Found Lynn's version online!
https://terebess.hu/english/tao/Lynn.html
<< English version by Richard John Lynn, 2004 >>
<< The Classic of the Way and Virtue >>
Mention was made previously about a line in TTC 4.
<< I do not know whose child it could be,
for it appears to have been born before the Lord.>>
One may wonder, for Lynn, what does, the Lord,
refer to. Jesus? God? Shang Ti? Generic, the Lord?
Searching for Lynn's biography, a link was found.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/354031865_Concepts_of_Self_and_Identity_in_the_Zhuangzi_New_Translations_of_Key_Passages_in_Selfhood_East_and_West_De-constructions_of_Identity_Selected_Papers_from_the_18th_Symposium_of_the_Academie_Du_Midi_Id
No idea how to make that a tiny URL.
<< In the Zhuangzi, all conscious dimensions of self are presented in thoroughly negative terms and denounced as impediments to what it
regards as authentic self-realization: the attainment of
sage-hood or transformation into a true or authentic person,
a paradoxically self-transcendent, universal self. >>
- sounds apophatic! Thanks again! Cheers!
The question I have is whether the Asian philosophers were ever regarded as MAGI as likely to possess : gold, frankincense and myrrh
Especially given Lingbao Tianzun (靈寶天尊, "Lord of the Numinous Treasure") is
also known as the "Supreme Pure One" (Chinese: 上 清; pinyin: Shàngqīng) or
"The Universally Honoured One of Divinities and Treasures"
<< The Chinese historian Yu Ying-shi concludes that "as a general term, fang-shih may be translated 'religious Taoists' or 'popular Taoists,' since all such arts were later incorporated in the Taoist religion.
Only in specific cases depending on contexts, should the term be translated 'magicians,' 'alchemists,' or 'immortalists.'" Fangshi "is an elusive term that defies a consistent translation" >>
<https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fangshi>
one <being@apolka.sign> wrote:
Found Lynn's version online!
https://terebess.hu/english/tao/Lynn.html
<< English version by Richard John Lynn, 2004 >>
<< The Classic of the Way and Virtue >>
Mention was made previously about a line in TTC 4.
<< I do not know whose child it could be,
for it appears to have been born before the Lord.>>
One may wonder, for Lynn, what does, the Lord,
refer to. Jesus? God? Shang Ti? Generic, the Lord?
Searching for Lynn's biography, a link was found.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/354031865_Concepts_of_Self_and_Identity_in_the_Zhuangzi_New_Translations_of_Key_Passages_in_Selfhood_East_and_West_De-constructions_of_Identity_Selected_Papers_from_the_18th_Symposium_of_the_Academie_Du_Midi_Id
No idea how to make that a tiny URL.
<< In the Zhuangzi, all conscious dimensions of self are presented in
thoroughly negative terms and denounced as impediments to what it
regards as authentic self-realization: the attainment of
sage-hood or transformation into a true or authentic person,
a paradoxically self-transcendent, universal self. >>
- sounds apophatic! Thanks again! Cheers!
dol wrote:
The question I have is whether the Asian philosophers were ever regarded as >> MAGI as likely to possess : gold, frankincense and myrrh
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_Magi
<< The term refers to the Persian priestly caste of Zoroastrianism. >>
Especially given Lingbao Tianzun ("Lord of the Numinous Treasure") is
also known as the "Supreme Pure One" (Shàngqing) or
"The Universally Honoured One of Divinities and Treasures"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Pure_Ones
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingbao_Tianzun
I'm not seeing a reference
specifically to gold, frankincense and myrrh.
The word, ever, as in, ever regarded, has potential.
Wai Tan, External Alchemy, included mercury in cinnabar.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waidan
Gold is mentioned at the above link.
I don't know anything about the other two
being used to change consciousness, philosophically,
metaphysically, or getting stoned along the Way.
http://www.itmonline.org/arts/myrrh.htm
<< In the Chinese medicine books, frankincense was first mentioned in
the Mingyi Bielu (Miscellaneous Records of Famous Physicians; ca. 500
A.D.). It was called fanhunxiang (calling back the soul fragrance) and ruxiang (nipple-shaped fragrance); the latter name has been retained,
but the former is true to the original use of frankincense as incense
for mourning the dead. Myrrh, already known in China, entered the
formal herb books somewhat later, in the Kaibao Bencao (Materia Medica
of the Kaibao Era, 973 A.D.). Its name, moyao, indicates the medicine
(yao) of mo, the Chinese pronunciation of the Arabic name murr,
meaning bitter. In modern Chinese Materia Medica, these two resins are classified as herbs for vitalizing circulation of blood and are
utilized for treating traumatic injury, painful swellings, masses, and
other disorders related to stasis syndromes. Their source remains the
Middle East, though frankincense trees have been cultivated in
southern China. >>
<< In these ancient times, myrrh had been used in Egypt for embalming
the bodies of Pharaohs, and frankincense had been used in India to
make incense for worship (in India, a related species of plant is
indigenous, though it produces an inferior product). Myrrh and
frankincense, traded throughout the Middle East at least since 1500
B.C., eventually came to China. There is mention of myrrh in a 4th
century (A.D.) Chinese book that is no longer existent but is quoted
directly in a later text. As in the Middle East, myrrh and
frankincense were used in China for making incense, and are so used
even today. But, in characteristic Chinese fashion of finding a
medicinal use for virtually everything, these herbs were soon employed
as medicines.>>
The Silk Road provided ample opportunity for trade.
