A lot of pre-action protocols stipulate that the receipient has 14 days in which to reply. But when does that 14 days start from? Is it:
a) The date on the letter,
b) The date on the postmark (for a posted letter), or
c) The date of receipt?
Also, when is the duty to respond discharged? Is it:
a) When the reply is posted, or
b) When the reply is received?
Asking for a friend. (No, really!)
A lot of pre-action protocols stipulate that the receipient has 14 days in
which to reply. But when does that 14 days start from? Is it:
a) The date on the letter,
b) The date on the postmark (for a posted letter), or
c) The date of receipt?
Also, when is the duty to respond discharged? Is it:
a) When the reply is posted, or
b) When the reply is received?
Asking for a friend. (No, really!)
Mark
A lot of pre-action protocols stipulate that the receipient has 14 days in >which to reply. But when does that 14 days start from? Is it:
a) The date on the letter,
b) The date on the postmark (for a posted letter), or
c) The date of receipt?
Also, when is the duty to respond discharged? Is it:
a) When the reply is posted, or
b) When the reply is received?
Asking for a friend. (No, really!)
"Mark Goodge" <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote in message >news:urkvjidesun7p9e83pgcf52m845ugol75q@4ax.com...
A lot of pre-action protocols stipulate that the receipient has 14 days in
which to reply. But when does that 14 days start from? Is it:
a) The date on the letter,
b) The date on the postmark (for a posted letter), or
c) The date of receipt?
Also, when is the duty to respond discharged? Is it:
a) When the reply is posted, or
b) When the reply is received?
Asking for a friend. (No, really!)
Mark
https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part06
You may possibly find all the details on here in 16.17 which
specifically applies the requirements for claim forms but which
presumably also apply here.
If it was sent First Class, for which ideally there will
a Certificate of Posting, then its assumed they will have received
it the next day.
They then have 14 days in which to reply and return it by
First Class Post ideally with their own Certificate of Posting,
to prove that they've done so, if necessary
All of which rests of the assumption that First Class
Post is necessarily delivered the next day.
Other methods are dealt with on the link which won't cut
and paste.
As the dates stamped by the PO on the Certificates of Posting
are the work of 3rd Parties they would take precedence over
anything written on the letter.
bb
In message <urkvjidesun7p9e83pgcf52m845ugol75q@4ax.com>, at 16:08:20 on
Mon, 30 Oct 2023, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> remarked:
A lot of pre-action protocols stipulate that the receipient has 14
days in
which to reply. But when does that 14 days start from? Is it:
a) The date on the letter,
b) The date on the postmark (for a posted letter), or
c) The date of receipt?
Also, when is the duty to respond discharged? Is it:
a) When the reply is posted, or
b) When the reply is received?
Asking for a friend. (No, really!)
What really annoys me is when told something will be done "within 14
working days". Do they really mean three weeks less one day, which seems
to be excessive precision?
On 01/11/2023 08:54, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <urkvjidesun7p9e83pgcf52m845ugol75q@4ax.com>, at 16:08:20 on
Mon, 30 Oct 2023, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> remarked: >>> A lot of pre-action protocols stipulate that the receipient has 14
days in
which to reply. But when does that 14 days start from? Is it:
a) The date on the letter,
b) The date on the postmark (for a posted letter), or
c) The date of receipt?
Also, when is the duty to respond discharged? Is it:
a) When the reply is posted, or
b) When the reply is received?
Asking for a friend. (No, really!)
What really annoys me is when told something will be done "within 14
working days". Do they really mean three weeks less one day, which seems
to be excessive precision?
Excessive precision is a DPD delivery slot. One last week was given to
me as 09.01 to 10.01.
On 01/11/2023 08:54, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <urkvjidesun7p9e83pgcf52m845ugol75q@4ax.com>, at 16:08:20
on Mon, 30 Oct 2023, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> >>remarked:
A lot of pre-action protocols stipulate that the receipient has 14
days in
which to reply. But when does that 14 days start from? Is it:
a) The date on the letter,
b) The date on the postmark (for a posted letter), or
c) The date of receipt?
Also, when is the duty to respond discharged? Is it:
a) When the reply is posted, or
b) When the reply is received?
Asking for a friend. (No, really!)
What really annoys me is when told something will be done "within 14 >>working days". Do they really mean three weeks less one day, which
seems to be excessive precision?
Excessive precision is a DPD delivery slot. One last week was given to
me as 09.01 to 10.01.
