On Sunday 10th December, Channel 4 transmitted a programme in the "24
Hours in Police Custody" series in which a man was prosecuted for
viewing (and videoing) a woman pissing in an alleyway. Also a couple
having sex in an alley. Surely the acts are as illegal as the viewing/videoing?
He was eventually prosecuted for oral rape on very dubious grounds
(unless the programme makers omitted the detail): basically just the (pissing) woman's testimony.
Oh, and there were some make weight "indecent images" charges.
The policewoman investigating the case huffed and puffed a lot.
On Sunday 10th December, Channel 4 transmitted a programme in the "24
Hours in Police Custody" series in which a man was prosecuted for
viewing (and videoing) a woman pissing in an alleyway. Also a couple
having sex in an alley. Surely the acts are as illegal as the viewing/videoing?
He was eventually prosecuted for oral rape on very dubious grounds
(unless the programme makers omitted the detail): basically just the (pissing) woman's testimony.
Oh, and there were some make weight "indecent images" charges.
The policewoman investigating the case huffed and puffed a lot.
On Sunday 10th December, Channel 4 transmitted a programme in the "24
Hours in Police Custody" series in which a man was prosecuted for
viewing (and videoing) a woman pissing in an alleyway. Also a couple
having sex in an alley. Surely the acts are as illegal as the viewing/videoing?
He was eventually prosecuted for oral rape on very dubious grounds
(unless the programme makers omitted the detail): basically just the (pissing) woman's testimony.
Oh, and there were some make weight "indecent images" charges.
The policewoman investigating the case huffed and puffed a lot.
On Sunday 10th December, Channel 4 transmitted a programme in the "24
Hours in Police Custody" series in which a man was prosecuted for
viewing (and videoing) a woman pissing in an alleyway. Also a couple
having sex in an alley. Surely the acts are as illegal as the viewing/videoing?
He was eventually prosecuted for oral rape on very dubious grounds
(unless the programme makers omitted the detail): basically just the (pissing) woman's testimony.
Am 13/12/2023 um 18:12 schrieb Max Demian:
On Sunday 10th December, Channel 4 transmitted a programme in the "24
Hours in Police Custody" series in which a man was prosecuted for
viewing (and videoing) a woman pissing in an alleyway. Also a couple
having sex in an alley. Surely the acts are as illegal as the
viewing/videoing?
He was eventually prosecuted for oral rape on very dubious grounds
(unless the programme makers omitted the detail): basically just the
(pissing) woman's testimony.
Oh, and there were some make weight "indecent images" charges.
The policewoman investigating the case huffed and puffed a lot.
The UK (especially England) is world champion when it comes to prudishness.
On 13/12/2023 18:12, Max Demian wrote:
On Sunday 10th December, Channel 4 transmitted a programme in the "24
Hours in Police Custody" series in which a man was prosecuted for
viewing (and videoing) a woman pissing in an alleyway. Also a couple
having sex in an alley. Surely the acts are as illegal as the
viewing/videoing?
He was eventually prosecuted for oral rape on very dubious grounds
(unless the programme makers omitted the detail): basically just the
(pissing) woman's testimony.
Oh, and there were some make weight "indecent images" charges.
The policewoman investigating the case huffed and puffed a lot.
I've always wondered about police action re pissing in public.
I do a fair amount of hill walking and hiking, and the perceived wisdom
is to make sure you drink lots of water while hiking. This leads to the obvious consequences of needing to pee and when peeing, it should be
"clear and copious" (indicating that you are not dehyrated). Typically walkers try to be discrete when out on the hills and find a convenient
tree etc to pee behind, but there is often little cover on wide open hillsides, so it can be tricky, and there's never a WC when you need
one. I have had the dubious privilege of seeing a distant flash of
exposed white backside (should the person have been arrested for
flashing?) on an otherwise grey/green hillside.
Should walkers peeing out on the hills be treated in the same way as
people pissing in alleyways in more urban settings?
There is a rule of walking that if you need a pee when out on the hills,
and you're bursting to go and wait ages until you find a convenient spot
with cover, and think there's no-one else around, and you haven't seen
anyone all day, you can guarantee that as soon as you unzip, a group of
15 happy ramblers will appear out of nowwhere and walk past smiling and waving happily while you hop from one foot to the other ....
