As the result of a court case, a person may be required to pay damages
or settle a disputed bill but, in this instance, it gets paid by a some benefactor like a relative or friend.
Is that payment considered to have been made direct to that person and therefore is a form of income subject to tax?
I'm wondering about substantial amounts. Something like Ģ10,000 or even Ģ250,000.
On 6 Dec 2023 at 14:27:46 GMT, "Pamela" <uklm@permabulator.33mail.com>
wrote:
If it is a gift it is not taxable. Except perhaps for a liability to
As the result of a court case, a person may be required to pay
damages or settle a disputed bill but, in this instance, it gets paid
by a some benefactor like a relative or friend.
Is that payment considered to have been made direct to that person
and therefore is a form of income subject to tax?
IHT which is beyond my pay grade. It is not income.
I'm wondering about substantial amounts. Something like 10,000 or
even 250,000.
On 15:30 6 Dec 2023, Roger Hayter said:
On 6 Dec 2023 at 14:27:46 GMT, "Pamela" <uklm@permabulator.33mail.com>
wrote:
If it is a gift it is not taxable. Except perhaps for a liability to
As the result of a court case, a person may be required to pay
damages or settle a disputed bill but, in this instance, it gets paid
by a some benefactor like a relative or friend.
Is that payment considered to have been made direct to that person
and therefore is a form of income subject to tax?
IHT which is beyond my pay grade. It is not income.
I'm wondering about substantial amounts. Something like £10,000 or
even £250,000.
I hadn't expected cash gifts were not taxable. It seems to allow drug
dealers and other criminals to claim they received a large cash gift
from some benefactor and have no obligation to pay tax on it.
On 15:30 6 Dec 2023, Roger Hayter said:
On 6 Dec 2023 at 14:27:46 GMT, "Pamela" <uklm@permabulator.33mail.com>
wrote:
If it is a gift it is not taxable. Except perhaps for a liability to
As the result of a court case, a person may be required to pay
damages or settle a disputed bill but, in this instance, it gets paid
by a some benefactor like a relative or friend.
Is that payment considered to have been made direct to that person
and therefore is a form of income subject to tax?
IHT which is beyond my pay grade. It is not income.
I'm wondering about substantial amounts. Something like Ģ10,000 or
even Ģ250,000.
I hadn't expected cash gifts were not taxable. It seems to allow drug
dealers and other criminals to claim they received a large cash gift
from some benefactor and have no obligation to pay tax on it.
On 15:30 6 Dec 2023, Roger Hayter said:
On 6 Dec 2023 at 14:27:46 GMT, "Pamela" <uklm@permabulator.33mail.com>
wrote:
If it is a gift it is not taxable. Except perhaps for a liability to
As the result of a court case, a person may be required to pay
damages or settle a disputed bill but, in this instance, it gets paid
by a some benefactor like a relative or friend.
Is that payment considered to have been made direct to that person
and therefore is a form of income subject to tax?
IHT which is beyond my pay grade. It is not income.
I'm wondering about substantial amounts. Something like Ł10,000 or
even Ł250,000.
I hadn't expected cash gifts were not taxable. It seems to allow drug
dealers and other criminals to claim they received a large cash gift
from some benefactor and have no obligation to pay tax on it.
On 7 Dec 2023 at 16:05:01 GMT, "Pamela" <uklm@permabulator.33mail.com> wrote:
On 15:30 6 Dec 2023, Roger Hayter said:
On 6 Dec 2023 at 14:27:46 GMT, "Pamela" <uklm@permabulator.33mail.com>
wrote:
As the result of a court case, a person may be required to payIf it is a gift it is not taxable. Except perhaps for a liability to
damages or settle a disputed bill but, in this instance, it gets paid
by a some benefactor like a relative or friend.
Is that payment considered to have been made direct to that person
and therefore is a form of income subject to tax?
IHT which is beyond my pay grade. It is not income.
