language.

    There is case law for excessive litigation and the court's view
    thereof, for example see Excalibur Ventures LLC v Texas Keystone Inc
    and others [2013] EWHC 4278 (Comm) [2013] [1] and Optimares SpA v
    Qatar Airways Group QCSC [2022] EWHC 2507 (Comm) [2] (Spoiler Alert:
    Indemnity Costs)

    So that's it then? A solicitor must turn away a vexatious client?

    As always, the devil is in the detail.

    Litigation involves making a client aware of the potential costs,
    risks and merits of their case and then putting the case against the
    other party in strong terms pursuant to the client's instructions.

    Solicitors are not routinely obliged to challenge their own client's
    case, although they do have a duty to interrogate and engage properly
    with the legal and evidential merits thereof.

    They must not advance arguments that they do not consider to be
    properly arguable and they must have regard to the rule of law and the
    administration of justice.

    But there's enough wriggle room in all the above for a skilled
    solicitor to stay this side of the line as far as the regulations,
    code of conduct and guidance go, whilst still causing the other party
    no end of trouble.

    Regards

    S.P.

    [1] https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Comm/2013/4278.html
    [2] https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Comm/2022/2507.html

    There's a lot of technical detail there to digest. Thanks for the
    references. It seems that if the work is legitimate then there's no professional obligation to turn the new client away.

    However I wonder what tends to happen in practise when a solicitor gets
    a sense that his client's motives are highly personal rather than purely legal.


    I don't understand the distinction you're making between personal and legal.

    Sometimes a boundary dispute between neighbours will consume a huge sum
    in legal costs. It's often motivated by a firm belief by both litigants
    that they are in the right and that they owe it to their families to
    fight to the finish. Even when the lawyers strongly advise that the
    parties should settle while the costs are still low.

    And maybe there are cases where a person feels they have been unfairly dismissed or have been discriminated against at work, and the lawyers
    say that any compensation is likely to be extinguished by the likely
    costs. Yet the need to be vindicated by a tribunal decision becomes all important. Are these examples of "personal"?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Pamela@21:1/5 to The Todal on Sat Apr 6 12:38:14 2024
    On 15:17 5 Apr 2024, The Todal said:
    On 05/04/2024 12:16, Pamela wrote:
    On 13:27 4 Apr 2024, Simon Parker said:
    On 03/04/2024 15:18, Pamela wrote:


    How likely is a solicitor to refuse a new client whose stated
    intention is to "give them hell"?

    I'm asking in general, although I started off by thinking of a very
    wealthy friend who was unlikely to get his legal demands met
    although he genuinely believed in them. In the event of likely
    failure, he nevertheless wanted the satisfaction of giving his
    estranged brother as stressful a time as possible and to rack up
    the brother's legal costs.

    Would a solicitor typically turn away such a vexatious client?

    In theory, or in reality?

    Threatening litigation or making counterclaims and defence arguments
    for reasons that are not connected to resolving genuine disputes or
    advancing legal rights can be considered "Pursuing litigation for
    improper purposes" by the SRA.

    Similarly, making allegations without merit where the sole purpose
    is to stifle an opponent could be considered similarly. (See the
    SRA's treatment of those involved in so-called SLAPP cases for their
    current thoughts on such litigation.)

    Then there's paragraph 1.2 of the SRA's Code of Conduct for
    Solicitors which says of solicitors: "you must not abuse your
    position by taking unfair advantage of clients or others."

    Giving artificially short or wholly unnecessary deadlines to reply
    to correspondence have been considered as "Taking unfair advantage"
    by the SRA.

    As has threatening litigation where there is no proper legal basis
    for a claim, making exaggerated claims of adverse consequences,
    sending excessively legalistic letters with the aim of intimidating
    the other party, particularly unrepresented or lay parties and
    sending letters in abusive, intimidating or aggressive tone or
    language.

