Is it legal to public support Hamas in the Uk or would it be breaking
the law because the Government have said that Hamas is a terrorist organisation?


--
Michael Chare

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On 2023-10-20, Michael Chare <mUNDERSCOREnews@chareDOTorg.uk> wrote:

Is it legal to public support Hamas in the Uk or would it be breaking
the law because the Government have said that Hamas is a terrorist organisation?

It is an offence punishable by up to 14 years in prison under s12
of the Terrorism Act 2000:

(1) A person commits an offence if-
(a) he invites support for a proscribed organisation, and
(b) the support is not, or is not restricted to, the provision of
money or other property

Hamas is a proscribed organisation under that Act:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/proscribed-terror-groups-or-organisations--2/proscribed-terrorist-groups-or-organisations-accessible-version

(Sending money or property to terrorists isn't an offence under that
section because it's an offence under a different section of the same
Act.)

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On 20/10/2023 23:41, Jon Ribbens wrote:

On 2023-10-20, Michael Chare <mUNDERSCOREnews@chareDOTorg.uk> wrote:

Is it legal to public support Hamas in the Uk or would it be breaking
the law because the Government have said that Hamas is a terrorist
organisation?

It is an offence punishable by up to 14 years in prison under s12
of the Terrorism Act 2000:

(1) A person commits an offence if-
(a) he invites support for a proscribed organisation, and
(b) the support is not, or is not restricted to, the provision of
money or other property

Hamas is a proscribed organisation under that Act:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/proscribed-terror-groups-or-organisations--2/proscribed-terrorist-groups-or-organisations-accessible-version

(Sending money or property to terrorists isn't an offence under that
section because it's an offence under a different section of the same
Act.)

So if I propose a petition to to remove Hamas from being a proscribed organisation could find myself in gaol? How would "invited support" be
treated in this context?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 2023-10-20, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.invalid> wrote:

On 20/10/2023 23:41, Jon Ribbens wrote:

On 2023-10-20, Michael Chare <mUNDERSCOREnews@chareDOTorg.uk> wrote:

Is it legal to public support Hamas in the Uk or would it be breaking
the law because the Government have said that Hamas is a terrorist
organisation?

It is an offence punishable by up to 14 years in prison under s12
of the Terrorism Act 2000:

(1) A person commits an offence if-
(a) he invites support for a proscribed organisation, and
(b) the support is not, or is not restricted to, the provision of >> money or other property

Hamas is a proscribed organisation under that Act:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/proscribed-terror-groups-or-organisations--2/proscribed-terrorist-groups-or-organisations-accessible-version

(Sending money or property to terrorists isn't an offence under that
section because it's an offence under a different section of the same
Act.)

So if I propose a petition to to remove Hamas from being a proscribed organisation could find myself in gaol? How would "invited support" be treated in this context?

Well, the offence is deliberately vaguely defined. See for example
the "Home Secretary" trying to instruct the police to treat merely
saying "from the river to the sea" as a terrorism offence. Arguing
that Hamas should not be proscribed might depend on what arguments
you were using.

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On 21/10/2023 01:30, Jon Ribbens wrote:

Arguing
that Hamas should not be proscribed might depend on what arguments
you were using.

And the colour of your skin.

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"Fredxx" <fredxx@spam.invalid> wrote in message news:ugv2nd$1c564$1@dont-email.me...

On 20/10/2023 23:41, Jon Ribbens wrote:

On 2023-10-20, Michael Chare <mUNDERSCOREnews@chareDOTorg.uk> wrote:

Is it legal to public support Hamas in the Uk or would it be breaking
the law because the Government have said that Hamas is a terrorist
organisation?

It is an offence punishable by up to 14 years in prison under s12
of the Terrorism Act 2000:

(1) A person commits an offence if-
(a) he invites support for a proscribed organisation, and
(b) the support is not, or is not restricted to, the provision
of
money or other property

Hamas is a proscribed organisation under that Act:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/proscribed-terror-groups-or-organisations--2/proscribed-terrorist-groups-or-organisations-accessible-version

(Sending money or property to terrorists isn't an offence under that
section because it's an offence under a different section of the same
Act.)

So if I propose a petition to to remove Hamas from being a proscribed organisation could find myself in gaol? How would "invited support" be treated in this context?