I'm wondering about substantial amounts. Something like Ģ10,000 or
even Ģ250,000.
I hadn't expected cash gifts were not taxable. It seems to allow drug
dealers and other criminals to claim they received a large cash gift
from some benefactor and have no obligation to pay tax on it.
Drug dealers are not necessarily too worried about tax (except as criminals they probably won't pay it) but the law asking where they got the money. Hence money laundering rules. Generally "someone unidentified gave it me in a pub" isn't going to satisfy either authority.
On 07/12/2023 19:07, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 7 Dec 2023 at 16:05:01 GMT, "Pamela" <uklm@permabulator.33mail.com> wrote:
On 15:30 6 Dec 2023, Roger Hayter said:
On 6 Dec 2023 at 14:27:46 GMT, "Pamela" <uklm@permabulator.33mail.com> >>>> wrote:
As the result of a court case, a person may be required to payIf it is a gift it is not taxable. Except perhaps for a liability to
damages or settle a disputed bill but, in this instance, it gets paid >>>>> by a some benefactor like a relative or friend.
Is that payment considered to have been made direct to that person
and therefore is a form of income subject to tax?
IHT which is beyond my pay grade. It is not income.
I'm wondering about substantial amounts. Something like Ģ10,000 or
even Ģ250,000.
I hadn't expected cash gifts were not taxable. It seems to allow drug
dealers and other criminals to claim they received a large cash gift
from some benefactor and have no obligation to pay tax on it.
Drug dealers are not necessarily too worried about tax (except as criminals >> they probably won't pay it) but the law asking where they got the money.
Hence money laundering rules. Generally "someone unidentified gave it me in a
pub" isn't going to satisfy either authority.
The burden of proof, however, lies with those alleging it was acquired illegally.
On 7 Dec 2023 at 21:16:48 GMT, "Norman Wells" <hex@unseen.ac.am> wrote:
On 07/12/2023 19:07, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 7 Dec 2023 at 16:05:01 GMT, "Pamela" <uklm@permabulator.33mail.com> wrote:
On 15:30 6 Dec 2023, Roger Hayter said:
On 6 Dec 2023 at 14:27:46 GMT, "Pamela" <uklm@permabulator.33mail.com> >>>>> wrote:
As the result of a court case, a person may be required to payIf it is a gift it is not taxable. Except perhaps for a liability to >>>>> IHT which is beyond my pay grade. It is not income.
damages or settle a disputed bill but, in this instance, it gets paid >>>>>> by a some benefactor like a relative or friend.
Is that payment considered to have been made direct to that person >>>>>> and therefore is a form of income subject to tax?
I'm wondering about substantial amounts. Something like Ģ10,000 or >>>>>> even Ģ250,000.
I hadn't expected cash gifts were not taxable. It seems to allow drug
dealers and other criminals to claim they received a large cash gift
from some benefactor and have no obligation to pay tax on it.
Drug dealers are not necessarily too worried about tax (except as criminals >>> they probably won't pay it) but the law asking where they got the money. >>> Hence money laundering rules. Generally "someone unidentified gave it me in a
pub" isn't going to satisfy either authority.
The burden of proof, however, lies with those alleging it was acquired
illegally.
I think you may be misinformed. I believe very limited evidence of where that particular money came from is required in order to confiscate it. We have progressed quite a long way on the totalitarian road in recent decades
On 07/12/2023 23:44, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 7 Dec 2023 at 21:16:48 GMT, "Norman Wells" <hex@unseen.ac.am> wrote:
On 07/12/2023 19:07, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 7 Dec 2023 at 16:05:01 GMT, "Pamela" <uklm@permabulator.33mail.com> wrote:
On 15:30 6 Dec 2023, Roger Hayter said:
On 6 Dec 2023 at 14:27:46 GMT, "Pamela" <uklm@permabulator.33mail.com> >>>>>> wrote:
As the result of a court case, a person may be required to payIf it is a gift it is not taxable. Except perhaps for a liability to >>>>>> IHT which is beyond my pay grade. It is not income.
damages or settle a disputed bill but, in this instance, it gets paid >>>>>>> by a some benefactor like a relative or friend.
