https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/27/british-born-man-who-has- never-left-uk-faces-deportation

Since the person in question does not possess a passport of any stripe,
what would be the situation if Portugal refused to accept them ?

Just because the UK says they are a Portuguese citizen don't may it so.

Are there are parallels with the Shemima Begum case ?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Jethro_uk" <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> wrote in message news:umhaid$33rds$7@dont-email.me...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/27/british-born-man-who-has- never-left-uk-faces-deportation

Since the person in question does not possess a passport of any stripe,
what would be the situation if Portugal refused to accept them ?

Just because the UK says they are a Portuguese citizen don't may it so.

Are there are parallels with the Shemima Begum case ?

Er no.

While Mr Lima doesn't have a passport, as he couldn't afford it, being born in the UK he surely can produce a UK Birth Certificate.

quote

The following evidence could be provided to prove British Citizenship: a British
passport.
* a British birth certificate*. Certificate of Naturalisation.

unquote

https://faq.nhsbsa.nhs.uk/knowledgebase/article/KA-03337/en-us

In which case, wouldn't it be impossible to deport him ?

AIUI there was no question as to Shimama Begums place of birth the UK
or her original UK Citizenship; which she then chose to renounce


bb

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 27/12/2023 14:42, billy bookcase wrote:

"Jethro_uk" <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> wrote in message news:umhaid$33rds$7@dont-email.me...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/27/british-born-man-who-has-
never-left-uk-faces-deportation

Since the person in question does not possess a passport of any stripe,
what would be the situation if Portugal refused to accept them ?

Just because the UK says they are a Portuguese citizen don't may it so.

Are there are parallels with the Shemima Begum case ?

Er no.

While Mr Lima doesn't have a passport, as he couldn't afford it, being born in
the UK he surely can produce a UK Birth Certificate.

quote

The following evidence could be provided to prove British Citizenship: a British
passport.
* a British birth certificate*. Certificate of Naturalisation.

At least one of the parents must be a UK citizen for birth in the UK to
confer citizenship. So, unlike a British passport or a Certificate of Naturalisation, which are both proof positive, a British birth
certificate is only a potential proof of British citizenship.

unquote

https://faq.nhsbsa.nhs.uk/knowledgebase/article/KA-03337/en-us

In which case, wouldn't it be impossible to deport him ?

AIUI there was no question as to Shimama Begums place of birth the UK
or her original UK Citizenship; which she then chose to renounce

bb

--
Colin Bignell

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 27/12/2023 13:58, Jethro_uk wrote:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/27/british-born-man-who-has- never-left-uk-faces-deportation

Since the person in question does not possess a passport of any stripe,
what would be the situation if Portugal refused to accept them ?

Just because the UK says they are a Portuguese citizen don't may it so.

Similarly,

“Losing the life I’ve built in the UK would be devastating, both
mentally and emotionally,” he wrote in a personal statement included in
his appeal bundle. “I consider the UK as my home as it’s where I have
spent my entire life.”

don't make him a British citizen either.

And it seems that's all he's got.

His excuse that he "had not previously applied for a UK passport as he
could not afford to pay the fees" (a) doesn't ring true since he was
apparently supplying Class A drugs which don't come cheap, and (b) has
nothing to do with it. You need British citizenship in order to apply
for a British passport, not just money. And it seems he was not
entitled to it and wasn't at all bothered to acquire it, so couldn't
apply for one anyway.

Are there are parallels with the Shemima Begum case ?

Being born to Portuguese parents undoubtedly makes him a Portuguese
national, just as you would be British if you were born to British
parents abroad. So, since he has a non-British nationality, the
Secretary of State, ie the Home Secretary, is perfectly entitled under
Section 40 of the Nationality Act 1981 to deprive him of any British citizenship, if he has any, on the basis that the deprivation would be conducive to the public good. Which is just what happened with Shamima
Begum. Or just to deport him.

Portugal would not be entitled under international law to refuse entry
to one of its own citizens, whether or not he has a passport, since that
would effectively render him stateless, which would be contrary to
various conventions on the matter.

It's interesting that the man is 28 years old but there appears to be no
record of his being here or being visible to any of the authorities. If
all he has been doing is the sort of thing he has been convicted of, and sentenced to 4 and a half years for, I can quite see why his presence
here is not conducive to the public good.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wed, 27 Dec 2023 14:42:55 -0000, billy bookcase wrote...

