In message <l4e02gF1sgU50@mid.individual.net>, at 12:30:08 on Fri, 1 Mar
2024, Simon Parker <simonparkerulm@gmail.com> remarked:

On 29/02/2024 15:49, Roland Perry wrote:

In message <l4936aF1sgU46@mid.individual.net>, at 15:52:41 on Wed, 28
Feb 2024, Simon Parker <simonparkerulm@gmail.com> remarked:

On 28/02/2024 12:48, Roland Perry wrote:

 Why would someone re-advertise a car they've sold?

(1)(a) Locate a vehicle of the same make, model, age, service
history, approximate mileage and condition on eBay.

(1)(b) If one cannot locate one with the same service history,
mileage and condition, attempt to find two references that are as
close a match to the reference vehicle as possible.  (e.g. find one
with higher mileage and one with lower mileage, with / without
service history, in good / poor condition.)  These can be used to >>>demonstrate the effect that service history, low / high mileage and >>>condition have on the price.

(2) Watch the listing(s).

(3) Wait for it (them) to end.

(4) Check one's "Watched" listings being sure to include those that
have ended.  This will detail the price at which the auction finished.

(5)(a) If the vehicle was not sold, repeat the exercise.
(5)(b) If the vehicle was sold, print out the auction page detailing
the vehicles particulars and the price for which it sold and file
these with the IHT paperwork as you now have an independent market >>>valuation for the vehicle.

If you're super cautious, repeat the exercise twice more and average
the price across the three auctions.

A sledgehammer to crack a nut.

The estate is highly likely to be scrutinised by HMRC. In anticipation
of that, my personal choice would be to ensure that all 'i's are dotted
and all 't's are crossed. Jane is free to do as she wishes. I can but >proffer advice.

Let's assume for the sake of argument the estate without the car is
worth £2,010,000, then arguing the toss over a difference in the car's valuation of ~2k either way isn't going to matter.

Alternatively, create an account on AutoTrader and use their "Value
My Vehicle" service.

Or get a Parkers account, which will have much more data input than
just those sold on Autotrader.

Yes, that would do it too.

Which is what I did.

and don't take mileage (or even cosmetic condition) sufficiently >>>>>>into  account.

Depending on the age and value of the vehicle, they're not likely
to make much different.

 You'd be surprised. Low mileage can double the value of a ten year >>>>old car.

I have little to no experience in valuing ten-year-old cars.

Whereas I do.

My lack of experience in obtaining a value for such a vehicle would
give rise to "an abundance of caution" on my part. YMMV.

If you have vast experience in the matter, and have a stated objective
of wanting personal experience in excess of your own, why, may I
respectfully ask, did you raise the issue of valuing a vehicle,

I think you'll find it was yourself who introduced the subject of
valuing the car into the subthread.

especially as you've gone to great lengths to point out your desire to
avoid needless tangents throughout the rest of the thread?

The need less tangents phenomenon arises from me going to great lengths
to explain I was seeking an answer to a very specific question, but was
then inundated with people saying "Don't know, but here's an answer to a completely different question you didn't ask". Which then triggered a
debate about the veracity of that answer I wasn't seeking (at the time,
but much later maybe it could have been one the things I raised as a supplementary).

If you'd said: "I have an account with Parkers which gives auction,
trade and retail prices for cars in poor, fair and good condition do
you think that will suffice for HMRC?", I'd undoubtedly have said "Yes"
and saved us both a considerable amount of back and forth.

I thought I had. Although to begin wit I was reluctant to explore these questions-I-hadn't asked, because so much of what was to follow depended
on the answer to the original question I did ask.

[...]

 With a different hat on, I'm discovering that's a chimera, even >>>>paying  extra for an extended warranty.

Per The Consumer Rights Act 2015 it is an implied term of the
contract between dealer and the purchaser that the goods be as >>>described, fit for purpose, and of satisfactory quality.