(I've often thought that public urination laws really ought to take circumstances into account. Someone who is in a deserted side street
pissing directly down a drain is not causing any harm whatsoever to
anyone or anything.
Someone who is pissing in the doorway of a shop
or residence is quite a different matter. Yet the law treats them
the same.)
I've always wondered about police action re pissing in public.
On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 09:35:04 +0000, Allan <invalid@invalid.invalid>
wrote:
I've always wondered about police action re pissing in public.
20+ years ago I was second man in a truck. Not long after we had set
off from the depot. The driver stopped the truck suddendly, and hoped
out to exercise his right to piss against the rear nearside wheel.
And before I had my prostate op I several times had cause to stop for
an urgent piss in places where there were no convenient services. I'd
stand with my back to the road and try and shelter myself with the car
and sometimes the open passenger door, depending on the road
alignment. I'm sure that there must have been some passing by who
realised what I was doing but at a speed and distance where they
wouldn't have seen much.
On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 09:35:04 +0000, Allan <invalid@invalid.invalid>
wrote:
I've always wondered about police action re pissing in public.
20+ years ago I was second man in a truck. Not long after we had set
off from the depot. The driver stopped the truck suddendly, and hoped
out to exercise his right to piss against the rear nearside wheel.
And before I had my prostate op I several times had cause to stop for
an urgent piss in places where there were no convenient services. I'd
stand with my back to the road and try and shelter myself with the car
and sometimes the open passenger door, depending on the road
alignment. I'm sure that there must have been some passing by who
realised what I was doing but at a speed and distance where they
wouldn't have seen much.
On 14-Dec-23 16:41, Peter Johnson wrote:
On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 09:35:04 +0000, Allan <invalid@invalid.invalid>There was a comment in Spike Milligan's war memoirs. He couldn't
wrote:
I've always wondered about police action re pissing in public.
20+ years ago I was second man in a truck. Not long after we had set
off from the depot. The driver stopped the truck suddendly, and hoped
out to exercise his right to piss against the rear nearside wheel.
And before I had my prostate op I several times had cause to stop for
an urgent piss in places where there were no convenient services. I'd
stand with my back to the road and try and shelter myself with the car
and sometimes the open passenger door, depending on the road
alignment. I'm sure that there must have been some passing by who
realised what I was doing but at a speed and distance where they
wouldn't have seen much.
understand why the lorry drivers - who had to wash their lorries daily (circumstances permitting) - would always piss on the wheels of their lorries, even when they were in the middle of the desert.
"Jon Ribbens" <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote in message news:slrnunlt8c.5oa.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu...
(I've often thought that public urination laws really ought to take
circumstances into account. Someone who is in a deserted side street
pissing directly down a drain is not causing any harm whatsoever to
anyone or anything.
But unless they were spotted on CCTV cameras, how would anyone know ?
Someone who is pissing in the doorway of a shop
or residence is quite a different matter. Yet the law treats them
the same.)
Surely the only meaningful distinction is that if someone urinates
in a public place (i.e outside of their house or designated urinal)
in a situation where they may possibly be seen either by a member of the public or a passing police car, regardless of time or circumstance
then that is an offence if seen directly.
On 13/12/2023 18:12, Max Demian wrote:
On Sunday 10th December, Channel 4 transmitted a programme in the "24
Hours in Police Custody" series in which a man was prosecuted for
viewing (and videoing) a woman pissing in an alleyway. Also a couple
having sex in an alley. Surely the acts are as illegal as the
viewing/videoing?
He was eventually prosecuted for oral rape on very dubious grounds
(unless the programme makers omitted the detail): basically just the
(pissing) woman's testimony.
Oh, and there were some make weight "indecent images" charges.
The policewoman investigating the case huffed and puffed a lot.
I've always wondered about police action re pissing in public.
I do a fair amount of hill walking and hiking, and the perceived wisdom
is to make sure you drink lots of water while hiking. This leads to the obvious consequences of needing to pee and when peeing, it should be
"clear and copious" (indicating that you are not dehyrated). Typically walkers try to be discrete when out on the hills and find a convenient
tree etc to pee behind, but there is often little cover on wide open hillsides, so it can be tricky, and there's never a WC when you need
one. I have had the dubious privilege of seeing a distant flash of
exposed white backside (should the person have been arrested for
flashing?) on an otherwise grey/green hillside.
