On 22/04/2023 12:11 pm, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <ka7nolFt08pU1@mid.individual.net>, at 15:28:37 on Tue, 18
Apr 2023, JNugent <jenningsandco@mail.com> remarked:
There's nothing odd about taking a left hand lane to turn right. >>>>>>>It's taking an exit lane to stay on the same (important) motorway >>>>>>>route with the minor route carrying straight on which is unusual.
In the case of Great Barr, it's just artificial road numbering, >>>>>>and all flows are just as important. So you do indeed turn left
to continue your north-south trip from Manchester to Bristol.
Or if you prefer, not far away is the M42, where you have to take >>>>>>a lefthand sliproad to continue on the M42 off to the right (the >>>>>>M6 Toll being the through-road off to the left).
Yes. I think, where possible, in order to leave the number of the >>>>>road you're on, you bear off to the left (regardless of which >>>>>direction the road then takes). To continue on the road you're on, >>>>>you keep to the right. [See M1-M18 junction.]
Normally, yes but here are many exceptions, such as the M42 above >>>>(and Great Barr if "the road" is the strip of tarmac from
Manchester to Birmingham, despite the fact the bit of tarmac
labelled M6 on a map does a right-angle turn, and the onward bit
is labelled M5 on a map.
Eh?
I certainly don't remember that.
AFAICR (I nowadays usually try to avoid the Birmingham area when >>>travelling NW), the M6 originally ran as an uninterrupted strip of >>>tarmac/concrete from junction 19 of the M1 to a free-flow junction
with the A74 north of Carlisle. It was the through route at every interchange.
No, the M6 was always down the LHS of the country then a sharp turn >>across the north of Birmingham (via Spaghetti Junction) towards
Coventry. The bit down to the West Country being the M5.
The M6 was always the through route at its two separate junctions with
M5.
Nowadays, the M6 through route is via the toll road,
which I have still never used even once.
Offhand, I can't think of a crawler lane that exists because it
has been added to a motorway that already existed.
Motorways are often improved, and it seems to me unlikely that >>>>there's never been such an improvement which involved adding a
crawler lane.
I'm not aware of it in the UK, as stated.
Yes, some carriageways have been widened, but that's not the same
as adding a crawler lane.
Even if you widen it from two to three lanes, and with signage
call lane one a crawler?
A crawler lane is an additional lane (ie, one more than the opposite >>>carriageway has)
That's a new addition to the goalpost collection. I don't know why
you couldn't add one each side, but mark the uphill one as a crawler
lane.
There is no reason at all. But that would be known as "road-widening".
In message <kai67hFii3sU1@mid.individual.net>, at 14:36:49 on Sat, 22
Apr 2023, JNugent <jenningsandco@mail.com> remarked:
Offhand, I can't think of a crawler lane that exists because it
has been added to a motorway that already existed.
Motorways are often improved, and it seems to me unlikely that
there's never been such an improvement which involved adding a
crawler lane.
I'm not aware of it in the UK, as stated.
Yes, some carriageways have been widened, but that's not the same
as adding a crawler lane.
Even if you widen it from two to three lanes, and with signage
call lane one a crawler?
A crawler lane is an additional lane (ie, one more than the opposite
carriageway has)
That's a new addition to the goalpost collection. I don't know why
you couldn't add one each side, but mark the uphill one as a crawler
lane.
There is no reason at all. But that would be known as "road-widening".
I give up. You can discuss with yourself how many extra lanes vs road widening you can fit on a pinhead.
In message <kai6f6Fij6vU1@mid.individual.net>, at 14:40:54 on Sat, 22
Apr 2023, JNugent <jenningsandco@mail.com> remarked:
On 22/04/2023 12:11 pm, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <ka7nolFt08pU1@mid.individual.net>, at 15:28:37 on Tue, 18
Apr 2023, JNugent <jenningsandco@mail.com> remarked:
There's nothing odd about taking a left hand lane to turn right. >>>>>>>> It's taking an exit lane to stay on the same (important)
motorway route with the minor route carrying straight on which >>>>>>>> is unusual.
