I’ve recently submitted my POA document to a couple of financial
institutions so that I can change my mother’s mailing address.

Myself and my sister have financial POA and my brother has welfare POA.
One of the financial institutions is insisting that they need two forms of
ID from my brother despite him having no financial powers.

Sounds like bollocks to me but are they right? If it is bollocks is there anything I can do other than just capitulate?

It’s not a huge issue admittedly but I purposely *didn’t* include my brother’s ID proof in previous correspondence as it seemed utterly
irrelevant to me.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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"Tim+" <timdownieuk@yahoo.co.youkay> wrote in message news:109965512.728250187.299516.timdownieuk-yahoo.co.youkay@news.individual.net...

I've recently submitted my POA document to a couple of financial
institutions so that I can change my mother's mailing address.

quote:

Health and welfare attorneys
As a health and welfare attorney, you make (or help the donor make)
decisions about
things like:

a.. daily routine, for example washing, dressing and eating
b.. medical care
c.. *************where the donor lives**************
unquote


https://www.gov.uk/lasting-power-attorney-duties/health-welfare

Myself and my sister have financial POA and my brother has welfare POA.
One of the financial institutions is insisting that they need two forms of
ID from my brother despite him having no financial powers.

Because he is the person who may be held responsible for your mother's
change of address; regardless of any financial implications which may result


bb

Sounds like bollocks to me but are they right? If it is bollocks is there anything I can do other than just capitulate?

It's not a huge issue admittedly but I purposely *didn't* include my brother's ID proof in previous correspondence as it seemed utterly
irrelevant to me.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 29 Jan 2024 at 21:09:57 GMT, ""billy bookcase"" <billy@anon.com> wrote:

"Tim+" <timdownieuk@yahoo.co.youkay> wrote in message news:109965512.728250187.299516.timdownieuk-yahoo.co.youkay@news.individual. net...

I've recently submitted my POA document to a couple of financial
institutions so that I can change my mother's mailing address.

quote:

Health and welfare attorneys
As a health and welfare attorney, you make (or help the donor make)
decisions about
things like:

a.. daily routine, for example washing, dressing and eating
b.. medical care
c.. *************where the donor lives**************
unquote

https://www.gov.uk/lasting-power-attorney-duties/health-welfare

Myself and my sister have financial POA and my brother has welfare POA.
One of the financial institutions is insisting that they need two forms of >> ID from my brother despite him having no financial powers.

Because he is the person who may be held responsible for your mother's
change of address; regardless of any financial implications which may result

I'm not sure why he should be concerned about a change of *mailing* address (presumably to the US as I know of no-one who has a mailing address in this country) for financial purposes.

--
Roger Hayter

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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billy bookcase <billy@anon.com> wrote:

"Tim+" <timdownieuk@yahoo.co.youkay> wrote in message news:109965512.728250187.299516.timdownieuk-yahoo.co.youkay@news.individual.net...

I've recently submitted my POA document to a couple of financial
institutions so that I can change my mother's mailing address.

quote:

Health and welfare attorneys
As a health and welfare attorney, you make (or help the donor make)
decisions about
things like:

a.. daily routine, for example washing, dressing and eating
b.. medical care
c.. *************where the donor lives**************
unquote

https://www.gov.uk/lasting-power-attorney-duties/health-welfare

Myself and my sister have financial POA and my brother has welfare POA.
One of the financial institutions is insisting that they need two forms of >> ID from my brother despite him having no financial powers.

Because he is the person who may be held responsible for your mother's
change of address; regardless of any financial implications which may result

Her physical address happened some time ago. It’s only her mailing address for her financial correspondence that we wish to change.

Tim


--
Please don't feed the trolls

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Tim+" <timdownieuk@yahoo.co.youkay> wrote in message news:473543348.728261072.968012.timdownieuk-yahoo.co.youkay@news.individual.net...

billy bookcase <billy@anon.com> wrote:

"Tim+" <timdownieuk@yahoo.co.youkay> wrote in message
news:109965512.728250187.299516.timdownieuk-yahoo.co.youkay@news.individual.net...

I've recently submitted my POA document to a couple of financial
institutions so that I can change my mother's mailing address.

quote:

Health and welfare attorneys
As a health and welfare attorney, you make (or help the donor make)
decisions about
things like:

a.. daily routine, for example washing, dressing and eating
b.. medical care
c.. *************where the donor lives**************
unquote


https://www.gov.uk/lasting-power-attorney-duties/health-welfare

Myself and my sister have financial POA and my brother has welfare POA.
One of the financial institutions is insisting that they need two forms of >>> ID from my brother despite him having no financial powers.

