It rather depends on what you mean by the word ‘vulnerable’. As mentioned,
the bombers carried no end of electronic devices to protect themselves, and even that was one component of many, such as the bomber stream itself (to overwhelm the defences), ‘dog leg’ routes to the target (to confuse the enemy), spoof raids on other potential targets by handfuls Mosquito
aircraft ‘windowing’ (dispensing what we now call chaff) to simulate bomber
streams, and the whole subject of what colour to paint the bombers was a highly technical one (black being quite bad, surprisingly).
However, vital targets such as the Big City (Berlin) had defences that were 60 miles in diameter, had huge numbers of searchlights and flak, and this
is where the bombers had to fly straight and level for several minutes to settle the bombsight while steering for the specific target - this is where they were at their most vulnerable, prone to flak and fighters while
visible in the searchlights and the light from the burning city.
If you have any interest in this sort of thing, I commend to you the film Appointment in London, reckoned to be a pretty good representation of life
in Bomber Command at this sort of time.
Appointment In London [1953]
https://amzn.eu/d/idPHAst
(Only one copy left!)
My sister-in-law’s eldest brother was a Lancaster rear gunner, killed over Berlin in the very last weeks of the war.
On 19/04/2023 11:23, Spike wrote:
It rather depends on what you mean by the word ‘vulnerable’. As mentioned,
the bombers carried no end of electronic devices to protect themselves, and >> even that was one component of many, such as the bomber stream itself (to
overwhelm the defences), ‘dog leg’ routes to the target (to confuse the >> enemy), spoof raids on other potential targets by handfuls Mosquito
aircraft ‘windowing’ (dispensing what we now call chaff) to simulate bomber
streams, and the whole subject of what colour to paint the bombers was a
highly technical one (black being quite bad, surprisingly).
However, vital targets such as the Big City (Berlin) had defences that were >> 60 miles in diameter, had huge numbers of searchlights and flak, and this
is where the bombers had to fly straight and level for several minutes to
settle the bombsight while steering for the specific target - this is where >> they were at their most vulnerable, prone to flak and fighters while
visible in the searchlights and the light from the burning city.
If you have any interest in this sort of thing, I commend to you the film
Appointment in London, reckoned to be a pretty good representation of life >> in Bomber Command at this sort of time.
Appointment In London [1953]
https://amzn.eu/d/idPHAst
(Only one copy left!)
My sister-in-law’s eldest brother was a Lancaster rear gunner, killed over >> Berlin in the very last weeks of the war.
I was in a church in Suffolk the other day which had a single stained
glass window (the rest plain)
One side was in memory of the father, who had been killed off Uruguay in
WW2.
The other side was his three sons, all RAFVR.
We will remember them.
Andy
Vir Campestris <vir.cam...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 19/04/2023 11:23, Spike wrote:
It rather depends on what you mean by the word ‘vulnerable’. As mentioned,
the bombers carried no end of electronic devices to protect themselves, and
even that was one component of many, such as the bomber stream itself (to >> overwhelm the defences), ‘dog leg’ routes to the target (to confuse the
enemy), spoof raids on other potential targets by handfuls Mosquito
aircraft ‘windowing’ (dispensing what we now call chaff) to simulate bomber
streams, and the whole subject of what colour to paint the bombers was a >> highly technical one (black being quite bad, surprisingly).
However, vital targets such as the Big City (Berlin) had defences that were
60 miles in diameter, had huge numbers of searchlights and flak, and this >> is where the bombers had to fly straight and level for several minutes to >> settle the bombsight while steering for the specific target - this is where
they were at their most vulnerable, prone to flak and fighters while
visible in the searchlights and the light from the burning city.
If you have any interest in this sort of thing, I commend to you the film >> Appointment in London, reckoned to be a pretty good representation of life >> in Bomber Command at this sort of time.
Appointment In London [1953]
https://amzn.eu/d/idPHAst
(Only one copy left!)
My sister-in-law’s eldest brother was a Lancaster rear gunner, killed over
Berlin in the very last weeks of the war.
I was in a church in Suffolk the other day which had a single stained
glass window (the rest plain)
One side was in memory of the father, who had been killed off Uruguay in WW2.
The other side was his three sons, all RAFVR.
We will remember them.
AndyWe moved house when I was 11, and I remember my mum describing (after a ‘getting to know you’ chat) our neighbour across the street. In a reverential tone that I had never heard her use before or since she said “…and he was at /Arnhem/!”.