In the case of Great Barr, it's just artificial road numbering,
and all flows are just as important. So you do indeed turn left >>>>>>> to continue your north-south trip from Manchester to Bristol.
Or if you prefer, not far away is the M42, where you have to take >>>>>>> a lefthand sliproad to continue on the M42 off to the right (the >>>>>>> M6 Toll being the through-road off to the left).
Yes. I think, where possible, in order to leave the number of the
road you're on, you bear off to the left (regardless of which
direction the road then takes). To continue on the road you're
on, you keep to the right. [See M1-M18 junction.]
Normally, yes but here are many exceptions, such as the M42 above
(and Great Barr if "the road" is the strip of tarmac from
Manchester to Birmingham, despite the fact the bit of tarmac
labelled M6 on a map does a right-angle turn, and the onward bit >>>>> is labelled M5 on a map.
Eh?
I certainly don't remember that.
AFAICR (I nowadays usually try to avoid the Birmingham area when
travelling NW), the M6 originally ran as an uninterrupted strip of
tarmac/concrete from junction 19 of the M1 to a free-flow junction
with the A74 north of Carlisle. It was the through route at every
interchange.
No, the M6 was always down the LHS of the country then a sharp turn
across the north of Birmingham (via Spaghetti Junction) towards
Coventry. The bit down to the West Country being the M5.
The M6 was always the through route at its two separate junctions with
M5.
Only because that stretch of tarmac which turned ninety degrees was
labelled M6. The straight-ahead route turned into the M5.
Nowadays, the M6 through route is via the toll road,
Nonsense, it's an M6 bypass.
...which I have still never used even once.
I have a couple of times, most recently when I inadvisedly decided to
drive up to the Chester area on the Friday afternoon at the start of a half-term-holiday. Note for goat-herders: the toll booths take
contactless, but plastic-only. No Apple|Android Pay allowed.
The M6 was always the through route at its two separate junctions
with M5.
Only because that stretch of tarmac which turned ninety degrees was >>labelled M6. The straight-ahead route turned into the M5.
The eventual direction of a road reached via a slip road is neither
here nor there. When built (and before the coming of the BNRR), the M6
ran uninterrupted from the M1 at Crick to the A7 junction north of
Carlisle (where the motorway had a free-flow junction straight on as
A74 (now A74(M)). The M5 terminates at Great Barr and traffic merges
with M6 via slip roads.
On 27/04/2023 07:05 am, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <kai67hFii3sU1@mid.individual.net>, at 14:36:49 on Sat, 22
Apr 2023, JNugent <jenningsandco@mail.com> remarked:
Offhand, I can't think of a crawler lane that exists because it >>>>>>>has been added to a motorway that already existed.
Motorways are often improved, and it seems to me unlikely that >>>>>>there's never been such an improvement which involved adding a >>>>>>crawler lane.
I'm not aware of it in the UK, as stated.
Yes, some carriageways have been widened, but that's not the >>>>>>>same as adding a crawler lane.
Even if you widen it from two to three lanes, and with signage >>>>>>call lane one a crawler?
A crawler lane is an additional lane (ie, one more than the
opposite carriageway has)
That's a new addition to the goalpost collection. I don't know why >>>>you couldn't add one each side, but mark the uphill one as a
crawler lane.
There is no reason at all. But that would be known as "road-widening".
I give up. You can discuss with yourself how many extra lanes vs
road widening you can fit on a pinhead.
Have a look at the M6 near Cov. Ask yourself whether the nearside lane >heading east is a crawler lane or just the nearside lane on a
carriageway widened from three to four lanes.
In message <kavddjFk34qU4@mid.individual.net>, at 14:59:16 on Thu, 27
Apr 2023, JNugent <jenningsandco@mail.com> remarked:
On 27/04/2023 07:05 am, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <kai67hFii3sU1@mid.individual.net>, at 14:36:49 on Sat, 22
Apr 2023, JNugent <jenningsandco@mail.com> remarked:
Offhand, I can't think of a crawler lane that exists because it >>>>>>>> has been added to a motorway that already existed.