AIUI there was no question as to Shimama Begums place of birth the UK
or her original UK Citizenship; which she then chose to renounce

It was stripped from her by the Government, rather than renouncing it
herself.

--
Tim Jackson
news@timjackson.invalid
(Change '.invalid' to '.plus.com' to reply direct)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2023-12-27, Colin Bignell <cpb@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk> wrote:

On 27/12/2023 14:42, billy bookcase wrote:

"Jethro_uk" <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> wrote in message
news:umhaid$33rds$7@dont-email.me...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/27/british-born-man-who-has- >>> never-left-uk-faces-deportation

Since the person in question does not possess a passport of any stripe,
what would be the situation if Portugal refused to accept them ?

Just because the UK says they are a Portuguese citizen don't may it so.

Are there are parallels with the Shemima Begum case ?

Er no.

While Mr Lima doesn't have a passport, as he couldn't afford it,
being born in the UK he surely can produce a UK Birth Certificate.

quote

The following evidence could be provided to prove British
Citizenship: a British passport.
* a British birth certificate*. Certificate of Naturalisation.

At least one of the parents must be a UK citizen for birth in the UK to confer citizenship.

One of the parents must be a British citizen *or* "settled" in the UK.
It would seem likely that the person in this case would qualify under
that rule, but the Home Office is harassing him regardless, whether
due to their incompetence or their malice or a combination of both
is hard to say.

So, unlike a British passport or a Certificate of Naturalisation,
which are both proof positive, a British birth certificate is only a potential proof of British citizenship.

Indeed. A British birth certificate is certainly not proof of
citizenship on its own (especially one dated after January 1983).

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 27/12/2023 17:41, Jon Ribbens wrote:

On 2023-12-27, Colin Bignell <cpb@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk> wrote:

On 27/12/2023 14:42, billy bookcase wrote:

"Jethro_uk" <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> wrote in message
news:umhaid$33rds$7@dont-email.me...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/27/british-born-man-who-has- >>>> never-left-uk-faces-deportation

Since the person in question does not possess a passport of any stripe, >>>> what would be the situation if Portugal refused to accept them ?

Just because the UK says they are a Portuguese citizen don't may it so. >>>>
Are there are parallels with the Shemima Begum case ?

Er no.

While Mr Lima doesn't have a passport, as he couldn't afford it,
being born in the UK he surely can produce a UK Birth Certificate.

quote

The following evidence could be provided to prove British
Citizenship: a British passport.
* a British birth certificate*. Certificate of Naturalisation.

At least one of the parents must be a UK citizen for birth in the UK to
confer citizenship.

One of the parents must be a British citizen *or* "settled" in the UK.

Is that settled, as being domiciled in the country, or settled as in
having applied for and been granted settled status under the post-Brexit
rules for EU citizens?

It would seem likely that the person in this case would qualify under
that rule, but the Home Office is harassing him regardless, whether
due to their incompetence or their malice or a combination of both
is hard to say.

So, unlike a British passport or a Certificate of Naturalisation,
which are both proof positive, a British birth certificate is only a
potential proof of British citizenship.

Indeed. A British birth certificate is certainly not proof of
citizenship on its own (especially one dated after January 1983).

--
Colin Bignell

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2023-12-27, Colin Bignell <cpb@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk> wrote:

On 27/12/2023 17:41, Jon Ribbens wrote:

One of the parents must be a British citizen *or* "settled" in the UK.

Is that settled, as being domiciled in the country, or settled as in
having applied for and been granted settled status under the post-Brexit rules for EU citizens?

It's nothing to do with EU settled status, it's "settled" as defined in
section 50 subsections (2) to (4) of the British Nationality Act 1981.

Basically, plus or minus a few exceptions, it means someone who is
"ordinarily resident in the UK" and who is legally here and not on
a time-limited visa.

If a parent applies for a passport for their child soon after birth
then it's generally quite straightforward to supply the necessary
evidence. The problems arise when they don't do so (and they may well
not have done so, as until 1998 children didn't need their own
passports), and the child grows up and lives in the UK for many years
without their citizenship being challenged. Then for one reason or
another they need to prove it and they find they can't, because while
they can show their birth certificate easily, proving that their
parent(s) were "settled" on a particular date many decades previously
can be nigh impossible.