That meant nothing to me at the time, but during the lockdowns I tried to track him down, which proved difficult at first as the personal name he was known by wasn’t his real name - it was only when we turned up a voters list we discovered his real name, and his wife’s first name (she had always been Mrs Surname to me).
It didn’t take long to find out that he was A Coy, 2nd Para Bn, the very one of John Frost and Bridge Too Far fame. With only 750 men at the bridge, that made a pretty exclusive club. What a story he had to tell, had I only asked. He passed away in his late 80s, his wife having predeceased him, and they had no children.
On Monday, 24 April 2023 at 23:02:08 UTC+1, Spike wrote:
Vir Campestris <vir.cam...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 19/04/2023 11:23, Spike wrote:We moved house when I was 11, and I remember my mum describing (after a
It rather depends on what you mean by the word ‘vulnerable’. As mentioned,
the bombers carried no end of electronic devices to protect themselves, and
even that was one component of many, such as the bomber stream itself (to >>>> overwhelm the defences), ‘dog leg’ routes to the target (to confuse the
enemy), spoof raids on other potential targets by handfuls Mosquito
aircraft ‘windowing’ (dispensing what we now call chaff) to simulate bomber
streams, and the whole subject of what colour to paint the bombers was a >>>> highly technical one (black being quite bad, surprisingly).
However, vital targets such as the Big City (Berlin) had defences that were
60 miles in diameter, had huge numbers of searchlights and flak, and this >>>> is where the bombers had to fly straight and level for several minutes to >>>> settle the bombsight while steering for the specific target - this is where
they were at their most vulnerable, prone to flak and fighters while
visible in the searchlights and the light from the burning city.
If you have any interest in this sort of thing, I commend to you the film >>>> Appointment in London, reckoned to be a pretty good representation of life >>>> in Bomber Command at this sort of time.
Appointment In London [1953]
https://amzn.eu/d/idPHAst
(Only one copy left!)
My sister-in-law’s eldest brother was a Lancaster rear gunner, killed over
Berlin in the very last weeks of the war.
I was in a church in Suffolk the other day which had a single stained
glass window (the rest plain)
One side was in memory of the father, who had been killed off Uruguay in >>> WW2.
The other side was his three sons, all RAFVR.
We will remember them.
Andy
‘getting to know you’ chat) our neighbour across the street. In a
reverential tone that I had never heard her use before or since she said
“…and he was at /Arnhem/!”.
That meant nothing to me at the time, but during the lockdowns I tried to
track him down, which proved difficult at first as the personal name he was >> known by wasn’t his real name - it was only when we turned up a voters list
we discovered his real name, and his wife’s first name (she had always been
Mrs Surname to me).
It didn’t take long to find out that he was A Coy, 2nd Para Bn, the very >> one of John Frost and Bridge Too Far fame. With only 750 men at the bridge, >> that made a pretty exclusive club. What a story he had to tell, had I only >> asked. He passed away in his late 80s, his wife having predeceased him, and >> they had no children.
Teacher at my school was an Arnhem veteran, but I didn't know it at the
time, only found out years later: https://www.paradata.org.uk/people/j-leo-hall
When you think how little it takes to make people a celeb nowadays -
there were thousands of that generation who had incredible stories, but
just went back to normal life and never talked about it.
My Art master at school was a Bomb Disposal Officer, I didn’t find out >until I’d left.
Brian W <brianwhitehead@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, 24 April 2023 at 23:02:08 UTC+1, Spike wrote:
Vir Campestris <vir.cam...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 19/04/2023 11:23, Spike wrote:We moved house when I was 11, and I remember my mum describing (after a
It rather depends on what you mean by the word ‘vulnerable’. As mentioned,
the bombers carried no end of electronic devices to protect themselves, and
even that was one component of many, such as the bomber stream itself (to >>>>> overwhelm the defences), ‘dog leg’ routes to the target (to confuse the
enemy), spoof raids on other potential targets by handfuls Mosquito
aircraft ‘windowing’ (dispensing what we now call chaff) to simulate bomber
streams, and the whole subject of what colour to paint the bombers was a >>>>> highly technical one (black being quite bad, surprisingly).
However, vital targets such as the Big City (Berlin) had defences that were
60 miles in diameter, had huge numbers of searchlights and flak, and this >>>>> is where the bombers had to fly straight and level for several minutes to >>>>> settle the bombsight while steering for the specific target - this is where
they were at their most vulnerable, prone to flak and fighters while >>>>> visible in the searchlights and the light from the burning city.
