On 02/01/2024 12:28, Mauro Scarlatti wrote:

Happy New Year! I am the leaseholder of a flat on the top floor of a building in London, where my family and I live.

We have a leak in our master bedroom, coming from the roof of the building. There is already a strong smell of damp in the room, and we have a toddler who sleeps there with us.

We have already called the managing agent, who is also our freeholder, and they say someone should get in touch with us in 3-5 working days. They say a leak is not an emergency, even in someone's bedroom.

When we had similar issues in our building in the past, the leaseholders needed to chase things up for weeks before anyone even showed up. We can't afford for this to happen, otherwise we may have to move into a hotel or something. What are our legal

recourses if we can't get any responses from the managing agent? We can't get the problem fixed ourselves, since we don't have access to the roof.

Thanks,
Mauro

You say you are a leaseholder rather than a tenant (eg, you might have a
lease of say 99 years) and the normal arrangement would be that there is
a buildings insurance policy for the entire building and each tenant contributes towards the premium, via the managing agent.

You should therefore be able to claim for the cost of repairs and
redecoration caused by the water ingress and perhaps even the cost of
temporary alternative accommodation if the water is causing carpets and furnishings to get wet. So you might want to report the matter to
insurers sooner rather than later and seek advice about alternative accommodation. The managing agents should have provided you with the
details of the buildings insurance policy. If not, you are entitled to
demand a copy. It's information that any buyer of your lease would want
to see.

Do you have access to the roof space? Can you establish the cause of the
water leak - eg a missing tile, a flat roof that is at the end of its
life, maybe a water tank or pipework that need fixing?

Depending on the cause I would be tempted to get a workman to fix it and
then demand reimbursement from the agents, but that depends on how
urgent the problem is.

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On 02/01/2024 15:43, Simon Parker wrote:

Shelter believe it is reasonable to ask for problems where there is a
risk of injury or further damage to be fixed within 24 hours but this is
not backed by legislation.

If this were your own roof, you would probably have enormous difficulty
finding someone to look at it, let alone fix it in 24 hours. The sort of
firms that advertise with names like AAAAA1 Emergency ... are rarely
much good, and always extremely expensive. As a leaseholder, I'm not
sure I'd want to set a precedent of such firms being instructed by the
managing agents, as I'd end up picking up the bill in the end.

Particularly at this time of year, it's going to take a few days before
a reputable builder is able to look at the job. After that, it could
take a while to get the work done.

In the OP's position, I would buy a dehumidifier. An electrical one is £150-ish, which is far cheaper than staying in an hotel. If there's only
a small amount of damp, a couple of the chemical dehumidifiers are only
about £10.

Any damage to the OP's flat and belongings should be covered by his own insurance.

Insurance would normally also pay for alternative accommodation if that
is necessary. Unless the insurers are prepared to pay for him to move to
an hotel, I would not suggest the OP does that, as there is no
likelihood of the managing agents paying for it out of leaseholders' funds.

However, it doesn't hurt to put your
expectations in writing and confirm that you've been advised of what
could be considered "reasonable" in the circumstances.

Finally, I would ask them to confirm their liability for making good any property, fixtures, and furnishing affected by the leak in the roof

They don't have any such liability, as long as they organise repairs in
a reasonable timescale. That's why the OP has insurance - I hope.

The leak must be upsetting for the OP, but it would be wrong to
encourage him to spend thousands on an hotel, thinking he'll get it back.

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GB wrote:

Particularly at this time of year, it's going to take a few days before
a reputable builder is able to look at the job. After that, it could
take a while to get the work done.

In the OP's position, I would buy a dehumidifier.

And a bucket.

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"Mauro Scarlatti" <msmscarlatti@gmail.com> wrote in message news:506ce39c-2869-484c-a3ef-0bbe0f398814n@googlegroups.com...

Happy New Year! I am the leaseholder of a flat on the top floor of
a building in London, where my family and I live.

We have a leak in our master bedroom, coming from the roof of the

building. There is already a strong smell of damp in the room, and

we have a toddler who sleeps there with us.

We have already called the managing agent, who is also our freeholder,
and they say someone should get in touch with us in 3-5 working days.