Is that payment considered to have been made direct to that person >>>>>>> and therefore is a form of income subject to tax?
I'm wondering about substantial amounts. Something like Ģ10,000 or >>>>>>> even Ģ250,000.
I hadn't expected cash gifts were not taxable. It seems to allow drug >>>>> dealers and other criminals to claim they received a large cash gift >>>>> from some benefactor and have no obligation to pay tax on it.
Drug dealers are not necessarily too worried about tax (except as criminals
they probably won't pay it) but the law asking where they got the money. >>>> Hence money laundering rules. Generally "someone unidentified gave it me in a
pub" isn't going to satisfy either authority.
The burden of proof, however, lies with those alleging it was acquired
illegally.
I think you may be misinformed. I believe very limited evidence of where that
particular money came from is required in order to confiscate it. We have
progressed quite a long way on the totalitarian road in recent decades
I think not.
"The police cannot seize your assets solely based on probable cause. The standard for the seizure of assets is higher. It requires the
authorities to successfully demonstrate a link between the assets and
the proceeds of crime or intended use in criminal activities.
Additionally, the burden of proof must be higher than for probable
cause. The evidence will then be presented to the court who will decide whether to grant an order to seize the assets."
https://cartwrightking.co.uk/articles/corporate-financial-crime/can-the-police-seize-assets/#:~:text=How%20Does%20Asset%20Seizure%20Work,a%20warrant%20from%20a%20judge.
On 8 Dec 2023 at 08:01:48 GMT, "Norman Wells" <hex@unseen.ac.am> wrote:
On 07/12/2023 23:44, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 7 Dec 2023 at 21:16:48 GMT, "Norman Wells" <hex@unseen.ac.am> wrote:
On 07/12/2023 19:07, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 7 Dec 2023 at 16:05:01 GMT, "Pamela" <uklm@permabulator.33mail.com> wrote:
On 15:30 6 Dec 2023, Roger Hayter said:
On 6 Dec 2023 at 14:27:46 GMT, "Pamela" <uklm@permabulator.33mail.com> >>>>>>> wrote:
As the result of a court case, a person may be required to pay >>>>>>>> damages or settle a disputed bill but, in this instance, it gets paid >>>>>>>> by a some benefactor like a relative or friend.If it is a gift it is not taxable. Except perhaps for a liability to >>>>>>> IHT which is beyond my pay grade. It is not income.
Is that payment considered to have been made direct to that person >>>>>>>> and therefore is a form of income subject to tax?
I'm wondering about substantial amounts. Something like Ģ10,000 or >>>>>>>> even Ģ250,000.
I hadn't expected cash gifts were not taxable. It seems to allow drug >>>>>> dealers and other criminals to claim they received a large cash gift >>>>>> from some benefactor and have no obligation to pay tax on it.
Drug dealers are not necessarily too worried about tax (except as criminals
they probably won't pay it) but the law asking where they got the money. >>>>> Hence money laundering rules. Generally "someone unidentified gave it me in a
pub" isn't going to satisfy either authority.
The burden of proof, however, lies with those alleging it was acquired >>>> illegally.
I think you may be misinformed. I believe very limited evidence of where that
particular money came from is required in order to confiscate it. We have >>> progressed quite a long way on the totalitarian road in recent decades
I think not.
"The police cannot seize your assets solely based on probable cause. The
standard for the seizure of assets is higher. It requires the
authorities to successfully demonstrate a link between the assets and
the proceeds of crime or intended use in criminal activities.