Because he is the person who may be held responsible for your mother's
change of address; regardless of any financial implications which may result >>

Her physical address happened some time ago. It's only her mailing address for her financial correspondence that we wish to change.

Prove it.

First up. Changing the donors residential address can have large financial implications if say the donor can be persuaded by ill- intentioned relatives
to move into totally unsuitable property Either by being made to pay extortionate
rent or vacating a desirable property. So much for having "no financial
powers"

I'm actually surprised that only "one" of the financial institutions required ID from your brother.

Without actually checking (and how could anyone in any case ) its probable that around 99% of people's mailing addresses are identical to their physical address.
The PO don't care. They only ever deliver to the persons mailing address, the one on the envelope.

While in some cases it "obviously" isn't; as in the case of say suite 204 Oxford Street
London or C/O Jarndyce and Jarndyce Solicitors.

And yet even in such cases, *unless checks are made* its not impossible that again
ill-intentioned relatives might arranged for the donor to move into a flat above
the premises of the latter in collusion with corrupt solicitors at an extrortionate
rent; without even informing the Health and Welfare Attorney.

IOW its just a further safeguard which financial institutions are fully entitled
to implement for the benefit of donors.

The point about mailing addresses is that they're very specific, Whereas residential
addresses are more difficult to pin down and *prove*..

Now If you're sure that you can "prove" to the relevant financial institutions that
the donor hasn't changed their physical address - although as I said quite how you'd
manage this I'm not sure then go ahead and refuse to provide any ID for your brother,


bb

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 29/01/2024 23:30, Tim+ wrote:

billy bookcase <billy@anon.com> wrote:

"Tim+" <timdownieuk@yahoo.co.youkay> wrote in message
news:109965512.728250187.299516.timdownieuk-yahoo.co.youkay@news.individual.net...

I've recently submitted my POA document to a couple of financial
institutions so that I can change my mother's mailing address.

quote:

Health and welfare attorneys
As a health and welfare attorney, you make (or help the donor make)
decisions about
things like:

a.. daily routine, for example washing, dressing and eating
b.. medical care
c.. *************where the donor lives**************
unquote

+1

I think the Health and Welfare one is less useful than the financial
one. The latter can be essential. But since it does involve decisions
about where to live it becomes relevant here.

https://www.gov.uk/lasting-power-attorney-duties/health-welfare

Myself and my sister have financial POA and my brother has welfare POA.
One of the financial institutions is insisting that they need two forms of >>> ID from my brother despite him having no financial powers.

Because he is the person who may be held responsible for your mother's
change of address; regardless of any financial implications which may result >>

Her physical address happened some time ago. It’s only her mailing address for her financial correspondence that we wish to change.

It is generally easier to play along with whatever restrictions
financial institutions choose to impose. In the interim mail redirection
may help you in the short term. Also beware that an LPoA expires when
the donor does so in theory if the Will is in their safe deposit box in
a bank you can get into an interesting bind. Most bank managers are
pretty sensible about it but you could run into a jobsworth.

Never let the original LPoA out of your sight or send it away to a
financial institution - always work with certified copies. They can and
do lose documents or send them "back" to the wrong person.

Even there lies a problem my copies were certified by my solicitor's
junior dogsbody using the practice stamp rather than a named numbered solicitor's. NS&I refused to accept that copy as correctly certified.
(they were the only ones that refused)

--
Martin Brown

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 19:49 29 Jan 2024, Tim+ said:

I�ve recently submitted my POA document to a couple of financial
institutions so that I can change my mother�s mailing address.

Myself and my sister have financial POA and my brother has welfare
POA. One of the financial institutions is insisting that they need two
forms of ID from my brother despite him having no financial powers.

Sounds like bollocks to me but are they right? If it is bollocks is
there anything I can do other than just capitulate?

It�s not a huge issue admittedly but I purposely *didn�t* include my brother�s ID proof in previous correspondence as it seemed utterly
irrelevant to me.

Tim

Why would a financial institution need to know your brother even exists
if he doesn't have a financial LPA and will have no dealing with them?

Perhaps your particular institution considers the financial LPA and
welfare LPA inevitably come as a matching pair, and therefore asked
about the assumed welfare LPA.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

On 29/01/2024 23:30, Tim+ wrote:

billy bookcase <billy@anon.com> wrote:

"Tim+" <timdownieuk@yahoo.co.youkay> wrote in message
news:109965512.728250187.299516.timdownieuk-yahoo.co.youkay@news.individual.net...