It would appear that you'd first have to admit to being a member or at least
a supporter of the said terrorist organisation

quote:

Deproscription

The Home Secretary will consider deproscription on application only.
Section 4 of the Terrorism Act 2000* provides that the organisation
or any person affected by a proscription can submit a signed, written application to the Home Secretary requesting that they consider whether
a specified organisation should be removed from the list of proscribed organisations.

unquote:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/proscribed-terror-groups-or-organisations--2/proscribed-terrorist-groups-or-organisations-accessible-version

So that basically you fill in the application form and sign it admitting
you're a member or supporter of a proscribed organisation. Otherwise how
would you be affected by its proscription ? ** And so are immediately
arrested and the signed form used as damning evidence at your
subsequent trial

Your application form will either get lost or go to the bottom of the "Deproscription Application Form pile in the Home Office, (Despite 4A)
below). Hopefully to be finally decided on before you've served the whole
of your sentence.

Please note there is no reference to any immunity from prosecution

Who said these people (take your pick) are stupid ?


bb

* This is the "Latest Available (Revised)" Version of the appropriate
section of the 2000 Terrorism Act

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/11/section/4


quote

Deproscription: application.

[F1(1)An application may be made to the Secretary of State for an
order under section 3(3) or (8)—

(a)removing an organisation from Schedule 2, or

(b)providing for a name to cease to be treated as a name for an
organisation listed in that Schedule.]

(2)An application may be made by—

(a)the organisation, or

(b)any person affected by the organisation’s proscription [F2or
by the treatment of the name as a name for the organisation.] .

(3)The Secretary of State shall make regulations prescribing the
procedure for applications under this section.

(4)The regulations shall, in particular—

(a)require the Secretary of State to determine an application within
a specified period of time, and

(b)require an application to state the grounds on which it is made.**


unquote:


** Its doubtful claiming general Civil Liberties infringements
would cut much ice. But why *this* organisation in particular ?

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On Fri, 20 Oct 2023 23:20:16 +0100, Michael Chare wrote:

Is it legal to public support Hamas in the Uk or would it be breaking
the law because the Government have said that Hamas is a terrorist organisation?

How long does a terrorist category last:

JERUSALEM -- In one of those extraordinary turnarounds of history, the
position of the Palestinians today mirrors the position the Jews were in
nearly 60 years ago, between the end of World War II and the founding of
the state of Israel.

In those years, there were two Jewish paramilitary organizations in
Palestine -- the Haganah and the Palmach -- affiliated with David Ben-
Gurion and the Jewish Agency, which represented the mainstream of the
Jewish community.

At the same time, there were two other, more militant organizations -- the
IZL, commonly known as the Irgun, and LHI, which was also known as the
Stern Gang. Demanding free immigration for Jews and national independence,
the Irgun and the Sternists used tactics that went far beyond those of the Haganah and the Palmach: They killed British security personnel and
government officials, but the explosives they planted in urban centers
also caused the deaths of numerous civilians, both Arabs and Jews.

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On 21 Oct 2023 at 16:26:27 BST, "jon" <jon@nospam.cn> wrote:

On Fri, 20 Oct 2023 23:20:16 +0100, Michael Chare wrote:

Is it legal to public support Hamas in the Uk or would it be breaking
the law because the Government have said that Hamas is a terrorist
organisation?

How long does a terrorist category last:

It lasts until the Americans (mainly) decide they are useful allies. Not only the 1948 Zionist terrorists but Bin Laden and Al Quaeda are good examples. Though the latter were redesignated as terrorists once the Russians were out
of Afghanistan.

JERUSALEM -- In one of those extraordinary turnarounds of history, the position of the Palestinians today mirrors the position the Jews were in nearly 60 years ago, between the end of World War II and the founding of
the state of Israel.

In those years, there were two Jewish paramilitary organizations in
Palestine -- the Haganah and the Palmach -- affiliated with David Ben-
Gurion and the Jewish Agency, which represented the mainstream of the
Jewish community.

At the same time, there were two other, more militant organizations -- the IZL, commonly known as the Irgun, and LHI, which was also known as the
Stern Gang. Demanding free immigration for Jews and national independence, the Irgun and the Sternists used tactics that went far beyond those of the Haganah and the Palmach: They killed British security personnel and government officials, but the explosives they planted in urban centers
also caused the deaths of numerous civilians, both Arabs and Jews.

--
Roger Hayter

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On 2023-10-21, billy bookcase wrote:

"Fredxx" <fredxx@spam.invalid> wrote in message news:ugv2nd$1c564$1@dont-email.me...

On 20/10/2023 23:41, Jon Ribbens wrote:

On 2023-10-20, Michael Chare <mUNDERSCOREnews@chareDOTorg.uk> wrote:

Is it legal to public support Hamas in the Uk or would it be breaking
the law because the Government have said that Hamas is a terrorist
organisation?

