"Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote in message news:8CdFqAyVtVKmFA1B@perry.uk...

In message <v00h4e$3mneu$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:48:59 on Sat, 20 Apr 2024, billy
bookcase <billy@anon.com> remarked:

IOW, for all practical purposes, its totally impossible for memabers
of the public to safely act upon any of these principles which
you've been at such pains to expound concerning the effects of
stomach contents on blood alcohol levels. This "vital parameter".

Of course they can, if they look up the various papers on the subject, and appreciate
what they say (and no, I won't be doing your homework for you).

The Dawkins Fallacy writ large.

Because everybody is as intelligent as I obviously am, even if they
don't live in North Oxford, they will not only not believe in God or
any of that religious nonsense but will also read up on the latest
research on topics affecting their everyday lives

Or the updated the Dawkins/Perry Fallacy

Confident in the knowledge that not only do those papers
reflect the latest research on those topics, but that they
are all-encompassing, definitive, and the last possible word
on the subject. And so can't possibly be undermined by
any further research on the topic due to be published next
week or next month. That's what that Mr Perry said anyway,
Your Honour.

While for my homework last week I happened to be reading
"Talking To Strangers" * by Malcolm Gladwell which is basically
concerned with truth and lies and in this particular context
how alcohol consumption can affect peoples judgement
when it comes to telling lies themselves, or detecting lies
in others.

It also covers other topics very relevant to the criminal justice
system. "Transparency" is the idea that its possible to read
peoples' minds, their intentions and moods, directly from
their facial expressions. Now while this is true in most
cases (its assumed anyway) in many cases it isn't.
This is called "The Friends Fallacy). Basically because its
reinforced by TV drama and films where (except in villains)
peoples facial expressions exactly mirror if not exaggerate
their intentions.

So that basically if you're an honest person with a shifty
expression you're stuffed. More especially if you're
put on trial for a crime you didn't in fact commit.

Whereas if you're a dishonest person (or a politician) with
an open friendly expression you've got it made. Sometimes
anyway, if you're put on trial for a crime you did commit.

While in particular reference to Auriol Grey there were some
interesting observations about "remorse". And how there
is actually no general consensus as to what facial expression
accompanies remorse. Or how people "show remorse".

Which is relevant given that HH Sean Enright made a point of
claiming that Grey hadn't shown any remorse. Not that she
necessarily should have; but that had she done so, the
all-knowing Enright wouldn't have noticed anyway.

A fuller review of the book is here

https://wrongfulconvictionsreport.org/2021/07/26/talking-to-strangers-why-we-and-police-and-judges-mostly-get-it-wrong/


bb

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On Thu, 25 Apr 2024 08:55:51 +0100, "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> wrote:

While in particular reference to Auriol Grey there were some
interesting observations about "remorse". And how there
is actually no general consensus as to what facial expression
accompanies remorse. Or how people "show remorse".

Which is relevant given that HH Sean Enright made a point of
claiming that Grey hadn't shown any remorse. Not that she
necessarily should have; but that had she done so, the
all-knowing Enright wouldn't have noticed anyway.

While I don't disagree with the main thrust of your response to Roland, I
think you're missing the point here. When a judge (or barrister) says that a defendent "hasn't shown remorse", they don't mean "hasn't had a facial expression indicating remorse". They mean "hasn't spoken words expressing remorse". That is, it's about whether they've said "I'm sorry", or words to that effect, rather than how they come across visually.

The word "shown" is possibly ambiguous in this context, a better one would probably be "expressed". But I think most people would accept that remorse
is generally "shown" by words and deeds rather than body language.

Mark

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"Mark Goodge" <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote in message news:pndk2j98v3of13gjbm2etdoid8ra9btelg@4ax.com...

On Thu, 25 Apr 2024 08:55:51 +0100, "billy bookcase" <billy@anon.com> wrote:

While in particular reference to Auriol Grey there were some
interesting observations about "remorse". And how there
is actually no general consensus as to what facial expression
accompanies remorse. Or how people "show remorse".

Which is relevant given that HH Sean Enright made a point of
claiming that Grey hadn't shown any remorse. Not that she
necessarily should have; but that had she done so, the
all-knowing Enright wouldn't have noticed anyway.

While I don't disagree with the main thrust of your response to Roland, I think you're missing the point here. When a judge (or barrister) says that a defendent "hasn't shown remorse", they don't mean "hasn't had a facial expression indicating remorse". They mean "hasn't spoken words expressing remorse". That is, it's about whether they've said "I'm sorry", or words to that effect, rather than how they come across visually.

The word "shown" is possibly ambiguous in this context, a better one would probably be "expressed". But I think most people would accept that remorse
is generally "shown" by words and deeds rather than body language.

IOW Grey didn't play be the rules, assuming she knew what they were;
and assuming she actually felt she was guilty as charged - was an
actual "killer".

quote:

" Through the prospect of mercy and moral accreditation but also the
concealed threat of violence, judicial discourse shapes the content
of remorse in a way that reflects the context in which it is produced.