    There is case law for excessive litigation and the court's view
    thereof, for example see Excalibur Ventures LLC v Texas Keystone Inc
    and others [2013] EWHC 4278 (Comm) [2013] [1] and Optimares SpA v
    Qatar Airways Group QCSC [2022] EWHC 2507 (Comm) [2] (Spoiler
    Alert: Indemnity Costs)

    So that's it then? A solicitor must turn away a vexatious client?

    As always, the devil is in the detail.

    Litigation involves making a client aware of the potential costs,
    risks and merits of their case and then putting the case against the
    other party in strong terms pursuant to the client's instructions.

    Solicitors are not routinely obliged to challenge their own client's
    case, although they do have a duty to interrogate and engage
    properly with the legal and evidential merits thereof.

    They must not advance arguments that they do not consider to be
    properly arguable and they must have regard to the rule of law and
    the administration of justice.

    But there's enough wriggle room in all the above for a skilled
    solicitor to stay this side of the line as far as the regulations,
    code of conduct and guidance go, whilst still causing the other
    party no end of trouble.

    Regards

    S.P.

    [1] https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Comm/2013/4278.html
    [2] https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Comm/2022/2507.html

    There's a lot of technical detail there to digest. Thanks for the
    references. It seems that if the work is legitimate then there's no
    professional obligation to turn the new client away.

    However I wonder what tends to happen in practise when a solicitor
    gets a sense that his client's motives are highly personal rather
    than purely legal.


    I don't understand the distinction you're making between personal and
    legal.

    Sometimes a boundary dispute between neighbours will consume a huge
    sum in legal costs. It's often motivated by a firm belief by both
    litigants that they are in the right and that they owe it to their
    families to fight to the finish. Even when the lawyers strongly advise
    that the parties should settle while the costs are still low.

    And maybe there are cases where a person feels they have been unfairly dismissed or have been discriminated against at work, and the lawyers
    say that any compensation is likely to be extinguished by the likely
    costs. Yet the need to be vindicated by a tribunal decision becomes
    all important. Are these examples of "personal"?

    I appreciate there are cases where a litigant is wrong-headed and perhaps obsessional too, leading to protracted legal conflict in which he genuinely believes he's in the right. Those cases are not what I am asking about.

    Instead I mean a situation in which the litigant doesn't really believe he
    has much of a valid case but nevertheless wants to make a mountain out of
    any available legal molehill (even a worm casting would do) purely to cause stress to the other party.

    My example to you elsewhere in this thread is of a very wealthy brother who
    no longer cared if he lost or gained on a property but simply wanted
    revenge by harassing his estranged brother by taking him through legal processes.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From GB@21:1/5 to Pamela on Sat Apr 6 18:16:05 2024
    On 06/04/2024 12:38, Pamela wrote:


    Instead I mean a situation in which the litigant doesn't really believe he has much of a valid case but nevertheless wants to make a mountain out of
    any available legal molehill (even a worm casting would do) purely to cause stress to the other party.

    Ahem:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_lawsuit_against_public_participation


    Strategic lawsuits against public participation (also known as SLAPP
    suits or intimidation lawsuits),[1] or strategic litigation against
    public participation,[2] are lawsuits intended to censor, intimidate,
    and silence critics by burdening them with the cost of a legal defense
    until they abandon their criticism or opposition.[3]


    There seem to be no dearth of solicitors happy to take these cases on.


    Dan Neidle is pretty regularly SLAPPed. His response, namely to double
    down on the revelations, seems to work quite well.

    https://taxpolicy.org.uk/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Pamela on Sat Apr 6 15:09:56 2024
    On 06/04/2024 12:38, Pamela wrote:
    On 15:17 5 Apr 2024, The Todal said:
    On 05/04/2024 12:16, Pamela wrote:
    On 13:27 4 Apr 2024, Simon Parker said:
    On 03/04/2024 15:18, Pamela wrote:


    How likely is a solicitor to refuse a new client whose stated
    intention is to "give them hell"?

