• Strength of Without Prejudice

    From Jeff Gaines@21:1/5 to All on Thu Apr 27 19:01:51 2023
    I am wending my way through a legal case driven by my landlord which is in
    the county court.

    The Particulars of Claim were served, I filed a defence and have now
    received a reply to that. It contains some astonishing statements that are amazingly easy to refute - like "the defendant has sent no correspondence
    on xxx subject". So far I have found a dozen emails (all acknowledged by
    their email system) and 8 texts - and I still have 2 years' correspondence
    to check.

    I feel inclined to send a "without prejudice" letter to their solicitor
    asking if they want to withdraw the reply, it just feels like the "right"
    thing to do (I know the person who signed the statement with a "Statement
    of Truth" and I don't know if she is in blissful ignorance or if she is
    being bullied).

    If I do send such a letter is the solicitor obliged not to mention it in proceedings or it that no longer honoured?

    Do I just reply (presumably with copies of the correspondence), do we then
    go through it at trial?

    Be interested in people's thoughts.

    --
    Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
    I take full responsibility for what happened - that is why the person that
    was responsible went immediately.
    (Gordon Brown, April 2009)

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  • From Fredxx@21:1/5 to Jeff Gaines on Thu Apr 27 22:34:42 2023
    On 27/04/2023 20:01, Jeff Gaines wrote:

    I am wending my way through a legal case driven by my landlord which is
    in the county court.

    The Particulars of Claim were served, I filed a defence and have now
    received a reply to that. It contains some astonishing statements that
    are amazingly easy to refute - like "the defendant has sent no
    correspondence on xxx subject". So far I have found a dozen emails (all acknowledged by their email system) and 8 texts - and I still have 2
    years' correspondence to check.

    I feel inclined to send a "without prejudice" letter to their solicitor asking if they want to withdraw the reply, it just feels like the
    "right" thing to do (I know the person who signed the statement with a "Statement of Truth" and I don't know if she is in blissful ignorance or
    if she is being bullied).

    If I do send such a letter is the solicitor obliged not to mention it in proceedings or it that no longer honoured?

    Do I just reply (presumably with copies of the correspondence), do we
    then go through it at trial?

    Be interested in people's thoughts.

    I suppose I would create a witness statement with annexes of the
    correspondence and use that to counter the claims being made.

    I might call it a draft witness statement to assist with the process of
    full disclosure, and say it will be replaced with a more complete formal Witness Statement shortly before trial.

    Is your Landlord rich? This must be costing him a small penny, and if
    it's allocated to the Small Claims Track he's not going to get much
    costs back, if anything, even if he wins.

    It might be worth looking up a template for a witness statement.

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  • From The Todal@21:1/5 to Jeff Gaines on Thu Apr 27 22:32:47 2023
    On 27/04/2023 20:01, Jeff Gaines wrote:

    I am wending my way through a legal case driven by my landlord which is
    in the county court.

    The Particulars of Claim were served, I filed a defence and have now
    received a reply to that. It contains some astonishing statements that
    are amazingly easy to refute - like "the defendant has sent no
    correspondence on xxx subject". So far I have found a dozen emails (all acknowledged by their email system) and 8 texts - and I still have 2
    years' correspondence to check.

    I feel inclined to send a "without prejudice" letter to their solicitor asking if they want to withdraw the reply, it just feels like the
    "right" thing to do (I know the person who signed the statement with a "Statement of Truth" and I don't know if she is in blissful ignorance or
    if she is being bullied).

    If I do send such a letter is the solicitor obliged not to mention it in proceedings or it that no longer honoured?

    Do I just reply (presumably with copies of the correspondence), do we
    then go through it at trial?

    Be interested in people's thoughts.


    A letter does not become "without prejudice" merely by marking it as
    such. Some letters marked "without prejudice" are subsequently deemed to
    be open letters.

    I think if I wanted to point out that the pleading contains incorrect information I would do it in an open letter that I wouldn't mind showing
    to the court in due course. I would point out that the statement of
    truth has been signed despite the inaccuracies in the pleading.

    But I think I would enclose the various pieces of correspondence to
    prove your point.

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  • From Jeff Gaines@21:1/5 to Fredxx on Fri Apr 28 09:31:25 2023
    On 27/04/2023 in message <u2epph$2398c$1@dont-email.me> Fredxx wrote:

    Is your Landlord rich? This must be costing him a small penny, and if it's >allocated to the Small Claims Track he's not going to get much costs back,
    if anything, even if he wins.

    It's a company with about 80 retirement developments with long leases. The leases requires leaseholders to pay all the costs of managing, which the landlord feels includes the costs of suing leaseholders, so we pay win.
    lose or draw.

    --
    Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
    The facts, although interesting, are irrelevant

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  • From Jeff Gaines@21:1/5 to The Todal on Fri Apr 28 09:28:28 2023
    On 27/04/2023 in message <kb0800Fo54tU1@mid.individual.net> The Todal wrote:

    I think if I wanted to point out that the pleading contains incorrect >information I would do it in an open letter that I wouldn't mind showing
    to the court in due course. I would point out that the statement of truth
    has been signed despite the inaccuracies in the pleading.