If you have any interest in this sort of thing, I commend to you the film >>>>> Appointment in London, reckoned to be a pretty good representation of life
in Bomber Command at this sort of time.
Appointment In London [1953]
https://amzn.eu/d/idPHAst
(Only one copy left!)
My sister-in-law’s eldest brother was a Lancaster rear gunner, killed over
Berlin in the very last weeks of the war.
I was in a church in Suffolk the other day which had a single stained
glass window (the rest plain)
One side was in memory of the father, who had been killed off Uruguay in >>>> WW2.
The other side was his three sons, all RAFVR.
We will remember them.
Andy
‘getting to know you’ chat) our neighbour across the street. In a
reverential tone that I had never heard her use before or since she said >>> “…and he was at /Arnhem/!”.
That meant nothing to me at the time, but during the lockdowns I tried to >>> track him down, which proved difficult at first as the personal name he was >>> known by wasn’t his real name - it was only when we turned up a voters list
we discovered his real name, and his wife’s first name (she had always been
Mrs Surname to me).
It didn’t take long to find out that he was A Coy, 2nd Para Bn, the very >>> one of John Frost and Bridge Too Far fame. With only 750 men at the bridge, >>> that made a pretty exclusive club. What a story he had to tell, had I only >>> asked. He passed away in his late 80s, his wife having predeceased him, and >>> they had no children.
Teacher at my school was an Arnhem veteran, but I didn't know it at the
time, only found out years later: https://www.paradata.org.uk/people/j-leo-hall
Fascinating story, thanks for sharing.
When you think how little it takes to make people a celeb nowadays -
there were thousands of that generation who had incredible stories, but
just went back to normal life and never talked about it.
My Art master at school was a Bomb Disposal Officer, I didn’t find out until I’d left. Apparently the German bombers occasionally carried a bomb with a special fuse that looked very much like a normal one, but which was linked to another, hidden, fuse that would detonate the device when the
first one was removed. It was intended to kill the BDO and his team. Unfortunately the first one they dropped had a faulty hidden detonator, and it gave the game away.
On 25/04/2023 15:51, Spike wrote:
My Art master at school was a Bomb Disposal Officer, I didn’t find out
until I’d left. Apparently the German bombers occasionally carried a bomb >> with a special fuse that looked very much like a normal one, but which was >> linked to another, hidden, fuse that would detonate the device when the
first one was removed. It was intended to kill the BDO and his team.
Unfortunately the first one they dropped had a faulty hidden detonator, and >> it gave the game away.
One of the best drama serials ever made for TV is "Danger UXB" (starring Anthony Andrews). Has a lot of interesting technical details about the
bomb fuses and booby traps, and the fuses that were impossible to disarm
so the team had to drill a hole in the bomb and steam out the explosive instead.
The Todal <the_todal@icloud.com> wrote:
On 25/04/2023 15:51, Spike wrote:
My Art master at school was a Bomb Disposal Officer, I didn’t find out >>> until I’d left. Apparently the German bombers occasionally carried a bomb >>> with a special fuse that looked very much like a normal one, but which was >>> linked to another, hidden, fuse that would detonate the device when the
first one was removed. It was intended to kill the BDO and his team.
Unfortunately the first one they dropped had a faulty hidden detonator, and >>> it gave the game away.
One of the best drama serials ever made for TV is "Danger UXB" (starring
Anthony Andrews). Has a lot of interesting technical details about the
bomb fuses and booby traps, and the fuses that were impossible to disarm
so the team had to drill a hole in the bomb and steam out the explosive
instead.
Due to pressures of life, the universe, and everything, I didn’t get to see the series although I knew “Danger UXB” was being broadcast. I’ve now
ordered the box set, and look forward to enjoying it. Thanks!
The Todal <the_todal@icloud.com> wrote:
On 25/04/2023 15:51, Spike wrote:
My Art master at school was a Bomb Disposal Officer, I didn’t find out >>> until I’d left. Apparently the German bombers occasionally carried a bomb >>> with a special fuse that looked very much like a normal one, but which was >>> linked to another, hidden, fuse that would detonate the device when the
first one was removed. It was intended to kill the BDO and his team.
Unfortunately the first one they dropped had a faulty hidden detonator, and >>> it gave the game away.
One of the best drama serials ever made for TV is "Danger UXB" (starring
Anthony Andrews). Has a lot of interesting technical details about the
bomb fuses and booby traps, and the fuses that were impossible to disarm
so the team had to drill a hole in the bomb and steam out the explosive
instead.