    I'm asking in general, although I started off by thinking of a very
    wealthy friend who was unlikely to get his legal demands met
    although he genuinely believed in them. In the event of likely
    failure, he nevertheless wanted the satisfaction of giving his
    estranged brother as stressful a time as possible and to rack up
    the brother's legal costs.

    Would a solicitor typically turn away such a vexatious client?

    In theory, or in reality?

    Threatening litigation or making counterclaims and defence arguments
    for reasons that are not connected to resolving genuine disputes or
    advancing legal rights can be considered "Pursuing litigation for
    improper purposes" by the SRA.

    Similarly, making allegations without merit where the sole purpose
    is to stifle an opponent could be considered similarly. (See the
    SRA's treatment of those involved in so-called SLAPP cases for their
    current thoughts on such litigation.)

    Then there's paragraph 1.2 of the SRA's Code of Conduct for
    Solicitors which says of solicitors: "you must not abuse your
    position by taking unfair advantage of clients or others."

    Giving artificially short or wholly unnecessary deadlines to reply
    to correspondence have been considered as "Taking unfair advantage"
    by the SRA.

    As has threatening litigation where there is no proper legal basis
    for a claim, making exaggerated claims of adverse consequences,
    sending excessively legalistic letters with the aim of intimidating
    the other party, particularly unrepresented or lay parties and
    sending letters in abusive, intimidating or aggressive tone or
    language.

    There is case law for excessive litigation and the court's view
    thereof, for example see Excalibur Ventures LLC v Texas Keystone Inc
    and others [2013] EWHC 4278 (Comm) [2013] [1] and Optimares SpA v
    Qatar Airways Group QCSC [2022] EWHC 2507 (Comm) [2] (Spoiler
    Alert: Indemnity Costs)

    So that's it then? A solicitor must turn away a vexatious client?

    As always, the devil is in the detail.

    Litigation involves making a client aware of the potential costs,
    risks and merits of their case and then putting the case against the
    other party in strong terms pursuant to the client's instructions.

    Solicitors are not routinely obliged to challenge their own client's
    case, although they do have a duty to interrogate and engage
    properly with the legal and evidential merits thereof.

    They must not advance arguments that they do not consider to be
    properly arguable and they must have regard to the rule of law and
    the administration of justice.

    But there's enough wriggle room in all the above for a skilled
    solicitor to stay this side of the line as far as the regulations,
    code of conduct and guidance go, whilst still causing the other
    party no end of trouble.

    Regards

    S.P.

    [1] https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Comm/2013/4278.html
    [2] https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Comm/2022/2507.html

    There's a lot of technical detail there to digest. Thanks for the
    references. It seems that if the work is legitimate then there's no
    professional obligation to turn the new client away.

    However I wonder what tends to happen in practise when a solicitor
    gets a sense that his client's motives are highly personal rather
    than purely legal.


    I don't understand the distinction you're making between personal and
    legal.

    Sometimes a boundary dispute between neighbours will consume a huge
    sum in legal costs. It's often motivated by a firm belief by both
    litigants that they are in the right and that they owe it to their
    families to fight to the finish. Even when the lawyers strongly advise
    that the parties should settle while the costs are still low.

    And maybe there are cases where a person feels they have been unfairly
    dismissed or have been discriminated against at work, and the lawyers
    say that any compensation is likely to be extinguished by the likely
    costs. Yet the need to be vindicated by a tribunal decision becomes
    all important. Are these examples of "personal"?

    I appreciate there are cases where a litigant is wrong-headed and perhaps obsessional too, leading to protracted legal conflict in which he genuinely believes he's in the right. Those cases are not what I am asking about.

    Boundary disputes are the canonical burning good money after bad dispute
    that not only makes both of the parties poorer but also devalues their property's resale value significantly in addition.