(As I've mentioned before, I know someone who was in this position,
of having been born British in the 1980s but unable to prove it and
therefore had to go through "naturalisation" in order to get
documentation to prove the British citizenship they'd actually always
had.)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Colin Bignell <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

One of the parents must be a British citizen *or* "settled" in the UK.

Is that settled, as being domiciled in the country, or settled as in
having applied for and been granted settled status under the post-Brexit rules for EU citizens?

How does that work if the parent died before 2016?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 27/12/2023 18:54, Theo wrote:

Colin Bignell <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

One of the parents must be a British citizen *or* "settled" in the UK.

Is that settled, as being domiciled in the country, or settled as in
having applied for and been granted settled status under the post-Brexit
rules for EU citizens?

How does that work if the parent died before 2016?

From Jon's reply it is quite irrelevant. However, my thought line was
that the article says the Home Office has no record of him having been
in the country. To me, that suggests he might not have a National
Insurance number and possibly not even a National Health Number. If so,
that further suggests that the family might not be very particular about filling in official forms, which would be consistent with him being
imprisoned for drug and firearms offences. Hence, perhaps his parents
did not have settled status under the post-Brexit rules. However, as
settled simply means domiciled in the UK, none of that applies.

--
Colin Bignell

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

<snip>

AIUI there was no question as to Shimama Begums place of birth the UK
or her original UK Citizenship; which she then chose to renounce

When did she renounce her citizenship?

Is there some article about the matter in the Daily Mail or somewhere
you can quote?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Am 27/12/2023 um 13:58 schrieb Jethro_uk:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/27/british-born-man-who-has- never-left-uk-faces-deportation

Since the person in question does not possess a passport of any stripe,
what would be the situation if Portugal refused to accept them ?

Just because the UK says they are a Portuguese citizen don't may it so.

Are there are parallels with the Shemima Begum case ?

You are asking the wrong question. The right question would be: would
Portugal accept that he is a Portuguese national? I doubt it.



--
Ottavio Caruso

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Am 27/12/2023 um 14:42 schrieb billy bookcase:

"Jethro_uk" <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> wrote in message news:umhaid$33rds$7@dont-email.me...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/27/british-born-man-who-has-
never-left-uk-faces-deportation

Since the person in question does not possess a passport of any stripe,
what would be the situation if Portugal refused to accept them ?

Just because the UK says they are a Portuguese citizen don't may it so.

Are there are parallels with the Shemima Begum case ?

Er no.

While Mr Lima doesn't have a passport, as he couldn't afford it, being born in
the UK he surely can produce a UK Birth Certificate.

quote

The following evidence could be provided to prove British Citizenship: a British
passport.
* a British birth certificate*. Certificate of Naturalisation.

unquote

https://faq.nhsbsa.nhs.uk/knowledgebase/article/KA-03337/en-us

In which case, wouldn't it be impossible to deport him ?

AIUI there was no question as to Shimama Begums place of birth the UK
or her original UK Citizenship; which she then chose to renounce

bb

Does being born in UK mean that you are automatically a British citizen?


--
Ottavio Caruso

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Am 27/12/2023 um 18:38 schrieb Colin Bignell:

Is that settled, as being domiciled in the country, or settled as in
having applied for and been granted settled status under the post-Brexit rules for EU citizens?

The latter is a very recent thing. The concept of "settled" for EU
citizens didn't apply before 2018. I know. I was one of the first to
apply for EUSS when it was still in beta.

--
Ottavio Caruso

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2023-12-28, Ottavio Caruso <ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com> wrote:

Am 27/12/2023 um 13:58 schrieb Jethro_uk:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/27/british-born-man-who-has-
never-left-uk-faces-deportation

Since the person in question does not possess a passport of any stripe,
what would be the situation if Portugal refused to accept them ?

Just because the UK says they are a Portuguese citizen don't may it so.

Are there are parallels with the Shemima Begum case ?

You are asking the wrong question. The right question would be: would Portugal accept that he is a Portuguese national? I doubt it.