Additionally, the burden of proof must be higher than for probable
cause. The evidence will then be presented to the court who will decide
whether to grant an order to seize the assets."
https://cartwrightking.co.uk/articles/corporate-financial-crime/can-the-police-seize-assets/#:~:text=How%20Does%20Asset%20Seizure%20Work,a%20warrant%20from%20a%20judge.
And on the same site:
"The owner of the seized property must prove their innocence and the legitimate source or assets to retrieve them."
Which is the point I was originally making. Seizure of assets does *not* require a conviction for any crime, and you *do* have to demonstrate where you
got the money.
On 8 Dec 2023 at 08:01:48 GMT, "Norman Wells" <hex@unseen.ac.am> wrote:
On 07/12/2023 23:44, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 7 Dec 2023 at 21:16:48 GMT, "Norman Wells" <hex@unseen.ac.am> wrote:
On 07/12/2023 19:07, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 7 Dec 2023 at 16:05:01 GMT, "Pamela" <uklm@permabulator.33mail.com> wrote:
On 15:30 6 Dec 2023, Roger Hayter said:
On 6 Dec 2023 at 14:27:46 GMT, "Pamela" <uklm@permabulator.33mail.com> >>>>>>> wrote:
As the result of a court case, a person may be required to pay >>>>>>>> damages or settle a disputed bill but, in this instance, it gets paid >>>>>>>> by a some benefactor like a relative or friend.If it is a gift it is not taxable. Except perhaps for a liability to >>>>>>> IHT which is beyond my pay grade. It is not income.
Is that payment considered to have been made direct to that person >>>>>>>> and therefore is a form of income subject to tax?
I'm wondering about substantial amounts. Something like Ģ10,000 or >>>>>>>> even Ģ250,000.
I hadn't expected cash gifts were not taxable. It seems to allow drug >>>>>> dealers and other criminals to claim they received a large cash gift >>>>>> from some benefactor and have no obligation to pay tax on it.
Drug dealers are not necessarily too worried about tax (except as criminals
they probably won't pay it) but the law asking where they got the money. >>>>> Hence money laundering rules. Generally "someone unidentified gave it me in a
pub" isn't going to satisfy either authority.
The burden of proof, however, lies with those alleging it was acquired >>>> illegally.
I think you may be misinformed. I believe very limited evidence of where that
particular money came from is required in order to confiscate it. We have >>> progressed quite a long way on the totalitarian road in recent decades
I think not.
"The police cannot seize your assets solely based on probable cause. The
standard for the seizure of assets is higher. It requires the
authorities to successfully demonstrate a link between the assets and
the proceeds of crime or intended use in criminal activities.
Additionally, the burden of proof must be higher than for probable
cause. The evidence will then be presented to the court who will decide
whether to grant an order to seize the assets."
https://cartwrightking.co.uk/articles/corporate-financial-crime/can-the-police-seize-assets/#:~:text=How%20Does%20Asset%20Seizure%20Work,a%20warrant%20from%20a%20judge.
And on the same site:
"The owner of the seized property must prove their innocence and the legitimate source or assets to retrieve them."
Which is the point I was originally making. Seizure of assets does *not* require a conviction for any crime,
and you *do* have to demonstrate where you got the money.
Yes. Provided gifts are made more than 7 years before the donor dies,
they are tax-free regardless of the amount involved. Otherwise, they
are tax-free to the recipient but the donor's estate cops a tax bill on
a sliding scale.
On 07/12/2023 18:59, Norman Wells wrote:
Yes. Provided gifts are made more than 7 years before the donor dies,
they are tax-free regardless of the amount involved. Otherwise, they
are tax-free to the recipient but the donor's estate cops a tax bill on
a sliding scale.
That's interesting. Does that imply that if someone gives away _all_
their money less than 7 years before death no tax will be payable, as
the estate is essentially bankrupt?