    Instead I mean a situation in which the litigant doesn't really believe he has much of a valid case but nevertheless wants to make a mountain out of
    any available legal molehill (even a worm casting would do) purely to cause stress to the other party.

    You mean like the Mr Bates vs Post Office debacle where the PO knew that
    their entire "Horizon is infallible" case was a pack of lies but ran
    with it anyway using up vast sums of taxpayers money in the hope that
    their impecunious adversaries would give up. I wait with interest to see
    if *any* of the key senior players and legal advisors in that scandal
    are ever brought to justice...

    My example to you elsewhere in this thread is of a very wealthy brother who no longer cared if he lost or gained on a property but simply wanted
    revenge by harassing his estranged brother by taking him through legal processes.

    I reckon he will be able to find someone who will take his money and act
    for him. I've seen plenty of instances where the whole purpose of a
    legal claim was for a major player to harass a smaller startup company.

    --
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jethro_uk@21:1/5 to Martin Harran on Sat Apr 6 20:06:40 2024
    On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 10:01:29 +0100, Martin Harran wrote:

    On Fri, 5 Apr 2024 15:17:11 +0100, The Todal <the_todal@icloud.com>
    wrote:

    On 05/04/2024 12:16, Pamela wrote:
    On 13:27 4 Apr 2024, Simon Parker said:
    On 03/04/2024 15:18, Pamela wrote:


    How likely is a solicitor to refuse a new client whose stated
    intention is to "give them hell"?

    I'm asking in general, although I started off by thinking of a very
    wealthy friend who was unlikely to get his legal demands met
    although he genuinely believed in them. In the event of likely
    failure, he nevertheless wanted the satisfaction of giving his
    estranged brother as stressful a time as possible and to rack up the >>>>> brother's legal costs.

    Would a solicitor typically turn away such a vexatious client?

    In theory, or in reality?

    Threatening litigation or making counterclaims and defence arguments
    for reasons that are not connected to resolving genuine disputes or
    advancing legal rights can be considered "Pursuing litigation for
    improper purposes" by the SRA.

    Similarly, making allegations without merit where the sole purpose is
    to stifle an opponent could be considered similarly. (See the SRA's
    treatment of those involved in so-called SLAPP cases for their
    current thoughts on such litigation.)

    Then there's paragraph 1.2 of the SRA's Code of Conduct for
    Solicitors which says of solicitors: "you must not abuse your
    position by taking unfair advantage of clients or others."

    Giving artificially short or wholly unnecessary deadlines to reply to
    correspondence have been considered as "Taking unfair advantage" by
    the SRA.

    As has threatening litigation where there is no proper legal basis
    for a claim, making exaggerated claims of adverse consequences,
    sending excessively legalistic letters with the aim of intimidating
    the other party, particularly unrepresented or lay parties and
    sending letters in abusive, intimidating or aggressive tone or
    language.

    There is case law for excessive litigation and the court's view
    thereof, for example see Excalibur Ventures LLC v Texas Keystone Inc
    and others [2013] EWHC 4278 (Comm) [2013] [1] and Optimares SpA v
    Qatar Airways Group QCSC [2022] EWHC 2507 (Comm) [2] (Spoiler Alert:
    Indemnity Costs)

    So that's it then? A solicitor must turn away a vexatious client?

    As always, the devil is in the detail.

    Litigation involves making a client aware of the potential costs,
    risks and merits of their case and then putting the case against the
    other party in strong terms pursuant to the client's instructions.

    Solicitors are not routinely obliged to challenge their own client's
    case, although they do have a duty to interrogate and engage properly
    with the legal and evidential merits thereof.

    They must not advance arguments that they do not consider to be
    properly arguable and they must have regard to the rule of law and
    the administration of justice.

    But there's enough wriggle room in all the above for a skilled
    solicitor to stay this side of the line as far as the regulations,
    code of conduct and guidance go, whilst still causing the other party
    no end of trouble.

    Regards

    S.P.