By the looks of it, if his birth was registered with the Portuguese
consulate then he is a Portuguese citizen and Portugal would be highly
unlikely to refuse to accept him. If it wasn't then he isn't a
Portuguese citizen unless he has chosen to claim citizenship, in which
case I doubt that the UK can deport him. They might be able to detain
him indefinitely though I suppose.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2023-12-28, Ottavio Caruso <ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com> wrote:

Am 27/12/2023 um 14:42 schrieb billy bookcase:

AIUI there was no question as to Shimama Begums place of birth the UK
or her original UK Citizenship; which she then chose to renounce

Does being born in UK mean that you are automatically a British citizen?

No. See my previous posts on that topic in this thread.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Fredxx" <fredxx@spam.invalid> wrote in message news:uminnk$8dds$1@dont-email.me...

<snip>

AIUI there was no question as to Shimama Begums place of birth the UK
or her original UK Citizenship; which she then chose to renounce

When did she renounce her citizenship?

Is there some article about the matter in the Daily Mail or somewhere
you can quote?

I wrongly assumed that would have been a condition of her being
initiated into ISIS; as being symbolic of her total commitment
to the cause.

However quite possibly ISIS are more free and easy in such matters
than might be imagined.


bb

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2023-12-28, JNugent <jnugent@mail.com> wrote:

On 28/12/2023 03:07 pm, Jon Ribbens wrote:

On 2023-12-28, Ottavio Caruso <ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com> wrote:

Am 27/12/2023 um 13:58 schrieb Jethro_uk:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/27/british-born-man-who-has- >>>> never-left-uk-faces-deportation

Since the person in question does not possess a passport of any stripe, >>>> what would be the situation if Portugal refused to accept them ?

Just because the UK says they are a Portuguese citizen don't may it so. >>>>
Are there are parallels with the Shemima Begum case ?

You are asking the wrong question. The right question would be: would
Portugal accept that he is a Portuguese national? I doubt it.

By the looks of it, if his birth was registered with the Portuguese
consulate then he is a Portuguese citizen and Portugal would be highly
unlikely to refuse to accept him. If it wasn't then he isn't a
Portuguese citizen unless he has chosen to claim citizenship, in which
case I doubt that the UK can deport him. They might be able to detain
him indefinitely though I suppose.

You say: "...claim citizenship".

Did you mean to add "and has been awarded"?

No.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 28/12/2023 03:07 pm, Jon Ribbens wrote:

On 2023-12-28, Ottavio Caruso <ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com> wrote:

Am 27/12/2023 um 13:58 schrieb Jethro_uk:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/27/british-born-man-who-has- >>> never-left-uk-faces-deportation

Since the person in question does not possess a passport of any stripe,
what would be the situation if Portugal refused to accept them ?

Just because the UK says they are a Portuguese citizen don't may it so.

Are there are parallels with the Shemima Begum case ?

You are asking the wrong question. The right question would be: would
Portugal accept that he is a Portuguese national? I doubt it.

By the looks of it, if his birth was registered with the Portuguese
consulate then he is a Portuguese citizen and Portugal would be highly unlikely to refuse to accept him. If it wasn't then he isn't a
Portuguese citizen unless he has chosen to claim citizenship, in which
case I doubt that the UK can deport him. They might be able to detain
him indefinitely though I suppose.

You say: "...claim citizenship".

Did you mean to add "and has been awarded"?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 28/12/2023 15:07, Jon Ribbens wrote:

On 2023-12-28, Ottavio Caruso <ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com> wrote:

Am 27/12/2023 um 13:58 schrieb Jethro_uk:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/27/british-born-man-who-has- >>> never-left-uk-faces-deportation

Since the person in question does not possess a passport of any stripe,
what would be the situation if Portugal refused to accept them ?

Just because the UK says they are a Portuguese citizen don't may it so.

Are there are parallels with the Shemima Begum case ?

You are asking the wrong question. The right question would be: would
Portugal accept that he is a Portuguese national? I doubt it.

By the looks of it, if his birth was registered with the Portuguese
consulate then he is a Portuguese citizen and Portugal would be highly unlikely to refuse to accept him. If it wasn't then he isn't a
Portuguese citizen unless he has chosen to claim citizenship,

No, that's a complete misunderstanding. Nationality does not require
any claiming. It's something we all have, as of right, automatically,
at birth, according to international convention and the laws of the land.