Due to pressures of life, the universe, and everything, I didn’t get to see the series although I knew “Danger UXB” was being broadcast. I’ve now
ordered the box set, and look forward to enjoying it. Thanks!
Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:
Jon Ribbens wrote:
Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
The Todal wrote:
I really don't think there is a hatred of "anyone with white
skin".
Hatred is shown by some. If I say "All lives matter" I am called
a racist
How weird - you say a racist slogan and you get called a racist.
A completely unexpected and inexplicable turn of events.
where by implication only black lives matter.
That's entirely false.
What about, "White lives matter"?
What "Black Lives Matter" really means is, black lives [should] matter
too. White lives already matter, so it doesn't need to be said. When
it is said the purpose clearly is to denigrate "black lives matter."
As they say, “When you are used to privilege, equality feels like oppression.”
On 15/04/2023 17:27, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:has said anything about this lady's life not mattering.
Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:
Jon Ribbens wrote:
Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
The Todal wrote:
I really don't think there is a hatred of "anyone with white
skin".
Hatred is shown by some. If I say "All lives matter" I am called
a racist
How weird - you say a racist slogan and you get called a racist.
A completely unexpected and inexplicable turn of events.
where by implication only black lives matter.
That's entirely false.
What about, "White lives matter"?
What "Black Lives Matter" really means is, black lives [should] matter
too. White lives already matter, so it doesn't need to be said. When
it is said the purpose clearly is to denigrate "black lives matter."
As they say, “When you are used to privilege, equality feels like
oppression.”
Then why wasn't this a racial attack?
https://eu.indystar.com/story/news/crime/2020/07/23/jessica-doty-whitaker-what-we-know-shooting-along-canal/5486333002/
Or don't all lives matter as much as black lives?
From the report, it might welll have been. OTOH Americans are always randomly shooting each other and they don't know who did this shooting. Has anyone said that it wasn't a racial attack? Does it prove anything important, except that some anti-BLM group has taken up the case. Not that anyone at all, AFAICS.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/11/essex-pub-landlady-benice-ryley-replaces-golliwog-doll-collection-that-was-seized-by-police
When it goes to court, I expect they'll wheel David Olusoga in to say
how evil they are. Landlady will be gaoled.
On 03/05/2023 23:09, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 3 May 2023 at 19:58:40 BST, "Fredxx" <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
On 15/04/2023 17:27, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:shooting each other and they don't know who did this shooting. Has anyone said
Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:
Jon Ribbens wrote:
Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
The Todal wrote:
I really don't think there is a hatred of "anyone with white
skin".
Hatred is shown by some. If I say "All lives matter" I am called >>>>>>> a racist
How weird - you say a racist slogan and you get called a racist.
A completely unexpected and inexplicable turn of events.
where by implication only black lives matter.
That's entirely false.
What about, "White lives matter"?
What "Black Lives Matter" really means is, black lives [should] matter >>>> too. White lives already matter, so it doesn't need to be said. When >>>> it is said the purpose clearly is to denigrate "black lives matter."
As they say, “When you are used to privilege, equality feels like
oppression.”
Then why wasn't this a racial attack?
https://eu.indystar.com/story/news/crime/2020/07/23/jessica-doty-whitaker-what-we-know-shooting-along-canal/5486333002/
Or don't all lives matter as much as black lives?
From the report, it might welll have been. OTOH Americans are always randomly
that it wasn't a racial attack? Does it prove anything important, except that
some anti-BLM group has taken up the case. Not that anyone at all, AFAICS. >> has said anything about this lady's life not mattering.
It was not classed as a racist attack. It was a reason given why the BBC minimised coverage on the death.
On 3 May 2023 at 19:58:40 BST, "Fredxx" <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
On 15/04/2023 17:27, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:
Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:
Jon Ribbens wrote:
Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
The Todal wrote:
I really don't think there is a hatred of "anyone with white
skin".
Hatred is shown by some. If I say "All lives matter" I am called
a racist
How weird - you say a racist slogan and you get called a racist.
A completely unexpected and inexplicable turn of events.
where by implication only black lives matter.
That's entirely false.
What about, "White lives matter"?
What "Black Lives Matter" really means is, black lives [should] matter
too. White lives already matter, so it doesn't need to be said. When
it is said the purpose clearly is to denigrate "black lives matter."
As they say, “When you are used to privilege, equality feels like
oppression.”
Then why wasn't this a racial attack?
https://eu.indystar.com/story/news/crime/2020/07/23/jessica-doty-whitaker-what-we-know-shooting-along-canal/5486333002/
Or don't all lives matter as much as black lives?