    [1] https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Comm/2013/4278.html [2]
    https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Comm/2022/2507.html

    There's a lot of technical detail there to digest. Thanks for the
    references. It seems that if the work is legitimate then there's no
    professional obligation to turn the new client away.

    However I wonder what tends to happen in practise when a solicitor
    gets a sense that his client's motives are highly personal rather than
    purely legal.


    I don't understand the distinction you're making between personal and >>legal.

    Sometimes a boundary dispute between neighbours will consume a huge sum
    in legal costs. It's often motivated by a firm belief by both litigants >>that they are in the right and that they owe it to their families to
    fight to the finish. Even when the lawyers strongly advise that the
    parties should settle while the costs are still low.

    And maybe there are cases where a person feels they have been unfairly >>dismissed or have been discriminated against at work, and the lawyers
    say that any compensation is likely to be extinguished by the likely
    costs. Yet the need to be vindicated by a tribunal decision becomes all >>important. Are these examples of "personal"?



    A slight variation in what Pamela is asking. The client is not motivated
    to cause vexation, they are just totally convinced that they are in the right. If a solicitor sees that the client is making a very bad
    judgement due to emotion, that the case is entirely groundless and will swiftly be thrown out, should/would a solicitor proceed if the client
    rejects the solicitor's advice and insists on proceeding?

    I would imagine the solicitor would advise the client of their
    determination of the situation. However if the client insists on
    proceeding, I can't see any problem with the solicitor doing so.
    Otherwise the situation could arise in which a particularly "sensitive"
    case gets rejected by solicitors on their determinations. And that could
    lead to certain people being unable to use the courts. Which might
    trouble the fiction that the courts are about justice.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Roger Hayter@21:1/5 to jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com on Sat Apr 6 22:09:11 2024
    On 6 Apr 2024 at 21:06:40 BST, "Jethro_uk" <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> wrote:

    On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 10:01:29 +0100, Martin Harran wrote:
    <font color="#5856d6">snip</font>



    A slight variation in what Pamela is asking. The client is not motivated
    to cause vexation, they are just totally convinced that they are in the
    right. If a solicitor sees that the client is making a very bad
    judgement due to emotion, that the case is entirely groundless and will
    swiftly be thrown out, should/would a solicitor proceed if the client
    rejects the solicitor's advice and insists on proceeding?

    I would imagine the solicitor would advise the client of their
    determination of the situation. However if the client insists on
    proceeding, I can't see any problem with the solicitor doing so.
    Otherwise the situation could arise in which a particularly "sensitive"
    case gets rejected by solicitors on their determinations. And that could
    lead to certain people being unable to use the courts. Which might
    trouble the fiction that the courts are about justice.

    And that anyone should be allowed to buy it!

    --

    Roger Hayter

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jethro_uk@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Sun Apr 7 10:14:58 2024
    On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 15:09:56 +0100, Martin Brown wrote:

    I wait with interest to see if
    *any* of the key senior players and legal advisors in that scandal are
    ever brought to justice...

    I have already stated they won't. Ever,

    Even as we type, Fujitsu have had to buy another small island to stash
    the proceeds of another UK government contract.

    If you are liable to consequences for your actions, then you are on the
    wrong team, my friend. I thought we all knew that anyway. In a way it's
    quite refreshing to have a government that is so open and transparent
    about it's dishonesty. An example to us all.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jethro_uk@21:1/5 to Roger Hayter on Sun Apr 7 10:12:22 2024
    On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 22:09:11 +0000, Roger Hayter wrote:

    On 6 Apr 2024 at 21:06:40 BST, "Jethro_uk" <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com>
    wrote:

    On Sat, 06 Apr 2024 10:01:29 +0100, Martin Harran wrote:
    <font color="#5856d6">snip</font>



    A slight variation in what Pamela is asking. The client is not
    motivated to cause vexation, they are just totally convinced that they
    are in the right. If a solicitor sees that the client is making a very
    bad judgement due to emotion, that the case is entirely groundless and
    will swiftly be thrown out, should/would a solicitor proceed if the
    client rejects the solicitor's advice and insists on proceeding?