Motorways are often improved, and it seems to me unlikely that >>>>>>> there's never been such an improvement which involved adding a >>>>>>> crawler lane.
I'm not aware of it in the UK, as stated.
Yes, some carriageways have been widened, but that's not the
same as adding a crawler lane.
Even if you widen it from two to three lanes, and with signage >>>>>>> call lane one a crawler?
A crawler lane is an additional lane (ie, one more than the
opposite carriageway has)
That's a new addition to the goalpost collection. I don't know why >>>>> you couldn't add one each side, but mark the uphill one as a
crawler lane.
There is no reason at all. But that would be known as "road-widening".
I give up. You can discuss with yourself how many extra lanes vs
road widening you can fit on a pinhead.
Have a look at the M6 near Cov. Ask yourself whether the nearside lane
heading east is a crawler lane or just the nearside lane on a
carriageway widened from three to four lanes.
Sorry, I'm out of stock of pinheads.
In message <kave2gFk8ilU1@mid.individual.net>, at 15:10:24 on Thu, 27
Apr 2023, JNugent <jenningsandco@mail.com> remarked:
The M6 was always the through route at its two separate junctions
with M5.
Only because that stretch of tarmac which turned ninety degrees was
labelled M6. The straight-ahead route turned into the M5.
The eventual direction of a road reached via a slip road is neither
here nor there. When built (and before the coming of the BNRR), the M6
ran uninterrupted from the M1 at Crick to the A7 junction north of
Carlisle (where the motorway had a free-flow junction straight on as
A74 (now A74(M)). The M5 terminates at Great Barr and traffic merges
with M6 via slip roads.
Perhaps it would help if you examined the words I used carefully.
"through *route*"
The route of which a subset is from Manchester to Bristol.
On 28/04/2023 07:35 am, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <kavddjFk34qU4@mid.individual.net>, at 14:59:16 on Thu, 27
Apr 2023, JNugent <jenningsandco@mail.com> remarked:
On 27/04/2023 07:05 am, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <kai67hFii3sU1@mid.individual.net>, at 14:36:49 on Sat,
22 Apr 2023, JNugent <jenningsandco@mail.com> remarked:
Offhand, I can't think of a crawler lane that exists because >>>>>>>>>it has been added to a motorway that already existed.
Motorways are often improved, and it seems to me unlikely that >>>>>>>>there's never been such an improvement which involved adding a >>>>>>>>crawler lane.
I'm not aware of it in the UK, as stated.
Yes, some carriageways have been widened, but that's not the >>>>>>>>>same as adding a crawler lane.
Even if you widen it from two to three lanes, and with signage >>>>>>>>call lane one a crawler?
A crawler lane is an additional lane (ie, one more than the >>>>>>>opposite carriageway has)
That's a new addition to the goalpost collection. I don't know >>>>>>why you couldn't add one each side, but mark the uphill one as a >>>>>>crawler lane.
There is no reason at all. But that would be known as "road-widening".
I give up. You can discuss with yourself how many extra lanes vs >>>>road widening you can fit on a pinhead.
Have a look at the M6 near Cov. Ask yourself whether the nearside
lane heading east is a crawler lane or just the nearside lane on a >>>carriageway widened from three to four lanes.
Sorry, I'm out of stock of pinheads.
To make it easier still, check whether there are any signs saying
"Crawler Lane".
On 28/04/2023 07:38 am, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <kave2gFk8ilU1@mid.individual.net>, at 15:10:24 on Thu, 27
Apr 2023, JNugent <jenningsandco@mail.com> remarked:
The M6 was always the through route at its two separate junctions >>>>>with M5.
Only because that stretch of tarmac which turned ninety degrees
was labelled M6. The straight-ahead route turned into the M5.