It's why *you* and I are British despite never having had to claim it.

in which
case I doubt that the UK can deport him. They might be able to detain
him indefinitely though I suppose.

We can deport anyone with a nationality other than British. It's a
sovereign nation's right.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 28/12/2023 12:21, Ottavio Caruso wrote:

Am 27/12/2023 um 14:42 schrieb billy bookcase:

"Jethro_uk" <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> wrote in message
news:umhaid$33rds$7@dont-email.me...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/27/british-born-man-who-has- >>> never-left-uk-faces-deportation

Since the person in question does not possess a passport of any stripe,
what would be the situation if Portugal refused to accept them ?

Just because the UK says they are a Portuguese citizen don't may it so.

Are there are parallels with the Shemima Begum case ?

Er no.

While Mr Lima doesn't have a passport, as he couldn't afford it,
being born in
the UK he surely can produce a UK Birth Certificate.

quote

The following evidence could be provided to prove British Citizenship:
a British
passport.
* a British birth certificate*. Certificate of Naturalisation.

unquote

https://faq.nhsbsa.nhs.uk/knowledgebase/article/KA-03337/en-us

In which case, wouldn't it be impossible to deport him ?

AIUI there was no question as to Shimama Begums place of birth the UK
or her original UK Citizenship; which she then chose to renounce

Does being born in UK mean that you are automatically a British citizen?

No.

It's the nationality of the parents that is generally determinative.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 28/12/2023 07:37 pm, Jon Ribbens wrote:

On 2023-12-28, JNugent <jnugent@mail.com> wrote:

On 28/12/2023 03:07 pm, Jon Ribbens wrote:

On 2023-12-28, Ottavio Caruso <ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com> wrote: >>>> Am 27/12/2023 um 13:58 schrieb Jethro_uk:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/27/british-born-man-who-has- >>>>> never-left-uk-faces-deportation

Since the person in question does not possess a passport of any stripe, >>>>> what would be the situation if Portugal refused to accept them ?

Just because the UK says they are a Portuguese citizen don't may it so. >>>>>
Are there are parallels with the Shemima Begum case ?

You are asking the wrong question. The right question would be: would
Portugal accept that he is a Portuguese national? I doubt it.

By the looks of it, if his birth was registered with the Portuguese
consulate then he is a Portuguese citizen and Portugal would be highly
unlikely to refuse to accept him. If it wasn't then he isn't a
Portuguese citizen unless he has chosen to claim citizenship, in which
case I doubt that the UK can deport him. They might be able to detain
him indefinitely though I suppose.

You say: "...claim citizenship".

Did you mean to add "and has been awarded"?

No.

So someone who is not a British citizen but has made an unsuccessful
claim for British citizenship is nevertheless a British citizen despite
their "claim" having been turned down?

How does that work?

Asking for a friend.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 16:41:04 +0000, Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> wrote:

On 28/12/2023 15:07, Jon Ribbens wrote:

On 2023-12-28, Ottavio Caruso <ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com> wrote:

Am 27/12/2023 um 13:58 schrieb Jethro_uk:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/27/british-born-man-who-has- >>>> never-left-uk-faces-deportation

Since the person in question does not possess a passport of any stripe, >>>> what would be the situation if Portugal refused to accept them ?

Just because the UK says they are a Portuguese citizen don't may it so. >>>>
Are there are parallels with the Shemima Begum case ?

You are asking the wrong question. The right question would be: would
Portugal accept that he is a Portuguese national? I doubt it.

By the looks of it, if his birth was registered with the Portuguese
consulate then he is a Portuguese citizen and Portugal would be highly
unlikely to refuse to accept him. If it wasn't then he isn't a
Portuguese citizen unless he has chosen to claim citizenship,

No, that's a complete misunderstanding. Nationality does not require
any claiming. It's something we all have, as of right, automatically,
at birth, according to international convention and the laws of the land.

You might want to look up the applicable legislation before making such a statement.

Jon is correctly describing the effect of Portuguese law on this issue.
Under Portuguese law, anyone born outside Portugal with a Portuguese parent
is entitled to Portuguese nationality. But they do not automatically become Portuguese nationals simply by being born to Portuguese parents; they have
to have their birth registered in a Portuguese civil registry. If their
birth is not so registered, they are not Portuguese citizens.