Not only is it entirely legally possible to reject a car purchased
from a dealer within the first 30 days and receive a full refund of
the cost paid but I have actually done it.  (For a friend that
purchased a vehicle from a dealer specialising in ex-police cars. 
The car they bought was a car that somebody had part-exchanged for
one of the ex-police cars but it had a number of serious faults >>>including a faulty airbag (which had been masked by disabling the airbag light.)

You were very lucky, most dealers will argue you've accepted the car
as long as you are able to drive it home.

There was no luck involved. That is the law, (specifically introduced
for the purchase of second hand cars from dealers if one followed the
path of the legislation through Parliament, (or goes back and reads
about it in Hansard)).

You were lucky the dealer didn't successfully stonewall you. From having
talked to laymen in the same situation they've given up because the
dealer was so implacable they though he was right, or perhaps didn't
want to throw good money after bad getting a solicitor involved.

In my case, the dealer didn't respond to the initial telephone call so
I sent him a letter formally rejecting the car (thereby preventing the
30 day time limit for rejection from expiring), which he also ignored.
I then sent a formal LBA quoting the relevant legislation, in detail,
along with several articles (from Which?, WhatCar, etc.) clearly >demonstrating that the law was as I'd stated it to be and that his >responsibilities were as I'd detailed them.

I also pointed out that I would have no hesitation in issuing against
him if he didn't provide a full refund and that if I had to do so, I
would ask the courts for costs to be added. I received a phone call
the day the LBA arrived and arrangements were made to return the
vehicle to him and to receive a full refund of the purchase price.

Purchasing from a dealer, even second hand, now has much greater
protection for the consumer.

Only if the consumer "knows his rights" and is confident in making the
case. Most give up in the face of implacable retailers for much simpler
things like the right to return items bought online under DSRs.

Extended warranties are a whole different issue, but the right to
reject a second hand vehicle purchased from a dealer within the first
30 days following purchase can be a very useful protection.

Even if it were in practice possible, there's another 11 months on
the first year's extended warranty to grapple with.

There is no "even if it were in practice possible" - it is the law and
I've used it successfully.

Only because you are very practiced at it.

As for warranties, I've never had an issue with them.

I currently have problem with such a warranty, and it revolves around
what they will and won't pay for. There's pages of small print about
what components in the car they won't touch (generally the ones which
break most often due to wear and tear, or are consumables like brake
pads) but almost nothing about headline issues such as:

You have to arrange to have the vehicle recovered to a repairer at your expense, which they won't remimburse.

They have no list of approved repairers, you have to suggest one and see
if they agree.

They'll reimburse less than half the labour costs that any main dealer
would charge.

You have to be the project manager, they won't get involved in any
progress chasing, even obvious things like getting the repairer to quote
a price.

They'll refuse a claim where it takes the repairer more than 14days to
start the repair, which is extremely tight when many will be quoting six
weeks because hey are "too busy", as are recovery firms who can take up
to a week to actually turn up if the vehicle isn't on a motorway hard
shoulder.

Nobody, either the dealer who sold the warranty, or the warranty
company, will even discuss the possibility of a courtesy car. You might
get lucky with the repairer, but then they'll be funding that by
charging a labour rate in excess of what the insurers will pay.

I've done a straw poll and valued a BMW 320i (as we seem to fixated
on that as a brand), in no particular order:

Motorway £6087
Cazoo    £7675
Carwow   £5775
Parkers  £5815 - Private good
         £5200 - Part exchange

and: WBAC £5,500, but there are conditions, so I had to go back to
the owner to check:

Needs two key fobs (it only has one)
Needs FSH (for some reason the owner stopped getting the service book
  stamped about 5yrs ago; a dealer could bring up the history, but I'm
  not sure if WBAC can.
Only one[2] previous owner (that's a tick, but my Land Rover is the same
  age and has had about four)[1]
6+ months MOT (it's only got three)
Updating the valuation gives £5200 - but also assumes they'll be
happy with the cosmetic condition - they are as picky as car hire >>companies about the slightest scratch, scuff on the bumper, or ding
on an alloy wheel. Not sure what they think about the inevitable
mildew on the window seals.

