• Victims or "perps"?

    From Max Demian@21:1/5 to All on Sat Feb 24 11:57:02 2024
    "Prosecutors target smuggled people who were forced to pilot small boats"

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/23/people-smuggling-gangs-small-boats-home-office-migration

    "Campaigners say Ibrahima Bah should be treated as a victim of
    trafficking after he was forced to steer a boat. Instead he faces at
    least six years in jail"

    FSVO "forced". Sneaky traffickers give migrants free passage in return
    for steering the boats so they can relax in their Romanian palaces (or whatever).

    --
    Max Demian

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  • From GB@21:1/5 to Simon Parker on Thu Feb 29 22:02:51 2024
    On 28/02/2024 14:14, Simon Parker wrote:

    When the conditions became too perilous, he could and should have turned
    the boat around.  That he didn't was his decision and his alone, and he
    must bear the consequences for that decision.



    Mr Bah is being treated as if he were a time-served mariner with many
    years of





    Regards

    S.P.


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  • From GB@21:1/5 to All on Thu Feb 29 22:09:31 2024
    On 29/02/2024 22:02, GB wrote:
    On 28/02/2024 14:14, Simon Parker wrote:

    When the conditions became too perilous, he could and should have
    turned the boat around.  That he didn't was his decision and his
    alone, and he must bear the consequences for that decision.



    Mr Bah is being treated as if he were a time-served mariner with many
    years of


    Oops, try again:

    Mr Bah was treated in court as if he is a time-served mariner with
    years of experience. If that is the case, and he still pressed ahead,
    then I agree with you that he should be held fully responsible.

    On the other hand, if he hadn't a clue about boats, but was chosen at
    random to steer the thing, his culpability is lower.

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  • From JNugent@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 1 00:26:02 2024
    On 29/02/2024 10:09 pm, GB wrote:

    On 29/02/2024 22:02, GB wrote:
    On 28/02/2024 14:14, Simon Parker wrote:

    When the conditions became too perilous, he could and should have
    turned the boat around.  That he didn't was his decision and his
    alone, and he must bear the consequences for that decision.

    Mr Bah is being treated as if he were a time-served mariner with many
    years of

    Oops, try again:

    Mr Bah was treated in court as if he is a time-served mariner with
    years of experience. If that is the case, and he still pressed ahead,
    then I agree with you that he should be held fully responsible.

    On the other hand, if he hadn't a clue about boats, but was chosen at
    random to steer the thing, his culpability is lower.

    Well... he was found guilty, so the jurors (who had the disadvantage of
    hearing all the evidence and being able to assess the likely veracity of witnesses, including the defendant) must have heard that claim from the
    defence - but weren't convinced.

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  • From GB@21:1/5 to JNugent on Fri Mar 1 13:01:19 2024
    On 01/03/2024 00:26, JNugent wrote:
    On 29/02/2024 10:09 pm, GB wrote:

    On 29/02/2024 22:02, GB wrote:
    On 28/02/2024 14:14, Simon Parker wrote:

    When the conditions became too perilous, he could and should have
    turned the boat around.  That he didn't was his decision and his
    alone, and he must bear the consequences for that decision.

    Mr Bah is being treated as if he were a time-served mariner with many
    years of

    Oops, try again:

    Mr Bah was treated in court as if he is a time-served mariner with
    years of experience. If that is the case, and he still pressed ahead,
    then I agree with you that he should be held fully responsible.

    On the other hand, if he hadn't a clue about boats, but was chosen at
    random to steer the thing, his culpability is lower.

    Well... he was found guilty, so the jurors (who had the disadvantage of hearing all the evidence and being able to assess the likely veracity of witnesses, including the defendant) must have heard that claim from the defence - but weren't convinced.

    Is it possible the law is simply that he was, de facto, the skipper, and
    his qualifications, or lack thereof, didn't come into it?

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  • From JNugent@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 1 16:01:18 2024
    On 01/03/2024 01:01 pm, GB wrote:

    On 01/03/2024 00:26, JNugent wrote:
    On 29/02/2024 10:09 pm, GB wrote:
    On 29/02/2024 22:02, GB wrote:
    On 28/02/2024 14:14, Simon Parker wrote:

    When the conditions became too perilous, he could and should have
    turned the boat around.  That he didn't was his decision and his
    alone, and he must bear the consequences for that decision.

    Mr Bah is being treated as if he were a time-served mariner with
    many years of

    Oops, try again:

    Mr Bah was treated in court as if he is a time-served mariner with
    years of experience. If that is the case, and he still pressed ahead,
    then I agree with you that he should be held fully responsible.

    On the other hand, if he hadn't a clue about boats, but was chosen at
    random to steer the thing, his culpability is lower.

    Well... he was found guilty, so the jurors (who had the disadvantage
    of hearing all the evidence and being able to assess the likely
    veracity of witnesses, including the defendant) must have heard that
    claim from the defence - but weren't convinced.

    Is it possible the law is simply that he was, de facto, the skipper, and
    his qualifications, or lack thereof, didn't come into it?

    Possible, I suppose.

    That's the way it would work on the roads with an unlicenced car "driver".

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  • From Mark Goodge@21:1/5 to NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid on Fri Mar 1 19:54:28 2024
    On Thu, 29 Feb 2024 22:09:31 +0000, GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> wrote:

    On 29/02/2024 22:02, GB wrote:
    On 28/02/2024 14:14, Simon Parker wrote:

    When the conditions became too perilous, he could and should have
    turned the boat around.  That he didn't was his decision and his
    alone, and he must bear the consequences for that decision.



    Mr Bah is being treated as if he were a time-served mariner with many
    years of


    Oops, try again:

    Mr Bah was treated in court as if he is a time-served mariner with
    years of experience. If that is the case, and he still pressed ahead,
    then I agree with you that he should be held fully responsible.

    On the other hand, if he hadn't a clue about boats, but was chosen at
    random to steer the thing, his culpability is lower.

    His culpability is lower. That's why he only got nine years, for a crime
    which can attract a life sentence. Had he been a professional, he would have got more.

    Mark

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