The point is that this gives people born of Portuguese parents outside
Portugal the choice (or gives their parents the choice). If their parents do not register them, and they do not choose to do so retrospectively
themselves, then as far as Portugal is concerned they are not citizens. But
if their parents do register them, or they later make the decision to
register themselves, then they have an absolute right to do so and the Portuguese authorities cannot refuse to accept that registration.

It's why *you* and I are British despite never having had to claim it.

British citizenship law is not the same as Portuguese citizenship law. And neither are the same as, for example, US citizenship law. Different
countries make their own laws on citizenship. Funny, that. It's almost as if other countries are sovereign over their own citizens.

in which
case I doubt that the UK can deport him. They might be able to detain
him indefinitely though I suppose.

We can deport anyone with a nationality other than British. It's a
sovereign nation's right.

But the point here is that, unless this person already has Portuguese citizenship, the UK cannot force him to acquire it.

Mark

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 28/12/2023 21:17, Mark Goodge wrote:

On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 16:41:04 +0000, Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> wrote:

On 28/12/2023 15:07, Jon Ribbens wrote:

On 2023-12-28, Ottavio Caruso <ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com> wrote: >>>> Am 27/12/2023 um 13:58 schrieb Jethro_uk:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/27/british-born-man-who-has- >>>>> never-left-uk-faces-deportation

Since the person in question does not possess a passport of any stripe, >>>>> what would be the situation if Portugal refused to accept them ?

Just because the UK says they are a Portuguese citizen don't may it so. >>>>>
Are there are parallels with the Shemima Begum case ?

You are asking the wrong question. The right question would be: would
Portugal accept that he is a Portuguese national? I doubt it.

By the looks of it, if his birth was registered with the Portuguese
consulate then he is a Portuguese citizen and Portugal would be highly
unlikely to refuse to accept him. If it wasn't then he isn't a
Portuguese citizen unless he has chosen to claim citizenship,

No, that's a complete misunderstanding. Nationality does not require
any claiming. It's something we all have, as of right, automatically,
at birth, according to international convention and the laws of the land.

You might want to look up the applicable legislation before making such a statement.

To which I note you give no link or reference of course.

Jon is correctly describing the effect of Portuguese law on this issue.
Under Portuguese law, anyone born outside Portugal with a Portuguese parent is entitled to Portuguese nationality.

I expect so, but it's for you to establish. The effect of *UK* law,
namely the Nationality Act 1981, is that being born here other than to
UK citizen parents gives no rights to British citizenship. So, he is
*not* British.

And, under the provisions of Article 4 of the 1961 UN Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness, to which Portugal is a signatory:

"1. A Contracting State shall grant its nationality to a person, not
born in the territory of a Contracting State, who would otherwise be
stateless, if the nationality of one of his parents at the time of the person’s birth was that of that State."

Portugal is therefore *obliged* to accept him as a Portuguese national.

*UK* law, in Section 40, says that the Home Secretary may deprive
someone of any British nationality he has, and thus refuse him the right
to enter or remain, if he:

"has reasonable grounds for believing that the person is able, under the
law of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom, to become a
national of such a country or territory".

Not that he *is* such a national, but is *able* to become one,
regardless of whether that is automatic or just by filling in a form.
It makes no difference.

But they do not automatically become
Portuguese nationals simply by being born to Portuguese parents; they have
to have their birth registered in a Portuguese civil registry. If their
birth is not so registered, they are not Portuguese citizens.

The point is that this gives people born of Portuguese parents outside Portugal the choice (or gives their parents the choice).

If there is any choice at all, it is between being stateless or being Portuguese.

No-one in their right mind would 'choose' the former.

If their parents do
not register them, and they do not choose to do so retrospectively themselves, then as far as Portugal is concerned they are not citizens. But if their parents do register them, or they later make the decision to register themselves, then they have an absolute right to do so and the Portuguese authorities cannot refuse to accept that registration.

It's why *you* and I are British despite never having had to claim it.

British citizenship law is not the same as Portuguese citizenship law. And neither are the same as, for example, US citizenship law. Different
countries make their own laws on citizenship. Funny, that. It's almost as if other countries are sovereign over their own citizens.