The valuations on such sites, (I don't know about Parkers but that
might be an exception), have more caveats than the Probate Registry.
(Ed: ba dum tish)

Clearly WBAC has by far the most caveats. The other sites vary when it
comes to asking for information in excess of the reg (which gives the make/model) and mileage.
--
Roland Perry

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In message <l5q99cFjcq3U4@mid.individual.net>, at 07:37:15 on Mon, 18
Mar 2024, Simon Parker <simonparkerulm@gmail.com> remarked:

On 12/03/2024 03:40, Roland Perry wrote:

In message <l4e02gF1sgU50@mid.individual.net>, at 12:30:08 on Fri, 1
Mar 2024, Simon Parker <simonparkerulm@gmail.com> remarked:

On 29/02/2024 15:49, Roland Perry wrote:

 Or get a Parkers account, which will have much more data input
than just  those sold on Autotrader.

Yes, that would do it too.

Which is what I did.

Excellent. No additional assistance required then. :-)

I have little to no experience in valuing ten-year-old cars.

 Whereas I do.

My lack of experience in obtaining a value for such a vehicle would
give rise to "an abundance of caution" on my part.  YMMV.

If you have vast experience in the matter, and have a stated
objective of wanting personal experience in excess of your own, why,
may I respectfully ask, did you raise the issue of valuing a vehicle,

I think you'll find it was yourself who introduced the subject of
valuing the car into the subthread.

I know you'll find it wasn't. Original MIDs are available if you doubt
it. :-)

In this subthread: Message-ID: <l486pjF1sgU35@mid.individual.net>

 You were very lucky, most dealers will argue you've accepted the
car as  long as you are able to drive it home.

There was no luck involved.  That is the law, (specifically
introduced for the purchase of second hand cars from dealers if one >>>followed the path of the legislation through Parliament, (or goes
back and reads about it in Hansard)).

You were lucky the dealer didn't successfully stonewall you. From
having talked to laymen in the same situation they've given up
because the dealer was so implacable they though he was right, or
perhaps didn't want to throw good money after bad getting a solicitor >>involved.

The dealer can stonewall me, but HMCTS less so. Especially when he has
a car lot full of vehicles that can be used to satisfy a judgment.

But you only know that because you are an expert. Most of the public
aren't.

In my case, the dealer didn't respond to the initial telephone call
so I sent him a letter formally rejecting the car (thereby
preventing the 30 day time limit for rejection from expiring), which
he also ignored. I then sent a formal LBA quoting the relevant >>>legislation, in detail, along with several articles (from Which?, >>>WhatCar, etc.) clearly demonstrating that the law was as I'd stated
it to be and that his responsibilities were as I'd detailed them.

I also pointed out that I would have no hesitation in issuing
against him if he didn't provide a full refund and that if I had to
do so, I would ask the courts for costs to be added.  I received a
phone call the day the LBA arrived and arrangements were made to
return the vehicle to him and to receive a full refund of the purchase price.

Purchasing from a dealer, even second hand, now has much greater >>>protection for the consumer.

Only if the consumer "knows his rights" and is confident in making
the case. Most give up in the face of implacable retailers for much >>simpler things like the right to return items bought online under DSRs.

If a consumer is not aware of their rights or is not confident in
enforcing them then legislation is unlikely to be able to assist them.

To such ones I commend the following link:

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/decision-trees/problem-with-a-used-car

 Even if it were in practice possible, there's another 11 months on >>>>the  first year's extended warranty to grapple with.

There is no "even if it were in practice possible" - it is the law
and I've used it successfully.

Only because you are very practiced at it.