Should walkers peeing out on the hills be treated in the same way as
people pissing in alleyways in more urban settings?
There is a rule of walking that if you need a pee when out on the hills,
and you're bursting to go and wait ages until you find a convenient spot
with cover, and think there's no-one else around, and you haven't seen
anyone all day, you can guarantee that as soon as you unzip, a group of
15 happy ramblers will appear out of nowwhere and walk past smiling and waving happily while you hop from one foot to the other ....
On 2023-12-13, Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:
On Sunday 10th December, Channel 4 transmitted a programme in the "24
Hours in Police Custody" series in which a man was prosecuted for
viewing (and videoing) a woman pissing in an alleyway. Also a couple
having sex in an alley. Surely the acts are as illegal as the
viewing/videoing?
He was eventually prosecuted for oral rape on very dubious grounds
(unless the programme makers omitted the detail): basically just the
(pissing) woman's testimony.
If he was prosecuted for rape then clearly he did a great deal more than
just videoing her from a distance.
To answer the question in your subject line, merely watching someone
piss in a public place is not a crime at all in general.
There doesn't seem to be any national law against public urination, but
the government has model byelaws for "good rule and government"* which
include "No person shall urinate or defecate in any street or public
place" (punishable by "a fine not exceeding level 2 on the standard
scale"), so it is presumably illegal in quite a few places.
(I've often thought that public urination laws really ought to take circumstances into account. Someone who is in a deserted side street
pissing directly down a drain is not causing any harm whatsoever to
anyone or anything. Someone who is pissing in the doorway of a shop
or residence is quite a different matter. Yet the law treats them
the same.)
* https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/good-rule-and-government-model-byelaw-8
On 14/12/2023 09:35, Allan wrote:
On 13/12/2023 18:12, Max Demian wrote:
On Sunday 10th December, Channel 4 transmitted a programme in the "24
Hours in Police Custody" series in which a man was prosecuted for
viewing (and videoing) a woman pissing in an alleyway. Also a couple
having sex in an alley. Surely the acts are as illegal as the
viewing/videoing?
He was eventually prosecuted for oral rape on very dubious grounds
(unless the programme makers omitted the detail): basically just the
(pissing) woman's testimony.
Oh, and there were some make weight "indecent images" charges.
The policewoman investigating the case huffed and puffed a lot.
I've always wondered about police action re pissing in public.
It appears that it can count as littering:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67615231
Towards the end, the article goes into quite a bit of detail on the
various other ways that it can be dealt with, which seem to rely upon
local authorities issuing orders under one Act or another.
In the case in point, the chap wouldn't have been ticketed in the first >place, had he done what I do and carry a portable urinal in the car. I
still need to get out of the car to use it, but I take my litter home.
I do a fair amount of hill walking and hiking, and the perceived wisdom
is to make sure you drink lots of water while hiking. This leads to the
obvious consequences of needing to pee and when peeing, it should be
"clear and copious" (indicating that you are not dehyrated). Typically
walkers try to be discrete when out on the hills and find a convenient
tree etc to pee behind, but there is often little cover on wide open
hillsides, so it can be tricky, and there's never a WC when you need
one. I have had the dubious privilege of seeing a distant flash of
exposed white backside (should the person have been arrested for
flashing?) on an otherwise grey/green hillside.
Should walkers peeing out on the hills be treated in the same way as
people pissing in alleyways in more urban settings?
In law, yes. In practice, they are far less likely to be apprehended for it.
There is a rule of walking that if you need a pee when out on the hills,
and you're bursting to go and wait ages until you find a convenient spot
with cover, and think there's no-one else around, and you haven't seen
anyone all day, you can guarantee that as soon as you unzip, a group of
15 happy ramblers will appear out of nowwhere and walk past smiling and
waving happily while you hop from one foot to the other ....
On 2023-12-14, Jon Ribbens wrote:
On 2023-12-13, Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:
On Sunday 10th December, Channel 4 transmitted a programme in the "24
Hours in Police Custody" series in which a man was prosecuted for
viewing (and videoing) a woman pissing in an alleyway. Also a couple
having sex in an alley. Surely the acts are as illegal as the
viewing/videoing?
He was eventually prosecuted for oral rape on very dubious grounds
(unless the programme makers omitted the detail): basically just the
(pissing) woman's testimony.
If he was prosecuted for rape then clearly he did a great deal more than
just videoing her from a distance.