If it is appreciated that remorse is not just a psychological trait
inherent in the individual but rather an attribute that is situated in
a specific social context, the impact of juridical discourse on the
shaping of remorse becomes all the more comprehensible.

The form in which remorse must be expressed is that of submission to a
greater power ? the moral performances that are validated all have as their common point of reference a posture of abjection and surrender by the
offender before the authority of the law " (Weisman 2014, p. 44)

Here the concern is that remorse is not a natural reaction to wrongdoing
but is shaped by social expectations; and that in the judicial system
it is shaped both by the coercive context of the threat of (prolonged) punishment, but also by the authority claimed in that coercive context
by the state to pass judgement on what the defendant should feel remorse
for and whether her remorse is adequate

:unquote

https://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/102428/3/The Role of Remorse in Criminal Justice
final.pdf

bb

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In message <v0d2ad$2t0k0$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:55:51 on Thu, 25 Apr
2024, billy bookcase <billy@anon.com> remarked:

Because everybody is as intelligent as I obviously am, even if they
don't live in North Oxford, they will not only not believe in God or
any of that religious nonsense but will also read up on the latest
research on topics affecting their everyday lives

Or the updated the Dawkins/Perry Fallacy

Confident in the knowledge that not only do those papers
reflect the latest research on those topics, but that they
are all-encompassing, definitive, and the last possible word
on the subject. And so can't possibly be undermined by
any further research on the topic due to be published next
week or next month. That's what that Mr Perry said anyway,
Your Honour.

OK, so you don't believe there's such a thing as "drinking on an empty stomach", but there no reason to be rude about it.
--
Roland Perry

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"Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote in message news:4eTENP$16KMmFAUj@perry.uk...

In message <v0d2ad$2t0k0$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:55:51 on Thu, 25 Apr 2024, billy
bookcase <billy@anon.com> remarked:

Because everybody is as intelligent as I obviously am, even if they
don't live in North Oxford, they will not only not believe in God or
any of that religious nonsense but will also read up on the latest
research on topics affecting their everyday lives

Or the updated the Dawkins/Perry Fallacy

Confident in the knowledge that not only do those papers
reflect the latest research on those topics, but that they
are all-encompassing, definitive, and the last possible word
on the subject. And so can't possibly be undermined by
any further research on the topic due to be published next
week or next month. That's what that Mr Perry said anyway,
Your Honour.

OK, so you don't believe there's such a thing as "drinking on an empty stomach", but
there no reason to be rude about it.

So how exacty does a person ascertain whether their stomach
is truly empty or not?

I presume a camera of some kind will be required ?

Starting at the top, ISTR there may be a problem with somthing
called the gag reflex; which is why it may be necessary to go
the long way round, starting at the other end, as it were.

While carefully watching the monitor

Banging on the bathroom door.

"Are you ready yet dear, we were supposed to be there
half an hour ago you know. Are you sure you don't want to
call a cab ? "

Just give me a couple more minutes dear; as I forgot I
needed to change the batteries.


bb



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Simon Parker <simonparkerulm@gmail.com> wrote:

If I could remember the name of the sachet of "TurboLax", anybody taking
that will be "clear" within a few hours. But they also won't be going anywhere for several days either so drink driving will be the least of
their worries. :-)

The one I had before a colonoscopy was Picolax https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/files/pil.915.pdf

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In message <v0qscj$2g2md$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:40:30 on Tue, 30 Apr
2024, billy bookcase <billy@anon.com> remarked:

"Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote in message >news:4eTENP$16KMmFAUj@perry.uk...

In message <v0d2ad$2t0k0$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:55:51 on Thu, 25 Apr >>2024, billy
bookcase <billy@anon.com> remarked:

Because everybody is as intelligent as I obviously am, even if they
don't live in North Oxford, they will not only not believe in God or
any of that religious nonsense but will also read up on the latest >>>research on topics affecting their everyday lives

Or the updated the Dawkins/Perry Fallacy

Confident in the knowledge that not only do those papers
reflect the latest research on those topics, but that they
are all-encompassing, definitive, and the last possible word
on the subject. And so can't possibly be undermined by
any further research on the topic due to be published next
week or next month. That's what that Mr Perry said anyway,
Your Honour.

OK, so you don't believe there's such a thing as "drinking on an
empty stomach", but there no reason to be rude about it.

So how exacty does a person ascertain whether their stomach
is truly empty or not?

By not being "on the spectrum" and taking things too literally. They
might for example remember if they had consumed a meal in the last
eight hours.

--
Roland Perry

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"Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote in message news:hVByv$g$fmMmFA3+@perry.uk...

OK, so you don't believe there's such a thing as "drinking on an empty stomach", but
there no reason to be rude about it.

So how exacty does a person ascertain whether their stomach
is truly empty or not?

By not being "on the spectrum" and taking things too literally.

That being a milder version of being "on the CPC" I assume ?

And in this case involving large quantities of pots, kettles
goalposts etc.

They might for example remember if they had consumed a meal in the last
eight hours.

So the advice is don't drink and drive if you've just got straight out
of bed in the morning or before lunch, basically.


bb

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