From the report, it might welll have been. OTOH Americans are always randomlyshooting each other and they don't know who did this shooting. Has anyone said
that it wasn't a racial attack? Does it prove anything important, except that some anti-BLM group has taken up the case. Not that anyone at all, AFAICS. has said anything about this lady's life not mattering.
On 12/04/2023 11:10, Max Demian wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/11/essex-pub-landlady-benice-ryley-replaces-golliwog-doll-collection-that-was-seized-by-policeReports are emerging that the Essex pub is closing due to 'pressure'
When it goes to court, I expect they'll wheel David Olusoga in to say
how evil they are. Landlady will be gaoled.
from beer suppliers. i.e they are allegedly being forced out of business.
Perhaps time for a micro brewery on site?
Time for someone with a higher IQ to take over the pub?
On 12/04/2023 11:10, Max Demian wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/11/essex-pub-landlady-benice-ryley-replaces-golliwog-doll-collection-that-was-seized-by-policeReports are emerging that the Essex pub is closing due to 'pressure'
When it goes to court, I expect they'll wheel David Olusoga in to say
how evil they are. Landlady will be gaoled.
from beer suppliers. i.e they are allegedly being forced out of business.
Perhaps time for a micro brewery on site?
Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:
Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:
Jon Ribbens wrote:
Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
The Todal wrote:
I really don't think there is a hatred of "anyone with white
skin".
Hatred is shown by some. If I say "All lives matter" I am
called a racist
How weird - you say a racist slogan and you get called a
racist. A completely unexpected and inexplicable turn of
events.
where by implication only black lives matter.
That's entirely false.
What about, "White lives matter"?
What "Black Lives Matter" really means is, black lives [should]
matter too. White lives already matter, so it doesn't need to be
said. When it is said the purpose clearly is to denigrate "black
lives matter."
As they say, “When you are used to privilege, equality feels
like oppression.”
Then why wasn't this a racial attack?
https://eu.indystar.com/story/news/crime/2020/07/23/jessica-doty-wh itaker-what-we-know-shooting-along-canal/5486333002/
Or don't all lives matter as much as black lives?
On 4 May 2023 at 12:08:39 BST, "Fredxx" <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
On 03/05/2023 23:09, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 3 May 2023 at 19:58:40 BST, "Fredxx" <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
On 15/04/2023 17:27, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:shooting each other and they don't know who did this shooting. Has anyone said
Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:
Jon Ribbens wrote:
Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
The Todal wrote:
I really don't think there is a hatred of "anyone with white >>>>>>>>> skin".
Hatred is shown by some. If I say "All lives matter" I am called >>>>>>>> a racist
How weird - you say a racist slogan and you get called a racist. >>>>>>> A completely unexpected and inexplicable turn of events.
where by implication only black lives matter.
That's entirely false.
What about, "White lives matter"?
What "Black Lives Matter" really means is, black lives [should] matter >>>>> too. White lives already matter, so it doesn't need to be said. When >>>>> it is said the purpose clearly is to denigrate "black lives matter." >>>>>
As they say, “When you are used to privilege, equality feels like
oppression.”
Then why wasn't this a racial attack?
https://eu.indystar.com/story/news/crime/2020/07/23/jessica-doty-whitaker-what-we-know-shooting-along-canal/5486333002/
Or don't all lives matter as much as black lives?
From the report, it might welll have been. OTOH Americans are always randomly
that it wasn't a racial attack? Does it prove anything important, except that
some anti-BLM group has taken up the case. Not that anyone at all, AFAICS. >>> has said anything about this lady's life not mattering.
It was not classed as a racist attack. It was a reason given why the BBC
minimised coverage on the death.
By whom was it not classed as a racist attack? Was that partly because they had no idea who did it and why? If they found it was the black group that they
suspected who did it, then they might be able to classify it?
And why should
the BBC give *any* coverage to American domestic news anyway?
On Thursday, 4 May 2023 at 16:12:53 UTC+1, GB wrote:
Time for someone with a higher IQ to take over the pub?
By definition, if it's racist to equate black people with golliwogs,
it can only be because anti-racists think that black people resemble golliwogs.
Or don't all lives matter as much as black lives?
That statement is so offensive that it doesn't deserve a response.
By definition, if it's racist to equate black people with golliwogs, it can only be because anti-racists think that black people resemble golliwogs.