The eventual direction of a road reached via a slip road is neither
here nor there. When built (and before the coming of the BNRR), the
M6 ran uninterrupted from the M1 at Crick to the A7 junction north
of Carlisle (where the motorway had a free-flow junction straight on
as A74 (now A74(M)). The M5 terminates at Great Barr and traffic
merges with M6 via slip roads.
Perhaps it would help if you examined the words I used carefully.
"through *route*"
The route of which a subset is from Manchester to Bristol.
You are using "straight ahead" in a way which is unfamiliar within the
world of highway engineering.
And there is no ninety degree turn, either.
On 28/04/2023 07:35 am, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <kavddjFk34qU4@mid.individual.net>, at 14:59:16 on Thu, 27
Apr 2023, JNugent <jenningsandco@mail.com> remarked:
On 27/04/2023 07:05 am, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <kai67hFii3sU1@mid.individual.net>, at 14:36:49 on Sat, 22
Apr 2023, JNugent <jenningsandco@mail.com> remarked:
Offhand, I can't think of a crawler lane that exists because it >>>>>>>>> has been added to a motorway that already existed.
Motorways are often improved, and it seems to me unlikely that >>>>>>>> there's never been such an improvement which involved adding a >>>>>>>> crawler lane.
I'm not aware of it in the UK, as stated.
Yes, some carriageways have been widened, but that's not the >>>>>>>>> same as adding a crawler lane.
Even if you widen it from two to three lanes, and with signage >>>>>>>> call lane one a crawler?
A crawler lane is an additional lane (ie, one more than the
opposite carriageway has)
That's a new addition to the goalpost collection. I don't know why >>>>>> you couldn't add one each side, but mark the uphill one as a
crawler lane.
There is no reason at all. But that would be known as "road-widening".
I give up. You can discuss with yourself how many extra lanes vs
road widening you can fit on a pinhead.
Have a look at the M6 near Cov. Ask yourself whether the nearside lane
heading east is a crawler lane or just the nearside lane on a
carriageway widened from three to four lanes.
Sorry, I'm out of stock of pinheads.
To make it easier still, check whether there are any signs saying
"Crawler Lane".
On 28/04/2023 07:35 am, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <kavddjFk34qU4@mid.individual.net>, at 14:59:16 on Thu, 27
Apr 2023, JNugent <jenningsandco@mail.com> remarked:
Have a look at the M6 near Cov. Ask yourself whether the nearside
lane heading east is a crawler lane or just the nearside lane on a
carriageway widened from three to four lanes.
Sorry, I'm out of stock of pinheads.
To make it easier still, check whether there are any signs saying
"Crawler Lane".
On 28/04/2023 10:21, JNugent wrote:
On 28/04/2023 07:35 am, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <kavddjFk34qU4@mid.individual.net>, at 14:59:16 on Thu, 27
Apr 2023, JNugent <jenningsandco@mail.com> remarked:
Have a look at the M6 near Cov. Ask yourself whether the nearside
lane heading east is a crawler lane or just the nearside lane on a
carriageway widened from three to four lanes.
Sorry, I'm out of stock of pinheads.
To make it easier still, check whether there are any signs saying
"Crawler Lane".
The term "crawler lane" is not used in the UK. It is implemented as a
ban on HVGs in the outer lane(s) like this example on A1(M)
JNugent <jenningsandco@mail.com> wrote:
On 28/04/2023 07:35 am, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <kavddjFk34qU4@mid.individual.net>, at 14:59:16 on Thu, 27
Apr 2023, JNugent <jenningsandco@mail.com> remarked:
On 27/04/2023 07:05 am, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <kai67hFii3sU1@mid.individual.net>, at 14:36:49 on Sat, 22 >>>>> Apr 2023, JNugent <jenningsandco@mail.com> remarked:
I give up. You can discuss with yourself how many extra lanes vsOffhand, I can't think of a crawler lane that exists because it >>>>>>>>>> has been added to a motorway that already existed.
Motorways are often improved, and it seems to me unlikely that >>>>>>>>> there's never been such an improvement which involved adding a >>>>>>>>> crawler lane.