    I would imagine the solicitor would advise the client of their
    determination of the situation. However if the client insists on
    proceeding, I can't see any problem with the solicitor doing so.
    Otherwise the situation could arise in which a particularly "sensitive"
    case gets rejected by solicitors on their determinations. And that
    could lead to certain people being unable to use the courts. Which
    might trouble the fiction that the courts are about justice.

    And that anyone should be allowed to buy it!

    Exactly !

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tim Jackson@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 8 18:40:04 2024
    On Fri, 5 Apr 2024 11:47:01 +0100, The Todal wrote...

    A solicitor is not allowed to put forward a case which he knows to be dishonest or which is unduly oppressive to the opponent.

    My recollection is that years ago, solicitors were sending out letters
    before action to ordinary householders saying that they had been
    discovered downloading unlawful copyright content, and demanding hefty
    sums of compensation to avoid the need for proceedings. If I remember rightly, those firms were castigated by the SRA and told to stop doing
    it. If anyone can trace any press reports maybe they can supply a link
    and tell me if my recollection is correct.

    They got their come-uppance at the hands of Judge Colin Birss[1] in the
    Patents County Court[2] and subsequently in Solicitors Regulation
    Authority disciplinary proceedings as you say. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACS:Law

    Birss decisions:
    https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWPCC/2010/17.html https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWPCC/2010/18.html https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWPCC/2011/6.html https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWPCC/2011/10.html

    I believe there was another firm which carried on similar practices subsequently, but not as solicitors (and so unregulated). I don't know
    what happened to them.

    ----------------

    [1] Now Lord Justice Birss in the Court of Appeal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Birss

    [2] Since morphed into the Intellectual Property Enterprise Court, which
    is part of the High Court rather than a County Court

    --
    Tim Jackson
    news@timjackson.invalid
    (Change '.invalid' to '.plus.com' to reply direct)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From The Todal@21:1/5 to Tim Jackson on Mon Apr 8 19:59:45 2024
    On 08/04/2024 18:40, Tim Jackson wrote:
    On Fri, 5 Apr 2024 11:47:01 +0100, The Todal wrote...

    A solicitor is not allowed to put forward a case which he knows to be
    dishonest or which is unduly oppressive to the opponent.

    My recollection is that years ago, solicitors were sending out letters
    before action to ordinary householders saying that they had been
    discovered downloading unlawful copyright content, and demanding hefty
    sums of compensation to avoid the need for proceedings. If I remember
    rightly, those firms were castigated by the SRA and told to stop doing
    it. If anyone can trace any press reports maybe they can supply a link
    and tell me if my recollection is correct.

    They got their come-uppance at the hands of Judge Colin Birss[1] in the Patents County Court[2] and subsequently in Solicitors Regulation
    Authority disciplinary proceedings as you say. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACS:Law

    Birss decisions:
    https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWPCC/2010/17.html https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWPCC/2010/18.html https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWPCC/2011/6.html https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWPCC/2011/10.html

    I believe there was another firm which carried on similar practices subsequently, but not as solicitors (and so unregulated). I don't know
    what happened to them.

    ----------------

    [1] Now Lord Justice Birss in the Court of Appeal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Birss

    [2] Since morphed into the Intellectual Property Enterprise Court, which
    is part of the High Court rather than a County Court


    Many thanks! Very useful links.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tim Jackson@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 8 22:59:11 2024
    On Mon, 8 Apr 2024 18:40:04 +0100, Tim Jackson wrote...

