• Re: Cat attacked and killed by dog

    From Norman Wells@21:1/5 to Jimzzr on Fri Dec 1 08:35:18 2023
    On 30/11/2023 23:11, Jimzzr wrote:
    Hi,

    My cat was recently injured and subsequently died from an attack by a Staffordshire Bull Terrier that had escaped from a back garden in the next street via a gate that was either not locked or became unlocked in the next street. My cat was in a
    neighbours front garden where he normally roams (these front gardens are open plan with no fencing either between houses or the street).

    The dog was clearly not under the owners control and I would suggest negligent in not ensuring the gate was secure.

    Do I have a good civil case for damages (ca £2k vet bills) in this situation.

    I think so.

    As far as I can tell there is no criminal offence. I pulled the dog off but it did not attempt to bite me so I guess there is no criminal offence?

    That is not the criterion.

    See Section 3 of the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991.

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1991/65/section/3

    Obviously I need to prove it was their dog, but is there anything else?

    The Police will need proof of the attack and of course the consequences.
    And you'll need to persuade them that this is a case they should pursue.

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  • From soup@21:1/5 to Jimzzr on Fri Dec 1 09:48:47 2023
    On 30/11/2023 23:11, Jimzzr wrote:
    Hi,

    My cat was recently injured and subsequently died from an attack by a Staffordshire Bull Terrier that had escaped from a back garden in the next street via a gate that was either not locked or became unlocked in the next street. My cat was in a
    neighbours front garden where he normally roams (these front gardens are open plan with no fencing either between houses or the street).

    The dog was clearly not under the owners control and I would suggest negligent in not ensuring the gate was secure.

    Do I have a good civil case for damages (ca £2k vet bills) in this situation. As far as I can tell there is no criminal offence. I pulled the dog off but it did not attempt to bite me so I guess there is no criminal offence? Obviously I need to prove
    it was their dog, but is there anything else?

    Mmm so the dog escaped but the cat was roaming.
    why sue(seek damages) for EVERYTHING ? Animals will be animals .

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From soup@21:1/5 to Norman Wells on Fri Dec 1 09:51:20 2023
    On 01/12/2023 08:35, Norman Wells wrote:
     And you'll need to persuade them that this is a case they should pursue

    Nah they'll have tweets to look at, peoples thinking to check etc.
    what some consider as actual crimes will be way down the list.

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  • From Roger Hayter@21:1/5 to soup on Fri Dec 1 11:24:25 2023
    On 1 Dec 2023 at 09:48:47 GMT, "soup" <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

    On 30/11/2023 23:11, Jimzzr wrote:
    Hi,

    My cat was recently injured and subsequently died from an attack by a
    Staffordshire Bull Terrier that had escaped from a back garden in the next >> street via a gate that was either not locked or became unlocked in the next >> street. My cat was in a neighbours front garden where he normally roams
    (these front gardens are open plan with no fencing either between houses or >> the street).

    The dog was clearly not under the owners control and I would suggest
    negligent in not ensuring the gate was secure.

    Do I have a good civil case for damages (ca £2k vet bills) in this situation.
    As far as I can tell there is no criminal offence. I pulled the dog off but >> it did not attempt to bite me so I guess there is no criminal offence?
    Obviously I need to prove it was their dog, but is there anything else?

    Mmm so the dog escaped but the cat was roaming.
    why sue(seek damages) for EVERYTHING ? Animals will be animals .

    What we need is an urban environment so hostile to cats that, like American city dwellers, the owners keep them indoors or in a secure yard. Quite why
    cats are free to tease, torture and kill any small mammal or bird on anyone's property, but predation of cats, when on someone else's property, is somehow considered an offence I do not understand.

    If the dog had attacked a person, or pet accompanying or under the control of
    a person, I could understand the concern.


    --
    Roger Hayter

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From GB@21:1/5 to Jimzzr on Fri Dec 1 15:11:58 2023
    On 01/12/2023 14:36, Jimzzr wrote:
    On Friday, 1 December 2023 at 11:24:33 UTC, Roger Hayter wrote:
    On 1 Dec 2023 at 09:48:47 GMT, "soup" <inv...@invalid.com> wrote:

    On 30/11/2023 23:11, Jimzzr wrote:
    Hi,

    My cat was recently injured and subsequently died from an attack by a
    Staffordshire Bull Terrier that had escaped from a back garden in the next >>>> street via a gate that was either not locked or became unlocked in the next
    street. My cat was in a neighbours front garden where he normally roams >>>> (these front gardens are open plan with no fencing either between houses or
    the street).

    The dog was clearly not under the owners control and I would suggest
    negligent in not ensuring the gate was secure.

    Do I have a good civil case for damages (ca £2k vet bills) in this situation.
    As far as I can tell there is no criminal offence. I pulled the dog off but
    it did not attempt to bite me so I guess there is no criminal offence? >>>> Obviously I need to prove it was their dog, but is there anything else? >>>
    Mmm so the dog escaped but the cat was roaming.
    why sue(seek damages) for EVERYTHING ? Animals will be animals .
    What we need is an urban environment so hostile to cats that, like American >> city dwellers, the owners keep them indoors or in a secure yard. Quite why >> cats are free to tease, torture and kill any small mammal or bird on anyone's
    property, but predation of cats, when on someone else's property, is somehow >> considered an offence I do not understand.