Excessive precision is a DPD delivery slot. One last week was given to
me as 09.01 to 10.01.
In message <aZWcnQlwx7Bkh9_4nZ2dnZeNn_ednZ2d@giganews.com>, at 09:33:41 on Wed, 1 Nov 2023, Colin Bignell <cpb@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk> remarked:
On 01/11/2023 08:54, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <urkvjidesun7p9e83pgcf52m845ugol75q@4ax.com>, at 16:08:20 on
Mon, 30 Oct 2023, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
remarked:
A lot of pre-action protocols stipulate that the receipient has 14 days >>>> in
which to reply. But when does that 14 days start from? Is it:
a) The date on the letter,
b) The date on the postmark (for a posted letter), or
c) The date of receipt?
Also, when is the duty to respond discharged? Is it:
a) When the reply is posted, or
b) When the reply is received?
Asking for a friend. (No, really!)
What really annoys me is when told something will be done "within 14
working days". Do they really mean three weeks less one day, which seems >>> to be excessive precision?
Excessive precision is a DPD delivery slot. One last week was given to me >>as 09.01 to 10.01.
Couriers quoting 1hr slots have done that for years. It's not so much precision, as when their route-planning software says they are likely to arrive. The better ones will lurk round the corner to avoid attempting to deliver before the first-named time.
Yesterday a friend was waiting for an Amazon delivery, and the best they could manage was "before 9pm", in the event it arrived at 15.44 (apologies for the precision) but not much comfort for someone who potentially had to wait in all day just in case.
I had a utility company recently tell me they'd get around to answering my fairly simple enquiry "in 14 days", and I challenged this, not just
because it's that ambiguous 14-number again, but seemed an excessive delay [whether calendar days or working days, they were unable/unwilling to tell
me which] and they trotted out the "we are exceptionally busy at the
moment" excuse. <sigh> If you are this busy all year, it's NOT AN
EXCEPTION, IT'S THE NORMAL.
What happened next degenerated into a farce. They phoned me after about a week and asked "what is it you want" despite me having filed chapter and verse earlier. The guy on the phone said in effect "this above my pay
grade", and was about to put down the phone when I asked him to refer it
to a manger.
managers available". Which was obviously code for, "all the managers I
asked told me to blow you off". But I insisted, and he said one would
phone me "in the next three days". A week and a half later... well you can guess.
On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 09:33:41 +0000, Colin Bignell <cpb@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk> wrote:
Excessive precision is a DPD delivery slot. One last week was given to
me as 09.01 to 10.01.
That's not precision. It's a one hour timeslot, based on the estimated ETA from the satnav (ie, 09:31 in this case) and giving half an hour either side so that the driver has some leeway.
On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 09:33:41 +0000, Colin Bignell <cpb@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk> wrote:
Excessive precision is a DPD delivery slot. One last week was given to
me as 09.01 to 10.01.
That's not precision. It's a one hour timeslot, based on the estimated
ETA from the satnav (ie, 09:31 in this case) and giving half an hour
either side so that the driver has some leeway.
On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 09:33:41 +0000, Colin Bignell <cpb@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk> wrote:
Excessive precision is a DPD delivery slot. One last week was given to
me as 09.01 to 10.01.
That's not precision. It's a one hour timeslot, based on the estimated ETA from the satnav (ie, 09:31 in this case) and giving half an hour either side so that the driver has some leeway.
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 13:52:43 +0000, Mark Goodge wrote:
On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 09:33:41 +0000, Colin Bignell
<cpb@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk> wrote:
Excessive precision is a DPD delivery slot. One last week was given to
me as 09.01 to 10.01.
That's not precision. It's a one hour timeslot, based on the estimated
ETA from the satnav (ie, 09:31 in this case) and giving half an hour
either side so that the driver has some leeway.
One couriers "app" won't allow a signature outside the estimated time
window. I've had drivers wait outside for a few minutes until they can
sign the delivery off.
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 13:52:43 +0000, Mark Goodge wrote...
On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 09:33:41 +0000, Colin Bignell
<cpb@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk> wrote:
Excessive precision is a DPD delivery slot. One last week was given to
me as 09.01 to 10.01.
That's not precision. It's a one hour timeslot, based on the estimated ETA >> from the satnav (ie, 09:31 in this case) and giving half an hour either side >> so that the driver has some leeway.
Actually, I think it does give the precision, but with a spurious
accuracy.
There's a difference between precision and accuracy, as explained here
(see the graph for a quick summary). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_and_precision
The DPD delivery estimate may or may not be accurate, but it is telling
you the expected precision: one hour.