I've recently submitted my POA document to a couple of financial
institutions so that I can change my mother's mailing address.

quote:

Health and welfare attorneys
As a health and welfare attorney, you make (or help the donor make)
decisions about
things like:

a.. daily routine, for example washing, dressing and eating
b.. medical care
c.. *************where the donor lives**************
unquote

+1

We are not discussing where to move my mother, she has been moved. We’re only talking about getting mail redirected to her correct address. The
welfare POA has no role to play in dealing with financial institutions.
Hence their request for the welfare POAs ID proof is just a “rubber stamp exercise” without any thought.

My brother has no right or legal ability to redirect her mail and his
signature is not required on any correspondence with financial
institutions.

Consequently I fail to see why he should have to prove his ID when it comes
to financial matters.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Pamela <uklm@permabulator.33mail.com> wrote:

On 19:49 29 Jan 2024, Tim+ said:

I’ve recently submitted my POA document to a couple of financial
institutions so that I can change my mother’s mailing address.

Myself and my sister have financial POA and my brother has welfare
POA. One of the financial institutions is insisting that they need two
forms of ID from my brother despite him having no financial powers.

Sounds like bollocks to me but are they right? If it is bollocks is
there anything I can do other than just capitulate?

It’s not a huge issue admittedly but I purposely *didn’t* include my
brother’s ID proof in previous correspondence as it seemed utterly
irrelevant to me.

Tim

Why would a financial institution need to know your brother even exists
if he doesn't have a financial LPA and will have no dealing with them?

Financial instructions don’t need to know he exists at all but it seems
that just because he’s mentioned in the POA as for his welfare role, their knee jerk response seems to be that they need proof of his ID. If the POAs
had been drawn up as two separate documents (welfare and finance), which I guess would be legal, they certainly wouldn’t know anything about him.

Perhaps your particular institution considers the financial LPA and
welfare LPA inevitably come as a matching pair, and therefore asked
about the assumed welfare LPA.

Perhaps it would be better if they read and understood the POA?

Tim


--
Please don't feed the trolls

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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"Tim+" <timdownieuk@yahoo.co.youkay> wrote in message news:68014791.728324583.653528.timdownieuk-yahoo.co.youkay@news.individual.net...

Pamela <uklm@permabulator.33mail.com> wrote:

On 19:49 29 Jan 2024, Tim+ said:

I've recently submitted my POA document to a couple of financial
institutions so that I can change my mother's mailing address.

Myself and my sister have financial POA and my brother has welfare
POA. One of the financial institutions is insisting that they need two
forms of ID from my brother despite him having no financial powers.

Sounds like bollocks to me but are they right? If it is bollocks is
there anything I can do other than just capitulate?

It's not a huge issue admittedly but I purposely *didn't* include my
brother's ID proof in previous correspondence as it seemed utterly
irrelevant to me.

Tim

Why would a financial institution need to know your brother even exists
if he doesn't have a financial LPA and will have no dealing with them?

Financial instructions don't need to know he exists at all but it seems
that just because he's mentioned in the POA as for his welfare role, their knee jerk response seems to be that they need proof of his ID. If the POAs had been drawn up as two separate documents (welfare and finance), which I guess would be legal, they certainly wouldn't know anything about him.

Perhaps your particular institution considers the financial LPA and
welfare LPA inevitably come as a matching pair, and therefore asked
about the assumed welfare LPA.

Perhaps it would be better if they read and understood the POA?

Tim

Some people might reasonably conclude that a financial institution
might be more familiar with the types of fraud which may, are possibly
are, being committed by dishonest actors in taking advantage of the
privileges afforded them in their role as POA's. Either acing singly
or in concert. And would be best placed to know which measures to adopt
to best protect the interests of the donor which is their main priority.
Than would an individual such as yourself with very little experience
in these matters - certainly in respect of how such how frauds are
actually perpetrated

In other words it appears to be the case, that nothing anyone could possibly say to you in the matter would succeed in convincing you that you are
mistaken; and thus the only question that remains to be answered is
why you posted your question in the first place

A word of advice however. While nobody has any real reason to doubt your honesty in this matter, your seeming reluctance to comply with such a simple request might nevertheless give rise to wholly unwarranted suspicion .


bb



--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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"Tim+" <timdownieuk@yahoo.co.youkay> wrote in message news:109965512.728250187.299516.timdownieuk-yahoo.co.youkay@news.individual.net...

I've recently submitted my POA document to a couple of financial
institutions so that I can change my mother's mailing address.

Myself and my sister have financial POA and my brother has welfare POA.
One of the financial institutions is insisting that they need two forms of
ID from my brother despite him having no financial powers.

What you appear to have overlooked is the following

quote:

" A Health and Welfare LPA can only be used if the donor has been deemed
to have lost mental capacity by a professional."

unquote:

In which case regardless of their actual role, one might reasonably expect a Health LPA to be informed of *all decisions" made by the other LPA's

As the Health LPA, is "the only other person" who a financial institution
can reasonably assume will act *in the donors best interests*.