    If the dog had attacked a person, or pet accompanying or under the control of
    a person, I could understand the concern.


    --
    Roger Hayter
    It's not an offence for a dog to kill at cat. It's damage to someones property. There's no legal requirement to report your dog killing a cat to the police or you running over a cat but there is if I run over a dog. Equally there's no requirement for a
    cat owner to keep his animal under control in a public place but there is on dog owners. Swings and roundabouts. Dogs usually have a greater potential to cause harm and the duty of care of the owner is accordingly higher.


    I feared that you wouldn't get a very sympathetic response here.

    The simple answer is that, if you want your £2k back, you should issue proceedings using MCOL.

    The standard of proof is 'balance of probabilities' so you will have to
    have some evidence that you have the right dog and the right owner, but
    it doesn't have to be beyond doubt.

    You'll probably have to show that the vet's bill was reasonably incurred.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From JNugent@21:1/5 to Roger Hayter on Fri Dec 1 15:28:43 2023
    On 01/12/2023 11:24 am, Roger Hayter wrote:
    On 1 Dec 2023 at 09:48:47 GMT, "soup" <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

    On 30/11/2023 23:11, Jimzzr wrote:
    Hi,

    My cat was recently injured and subsequently died from an attack by a
    Staffordshire Bull Terrier that had escaped from a back garden in the next >>> street via a gate that was either not locked or became unlocked in the next >>> street. My cat was in a neighbours front garden where he normally roams
    (these front gardens are open plan with no fencing either between houses or >>> the street).

    The dog was clearly not under the owners control and I would suggest
    negligent in not ensuring the gate was secure.

    Do I have a good civil case for damages (ca £2k vet bills) in this situation.
    As far as I can tell there is no criminal offence. I pulled the dog off but >>> it did not attempt to bite me so I guess there is no criminal offence?
    Obviously I need to prove it was their dog, but is there anything else?

    Mmm so the dog escaped but the cat was roaming.
    why sue(seek damages) for EVERYTHING ? Animals will be animals .

    What we need is an urban environment so hostile to cats that, like American city dwellers, the owners keep them indoors or in a secure yard. Quite why cats are free to tease, torture and kill any small mammal or bird on anyone's property, but predation of cats, when on someone else's property, is somehow considered an offence I do not understand.

    If the dog had attacked a person, or pet accompanying or under the control of a person, I could understand the concern.

    Whatever did the cat do to you?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Norman Wells@21:1/5 to Simon Parker on Fri Dec 1 16:57:48 2023
    On 01/12/2023 15:46, Simon Parker wrote:

    On 30/11/2023 23:11, Jimzzr wrote:
    Hi,

    My cat was recently injured and subsequently died from an attack by a
    Staffordshire Bull Terrier that had escaped from a back garden in the
    next street via a gate that was either not locked or became unlocked in
    the next street. My cat was in a neighbours front garden where he
    normally roams (these front gardens are open plan with no fencing either between houses or the street).

    The dog was clearly not under the owners control and I would suggest
    negligent in not ensuring the gate was secure.

    Do I have a good civil case for damages (ca £2k vet bills) in this
    situation. As far as I can tell there is no criminal offence. I pulled
    the dog off but it did not attempt to bite me so I guess there is no
    criminal offence? Obviously I need to prove it was their dog, but is
    there anything else?

    Thanks

    Jim

    First and foremost, my sincerest condolences on the loss of your cat -
    this must be both distressing and frustrating for you.

    Rather than listening to advice from random strangers on the Internet, I would recommend that you read the NPCC's guidance issued to the police
    for "Dealing with Dogs" as this will provide you with an excellent understanding of how the police deal with these matters, so you know
    what to expect should you decide to report the matter to the police.

    You can download a copy of the NPCC's "Dealing with Dogs" document here:

    https://www.npcc.police.uk/SysSiteAssets/media/downloads/publications/disclosure-logs/operations-coordination-committee/2023/march/057-2023-dealing-with-dd-guidance-notes-for-police_redacted.pdf

    Similarly, you can read the CPS' guidance on the prosecution of offences involving dangerous dogs here:

    https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/dangerous-dog-offences

    Unfortunately, I must disagree with the advice proffered elsewhere in
    the thread by poster Norman Wells as his interpretation of your
    circumstances seems to have neglected to take into account the effect of
    case law that applies in these circumstances, namely, Sansom v Chief Constable of Kent (1981)  (You can read the case in full here: https://crimeline.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/sansom.pdf)

    Summarising the case, Ms Sansom's dog, of previous good character, got
    into the garden of her next door neighbour, Mr Barnes, who kept tame
    rabbits in hutches.  The dog opened one of the hutches and killed two
    white rabbits in the hutch.  The matter before the court was did this
    course of events make the dog a "dangerous dog", with all the legal implications thereof?