To answer the question in your subject line, merely watching someone
piss in a public place is not a crime at all in general.
There doesn't seem to be any national law against public urination, but
the government has model byelaws for "good rule and government"* which
Hmm, a model for good rule and government should include funding for providing public facilities.
include "No person shall urinate or defecate in any street or public
place" (punishable by "a fine not exceeding level 2 on the standard
scale"), so it is presumably illegal in quite a few places.
(I've often thought that public urination laws really ought to take
circumstances into account. Someone who is in a deserted side street
Circumstances such as the availability of an open public toilet in the vicinity?
2023-12-14, Jon Ribbens wrote:
[quoted text muted]
Hmm, a model for good rule and government should include funding for providing public facilities.
On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 12:35:34 +0000, Colin Bignell <cpb@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk> wrote:
On 14/12/2023 09:35, Allan wrote:
On 13/12/2023 18:12, Max Demian wrote:
On Sunday 10th December, Channel 4 transmitted a programme in the "24
Hours in Police Custody" series in which a man was prosecuted for
viewing (and videoing) a woman pissing in an alleyway. Also a couple
having sex in an alley. Surely the acts are as illegal as the
viewing/videoing?
He was eventually prosecuted for oral rape on very dubious grounds
(unless the programme makers omitted the detail): basically just the
(pissing) woman's testimony.
Oh, and there were some make weight "indecent images" charges.
The policewoman investigating the case huffed and puffed a lot.
I've always wondered about police action re pissing in public.
It appears that it can count as littering:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67615231
Towards the end, the article goes into quite a bit of detail on the
various other ways that it can be dealt with, which seem to rely upon
local authorities issuing orders under one Act or another.
In the case in point, the chap wouldn't have been ticketed in the first
place, had he done what I do and carry a portable urinal in the car. I
still need to get out of the car to use it, but I take my litter home.
It is rather perverse thinking to consider it littering.
If there was
a litter bin handy perhaps he should have peed in there. However if
you stood and argued your case for a few minutes, assuming the deed
had been done in the bushes or similar, it would be interesting to ask
for the proof of the littering to be taken away as evidence.
Is the council going to go around fining foxes, badgers, those pesky
pigeon droppings? Counter-sue the council for not providing the
necessary facilities in a place of rest.
I don't understand why more lay-bys don't have a double line of hedge
to allow more discrete releif.
Jobsworth nonesense.
I do a fair amount of hill walking and hiking, and the perceived wisdom
is to make sure you drink lots of water while hiking. This leads to the >>> obvious consequences of needing to pee and when peeing, it should be
"clear and copious" (indicating that you are not dehyrated). Typically >>> walkers try to be discrete when out on the hills and find a convenient
tree etc to pee behind, but there is often little cover on wide open
hillsides, so it can be tricky, and there's never a WC when you need
one. I have had the dubious privilege of seeing a distant flash of
exposed white backside (should the person have been arrested for
flashing?) on an otherwise grey/green hillside.
Should walkers peeing out on the hills be treated in the same way as
people pissing in alleyways in more urban settings?
In law, yes. In practice, they are far less likely to be apprehended for it. >>
There is a rule of walking that if you need a pee when out on the hills, >>> and you're bursting to go and wait ages until you find a convenient spot >>> with cover, and think there's no-one else around, and you haven't seen
anyone all day, you can guarantee that as soon as you unzip, a group of
15 happy ramblers will appear out of nowwhere and walk past smiling and
waving happily while you hop from one foot to the other ....
Wave back :)
On 2023-12-14, Adam Funk <a24061a@ducksburg.com> wrote:
On 2023-12-14, Jon Ribbens wrote:
On 2023-12-13, Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:
On Sunday 10th December, Channel 4 transmitted a programme in the "24
Hours in Police Custody" series in which a man was prosecuted for
viewing (and videoing) a woman pissing in an alleyway. Also a couple
having sex in an alley. Surely the acts are as illegal as the
viewing/videoing?
He was eventually prosecuted for oral rape on very dubious grounds
(unless the programme makers omitted the detail): basically just the
(pissing) woman's testimony.
If he was prosecuted for rape then clearly he did a great deal more than >>> just videoing her from a distance.
To answer the question in your subject line, merely watching someone
piss in a public place is not a crime at all in general.