On 17/04/2023 17:35, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:
The Todal <the_todal@icloud.com> wrote:
JNugent wrote:
A year or two back, I was in an internet discussion on arrest
procedures which also involved some Americans. I have no way of
knowing what race(s) they were and don't try to second guess
that. When resisting arrest was raised as an issue, I voiced my
opinion, which was (and still is) that anyone being arrested
should "go quietly" and certainly not resist arrest by physical
means.
The reaction was unexpected (by me at any rate). The belief was
that if faced with being arrested on suspicion of a crime, they
had a *right* to resist arrest and try to escape, by violent
means.
Are you seriously suggesting that if someone runs away from a
police officer that should give the officer the right to shoot him
and possibly kill him?
For all I know, that might be the law, or the culture, in the USA.
It certainly isn't in Britain. Our officers will pursue suspects
on foot or by car and if necessary apply reasonable force when
arresting them. Unless they are suspected of using guns, the
suspects will not be shot at.
It's not the law in the USA either. Police (or anyone else) are not
allowed to shoot a gun at someone unless lives are in imminent
danger. Justifications for shootings often involve, "it looked like
he was reaching for a weapon."
The Grand Juries seem to give officers the benefit of the doubt - as
in the case of Jayland Walker. Perhaps the more officers fire their
weapons, the more plausible the story that they saw the victim as a
threat. An alternative theory would be that they are trigger happy
and follow their leader.
quote
A grand jury in Ohio has decided not to charge police officers in the
death of Jayland Walker, a 25-year-old Black man who was shot dozens
of times by the police after an attempted traffic stop and chase last
summer in Akron, Ohio, the state’s attorney general said on Monday.
Mr. Walker, a 25-year-old Black man, was shot dozens of times after
an attempted traffic stop and chase in Akron, Ohio, last year.
Mr. Walker died on June 27, 2022, after the Akron police tried to
stop his car. When Mr. Walker did not pull over, video released by
the police showed, officers chased him, first in vehicles and then on
foot. Officers said that they thought Mr. Walker had fired a weapon
from his car and that they feared he would fire again, prompting them
to shoot him.
Attorney General Dave Yost of Ohio said on Monday that Mr. Walker had
fired at least once at the police from his car. But Mr. Walker was
unarmed when the police fatally shot him while he was on foot. Eight
Akron police officers fired 94 shots at Mr. Walker, and he sustained
46 gunshot wounds, the attorney general’s office said.
Mr. Yost said that Mr. Walker had ignored commands to show his hands
and stop.
[A gun was subsequently found in his car. But we are expected to
believe that he positioned himself as if about to fire at officers
when he did not have a gun in his hand]
On 04/05/2023 16:35, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:
Or don't all lives matter as much as black lives?
That statement is so offensive that it doesn't deserve a response.
There's a cultural difference here.
There are so few people killed by police in the UK that it's not
ENTIRELY obvious whether black people are more likely to be killed.
For example, in 2020/21 there were 11 deaths in or following police
custody. The black population is only 3%, so the expected number of
black deaths is only 0.2 each year. So, what is the conclusion if say 1
black person is killed? Black people are five times as likely to be
killed? Or, it will take 10+ years to get statistically significantly significant figures? And, which of those will catch the headlines?
Suppose that one year, by some miracle, no black people get killed by
the police, it would be easy to suggest that blacks are being treated
too favourably.
The real point is that nobody should be allowed to comment on this
unless they are qualified in statistics. I am, btw. :)
On 04/05/2023 16:35, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:
Or don't all lives matter as much as black lives?
That statement is so offensive that it doesn't deserve a response.
There's a cultural difference here.
There are so few people killed by police in the UK that it's not
ENTIRELY obvious whether black people are more likely to be killed.
For example, in 2020/21 there were 11 deaths in or following police
custody. The black population is only 3%, so the expected number of
black deaths is only 0.2 each year. So, what is the conclusion if say 1
black person is killed? Black people are five times as likely to be
killed? Or, it will take 10+ years to get statistically significantly significant figures? And, which of those will catch the headlines?
Suppose that one year, by some miracle, no black people get killed by
the police, it would be easy to suggest that blacks are being treated
too favourably.
The real point is that nobody should be allowed to comment on this
unless they are qualified in statistics. I am, btw. :)
On Thursday, 4 May 2023 at 16:12:53 UTC+1, GB wrote:
Time for someone with a higher IQ to take over the pub?
By definition, if it's racist to equate black people with golliwogs, it can only be because anti-racists think that black people resemble golliwogs.
But they'll never say so which says a great deal about them.
Do *you* think a golliwog resembles a black person?