It is an offence punishable by up to 14 years in prison under s12
of the Terrorism Act 2000:

(1) A person commits an offence if-
(a) he invites support for a proscribed organisation, and
(b) the support is not, or is not restricted to, the provision
of
money or other property

Hamas is a proscribed organisation under that Act:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/proscribed-terror-groups-or-organisations--2/proscribed-terrorist-groups-or-organisations-accessible-version

(Sending money or property to terrorists isn't an offence under that
section because it's an offence under a different section of the same
Act.)

So if I propose a petition to to remove Hamas from being a proscribed
organisation could find myself in gaol? How would "invited support" be
treated in this context?

It would appear that you'd first have to admit to being a member or at least a supporter of the said terrorist organisation

quote:

Deproscription

The Home Secretary will consider deproscription on application only.
Section 4 of the Terrorism Act 2000* provides that the organisation
or any person affected by a proscription can submit a signed, written application to the Home Secretary requesting that they consider whether
a specified organisation should be removed from the list of proscribed organisations.

unquote:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/proscribed-terror-groups-or-organisations--2/proscribed-terrorist-groups-or-organisations-accessible-version

So that basically you fill in the application form and sign it admitting you're a member or supporter of a proscribed organisation. Otherwise how would you be affected by its proscription ? ** And so are immediately arrested and the signed form used as damning evidence at your
subsequent trial

Your application form will either get lost or go to the bottom of the "Deproscription Application Form pile in the Home Office, (Despite 4A) below). Hopefully to be finally decided on before you've served the whole
of your sentence.

Please note there is no reference to any immunity from prosecution

"That's some catch" as Yossarian said.

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On Saturday, 21 October 2023 at 01:11:07 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:

On 20/10/2023 23:41, Jon Ribbens wrote:

On 2023-10-20, Michael Chare <mUNDERS...@chareDOTorg.uk> wrote:

Is it legal to public support Hamas in the Uk or would it be breaking
the law because the Government have said that Hamas is a terrorist
organisation?

It is an offence punishable by up to 14 years in prison under s12
of the Terrorism Act 2000:

(1) A person commits an offence if-
(a) he invites support for a proscribed organisation, and
(b) the support is not, or is not restricted to, the provision of
money or other property

Hamas is a proscribed organisation under that Act:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/proscribed-terror-groups-or-organisations--2/proscribed-terrorist-groups-or-organisations-accessible-version

(Sending money or property to terrorists isn't an offence under that section because it's an offence under a different section of the same
Act.)

So if I propose a petition to to remove Hamas from being a proscribed organisation could find myself in gaol? How would "invited support" be treated in this context?

I suppose they are slightly more popular than SS TKV, and there may be a few who think massacring babies is OK - it is of course a crime in peace or war time.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 27 Oct 2023 at 11:34:26 BST, "notyalckram@gmail.com"
<notyalckram@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, 21 October 2023 at 01:11:07 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:

On 20/10/2023 23:41, Jon Ribbens wrote:

On 2023-10-20, Michael Chare <mUNDERS...@chareDOTorg.uk> wrote:

Is it legal to public support Hamas in the Uk or would it be breaking
the law because the Government have said that Hamas is a terrorist
organisation?

It is an offence punishable by up to 14 years in prison under s12
of the Terrorism Act 2000:

(1) A person commits an offence if-
(a) he invites support for a proscribed organisation, and
(b) the support is not, or is not restricted to, the provision of
money or other property

Hamas is a proscribed organisation under that Act:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/proscribed-terror-groups-or-organisations--2/proscribed-terrorist-groups-or-organisations-accessible-version

(Sending money or property to terrorists isn't an offence under that
section because it's an offence under a different section of the same
Act.)

So if I propose a petition to to remove Hamas from being a proscribed
organisation could find myself in gaol? How would "invited support" be
treated in this context?

I suppose they are slightly more popular than SS TKV, and there may be a few who think massacring babies is OK - it is of course a crime in peace or war time.

It is not a crime to murder babies if you do it from a sufficiently long way away with a sufficiently high tech. weapon.

--
Roger Hayter

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On 27/10/2023 11:44, Roger Hayter wrote:

I suppose they are slightly more popular than SS TKV, and there may be a few >> who think massacring babies is OK - it is of course a crime in peace or war >> time.

It is not a crime to murder babies if you do it from a sufficiently long way away with a sufficiently high tech. weapon.

Indeed

<https://mondoweiss.net/2023/10/israel-kills-al-jazeera-correspondents-family-days-after-blinken-demands-the-channels-coverage-be-toned-down/>

I'd not noticed Mondoweiss until recently, but it seems to have a few interesting articles.

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