    But I think I would enclose the various pieces of correspondence to prove >your point.

    Many thanks :-)

    That sounds a good way to handle it, and gives them an opportunity to deal
    with it if they want to.

    --
    Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
    Indecision is the key to flexibility

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  • From GB@21:1/5 to Jeff Gaines on Fri Apr 28 11:34:51 2023
    On 28/04/2023 10:31, Jeff Gaines wrote:
    On 27/04/2023 in message <u2epph$2398c$1@dont-email.me> Fredxx wrote:

    Is your Landlord rich? This must be costing him a small penny, and if
    it's allocated to the Small Claims Track he's not going to get much
    costs back, if anything, even if he wins.

    It's a company with about 80 retirement developments with long leases.
    The leases requires leaseholders to pay all the costs of managing, which
    the landlord feels includes the costs of suing leaseholders, so we pay
    win. lose or draw.



    I think that is normal practice.

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  • From Fredxx@21:1/5 to Jeff Gaines on Fri Apr 28 12:48:59 2023
    On 28/04/2023 10:31, Jeff Gaines wrote:
    On 27/04/2023 in message <u2epph$2398c$1@dont-email.me> Fredxx wrote:

    Is your Landlord rich? This must be costing him a small penny, and if
    it's allocated to the Small Claims Track he's not going to get much
    costs back, if anything, even if he wins.

    It's a company with about 80 retirement developments with long leases.
    The leases requires leaseholders to pay all the costs of managing, which
    the landlord feels includes the costs of suing leaseholders, so we pay
    win. lose or draw.

    Is there not a caveat that the managing company is acting competently
    and in the interest of the leaseholders?

    Is there no liability at all? Is the managing company insured?

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  • From Jeff Gaines@21:1/5 to Fredxx on Fri Apr 28 14:16:34 2023
    On 28/04/2023 in message <u2gbra$2dvus$2@dont-email.me> Fredxx wrote:

    It's a company with about 80 retirement developments with long leases.
    The leases requires leaseholders to pay all the costs of managing, which >>the landlord feels includes the costs of suing leaseholders, so we pay
    win. lose or draw.

    Is there not a caveat that the managing company is acting competently and
    in the interest of the leaseholders?

    That would be a dream situation :-)

    The current situation arose because there were conflicting statements
    about who owned the freehold so I wrote with an enquiry under Section 1 of
    the Landlord & Tenant Act 1985, please, who is my landlord? The MD took
    umbrage (leaseholders are supposed to be seen and not heard) and refused
    to reply so I stopped paying service fees.


    Is there no liability at all? Is the managing company insured?

    The last case involved a small group of leaseholders who queried the reasonableness of service fees. When they issued proceedings the landlord raised a levy of £50,000 on the estate (divided between 24 units). Those
    of us who pay by cheque just ignored it, those paying by DD had it taken
    from their bank accounts.

    In the end the case was dropped. The Tribunal did say in its interim
    judgement that the amount levied was unreasonable and intended to
    intimidate leaseholders but if the case had proceeded the actual costs
    would have been payable. A person with no arms could count the number of monkeys given by the landlord on his/her fingers.

    We have a government with a majority around 80 which keeps talking bout
    the inequality of leasehold but does sweet Fanny Adams about it.

    --
    Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
    Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his friends for his
    life.
    (Jeremy Thorpe, 1962)

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  • From Roger Hayter@21:1/5 to Jeff Gaines on Fri Apr 28 18:56:35 2023
    On 28 Apr 2023 at 15:16:34 BST, ""Jeff Gaines"" <jgnewsid@outlook.com> wrote:

    On 28/04/2023 in message <u2gbra$2dvus$2@dont-email.me> Fredxx wrote:

    It's a company with about 80 retirement developments with long leases.
    The leases requires leaseholders to pay all the costs of managing, which >>> the landlord feels includes the costs of suing leaseholders, so we pay
    win. lose or draw.

    Is there not a caveat that the managing company is acting competently and
    in the interest of the leaseholders?

    That would be a dream situation :-)

    The current situation arose because there were conflicting statements
    about who owned the freehold so I wrote with an enquiry under Section 1 of the Landlord & Tenant Act 1985, please, who is my landlord? The MD took umbrage (leaseholders are supposed to be seen and not heard) and refused
    to reply so I stopped paying service fees.


    Is there no liability at all? Is the managing company insured?

    The last case involved a small group of leaseholders who queried the reasonableness of service fees. When they issued proceedings the landlord raised a levy of £50,000 on the estate (divided between 24 units). Those
    of us who pay by cheque just ignored it, those paying by DD had it taken
    from their bank accounts.

    In the end the case was dropped. The Tribunal did say in its interim judgement that the amount levied was unreasonable and intended to
    intimidate leaseholders but if the case had proceeded the actual costs
    would have been payable. A person with no arms could count the number of monkeys given by the landlord on his/her fingers.

    We have a government with a majority around 80 which keeps talking bout
    the inequality of leasehold but does sweet Fanny Adams about it.

    You do realise that some of the richest (often aristocratic) families in the
    UK derive much of their wealth from leaseholds? Neither of our established governing parties are going to do anything about that.

    --
    Roger Hayter

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