Think carefully before you answer; say yes and you're a racist, say no and your argument falls apart.
On 4 May 2023 at 17:54:17 BST, "GB" <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> wrote:
On 04/05/2023 16:35, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:Try using more data:
Or don't all lives matter as much as black lives?
That statement is so offensive that it doesn't deserve a response.
There's a cultural difference here.
There are so few people killed by police in the UK that it's not
ENTIRELY obvious whether black people are more likely to be killed.
For example, in 2020/21 there were 11 deaths in or following police
custody. The black population is only 3%, so the expected number of
black deaths is only 0.2 each year. So, what is the conclusion if say 1
black person is killed? Black people are five times as likely to be
killed? Or, it will take 10+ years to get statistically significantly
significant figures? And, which of those will catch the headlines?
Suppose that one year, by some miracle, no black people get killed by
the police, it would be easy to suggest that blacks are being treated
too favourably.
The IOPC’s 2019/2020 Report shows that 23% of total deaths in or following police custody between 2015 and 2020 (i.e. 20 of 86 deaths) were people of BME
background.
(Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC))
https://irr.org.uk/research/statistics/bme-deaths-in-custody-2014-2022/
The real point is that nobody should be allowed to comment on this
unless they are qualified in statistics. I am, btw. :)
Not perhaps as uncertain statistically as you suggest? Unless you are trained to select years that illustrate the statistical point you want to make.
On 4 May 2023 at 16:32:53 BST, "Tikli Chestikov" <tikli.chestikov@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, 4 May 2023 at 16:12:53 UTC+1, GB wrote:
Time for someone with a higher IQ to take over the pub?
By definition, if it's racist to equate black people with golliwogs, it can >> only be because anti-racists think that black people resemble golliwogs.
But they'll never say so which says a great deal about them.
Do *you* think a golliwog resembles a black person?
Think carefully before you answer; say yes and you're a racist, say no and >> your argument falls apart.
The doll is a parody of black "minstrels". Used to be called "N****r Minstrels" who did humorous or bathetic singing and clowned around to amuse the audience. Whether the parody is sufficiently recognisable as a parody nowadays should be your question.
On 04/05/2023 07:14 pm, Roger Hayter wrote:
snip
The doll is a parody of black "minstrels". Used to be called "N****r
Minstrels" who did humorous or bathetic singing and clowned around to amuse >> the audience. Whether the parody is sufficiently recognisable as a parody
nowadays should be your question.
Oh... citation, please!
On 4 May 2023 at 17:54:17 "GB" <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> wrote:
On 04/05/2023 16:35, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:Try using more data:
Or don't all lives matter as much as black lives?
That statement is so offensive that it doesn't deserve a response.
There's a cultural difference here.
There are so few people killed by police in the UK that it's not
ENTIRELY obvious whether black people are more likely to be killed.
For example, in 2020/21 there were 11 deaths in or following police
custody. The black population is only 3%, so the expected number of
black deaths is only 0.2 each year. So, what is the conclusion if
say 1 black person is killed? Black people are five times as likely
to be killed? Or, it will take 10+ years to get statistically
significantly significant figures? And, which of those will catch
the headlines?
Suppose that one year, by some miracle, no black people get killed
by the police, it would be easy to suggest that blacks are being
treated too favourably.
The IOPC's 2019/2020 Report shows that 23% of total deaths in or
following police custody between 2015 and 2020 (i.e. 20 of 86 deaths)
were people of BME background.
(Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC))
https://irr.org.uk/research/statistics/bme-deaths-in-custody-
2014-2022/
Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:
In the US, until Trump, racism was mostly hidden and
unacknowledged, though it was definitely there. With Trump came
the feeling that being proudly and explicitly racist became
acceptable in those circles.
You mean "unconscious racism" and its ilk? "We know what you're
thinking better than you do." That makes the question unanswerable
in the same way as, "Have you stopped beating your wife?"
If you mean to say that unconscious racism doesn't exist and/or can't
be detected and studied, you are just wrong.
But no, I wasn't talking about unconscious racism. I was talking about racism that is quite explicit, but might be justified by saying, "I'm
not racist - black people really aren't as smart and are more likely to commit crimes."
On 12/04/2023 11:10, Max Demian wrote:
Reports are emerging that the Essex pub is closing due to 'pressure'
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/11/essex-pub-landlady-beni
ce-ryley-replaces-golliwog-doll-collection-that-was-seized-by-police
When it goes to court, I expect they'll wheel David Olusoga in to
say how evil they are. Landlady will be gaoled.
from beer suppliers. i.e they are allegedly being forced out of
business.