Andy
On 10 Dec 2023 at 11:53:10 GMT, "Vir Campestris" <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 07/12/2023 18:59, Norman Wells wrote:
Yes. Provided gifts are made more than 7 years before the donor dies,
they are tax-free regardless of the amount involved. Otherwise, they
are tax-free to the recipient but the donor's estate cops a tax bill on
a sliding scale.
That's interesting. Does that imply that if someone gives away _all_
their money less than 7 years before death no tax will be payable, as
the estate is essentially bankrupt?
Andy
No it doesn't. If the estate can't pay the tax then those who received gifts within seven years have to pay at least some of it. I don't know the precise rules about how much they can be asked to pay but I expect it depends what fraction of the seven years has elapsed.
On 07/12/2023 18:59, Norman Wells wrote:
Yes. Provided gifts are made more than 7 years before the donor dies,
they are tax-free regardless of the amount involved. Otherwise, they
are tax-free to the recipient but the donor's estate cops a tax bill
on a sliding scale.
That's interesting. Does that imply that if someone gives away _all_
their money less than 7 years before death no tax will be payable, as
the estate is essentially bankrupt?
On 10/12/2023 12:00 pm, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 10 Dec 2023 at 11:53:10 GMT, "Vir Campestris"
<vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 07/12/2023 18:59, Norman Wells wrote:
Yes. Provided gifts are made more than 7 years before the donor dies, >>>> they are tax-free regardless of the amount involved. Otherwise, they >>>> are tax-free to the recipient but the donor's estate cops a tax bill on >>>> a sliding scale.
That's interesting. Does that imply that if someone gives away _all_
their money less than 7 years before death no tax will be payable, as
the estate is essentially bankrupt?
Andy
No it doesn't. If the estate can't pay the tax then those who received gifts >> within seven years have to pay at least some of it. I don't know the precise >> rules about how much they can be asked to pay but I expect it depends what >> fraction of the seven years has elapsed.
You answered a question the PP didn't ask and didn't answer the one he did ask.
It may all sum down to something similar to what you said, but there are a few
important steps and processes which would intervene.
For a start, if someone gave an adult child £50,000 as a house deposit and died
six and a half years later, how would the state even know about the gift? Does
HMRC trawl back seven years through bank accounts?
[Asking for a friend.]
On 10/12/2023 14:30, JNugent wrote:
On 10/12/2023 12:00 pm, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 10 Dec 2023 at 11:53:10 GMT, "Vir Campestris"
<vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 07/12/2023 18:59, Norman Wells wrote:
Yes. Provided gifts are made more than 7 years before the donor dies, >>>>> they are tax-free regardless of the amount involved. Otherwise, they >>>>> are tax-free to the recipient but the donor's estate cops a tax bill on >>>>> a sliding scale.
That's interesting. Does that imply that if someone gives away _all_
their money less than 7 years before death no tax will be payable, as
the estate is essentially bankrupt?
Andy
No it doesn't. If the estate can't pay the tax then those who received gifts
within seven years have to pay at least some of it. I don't know the precise
rules about how much they can be asked to pay but I expect it depends what >>> fraction of the seven years has elapsed.
You answered a question the PP didn't ask and didn't answer the one he did ask.
It may all sum down to something similar to what you said, but there are a few
important steps and processes which would intervene.
For a start, if someone gave an adult child £50,000 as a house deposit and died
six and a half years later, how would the state even know about the gift? Does
HMRC trawl back seven years through bank accounts?
[Asking for a friend.]
Also, what if the £50,000 came from a joint bank account, and one of the holders
is still alive? ( Assuming the estate of the deceased is suffficient after all
allowances to pay tax).
Just curious.
On 11 Dec 2023 at 10:32:18 GMT, "kat" <littlelionne@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 10/12/2023 14:30, JNugent wrote:
On 10/12/2023 12:00 pm, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 10 Dec 2023 at 11:53:10 GMT, "Vir Campestris"
<vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 07/12/2023 18:59, Norman Wells wrote:
Yes. Provided gifts are made more than 7 years before the donor dies, >>>>>> they are tax-free regardless of the amount involved. Otherwise, they >>>>>> are tax-free to the recipient but the donor's estate cops a tax bill on >>>>>> a sliding scale.