They say a leak is not an emergency, even in someone's bedroom.

Assuming this is a traditional pitched roof, you need to stress to
them that in many cases a leak "is" an emergency; because left
untreated, the effects and damage can only get worse. Costing
"them" more money to eventually fix. You've only now noticed a
leak in your ceiling, but you have no way of knowing its cause.
And without wishing to cause undue alarm this may the result of
loft timbers having finally become saturated over months from a
hole in the roof.
It's in their own interests as much as anyone else's to get someone
into the loft-space and check out the situation as soon possible.
Then emergency repairs may even possible from inside the roof
in the short term and maybe drying out the loft timbers with
a de-humidifier

If it *is* a pitched roof and they don't act, then basically you're
dealing with idiots.

And even with a flat roof, any damage resulting in visible
leaks can only get worse over time. Its not the immediate damage
cause by leaks that they should solely be concerned with - which is
clearly your immediate priority - but the fact that this is
evidence of something being badly wrong, that needs to be
attended to as soon as possible


bb

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On 02/01/2024 18:36, Mauro Scarlatti wrote:

On Tuesday, January 2, 2024 at 6:04:14 PM UTC, GB wrote:

On 02/01/2024 15:43, Simon Parker wrote:

The leak must be upsetting for the OP, but it would be wrong to
encourage him to spend thousands on an hotel, thinking he'll get it back.

Thanks for this and other advice. We are not thinking of moving to a hotel, especially since the water has stopped coming down. There is still a strong smell of damp in the room, however the problem has stopped getting worse, at least for the moment.

We just need the leaseholder or managing agent to find the cause of the problem and fix it as soon as possible.

Once the leak in the roof is fixed, are the managing agent or their building insurance responsible for fixing any damage inside our flat? By the way, all the damage so far is on the ceiling and walls. No contents have been damaged yet.

You should have your own insurance for the fabric of the flat, which
will cover the walls and ceiling. This is usually organised as a block insurance by the managing agents. You'd claim on that.

I strongly recommend getting something like this to dry the flat out a
bit, if it's smelling damp:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Interior-Dehumidifier-Condensation-Moisture-Absorber/dp/B0CGVC1GYB

Maybe turn the heating up and open the window.

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billy bookcase <billy@anon.com> wrote:

It's in their own interests as much as anyone else's to get someone
into the loft-space and check out the situation as soon possible.
Then emergency repairs may even possible from inside the roof
in the short term and maybe drying out the loft timbers with
a de-humidifier

Practically speaking, I'd ask the agents for access to the roof space in the first instance. Yes it may be their responsibility to repair the leak, but ultimately all the leaseholders will be footing the bill (via the sinking
fund or similar). It's in everyone's interests to minimise the damage.

It's a lot easier to show up their office and ask for the key to the loft access, rather than demand they call out a roofer for whom they may well
not have someone on hand and resort to picking one at random, who may not be able to come for days. Especially given winter storms, roofers are
typically busy at this time of year.

If it's possible for you or another leaseholder to go up there and look for clues as to where the water's coming from (take a video) that will expedite things, since then they'll know if it's a roofer or a plumber that's needed.

Often 'damp' problems can involve multiple trades (roofing, plumbing, insulation, ventilation) and it isn't going to help much if you call a
roofer only to discover it's a plumbing problem. Even if you can't tell yourself, the agent can send the video to someone who can - and then turn up for the job equipped with the right items.

Theo

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On 02/01/2024 19:54, GB wrote:

On 02/01/2024 18:36, Mauro Scarlatti wrote:

On Tuesday, January 2, 2024 at 6:04:14 PM UTC, GB wrote:

Thanks for this and other advice. We are not thinking of moving to a
hotel, especially since the water has stopped coming down. There is
still a strong smell of damp in the room, however the problem has
stopped getting worse, at least for the moment. We just need the
leaseholder or managing agent to find the cause of the problem and fix
it as soon as possible.

Once the leak in the roof is fixed, are the managing agent or their
building insurance responsible for fixing any damage inside our flat?
By the way, all the damage so far is on the ceiling and walls. No
contents have been damaged yet.

