On 24/10/2023 20:02, Robert wrote:

On 24/10/2023 17:03, Tony The Welsh Twat wrote:

They're not exactly inconspicuous?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67204041

According to

https://www.vesselfinder.com/vessels/details/9229178

Verity is 91m long and weighs 2601 tonnes.

Similarly

https://www.vesselfinder.com/vessels/details/9488097

Polesie is 190m long and weighs 24055 tonnes.

How do you manage to hit something that big in 50 square miles of
empty ocean?

Someone has to be looking  ! I assume there are some radar based
proximity alarms but again there has to be someone around on the bridge
to take notice.
From my limited experience of reading past Maritime Enquiries ,
"failure to keep a proper lookout " is the major cause of collisions.

Remember the Marchioness disaster. A pleasure boat that sank on the
Thames, 51 people died, because the lookout on the dredger Bowbelle was
not paying sufficient attention and had been drinking.

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They're not exactly inconspicuous?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67204041

According to

https://www.vesselfinder.com/vessels/details/9229178

Verity is 91m long and weighs 2601 tonnes.

Similarly

https://www.vesselfinder.com/vessels/details/9488097

Polesie is 190m long and weighs 24055 tonnes.

How do you manage to hit something that big in 50 square miles of empty ocean?

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On 2023-10-24, Tony The Welsh Twat <tonythewelshtwat@gmail.com> wrote:

They're not exactly inconspicuous?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67204041

According to

https://www.vesselfinder.com/vessels/details/9229178

Verity is 91m long and weighs 2601 tonnes.

Similarly

https://www.vesselfinder.com/vessels/details/9488097

Polesie is 190m long and weighs 24055 tonnes.

How do you manage to hit something that big in 50 square miles of
empty ocean?

Well I'm certainly not an expert, but firstly there are shipping "lanes"
since these big ships are presumably almost always travelling between
a small number of large ports and are all going to want to take the shortest/safest route between them, so they're not just randomly
distributed throughout those 50 square miles, there's a reason they're
likely to be in the vicinity of each other. The Strait of Dover,
which is not that far from where this collision happened, is one of
the busiest shipping lanes in the world.

And secondly big ships can take a really long time to steer or stop.

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On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 09:03:21 -0700, Tony The Welsh Twat wrote:

They're not exactly inconspicuous?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67204041

According to

https://www.vesselfinder.com/vessels/details/9229178

Verity is 91m long and weighs 2601 tonnes.

Similarly

https://www.vesselfinder.com/vessels/details/9488097

Polesie is 190m long and weighs 24055 tonnes.

How do you manage to hit something that big in 50 square miles of empty ocean?

Because they can take a very long time to turn around or stop.

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On 24/10/2023 17:03, Tony The Welsh Twat wrote:

They're not exactly inconspicuous?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67204041

According to

https://www.vesselfinder.com/vessels/details/9229178

Verity is 91m long and weighs 2601 tonnes.

Similarly

https://www.vesselfinder.com/vessels/details/9488097

Polesie is 190m long and weighs 24055 tonnes.

How do you manage to hit something that big in 50 square miles of empty ocean?

Someone has to be looking ! I assume there are some radar based
proximity alarms but again there has to be someone around on the bridge
to take notice.
From my limited experience of reading past Maritime Enquiries ,
"failure to keep a proper lookout " is the major cause of collisions.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 24/10/2023 19:14, Jon Ribbens wrote:

On 2023-10-24, Tony The Welsh Twat <tonythewelshtwat@gmail.com> wrote:

They're not exactly inconspicuous?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67204041

According to

https://www.vesselfinder.com/vessels/details/9229178

Verity is 91m long and weighs 2601 tonnes.

Similarly

https://www.vesselfinder.com/vessels/details/9488097

Polesie is 190m long and weighs 24055 tonnes.

How do you manage to hit something that big in 50 square miles of
empty ocean?