    The court's answer was, unfortunately for you, no it did not.  This was
    a single isolated incident and, (N.B. the following phrase is used a lot
    when referring to the case), "it is in the very nature of dogs to chase, wound and kill other little animals."

    Another quote from the Sansom case is: "I have very great sympathy with
    Mr. Barnes in the loss of his tame rabbits, but I would consider it to
    be straining language too far to attach for that one incident the
    permanent label of "dangerous" to this dog. In my view, as I said at the beginning, he was on this occasion a bad dog and dogs are apt to be bad."

    That was, however, a case brought under the Dogs Act 1871, and decided
    before the enactment of the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991, which is now more relevant. For a successful prosecution, the earlier Act required the
    dog to be classified as a 'dangerous dog', whereas the later Act applies
    to all dogs and requires just that the dog be 'dangerously out of control'.

    In the case cited by Mr Parker, the dog (an Eskimo Sled dog) was not
    deemed a dangerous dog so the case failed under the 1871 Act. It was
    not decided, because that was not relevant under that law, whether the
    dog was 'dangerously out of control', which is a different, but now the current, consideration.

    Section 10(3) of the 1991 Act says:

    "For the purposes of this Act a dog shall be regarded as dangerously out
    of control on any occasion on which there are grounds for reasonable apprehension that it will injure any person or assistance dog, whether
    or not it actually does so".

    The OP says that the dog did not attempt to bite him, but I think he may
    well have had grounds for reasonable apprehension that it would. I
    think most of us confronted by a bull terrier of any description that
    had just killed a cat and that he had to pull off would.

    So, in my view, there is a sustainable case for prosecution under the
    1991 Act.

    In short, a single incident of a dog killing an animal smaller than
    itself is unlikely to attract the attention of the police and it would,
    I suggest, be difficult in the extreme to sue successfully the owner for
    a criminal offence under the Dangerous Dogs Act.

    You asked about the possibility of launching a civil suit against the
    owner for the cost of your vet's bill and this is possible, but by no
    means certain.  (In the Sansom case, the court gave consideration to Mr Barnes suing or endeavouring to sue Ms Sansom and the conclusion was
    that Mr Barnes "would never get his claim on its feet.")  However, teach case turns on it own facts and merit so this may not apply in your case.

    It's a great pity that the Sansom judge did not explain why, despite his apparent certainty, a civil case would not get off the ground. I would
    have thought from first principles that a duty of care applies between
    dog owners and the public, and this seems to confirm it:

    "If you own pets, livestock, or other animals you may be liable for any
    damage they commit. If you keep any animal, you have a duty of care to
    prevent them from causing harm. If you fail to do so, you can be exposed
    to civil liability with anyone who has been harmed being able to take
    action against you for any loss or injury. This is consistent with wider
    tort law with you as the owner being liable reflecting the fact that
    making an animal a defendant is not exactly a viable option.

    Here there is an established duty (arising from your ownership). Breach
    means falling below the standard of a reasonable owner (perhaps letting
    your dog off its lead next to a main road). Causation means that but-for
    your negligence the claimant/their property would not have suffered
    harm. And damage means some kind of loss to the claimant (whether
    personal injury or property damage). If all of this is established, the claimant is entitled to compensation from you."

    https://bridgelawsolicitors.co.uk/duties-responsibilities-animals/#:~:text=If%20you%20own%20pets%2C%20livestock,prevent%20them%20from%20causing%20harm.

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  • From Brian@21:1/5 to Roger Hayter on Mon Dec 4 22:39:47 2023
    Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:
    On 1 Dec 2023 at 09:48:47 GMT, "soup" <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

    On 30/11/2023 23:11, Jimzzr wrote:
    Hi,

    My cat was recently injured and subsequently died from an attack by a
    Staffordshire Bull Terrier that had escaped from a back garden in the next >>> street via a gate that was either not locked or became unlocked in the next >>> street. My cat was in a neighbours front garden where he normally roams
    (these front gardens are open plan with no fencing either between houses or >>> the street).

    The dog was clearly not under the owners control and I would suggest
    negligent in not ensuring the gate was secure.

    Do I have a good civil case for damages (ca £2k vet bills) in this situation.
    As far as I can tell there is no criminal offence. I pulled the dog off but >>> it did not attempt to bite me so I guess there is no criminal offence?
    Obviously I need to prove it was their dog, but is there anything else?

    Mmm so the dog escaped but the cat was roaming.
    why sue(seek damages) for EVERYTHING ? Animals will be animals .

    What we need is an urban environment so hostile to cats that, like American city dwellers, the owners keep them indoors or in a secure yard. Quite why cats are free to tease, torture and kill any small mammal or bird on anyone's property, but predation of cats, when on someone else's property, is somehow considered an offence I do not understand.

    If the dog had attacked a person, or pet accompanying or under the control of a person, I could understand the concern.



    I’m not especially fond of cats but I disagree they are ‘fair game’ for some out of control dog to kill.

    Those who keep aggressive dogs should been responsible for them, including killing cats.

    This kind of dog is bred to be aggressive. Just as other breeds were bred
    for certain features.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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