They are in fact *less* sovereign over their own citizens because they
are obliged to accept them and let them in. Which they aren't as
regards those with other nationalities or able to have them.

in which
case I doubt that the UK can deport him. They might be able to detain
him indefinitely though I suppose.

We can deport anyone with a nationality other than British. It's a
sovereign nation's right.

But the point here is that, unless this person already has Portuguese citizenship, the UK cannot force him to acquire it.

Then we can send him where we like, Rwanda perhaps.

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Am 28/12/2023 um 16:41 schrieb Norman Wells:

No, that's a complete misunderstanding.  Nationality does not require
any claiming.  It's something we all have, as of right, automatically,
at birth, according to international convention and the laws of the land.

If that is the case, then Italy follows a different pattern. If you are
born in Italy but from foreign parents, you mature your citizenship at
the age of 18, and you still have to claim it.

(Fire your Google Translate at this: https://www.comune.mirandola.mo.it/servizi/servizi-demografici/cittadinanza/cittadinanza-dei-neo-diciottenni)

Be careful projecting British/Anglo Saxon legal concepts to the rest of
the world.

--
Ottavio Caruso

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Am 28/12/2023 um 16:45 schrieb Norman Wells:

On 28/12/2023 12:21, Ottavio Caruso wrote:

Am 27/12/2023 um 14:42 schrieb billy bookcase:

"Jethro_uk" <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> wrote in message
news:umhaid$33rds$7@dont-email.me...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/27/british-born-man-who-has- >>>> never-left-uk-faces-deportation

Since the person in question does not possess a passport of any stripe, >>>> what would be the situation if Portugal refused to accept them ?

Just because the UK says they are a Portuguese citizen don't may it so. >>>>
Are there are parallels with the Shemima Begum case ?

Er no.

While Mr Lima doesn't have a passport, as he couldn't afford it,
being born in
the UK he surely can produce a UK Birth Certificate.

quote

The following evidence could be provided to prove British
Citizenship: a British
passport.
* a British birth certificate*. Certificate of Naturalisation.

unquote

https://faq.nhsbsa.nhs.uk/knowledgebase/article/KA-03337/en-us

In which case, wouldn't it be impossible to deport him ?

AIUI there was no question as to Shimama Begums place of birth the UK
or her original UK Citizenship; which she then chose to renounce

Does being born in UK mean that you are automatically a British citizen?

No.

It's the nationality of the parents that is generally determinative.

Do we 100% know that Portugal uses this concept. It may well do or may not.

The chap made a lot of assumptions in his life. Is it possible that his
parents were not actually Portuguese but Brazilian or Angolan or
Capoverdian?

(He might have well voted Brexit to get rid of all the foreigners!)


--
Ottavio Caruso

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On Fri, 29 Dec 2023 09:19:18 +0000, Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> wrote:

On 28/12/2023 21:17, Mark Goodge wrote:

On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 16:41:04 +0000, Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> wrote: >>

On 28/12/2023 15:07, Jon Ribbens wrote:

On 2023-12-28, Ottavio Caruso <ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com> wrote: >>>>> Am 27/12/2023 um 13:58 schrieb Jethro_uk:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/27/british-born-man-who-has-
never-left-uk-faces-deportation

Since the person in question does not possess a passport of any stripe, >>>>>> what would be the situation if Portugal refused to accept them ?

Just because the UK says they are a Portuguese citizen don't may it so. >>>>>>
Are there are parallels with the Shemima Begum case ?

You are asking the wrong question. The right question would be: would >>>>> Portugal accept that he is a Portuguese national? I doubt it.

By the looks of it, if his birth was registered with the Portuguese
consulate then he is a Portuguese citizen and Portugal would be highly >>>> unlikely to refuse to accept him. If it wasn't then he isn't a
Portuguese citizen unless he has chosen to claim citizenship,

No, that's a complete misunderstanding. Nationality does not require
any claiming. It's something we all have, as of right, automatically,
at birth, according to international convention and the laws of the land. >>

You might want to look up the applicable legislation before making such a
statement.

To which I note you give no link or reference of course.

There's a reasonable summary here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_nationality_law

But, my main point was that you clearly made no effort to look up the legislation before you made your statement. The Wikipedia page is the first result on DuckDuckGo for "portuguese citizenship", and the fact that you
didn't even check that says more about you than I ever could.

Mark

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