You should have your own insurance for the fabric of the flat, which
will cover the walls and ceiling. This is usually organised as a block insurance by the managing agents. You'd claim on that.

I strongly recommend getting something like this to dry the flat out a
bit,  if it's smelling damp:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Interior-Dehumidifier-Condensation-Moisture-Absorber/dp/B0CGVC1GYB

Maybe turn the heating up and open the window.

We don't live in a flat, but an old house. It's very pretty, but it
tends to be damp.

We bought an electric dehumidifier to help with some of the leaks (now
fixed) and found it's a great help with the washing. Some things that
can't go in a tumble drier will dry really quickly on a rack in a room
with a dehumidifier running. As you have a toddler I am sure you have
lots and LOTS of washing!

Good luck
Andy

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On Thu, 04 Jan 2024 21:22:51 +0000, Vir Campestris wrote:

On 02/01/2024 19:54, GB wrote:

[quoted text muted]

We don't live in a flat, but an old house. It's very pretty, but it
tends to be damp.

We bought an electric dehumidifier to help with some of the leaks (now fixed) and found it's a great help with the washing.

In any discussion around heated drying racks I make exactly the same
point. Generally to zero interest.

FWIW, with us getting older and keeping windows closed at night, a couple
of £30 cheapy dehumidifiers have kept the windows condensation free.

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On 05/01/2024 13:01, Jethro_uk wrote:

On Thu, 04 Jan 2024 21:22:51 +0000, Vir Campestris wrote:

On 02/01/2024 19:54, GB wrote:

[quoted text muted]

We don't live in a flat, but an old house. It's very pretty, but it
tends to be damp.

We bought an electric dehumidifier to help with some of the leaks (now
fixed) and found it's a great help with the washing.

In any discussion around heated drying racks I make exactly the same
point. Generally to zero interest.

FWIW, with us getting older and keeping windows closed at night, a couple
of £30 cheapy dehumidifiers have kept the windows condensation free.

And let's not forget that condensation on windows or bathroom tiles
often leads to black mould growth which is very unhealthy as well as
unsightly.

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On 05/01/2024 13:01, Jethro_uk wrote:

FWIW, with us getting older and keeping windows closed at night, a couple
of £30 cheapy dehumidifiers have kept the windows condensation free.

Can you provide a linky please?

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On Fri, 05 Jan 2024 14:08:09 +0000, GB wrote:

On 05/01/2024 13:01, Jethro_uk wrote:

FWIW, with us getting older and keeping windows closed at night, a
couple of £30 cheapy dehumidifiers have kept the windows condensation
free.

Can you provide a linky please?

we got

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0B72FV9PF

for £29 black Friday. When we realised it was a great little box the
price had jumped so for the same £28 we went for

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0CB3QX1TW

Both pulling about 50ml a day out of the air. But most importantly the
windows are bone dry now. And you can "taste" fresher air.

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On 05/01/2024 15:24, Jethro_uk wrote:

On Fri, 05 Jan 2024 14:08:09 +0000, GB wrote:

On 05/01/2024 13:01, Jethro_uk wrote:

FWIW, with us getting older and keeping windows closed at night, a
couple of £30 cheapy dehumidifiers have kept the windows condensation
free.

Can you provide a linky please?

we got

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0B72FV9PF

for £29 black Friday. When we realised it was a great little box the
price had jumped so for the same £28 we went for

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0CB3QX1TW

Both pulling about 50ml a day out of the air. But most importantly the windows are bone dry now. And you can "taste" fresher air.

The top one claims 250ml per day, second 350, which is very little in a
room has any ventilation. Also their efficiency drops dramatically with temperature and these are rated at 80% RH which very high in comparison
with a warm room in the winter that is going to be closer to 40%.

I also can't see any power consumption ratings. Most dehumidifiers
consume quite a bit. These use thermoelectric coolers which aren't very efficient.

I'm therefore sceptical on your findings. Perhaps turn it off and see
how long your partner takes to say the windows have condensation forming?