That's interesting. Does that imply that if someone gives away _all_ >>>>> their money less than 7 years before death no tax will be payable, as >>>>> the estate is essentially bankrupt?
Andy
No it doesn't. If the estate can't pay the tax then those who received gifts
within seven years have to pay at least some of it. I don't know the precise
rules about how much they can be asked to pay but I expect it depends what >>>> fraction of the seven years has elapsed.
You answered a question the PP didn't ask and didn't answer the one he did ask.
It may all sum down to something similar to what you said, but there are a few
important steps and processes which would intervene.
For a start, if someone gave an adult child £50,000 as a house deposit and died
six and a half years later, how would the state even know about the gift? Does
HMRC trawl back seven years through bank accounts?
[Asking for a friend.]
Also, what if the £50,000 came from a joint bank account, and one of the
holders
is still alive? ( Assuming the estate of the deceased is suffficient after all
allowances to pay tax).
Just curious.
In theory it would be necessary to establish whose money it actually was and who gave it. But anyway if the joint account holders are married then different rules apply to inheritance tax.
On 10 Dec 2023 at 11:53:10 GMT, "Vir Campestris" <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 07/12/2023 18:59, Norman Wells wrote:
Yes. Provided gifts are made more than 7 years before the donor
dies, they are tax-free regardless of the amount involved.
Otherwise, they are tax-free to the recipient but the donor's estate
cops a tax bill on a sliding scale.
That's interesting. Does that imply that if someone gives away _all_
their money less than 7 years before death no tax will be payable, as
the estate is essentially bankrupt?
Andy
No it doesn't. If the estate can't pay the tax then those who received
gifts within seven years have to pay at least some of it. I don't know
the precise rules about how much they can be asked to pay but I expect
it depends what fraction of the seven years has elapsed.
On 11/12/2023 11:14, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 11 Dec 2023 at 10:32:18 GMT, "kat" <littlelionne@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 10/12/2023 14:30, JNugent wrote:
On 10/12/2023 12:00 pm, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 10 Dec 2023 at 11:53:10 GMT, "Vir Campestris"
<vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 07/12/2023 18:59, Norman Wells wrote:
Yes. Provided gifts are made more than 7 years before the donor dies, >>>>>>> they are tax-free regardless of the amount involved. Otherwise, they >>>>>>> are tax-free to the recipient but the donor's estate cops a tax bill on >>>>>>> a sliding scale.
That's interesting. Does that imply that if someone gives away _all_ >>>>>> their money less than 7 years before death no tax will be payable, as >>>>>> the estate is essentially bankrupt?
Andy
No it doesn't. If the estate can't pay the tax then those who received gifts
within seven years have to pay at least some of it. I don't know the precise
rules about how much they can be asked to pay but I expect it depends what
fraction of the seven years has elapsed.
You answered a question the PP didn't ask and didn't answer the one he did ask.
It may all sum down to something similar to what you said, but there are a few
important steps and processes which would intervene.
For a start, if someone gave an adult child £50,000 as a house deposit and died
six and a half years later, how would the state even know about the gift? Does
HMRC trawl back seven years through bank accounts?
[Asking for a friend.]
Also, what if the £50,000 came from a joint bank account, and one of the >>> holders
is still alive? ( Assuming the estate of the deceased is suffficient after all
allowances to pay tax).
Just curious.
In theory it would be necessary to establish whose money it actually was and >> who gave it. But anyway if the joint account holders are married then
different rules apply to inheritance tax.
Many couples live together without being married these days, and have a joint account into which they both put money, generally to cover joint expenses, but,
let us assume they both earn a fair amount and the balance mounts up.
Could be great fun working out whose money it is.
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