    [ACS:Law]

    They got their come-uppance at the hands of Judge Colin Birss[1] in the Patents County Court[2] and subsequently in Solicitors Regulation
    Authority disciplinary proceedings as you say. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACS:Law

    Birss decisions:
    https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWPCC/2010/17.html https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWPCC/2010/18.html https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWPCC/2011/6.html https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWPCC/2011/10.html

    ACS:Law had sent a huge number of threatening letters, and started to
    issue proceedings in the Patents County Court against people who hadn't
    paid up immediately.

    They evidently believed, first, that most of those people would cave and
    pay up before their case got anywhere near a judge.

    And second, that if a few defendants still stood their ground, they
    could just withdraw those cases. So it would still get nowhere near a
    judge.

    What they hadn't reckoned on was that Birss had just been appointed,
    with a mandate to revitalise the near-moribund PCC and sort out its
    problems. He started by going through the pending caseload, and spotted
    a large number of near-identical ACS:Law cases.

    Worth reading the decisions I've linked in order, from the first one
    where he evidently smelled a rat, through to subsequent ones where
    ACS:Law tried to withdraw but Birss wouldn't let them, to the final one
    where he awarded costs against the solicitors themselves (not just
    against their puppet client).

    --
    Tim Jackson
    news@timjackson.invalid
    (Change '.invalid' to '.plus.com' to reply direct)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jethro_uk@21:1/5 to Tim Jackson on Tue Apr 9 18:31:17 2024
    On Mon, 08 Apr 2024 22:59:11 +0100, Tim Jackson wrote:

    On Mon, 8 Apr 2024 18:40:04 +0100, Tim Jackson wrote...

    [ACS:Law]

    They got their come-uppance at the hands of Judge Colin Birss[1] in the
    Patents County Court[2] and subsequently in Solicitors Regulation
    Authority disciplinary proceedings as you say.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACS:Law

    Birss decisions:
    https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWPCC/2010/17.html
    https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWPCC/2010/18.html
    https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWPCC/2011/6.html
    https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWPCC/2011/10.html

    ACS:Law had sent a huge number of threatening letters, and started to
    issue proceedings in the Patents County Court against people who hadn't
    paid up immediately.

    They evidently believed, first, that most of those people would cave and
    pay up before their case got anywhere near a judge.

    And second, that if a few defendants still stood their ground, they
    could just withdraw those cases. So it would still get nowhere near a
    judge.

    What they hadn't reckoned on was that Birss had just been appointed,
    with a mandate to revitalise the near-moribund PCC and sort out its
    problems. He started by going through the pending caseload, and spotted
    a large number of near-identical ACS:Law cases.

    Worth reading the decisions I've linked in order, from the first one
    where he evidently smelled a rat, through to subsequent ones where
    ACS:Law tried to withdraw but Birss wouldn't let them, to the final one
    where he awarded costs against the solicitors themselves (not just
    against their puppet client).

    Somewhere I still have the leaked emails.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tim Jackson@21:1/5 to All on Tue Apr 9 21:25:34 2024
    On Mon, 8 Apr 2024 18:40:04 +0100, Tim Jackson wrote...

    I believe there was another firm which carried on similar practices subsequently, but not as solicitors (and so unregulated). I don't know
    what happened to them.

    Golden Eye. Here's their case where they got permission to obtain
    details of potentially infringing customers from O2. https://www.openrightsgroup.org/blog/a-blow-for-speculative-invoicing/

    Golden Eye were represented in court at this stage, but I don't think
    they were subsequently, when they actually started chasing individual customers.

    Unlike ACS:Law, Golden Eye did actually own or have exclusive licences
    under the copyright. This gave them the legal standing ACS:Law lacked.
    And in the light of the ACS:Law case, the court did try to ensure claims
    would be pursued fairly against unrepresented individual internet users.

    But despite the headline in the article, I suspect the court still
    failed to prevent "speculative invoicing", with claims just being
    dropped if the target stood up to them.

    --
    Tim Jackson
    news@timjackson.invalid
    (Change '.invalid' to '.plus.com' to reply direct)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)