Those that aren't can either receive assistance from Citizens Advice,
or similar, without charge or obtain paid for advice from a
professional.

Citizens Advice is not the silver bullet you claim. It might have been
20yrs ago. Here their funding has been withdrawn, the premises they were
loaned by the council repurposed, and people with [only] housing issues
have been referred to a new officer in the District Council's housing department. All other issues have fallen by the wayside.

I would suggest that the latter would be worthwhile for all vehicles
bought from a dealer for around £2K or more, but each would have to do
their own cost/benefit analysis and proceed on that basis.

As for warranties, I've never had an issue with them.

I currently have problem with such a warranty, and it revolves
around what they will and won't pay for. There's pages of small print >>about what components in the car they won't touch (generally the ones >>which break most often due to wear and tear, or are consumables like
brake pads) but almost nothing about headline issues such as:
You have to arrange to have the vehicle recovered to a repairer at
your expense, which they won't remimburse.
They have no list of approved repairers, you have to suggest one and
see if they agree.
They'll reimburse less than half the labour costs that any main
dealer would charge.
You have to be the project manager, they won't get involved in any >>progress chasing, even obvious things like getting the repairer to
quote a price.
They'll refuse a claim where it takes the repairer more than 14days
to start the repair, which is extremely tight when many will be
quoting six weeks because hey are "too busy", as are recovery firms
who can take up to a week to actually turn up if the vehicle isn't on
a motorway hard shoulder.
Nobody, either the dealer who sold the warranty, or the warranty
company, will even discuss the possibility of a courtesy car. You
might get lucky with the repairer, but then they'll be funding that
by charging a labour rate in excess of what the insurers will pay.

I suggest speaking to Citizens Advice [1]

See above

and / or reaching out to the CMA as I think some of the things you have >mentioned are "unfair".

I will certainly pursue the extended warranty company in that regard.

Incidentally, six weeks into this sorry episode the car still hasn't
been repaired, and the JLR Main dealer is ignoring my emails. It's
futile calling them, because all that does is elicit a promise someone
will phone me back, which they never do.

 I've done a straw poll and valued a BMW 320i (as we seem to
fixated on  that as a brand), in no particular order:

 Motorway £6087
Cazoo    £7675
Carwow   £5775
Parkers  £5815 - Private good
          £5200 - Part exchange

 and: WBAC £5,500, but there are conditions, so I had to go back to >>>>the  owner to check:

 Needs two key fobs (it only has one)
Needs FSH (for some reason the owner stopped getting the service book
   stamped about 5yrs ago; a dealer could bring up the history, but I'm >>>>    not sure if WBAC can.
Only one[2] previous owner (that's a tick, but my Land Rover is the same >>>>    age and has had about four)[1]
6+ months MOT (it's only got three)
 Updating the valuation gives £5200 - but also assumes they'll be >>>>happy  with the cosmetic condition - they are as picky as car hire >>>>companies  about the slightest scratch, scuff on the bumper, or ding
on an alloy  wheel. Not sure what they think about the inevitable >>>>mildew on the  window seals.

The valuations on such sites, (I don't know about Parkers but that
might be an exception), have more caveats than the Probate Registry.
(Ed: ba dum tish)

Clearly WBAC has by far the most caveats. The other sites vary when
it comes to asking for information in excess of the reg (which gives
the make/model) and mileage.

WBAC offer a price and then will use anything and everything they can
to lower the price. They also have fees to deduct from the price paid
which can include a fee to get your money either the next day (£25) or >immediately (£30). A friend recently sold a car through Motorway and
the dealer asked for a couple of extra photos of specific things and
then sent a transporter to collect it, payment being transferred as the >vehicle was being loaded on to the transporter.

Regards

S.P.

[1]
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/get-more-help/if-you-need-mor >e-help-about-a-consumer-issue/
[2] general.enquiries [at] cma.gov.uk

--
Roland Perry

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