Perhaps time for a micro brewery on site?
On 19:03 4 May 2023, Roger Hayter said:
On 12/04/2023 11:10, Max Demian wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/11/essex-pub-landlady-beniReports are emerging that the Essex pub is closing due to 'pressure'
ce-ryley-replaces-golliwog-doll-collection-that-was-seized-by-police
When it goes to court, I expect they'll wheel David Olusoga in to
say how evil they are. Landlady will be gaoled.
from beer suppliers. i.e they are allegedly being forced out of
business.
Perhaps time for a micro brewery on site?
Ob-ULM....
Has the breweries' refusal to supply beer breached their supply
contracts with the landlord? I believe these contracts normally run for
a year.
On 4 May 2023 at 19:32:56 BST, "JNugent" <jenningsandco@mail.com> wrote:
On 04/05/2023 07:14 pm, Roger Hayter wrote:
snip
The doll is a parody of black "minstrels". Used to be called "N****r
Minstrels" who did humorous or bathetic singing and clowned around to amuse >>> the audience. Whether the parody is sufficiently recognisable as a parody >>> nowadays should be your question.
Oh... citation, please!
https://www.ferris.edu/HTMLS/news/jimcrow/golliwog/homepage.htm
Read carefully and you will see that the minstrel parody dolls existed in America before the golliwog author wrote her book. Indeed she had one as a child.
On 04/05/2023 11:47 pm, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 4 May 2023 at 19:32:56 BST, "JNugent" <jenningsandco@mail.com> wrote:
On 04/05/2023 07:14 pm, Roger Hayter wrote:
snip
The doll is a parody of black "minstrels". Used to be called "N****r >>>> Minstrels" who did humorous or bathetic singing and clowned around to amuse
the audience. Whether the parody is sufficiently recognisable as a parody >>>> nowadays should be your question.
Oh... citation, please!
https://www.ferris.edu/HTMLS/news/jimcrow/golliwog/homepage.htm
Read carefully and you will see that the minstrel parody dolls existed in
America before the golliwog author wrote her book. Indeed she had one as a >> child.
QUOTE:
The Golliwogg was based on a Black minstrel doll that Upton had played
with as a small child in New York. The then-nameless "Negro minstrel doll" ENDQUOTE
Nothing about a parody. Nothing, in fact, about anything pejorative.
Any other cites?
On 17:28 17 Apr 2023, Stuart O. Bronstein said:
Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:
In the US, until Trump, racism was mostly hidden and
unacknowledged, though it was definitely there. With Trump came
the feeling that being proudly and explicitly racist became
acceptable in those circles.
You mean "unconscious racism" and its ilk? "We know what you're
thinking better than you do." That makes the question unanswerable
in the same way as, "Have you stopped beating your wife?"
If you mean to say that unconscious racism doesn't exist and/or can't
be detected and studied, you are just wrong.
But no, I wasn't talking about unconscious racism. I was talking about
racism that is quite explicit, but might be justified by saying, "I'm
not racist - black people really aren't as smart and are more likely to
commit crimes."
Your last two statements are racist only by using the recent
re-definition of "racism", which requires nothing more than an
observation about the difference between races.
Decades before race activists created this new definition, "racism"
meant racial discrimination in the form of an action which unfairly >disadvantaged blacks. By contrast today, thinking certain "unpure"
thoughts is sufficient to be racist ... or not actually thinking the
thoughts but being told you harbour them (you termed this "unconscious >racism").
On 2023-05-05, Pamela <uklm@permabulator.33mail.com> wrote:
On 19:03 4 May 2023, Roger Hayter said:
On 12/04/2023 11:10, Max Demian wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/11/essex-pub-landlady-beReports are emerging that the Essex pub is closing due to
ni
ce-ryley-replaces-golliwog-doll-collection-that-was-seized-by-polic
e
When it goes to court, I expect they'll wheel David Olusoga in to
say how evil they are. Landlady will be gaoled.
'pressure' from beer suppliers. i.e they are allegedly being forced
out of business.
Perhaps time for a micro brewery on site?
Ob-ULM....
Has the breweries' refusal to supply beer breached their supply
contracts with the landlord? I believe these contracts normally run
for a year.
Given the extent to which beverge brands try to promote themselves
in pubs and bars these days (e.g. branded glasses) I would be quite
surprised if they hadn't thought to include clauses giving them the opportunity to pull out if they feel their brand is being damaged.
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