On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 09:33:41 +0000, Colin Bignell
<cpb@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk> wrote:
Excessive precision is a DPD delivery slot. One last week was given to
me as 09.01 to 10.01.
That's not precision. It's a one hour timeslot, based on the estimated ETA from the satnav (ie, 09:31 in this case) and giving half an hour either side so that the driver has some leeway.
On 2023-11-01, Mark Goodge wrote:
On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 09:33:41 +0000, Colin Bignell
<cpb@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk> wrote:
Excessive precision is a DPD delivery slot. One last week was given to
me as 09.01 to 10.01.
That's not precision. It's a one hour timeslot, based on the estimated ETA >> from the satnav (ie, 09:31 in this case) and giving half an hour either side >> so that the driver has some leeway.
I would have guessed something like a prediction of 09:21 with -20 +40 padding, because people are less likely to complain if you're early
(relative to what they've been led to expect) than if you're late.
On 01/11/2023 13:52, Mark Goodge wrote:
On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 09:33:41 +0000, Colin Bignell
<cpb@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk> wrote:
Excessive precision is a DPD delivery slot. One last week was given
me as 09.01 to 10.01.
That's not precision. It's a one hour timeslot, based on the
estimated ETA from the satnav (ie, 09:31 in this case) and giving
half an hour either side so that the driver has some leeway.
IME, DPD nearly always arrive bang on the first time given, although
one driver did ask for my permission to delivery two minutes early.
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 09:33:18 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
<jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> wrote:
On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 13:52:43 +0000, Mark Goodge wrote:
On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 09:33:41 +0000, Colin Bignell
<cpb@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk> wrote:
Excessive precision is a DPD delivery slot. One last week was given to >>>>me as 09.01 to 10.01.
That's not precision. It's a one hour timeslot, based on the estimated
ETA from the satnav (ie, 09:31 in this case) and giving half an hour
either side so that the driver has some leeway.
One couriers "app" won't allow a signature outside the estimated time >>window. I've had drivers wait outside for a few minutes until they can
sign the delivery off.
That's deliberate, it's to avoid giving the drivers any kind of incentive to >drive dangerously
in order to reduce overall travelling time and thus knock
off early.
Of course, it doesn't stop them driving dangerously to make up time after an >unexpected delay. But there isn't really any easy way to avoid that.
Mark
On 2023-11-01, Mark Goodge wrote:
On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 09:33:41 +0000, Colin Bignell >><cpb@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk> wrote:
Excessive precision is a DPD delivery slot. One last week was given to
me as 09.01 to 10.01.
That's not precision. It's a one hour timeslot, based on the estimated ETA >> from the satnav (ie, 09:31 in this case) and giving half an hour either side >> so that the driver has some leeway.
I would have guessed something like a prediction of 09:21 with -20 +40 >padding, because people are less likely to complain if you're early
(relative to what they've been led to expect) than if you're late.
In message <-_mcnWjbLoGv-d74nZ2dnZeNn_SdnZ2d@giganews.com>, at 08:56:53
on Thu, 2 Nov 2023, Colin Bignell <cpb@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk>
remarked:
On 01/11/2023 13:52, Mark Goodge wrote:
On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 09:33:41 +0000, Colin Bignell
<cpb@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk> wrote:
Excessive precision is a DPD delivery slot. One last week was given
me as 09.01 to 10.01.
That's not precision. It's a one hour timeslot, based on the
estimated ETA from the satnav (ie, 09:31 in this case) and giving half >>>an hour either side so that the driver has some leeway.
IME, DPD nearly always arrive bang on the first time given, although one >>driver did ask for my permission to delivery two minutes early.
I mentioned the "lurking around the corner so as not to be earlier", in
a previous posting. But every courier other than DPD tends to arrive
10-15 minutes *after* the end of the announced window.
I had a (work) Amazon delivery disappear in transit. The tracking showed
it was on the industrial estate. And then with 10 minutes to go an email
from Amazon saying sorry they couldn't fulfil the order and cancelling it
and refunding. Had to reorder.
My colleague said it had happened before but the item was delivered ...
On Fri, 03 Nov 2023 21:10:15 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <-_mcnWjbLoGv-d74nZ2dnZeNn_SdnZ2d@giganews.com>, at 08:56:53
on Thu, 2 Nov 2023, Colin Bignell <cpb@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk>
remarked:
On 01/11/2023 13:52, Mark Goodge wrote:
On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 09:33:41 +0000, Colin Bignell
<cpb@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk> wrote:
Excessive precision is a DPD delivery slot. One last week was given
me as 09.01 to 10.01.