I'm not aware of it in the UK, as stated.
Yes, some carriageways have been widened, but that's not the >>>>>>>>>> same as adding a crawler lane.
Even if you widen it from two to three lanes, and with signage >>>>>>>>> call lane one a crawler?
A crawler lane is an additional lane (ie, one more than the
opposite carriageway has)
That's a new addition to the goalpost collection. I don't know why >>>>>>> you couldn't add one each side, but mark the uphill one as a
crawler lane.
There is no reason at all. But that would be known as "road-widening". >>>
road widening you can fit on a pinhead.
Have a look at the M6 near Cov. Ask yourself whether the nearside lane >>>> heading east is a crawler lane or just the nearside lane on a
carriageway widened from three to four lanes.
Sorry, I'm out of stock of pinheads.
To make it easier still, check whether there are any signs saying
"Crawler Lane".
Is a sign showing a lorry in the left lane with arrows indicating a lane change plus “SLOW VEHS” painted on the road in the extra lane on the left count.
There in one of those on the M4 north of Swansea, westbound from junction
45.
I just looked again on street view and it has a sign saying “End of crawler lane Diwedd y lôn ymlusgo” under the road narrows from the left sign where the lane comes to an end.
I have no idea if that is as originally built. The hard shoulder looks
rather narrow along that stretch and the other lanes are narrower than I would like but I do not remember any explicit narrow lanes signs. M4 eastbound 34-33 has explicitly signed narrow lanes with an extra lane. That one is for traffic intending to leave at J33, not a crawler lane.
On 28/04/2023 10:21, JNugent wrote:
On 28/04/2023 07:35 am, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <kavddjFk34qU4@mid.individual.net>, at 14:59:16 on Thu, 27
Apr 2023, JNugent <jenningsandco@mail.com> remarked:
Have a look at the M6 near Cov. Ask yourself whether the nearside
lane heading east is a crawler lane or just the nearside lane on a
carriageway widened from three to four lanes.
Sorry, I'm out of stock of pinheads.
To make it easier still, check whether there are any signs saying
"Crawler Lane".
The term "crawler lane" is not used in the UK.
It is implemented as a
ban on HVGs in the outer lane(s) like this example on A1(M)
<https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.8566118,-1.5493123,3a,75y,109.61h,98.18t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSS59VYCQI4abnahiEuB1aQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192>
Or added as an extra lane from the outer lane as it is just at the climb
out of Team Valley near the Angel of the North (three lanes start at the derestricted signs and *it* is an anti-crawler lane for cars only).
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.9193809,-1.6010283,3a,75y,140.39h,66.89t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sET3OyTpgQBdF_XhTEL3BFg!2e0!5s20160601T000000!7i13312!8i6656
Central reservation was narrowed to make space for it. You can see the different coloured newer tarmac if you look without blinkers on.
Any *more* pinheads you would like to dance on?
On Sat, 29 Apr 2023 08:12:00 +0100, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 28/04/2023 10:21, JNugent wrote:
On 28/04/2023 07:35 am, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <kavddjFk34qU4@mid.individual.net>, at 14:59:16 on Thu, 27
Apr 2023, JNugent <jenningsandco@mail.com> remarked:
Have a look at the M6 near Cov. Ask yourself whether the nearside
lane heading east is a crawler lane or just the nearside lane on a
carriageway widened from three to four lanes.
Sorry, I'm out of stock of pinheads.
To make it easier still, check whether there are any signs saying
"Crawler Lane".
The term "crawler lane" is not used in the UK. It is implemented as a
ban on HVGs in the outer lane(s) like this example on A1(M)
The on-line version of the Highway Code disagrees with you:
139
https://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/multi-lane-carriageways.html
Anthony wrote:
Martin Brown wrote:
The term "crawler lane" is not used in the UK. It is implemented as a
ban on HVGs in the outer lane(s) like this example on A1(M)
The on-line version of the Highway Code disagrees with you:
https://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/multi-lane-carriageways.html
I thought the argument was just about crawler lanss on motorways
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