Well I'm certainly not an expert, but firstly there are shipping "lanes" since these big ships are presumably almost always travelling between
a small number of large ports and are all going to want to take the shortest/safest route between them, so they're not just randomly
distributed throughout those 50 square miles, there's a reason they're
likely to be in the vicinity of each other.

They were also on routes that had to cross at some point. Verity was
crossing from Bremen in Germany to England, while Polesie was sailing
from the more northerly port of Hamburg, heading for Spain.

The Strait of Dover,

which is not that far from where this collision happened, is one of
the busiest shipping lanes in the world.

And secondly big ships can take a really long time to steer or stop.

In addition, while The Bahamas are considered to be one of the better
places to provide a flag of convenience, they have been criticised for
allowing ship owners to hire foreign (to the Bahamas) sailors on low
wages and working long hours. That does not make for efficient crew and
it is quite possible that this was due to poor watch keeping.

--
Colin Bignell

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On 24/10/2023 17:03, Tony The Welsh Twat wrote:

They're not exactly inconspicuous?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67204041

In the pitch black of night and out at sea they are fairly low in the
water and pretty much sea coloured.

According to

https://www.vesselfinder.com/vessels/details/9229178

Verity is 91m long and weighs 2601 tonnes.

Similarly

https://www.vesselfinder.com/vessels/details/9488097

Polesie is 190m long and weighs 24055 tonnes.

How do you manage to hit something that big in 50 square miles of empty ocean?

As a general rule it is because their ability to accelerate or steer is
very limited and the turning circle immense. At the time of the
collision it was still dark so radar contact and the scope for human
error due to tiredness is greatest between 0300 and 0500 local time.

If the two ships were headed in such a way as to cross the same spot at
some future time they should notice and follow the appropriate rules of
the sea but if they aren't paying attention for whatever reason they may
not realise that they are on a collision course until it is too late.

Damage done in a collision scales with the mass ratio.
AOTBE The bigger heavier vessel is supposed to give way (if it notices).

Steam gives way to sail etc. Nearly 10:1 mass ratio means that the
smaller vessel didn't stand a chance.

--
Martin Brown

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On 25/10/2023 07:43, Colin Bignell wrote:

Also, if it is not constrained by its draft. Tankers going into the
Fawley oil refinery used to* fly the unofficial signal flags F O. The O standing for Off. They wouldn't be able to give way to anybody on their
way up the dredged channels.

Hopefully, they were coordinated, so they didn't meet one going the
other way?

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On 24/10/2023 20:25, Martin Brown wrote:

On 24/10/2023 17:03, Tony The Welsh Twat wrote:

They're not exactly inconspicuous?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67204041

In the pitch black of night and out at sea they are fairly low in the
water and pretty much sea coloured.

According to

https://www.vesselfinder.com/vessels/details/9229178

Verity is 91m long and weighs 2601 tonnes.

Similarly

https://www.vesselfinder.com/vessels/details/9488097

Polesie is 190m long and weighs 24055 tonnes.

How do you manage to hit something that big in 50 square miles of
empty ocean?

As a general rule it is because their ability to accelerate or steer is
very limited and the turning circle immense. At the time of the
collision it was still dark so radar contact and the scope for human
error due to tiredness is greatest between 0300 and 0500 local time.

If the two ships were headed in such a way as to cross the same spot at
some future time they should notice and follow the appropriate rules of
the sea but if they aren't paying attention for whatever reason they may
not realise that they are on a collision course until it is too late.

Damage done in a collision scales with the mass ratio.
AOTBE The bigger heavier vessel is supposed to give way (if it notices).

Also, if it is not constrained by its draft. Tankers going into the
Fawley oil refinery used to* fly the unofficial signal flags F O. The O standing for Off. They wouldn't be able to give way to anybody on their
way up the dredged channels.

* They may still do, but it is a long time since I sailed in The Solent.