That's not precision. It's a one hour timeslot, based on the
estimated ETA from the satnav (ie, 09:31 in this case) and giving half >>>> an hour either side so that the driver has some leeway.
IME, DPD nearly always arrive bang on the first time given, although one >>> driver did ask for my permission to delivery two minutes early.
I mentioned the "lurking around the corner so as not to be earlier", in
a previous posting. But every courier other than DPD tends to arrive
10-15 minutes *after* the end of the announced window.
I had a (work) Amazon delivery disappear in transit. The tracking showed
it was on the industrial estate. And then with 10 minutes to go an email
from Amazon saying sorry they couldn't fulfil the order and cancelling it
and refunding. Had to reorder.
My colleague said it had happened before but the item was delivered ...
On 04/11/2023 09:10, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Fri, 03 Nov 2023 21:10:15 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <-_mcnWjbLoGv-d74nZ2dnZeNn_SdnZ2d@giganews.com>, at
08:56:53
on Thu, 2 Nov 2023, Colin Bignell <cpb@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk>
remarked:
On 01/11/2023 13:52, Mark Goodge wrote:
On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 09:33:41 +0000, Colin Bignell
<cpb@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk> wrote:
Excessive precision is a DPD delivery slot. One last week was given >>>>>>
me as 09.01 to 10.01.
That's not precision. It's a one hour timeslot, based on the
estimated ETA from the satnav (ie, 09:31 in this case) and giving half >>>>> an hour either side so that the driver has some leeway.
IME, DPD nearly always arrive bang on the first time given, although one >>>> driver did ask for my permission to delivery two minutes early.
I mentioned the "lurking around the corner so as not to be earlier", in
a previous posting. But every courier other than DPD tends to arrive
10-15 minutes *after* the end of the announced window.
I had a (work) Amazon delivery disappear in transit. The tracking
showed it was on the industrial estate. And then with 10 minutes to
go an email from Amazon saying sorry they couldn't fulfil the order
and cancelling it and refunding. Had to reorder.
My colleague said it had happened before but the item was delivered
...
Your colleague's experience is the same as mine. A simple drive-by,
usually at the weekend, saying there was no one at the work
establishment yet the premises was open all of this time.
On 01/11/2023 08:54, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <urkvjidesun7p9e83pgcf52m845ugol75q@4ax.com>, at
16:08:20 on Mon, 30 Oct 2023, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> remarked:
A lot of pre-action protocols stipulate that the receipient has 14
days in
which to reply. But when does that 14 days start from? Is it:
a) The date on the letter,
b) The date on the postmark (for a posted letter), or
c) The date of receipt?
Also, when is the duty to respond discharged? Is it:
a) When the reply is posted, or
b) When the reply is received?
Asking for a friend. (No, really!)
What really annoys me is when told something will be done "within
14 working days". Do they really mean three weeks less one day,
which seems to be excessive precision?
Excessive precision is a DPD delivery slot. One last week was given
to me as 09.01 to 10.01.
In message <ui6gp8$3j215$3@dont-email.me>, at 22:32:08 on Sat, 4 Nov
2023,
Fredxx <fredxx@spam.invalid> remarked:
[quoted text muted]
[quoted text muted]
[quoted text muted]
The most egregious I experienced (apart from the times I was literally standing next to the front door and a postcard pops through the
letterbox saying they couldn't deliver because no-one was in)
On Sun, 05 Nov 2023 07:28:57 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <ui6gp8$3j215$3@dont-email.me>, at 22:32:08 on Sat, 4 Nov
2023,
Fredxx <fredxx@spam.invalid> remarked:
[quoted text muted]
[quoted text muted]
[quoted text muted]
The most egregious I experienced (apart from the times I was literally
standing next to the front door and a postcard pops through the
letterbox saying they couldn't deliver because no-one was in)
I also had that. I opened the door to a very embarrassed postie who
admitted they rarely carried packages for delivery and pre wrote the
cards before they set off.
Our son was teething at the time so I had been up all night and was
watching through the window.
What really got my back up was I couldn't collect it that day. It had to
"go through the system" and was only available to collect the following
day.