There doesn't seem to be any national law against public urination, but
the government has model byelaws for "good rule and government"* which
Hmm, a model for good rule and government should include funding for
providing public facilities.
Sadly I think the power is not given to local governments to pass
byelaws that make it illegal for central government not to fund them properly.
include "No person shall urinate or defecate in any street or public
place" (punishable by "a fine not exceeding level 2 on the standard
scale"), so it is presumably illegal in quite a few places.
(I've often thought that public urination laws really ought to take
circumstances into account. Someone who is in a deserted side street
Circumstances such as the availability of an open public toilet in the
vicinity?
Well, sure. I've probably posted by anecdote before about seeing someone pissing against a tree in Soho Square late at night literally 2 metres
from a pissoir. I pointed at it and said "you *do* know that's an actual toilet, right?" and they said "yeah mate, but it's the principle, innit?"
I couldn't really argue with that.
On 2023-12-14, billy bookcase <billy@anon.com> wrote:
"Jon Ribbens" <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote in message
news:slrnunlt8c.5oa.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu...
(I've often thought that public urination laws really ought to take
circumstances into account. Someone who is in a deserted side street
pissing directly down a drain is not causing any harm whatsoever to
anyone or anything.
But unless they were spotted on CCTV cameras, how would anyone know ?
I believe that, in the past at least, it has been known upon occasion
for police constables to perambulate around the neighbourhood in the
hope of finding criminals to arrest, little old ladies to assist, or
lost dogs to rescue.
Someone who is pissing in the doorway of a shop
or residence is quite a different matter. Yet the law treats them
the same.)
Surely the only meaningful distinction is that if someone urinates
in a public place (i.e outside of their house or designated urinal)
in a situation where they may possibly be seen either by a member of the
public or a passing police car, regardless of time or circumstance
then that is an offence if seen directly.
No, my entire point was that there is a very meaningful distinction that
in one circumstance no harm is being caused to anyone,
and in the other
a resident or shopkeeper is going to have a foul mess to clean up.
On 2023-12-14, billy bookcase <billy@anon.com> wrote:
[quoted text muted]
I believe that, in the past at least, it has been known upon occasion
for police constables to perambulate around the neighbourhood in the
hope of finding criminals to arrest, little old ladies to assist, or
lost dogs to rescue.
On Sunday 10th December, Channel 4 transmitted a programme in the "24
Hours in Police Custody" series in which a man was prosecuted for
viewing (and videoing) a woman pissing in an alleyway. Also a couple
having sex in an alley. Surely the acts are as illegal as the viewing/videoing?
He was eventually prosecuted for oral rape on very dubious grounds
(unless the programme makers omitted the detail): basically just the (pissing) woman's testimony.
Oh, and there were some make weight "indecent images" charges.
The policewoman investigating the case huffed and puffed a lot.
Talking Pictures TV are apparently going to start re-runs of "Dixon
of Dock Green". True.
On Wednesday 13 December 2023 at 22:03:27 UTC, Max Demian wrote:
On Sunday 10th December, Channel 4 transmitted a programme in the "24
Hours in Police Custody" series in which a man was prosecuted for
viewing (and videoing) a woman pissing in an alleyway. Also a couple
having sex in an alley. Surely the acts are as illegal as the
viewing/videoing?
He was eventually prosecuted for oral rape on very dubious grounds
(unless the programme makers omitted the detail): basically just the
(pissing) woman's testimony.
Oh, and there were some make weight "indecent images" charges.
The policewoman investigating the case huffed and puffed a lot.
The policewoman did indeed seem a bit of a zealot and made some confident statements about how the accused would definitely go onto more serious crimes.
I suppose the ‘public interest’ test would come into play regarding the ‘pisser’. If rape victims were dissuaded from coming forward because they might get prosecuted for public urination then that wouldn’t be a ‘good thing’.
The Sexual Offences Act Section 67 makes the filming/observation of a private act an offence if done for sexual gratification. If his defence had been that he was going to report the lady for indecent exposure then it might have been different on thoseelements. So it comes down to whether or not a ‘normally private’ act in a public place is still a private act. Don’t forget he did also film people in their homes having sex too.
The rape element wasn’t just the victim’s testimony. Her evident distress was held to be the significant smoking gun piece of evidence.
And the voyeurism law is comparatively recent, having been promoted
(rather perversely) by Blind David Blunkett.
However did we manage before?
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