Steam gives way to sail etc. Nearly 10:1 mass ratio means that the
smaller vessel didn't stand a chance.

--
Colin Bignell

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On 25/10/2023 12:21, GB wrote:

On 25/10/2023 07:43, Colin Bignell wrote:

Also, if it is not constrained by its draft. Tankers going into the
Fawley oil refinery used to* fly the unofficial signal flags F O. The
O standing for Off. They wouldn't be able to give way to anybody on
their way up the dredged channels.

Hopefully, they were coordinated, so they didn't meet one going the
other way?

The Southampton Vessel Traffic Services control them and the cruise
liners coming in and out of Southampton. The flag signal is for the
small boats that are not controlled.

--
Colin Bignell

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 24/10/2023 20:25, Martin Brown wrote:

As a general rule it is because their ability to accelerate or steer is
very limited and the turning circle immense. At the time of the
collision it was still dark so radar contact and the scope for human
error due to tiredness is greatest between 0300 and 0500 local time.

If the two ships were headed in such a way as to cross the same spot at
some future time they should notice and follow the appropriate rules of
the sea but if they aren't paying attention for whatever reason they may
not realise that they are on a collision course until it is too late.

Damage done in a collision scales with the mass ratio.
AOTBE The bigger heavier vessel is supposed to give way (if it notices).

Steam gives way to sail etc. Nearly 10:1 mass ratio means that the
smaller vessel didn't stand a chance.

The COLREGS are a bit more complex than "The bigger heavier vessel is
supposed to give way". In fact I don't even recall seeing that. My understanding is that if anything it's the other way around. Since I'm
rarely out in anything bigger than a sailing dinghy that turns on a
sixpence this hasn't been an issue.

<https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%201050/volume-1050-I-15824-English.pdf>

I think Rule 15 should have applied

"Rule 15. CROSSING SITUATION
When two power-driven vessels are crossing so as to involve risk of
collision, the vessel which has the other on her own starboard side
shall keep out of the way and shall, if the circumstances of the case
admit, avoid crossing ahead of the other vessel."


(FTAOD Starboard is the right hand side of the vessel when looking
towards the front)

However see also 17 (II)

"The latter vessel may, however, take action to avoid collision by her manoeuvre alone, as soon as it becomes apparent to her that the vessel
required to keep out of the way is not taking appropriate action in
compliance with these Rules."

The steering mentioned already is a major point. Large ships have
turning circles in miles - that's why they need tugs coming in to port.

Andy

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On 25/10/2023 in message <uhb942$qfn7$1@dont-email.me> Vir Campestris wrote:

"Rule 15. CROSSING SITUATION
When two power-driven vessels are crossing so as to involve risk of >collision, the vessel which has the other on her own starboard side shall >keep out of the way and shall, if the circumstances of the case admit,
avoid crossing ahead of the other vessel."

That's the standard rule, give way to the vessel on the right (starboard).
I think any notion that a commercial vessel will give way to a private
vessel (sail or otherwise) will just qualify you for a Darwin award.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
All those who believe in psychokinesis raise my hand.

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On 24-Oct-23 19:14, Jon Ribbens wrote:

On 2023-10-24, Tony The Welsh Twat <tonythewelshtwat@gmail.com> wrote:

They're not exactly inconspicuous?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67204041

According to

https://www.vesselfinder.com/vessels/details/9229178

Verity is 91m long and weighs 2601 tonnes.

Similarly

https://www.vesselfinder.com/vessels/details/9488097

Polesie is 190m long and weighs 24055 tonnes.

How do you manage to hit something that big in 50 square miles of
empty ocean?

Well I'm certainly not an expert, but firstly there are shipping "lanes" since these big ships are presumably almost always travelling between
a small number of large ports and are all going to want to take the shortest/safest route between them, so they're not just randomly
distributed throughout those 50 square miles, there's a reason they're
likely to be in the vicinity of each other. The Strait of Dover,
which is not that far from where this collision happened, is one of
the busiest shipping lanes in the world.