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On 05/01/2024 15:24, Jethro_uk wrote:

On Fri, 05 Jan 2024 14:08:09 +0000, GB wrote:

On 05/01/2024 13:01, Jethro_uk wrote:

FWIW, with us getting older and keeping windows closed at night, a
couple of £30 cheapy dehumidifiers have kept the windows condensation
free.

Can you provide a linky please?

we got

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0B72FV9PF

for £29 black Friday. When we realised it was a great little box the
price had jumped so for the same £28 we went for

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0CB3QX1TW

Both pulling about 50ml a day out of the air. But most importantly the windows are bone dry now. And you can "taste" fresher air.

Thanks for the links. I'm used to the ones that can draw several litres
of moisture a day.

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On Fri, 05 Jan 2024 18:18:21 +0000, Fredxx wrote:

On 05/01/2024 15:24, Jethro_uk wrote:

On Fri, 05 Jan 2024 14:08:09 +0000, GB wrote:

On 05/01/2024 13:01, Jethro_uk wrote:

FWIW, with us getting older and keeping windows closed at night, a
couple of £30 cheapy dehumidifiers have kept the windows condensation >>>> free.

Can you provide a linky please?

we got

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0B72FV9PF

for £29 black Friday. When we realised it was a great little box the
price had jumped so for the same £28 we went for

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0CB3QX1TW

Both pulling about 50ml a day out of the air. But most importantly the
windows are bone dry now. And you can "taste" fresher air.

The top one claims 250ml per day, second 350, which is very little in a
room has any ventilation. Also their efficiency drops dramatically with temperature and these are rated at 80% RH which very high in comparison
with a warm room in the winter that is going to be closer to 40%.

I also can't see any power consumption ratings. Most dehumidifiers
consume quite a bit. These use thermoelectric coolers which aren't very efficient.

I'm therefore sceptical on your findings. Perhaps turn it off and see
how long your partner takes to say the windows have condensation
forming?

All I can tell you is we had condensation without and none with.

We do have a BFO dehumidifier we bought after a roof leak (compressor
etc). That pulls a litre a day and is what we keep in the front "drying"
room ....

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On Fri, 05 Jan 2024 19:10:26 +0000, GB wrote:

On 05/01/2024 15:24, Jethro_uk wrote:

On Fri, 05 Jan 2024 14:08:09 +0000, GB wrote:

On 05/01/2024 13:01, Jethro_uk wrote:

FWIW, with us getting older and keeping windows closed at night, a
couple of £30 cheapy dehumidifiers have kept the windows condensation >>>> free.

Can you provide a linky please?

we got

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0B72FV9PF

for £29 black Friday. When we realised it was a great little box the
price had jumped so for the same £28 we went for

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0CB3QX1TW

Both pulling about 50ml a day out of the air. But most importantly the
windows are bone dry now. And you can "taste" fresher air.

Thanks for the links. I'm used to the ones that can draw several litres
of moisture a day.

In which case I can recommend eBac. Can't fault ours and the customer
service is excellent. Made in the UK too.

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On 13/01/2024 16:43, Mauro Scarlatti wrote:

On Sunday, January 7, 2024 at 8:08:37 PM UTC, Simon Parker wrote:

Glad you got sorted and thank you for taking the time and trouble to
provide an update.

Thanks. Unfortunately it looks like the management agent still doesn't know where the leak came from. We have asked for a copy of the report from the roofing contractor.

The problem is that, although we are on the top floor, there is another flat on the roof, which is right on top of the area where the leak occurred. This is one of the "social housing" units which the developer agreed to provide for the council. This

flat is not considered part of our building and it has a separate entrance. The tenant inside it says that there is no leak, however the water can't have come from anywhere else. What can we do if the report from the contractor fails to identify the
source of the leak? No water has come through since 1 January, and our building insurance has agreed to send another contractor to fix the damage in our bedroom, however we aren't sure it's a good idea to do that until we know that the original problem
has been fixed, otherwise it might happen again.

The upstairs flat may have had a leak from the washing machine or
something like that. The water goes down into your flat, and the tenant
is cheerfully unaware. The next time this happens go and speak to the
tenant. In the meantime, get the decorations fixed.

Thanks,
Mauro

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