So that in the event of their suspecting potentially fraudulent activity
on the part of the financial LPA's, the Health LPA can voice their concerns both to the Office of the Public Guardian and the institution itself.

Which seems to offer a useful further safeguard, even if it does cause
some minor inconvenience to some.


bb

https://www.girlings.com/latest/can-a-lasting-power-of-attorney-be-challenged

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 30 Jan 2024 16:19:44 GMT, Tim+ <timdownieuk@yahoo.co.youkay> wrote:

We are not discussing where to move my mother, she has been moved. We�re >only talking about getting mail redirected to her correct address. The >welfare POA has no role to play in dealing with financial institutions.
Hence their request for the welfare POAs ID proof is just a �rubber stamp >exercise� without any thought.

Do the financial institutions know that she has already moved?

If not, how are they to know that this is just a change of mailing address,
and not a change of physical address?

Mark

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:

On 30 Jan 2024 16:19:44 GMT, Tim+ <timdownieuk@yahoo.co.youkay> wrote:

We are not discussing where to move my mother, she has been moved. We’re >> only talking about getting mail redirected to her correct address. The
welfare POA has no role to play in dealing with financial institutions.
Hence their request for the welfare POAs ID proof is just a “rubber stamp >> exercise” without any thought.

Do the financial institutions know that she has already moved?

Not the ones I’ve been in correspondence with.

If not, how are they to know that this is just a change of mailing address, and not a change of physical address?

Because I’ve provided other documentary evidence of her new abode.

Tim



--
Please don't feed the trolls

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 30/01/2024 19:22, billy bookcase wrote:

"Tim+" <timdownieuk@yahoo.co.youkay> wrote in message news:109965512.728250187.299516.timdownieuk-yahoo.co.youkay@news.individual.net...

I've recently submitted my POA document to a couple of financial
institutions so that I can change my mother's mailing address.

Myself and my sister have financial POA and my brother has welfare POA.
One of the financial institutions is insisting that they need two forms of >> ID from my brother despite him having no financial powers.

What you appear to have overlooked is the following

quote:

" A Health and Welfare LPA can only be used if the donor has been deemed
to have lost mental capacity by a professional."

Where it gets really annoying is when that is made a condition of the
Financial one becoming active. A recalcitrant bank (I won't name it but
they have closed a lot of branches and abbreviate to a compass point)
would not let me do anything until I had obtained a full consultants
diagnosis (which took some considerable time). This was despite the fact
that bills were going unpaid because they correctly concluded that my
father's signature looked nothing like the one they had on file.

unquote:

In which case regardless of their actual role, one might reasonably expect a Health LPA to be informed of *all decisions" made by the other LPA's

As the Health LPA, is "the only other person" who a financial institution
can reasonably assume will act *in the donors best interests*.

So that in the event of their suspecting potentially fraudulent activity
on the part of the financial LPA's, the Health LPA can voice their concerns both to the Office of the Public Guardian and the institution itself.

Which seems to offer a useful further safeguard, even if it does cause
some minor inconvenience to some.

If the OP is upset by this particular trivial ID fracas I'm not sure how
he will survive some organisation being *really* awkward about honouring
an LPoA. I found that financial institutions and employees varied from
being fairly helpful to virtually impossible hide bound jobsworths.

Staff training in what passes for "branches" these days is lamentable.
My brother in laws nearest bank branch is 10 miles away in a cricket
pavilion one afternoon a week and staffed by amateurs :(

There are no longer *any* bank branches in Richmond at all (in the heart
of Rishi Sunak's constituency). Holes in the wall are now just that!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67583574

--
Martin Brown

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On 30 Jan 2024 21:35:35 GMT, Tim+ <timdownieuk@yahoo.co.youkay> wrote:

Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:

On 30 Jan 2024 16:19:44 GMT, Tim+ <timdownieuk@yahoo.co.youkay> wrote:

We are not discussing where to move my mother, she has been moved. We?re >>> only talking about getting mail redirected to her correct address. The
welfare POA has no role to play in dealing with financial institutions.
Hence their request for the welfare POAs ID proof is just a ?rubber stamp >>> exercise? without any thought.

Do the financial institutions know that she has already moved?

Not the ones I�ve been in correspondence with.

Right. Then to them, this is a change of physical address, even if the
actual change has previously happened. So the Welfare POA is relevant.

If not, how are they to know that this is just a change of mailing address, >> and not a change of physical address?

Because I�ve provided other documentary evidence of her new abode.

And, again, that evidence needs to include evidence that the change was authorised by the Welfare POA.

Mark

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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