And secondly big ships can take a really long time to steer or stop.

Those shipping lanes are further constrained by there being a lot of
shallow water in that area.
Shallow water and large vessels do _not_ mix well.

--
Sam Plusnet

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Also, if it is not constrained by its draft. Tankers going into the
Fawley oil refinery used to* fly the unofficial signal flags F O. The O standing for Off. They wouldn't be able to give way to anybody on their
way up the dredged channels.

Nice interpretation, but in reality just an indication of the
destination: Fawley Oil.

Jeff

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 26/10/2023 09:16, Jeff wrote:

Also, if it is not constrained by its draft. Tankers going into the
Fawley oil refinery used to* fly the unofficial signal flags F O. The
O standing for Off. They wouldn't be able to give way to anybody on
their way up the dredged channels.

Nice interpretation, but in reality just an indication of the
destination: Fawley Oil.

Jeff

I prefer the version I was told :-)

--
Colin Bignell

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 25/10/2023 19:01, Jeff Gaines wrote:

That's the standard rule, give way to the vessel on the right
(starboard). I think any notion that a commercial vessel will give way
to a private vessel (sail or otherwise) will just qualify you for a
Darwin award.

A few years ago I was on a cross-channel ferry coming in to Portsmouth
when the ship's hooter went off 5 times - "You are running into danger".

A look over the bow showed a small gaff-rigged yacht uncomfortably
close. And as far as I could tell determinedly _not_ looking up at the
ferry!

Andy

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On 27/10/2023 in message <uhg2l4$27a42$1@dont-email.me> Vir Campestris
wrote:

On 25/10/2023 19:01, Jeff Gaines wrote:

That's the standard rule, give way to the vessel on the right
(starboard). I think any notion that a commercial vessel will give way to >>a private vessel (sail or otherwise) will just qualify you for a Darwin >>award.

A few years ago I was on a cross-channel ferry coming in to Portsmouth
when the ship's hooter went off 5 times - "You are running into danger".

A look over the bow showed a small gaff-rigged yacht uncomfortably close.
And as far as I could tell determinedly not looking up at the ferry!

Andy

On the tidal Thames it is:

5 or more short blasts - You are taking insufficient action to keep clear
of me

Or, in the vernacular "get out the *** way".

PDF of the rules: http://www.bluestarsurveys.co.uk/THAMES_recreational_users_guide.pdf

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
If Björn & Benny had been called Syd and Dave then ABBA would have been
called ASDA.

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On 27/10/2023 14:16, Jeff Gaines wrote:

On 27/10/2023 in message <uhg2l4$27a42$1@dont-email.me> Vir Campestris
wrote:

On 25/10/2023 19:01, Jeff Gaines wrote:

That's the standard rule, give way to the vessel on the right
(starboard). I think any notion that a commercial vessel will give
way  to a private vessel (sail or otherwise) will just qualify you
for a  Darwin award.

A few years ago I was on a cross-channel ferry coming in to Portsmouth
when the ship's hooter went off 5 times - "You are running into danger".

A look over the bow showed a small gaff-rigged yacht uncomfortably
close. And as far as I could tell determinedly not looking up at the
ferry!

Andy

On the tidal Thames it is:

5 or more short blasts - You are taking insufficient action to keep
clear of me

Or, in the vernacular "get out the *** way".

PDF of the rules: http://www.bluestarsurveys.co.uk/THAMES_recreational_users_guide.pdf

I guess that's taken from the COLREGS <https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%201050/volume-1050-I-15824-English.pdf>

Part D, Rule 34(d)

"d) When vessels in sight of one another are approaching each other and
from any cause either vessel fails to understand the intentions or
actions of the other, or is in doubt whether sufficient action is being
taken by the other to avoid collision, the vessel in doubt shall
immediately indicate such doubt by giving at least five short and rapid
blasts on the whistle."

Andy

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