In message <ui7s85$3v3f2$4@dont-email.me>, at 10:53:57 on Sun, 5 Nov
2023, Jethro_uk <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> remarked:
On Sun, 05 Nov 2023 07:28:57 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <ui6gp8$3j215$3@dont-email.me>, at 22:32:08 on Sat, 4 Nov
2023,
Fredxx <fredxx@spam.invalid> remarked:
[quoted text muted]
[quoted text muted]
[quoted text muted]
The most egregious I experienced (apart from the times I was literally
standing next to the front door and a postcard pops through the
letterbox saying they couldn't deliver because no-one was in)
I also had that. I opened the door to a very embarrassed postie who
admitted they rarely carried packages for delivery and pre wrote the
cards before they set off.
Our son was teething at the time so I had been up all night and was
watching through the window.
What really got my back up was I couldn't collect it that day. It had to
"go through the system" and was only available to collect the following
day.
One of the failure mechanisms is the errant package is in the delivery person's car/van, and won't be back at the depot until the next morning
when they pick up the next batch.
On 05/11/2023 18:10, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <ui7s85$3v3f2$4@dont-email.me>, at 10:53:57 on Sun, 5 Nov
2023, Jethro_uk <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> remarked:
On Sun, 05 Nov 2023 07:28:57 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <ui6gp8$3j215$3@dont-email.me>, at 22:32:08 on Sat, 4 Nov
2023,
Fredxx <fredxx@spam.invalid> remarked:
[quoted text muted]
[quoted text muted]
[quoted text muted]
The most egregious I experienced (apart from the times I was literally >>>> standing next to the front door and a postcard pops through the
letterbox saying they couldn't deliver because no-one was in)
I also had that. I opened the door to a very embarrassed postie who
admitted they rarely carried packages for delivery and pre wrote the
cards before they set off.
Our son was teething at the time so I had been up all night and was
watching through the window.
What really got my back up was I couldn't collect it that day. It had to >>> "go through the system" and was only available to collect the following
day.
One of the failure mechanisms is the errant package is in the
delivery person's car/van, and won't be back at the depot until the
next morning when they pick up the next batch.
Are you sure the parcel made it to the van in this case?
Simon Parker <simonparkerulm@gmail.com> Wrote in message:
On 30/10/2023 16:08, Mark Goodge wrote:
A lot of pre-action protocols stipulate that the receipient has 14 days in which to reply. But when does that 14 days start from? Is it:
a) The date on the letter,> b) The date on the postmark (for a posted letter), or
c) The date of receipt?
Also, when is the duty to respond discharged? Is it:
a) When the reply is posted, or
b) When the reply is received?
Asking for a friend. (No, really!)
Mr Bookcase has already pointed you in the direction of CPR Rule 16.17.
I would also direct you to CPR Part 2, Rules 2.8 [1] through 2.11 which includes useful examples.
Regards
S.P.
[1] https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part02#2.8
Simon Parker <simonparkerulm@gmail.com> Wrote in message:
On 30/10/2023 16:08, Mark Goodge wrote:
A lot of pre-action protocols stipulate that the receipient has 14 days in which to reply. But when does that 14 days start from? Is it:
a) The date on the letter,> b) The date on the postmark (for a posted letter), or
c) The date of receipt?
Also, when is the duty to respond discharged? Is it:
a) When the reply is posted, or
b) When the reply is received?
Asking for a friend. (No, really!)
Mr Bookcase has already pointed you in the direction of CPR Rule 16.17.
I would also direct you to CPR Part 2, Rules 2.8 [1] through 2.11 which includes useful examples.
Regards
S.P.
[1] https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part02#2.8
Simon Parker <simonparkerulm@gmail.com> Wrote in message:
On 30/10/2023 16:08, Mark Goodge wrote:
A lot of pre-action protocols stipulate that the receipient has 14 days in >>> which to reply. But when does that 14 days start from? Is it:
a) The date on the letter,> b) The date on the postmark (for a posted
letter), or
c) The date of receipt?
Also, when is the duty to respond discharged? Is it:
a) When the reply is posted, or
b) When the reply is received?
Asking for a friend. (No, really!)
Mr Bookcase has already pointed you in the direction of CPR Rule 16.17.
I would also direct you to CPR Part 2, Rules 2.8 [1] through 2.11 which
includes useful examples.
Regards
S.P.
[1] https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part02#2.8 >>
Thanks for that link - very, very useful guidelines. It clears up
that you do not include the first and last (incomplete) days, ie
it only counts the full days. It also clarifies the exclusion of
weekend etc. days for a period of 5 days or less.
Thanks.
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