<< The Chinese historian Yu Ying-shi concludes that "as a general term,
fang-shih may be translated 'religious Taoists' or 'popular Taoists,' since >> all such arts were later incorporated in the Taoist religion.
Only in specific cases depending on contexts, should the term be translated >> 'magicians,' 'alchemists,' or 'immortalists.'" Fangshi "is an elusive term >> that defies a consistent translation" >>
<https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fangshi>
<< Joseph Needham traced the origins of Daoism to an alliance between fangshi, wu "shamans; doctors" and philosophers such as Laozi and
Zhuangzi:
At the heart of ancient Taoism there was an artisanal element, for
both the wizards and the philosophers were convinced that important
and useful things could be achieved by using one's hands. They did not participate in the mentality of the Confucian scholar-administrator,
who sat on high in his tribunal issuing orders and never employing his
hands except in reading and writing. This is why it came about that
wherever in ancient China one finds the sprouts of any of the natural sciences the Taoists are sure to be involved. The fang shih or
'gentlemen possessing magical recipes' were certainly Taoist, and they
worked in all kinds of directions as star-clerk and
weather-forecasters, men of farm-lore and wort-cunning, irrigators and bridge-builders, architects and decorators, but above all alchemists.
Indeed the beginning of all alchemy rests with them if we define it,
as surely we should, as the combination of macrobiotics and
aurifaction.[36]
Needham defined his "carefully chosen" words: macrobiotics "the belief
that, with the aid of botany, zoology, mineralogy, and alchemy, it is possible to prepare drugs or elixirs which will prolong life, giving longevity (shou) or immortality (pu ssu)" and aurifaction "the belief
that it is possible to make gold from other quite different
substances, notably the ignoble metals".
Csikszentmihalyi summarizes Daoist-fangshi connections,
The "methods" of the fangshi may be seen as forerunners of organized
Taoist practices on several levels. In the Han, the concept of the Dao
served to explain the efficacy of the myriad of newly forming
disciplines, and many of these disciplines were the province of the
fangshi. This explains why the term daoshi (masters of the Dao) was
already beginning to replace the term fangshi in the Hanshu, resulting
in its gradual eclipse of the latter term. On a more concrete level,
many specific techniques of spirit transcendence, medicine, and
alchemy initially used by fangshi found their way
into later Taoist practice. >>
In the Chuang-tzu, shamanism is dealt with in a passage
when Lieh Tzu brought a shaman to his teacher, Hu Tzu.
The shaman did not fare well during the encounter.
I don't recall anything about the fangshi in Tao Chia
so-called Taoist Philosophy as contrasted with
Tao Chiao, Taoist Religion.
To say there was no difference in practice, some scholars do.
Ancient historians appear to have disagreed, coining jargon.
- interesting! Thanks!
dol wrote:
The question I have is whether the Asian philosophers were ever regarded as >> MAGI as likely to possess : gold, frankincense and myrrh
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_Magi
<< The term refers to the Persian priestly caste of Zoroastrianism. >>
Especially given Lingbao Tianzun ("Lord of the Numinous Treasure") is
also known as the "Supreme Pure One" (Shàngqing) or
"The Universally Honoured One of Divinities and Treasures"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Pure_Ones
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingbao_Tianzun
I'm not seeing a reference
specifically to gold, frankincense and myrrh.
The word, ever, as in, ever regarded, has potential.
Wai Tan, External Alchemy, included mercury in cinnabar.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waidan
Gold is mentioned at the above link.
I don't know anything about the other two
being used to change consciousness, philosophically,
metaphysically, or getting stoned along the Way.
http://www.itmonline.org/arts/myrrh.htm
<< In the Chinese medicine books, frankincense was first mentioned in
the Mingyi Bielu (Miscellaneous Records of Famous Physicians; ca. 500
A.D.). It was called fanhunxiang (calling back the soul fragrance) and ruxiang (nipple-shaped fragrance); the latter name has been retained,
but the former is true to the original use of frankincense as incense
for mourning the dead. Myrrh, already known in China, entered the
formal herb books somewhat later, in the Kaibao Bencao (Materia Medica
of the Kaibao Era, 973 A.D.). Its name, moyao, indicates the medicine
(yao) of mo, the Chinese pronunciation of the Arabic name murr,
meaning bitter. In modern Chinese Materia Medica, these two resins are classified as herbs for vitalizing circulation of blood and are
utilized for treating traumatic injury, painful swellings, masses, and
other disorders related to stasis syndromes. Their source remains the
Middle East, though frankincense trees have been cultivated in
southern China. >>
<< In these ancient times, myrrh had been used in Egypt for embalming
the bodies of Pharaohs, and frankincense had been used in India to
make incense for worship (in India, a related species of plant is
indigenous, though it produces an inferior product). Myrrh and
frankincense, traded throughout the Middle East at least since 1500
B.C., eventually came to China. There is mention of myrrh in a 4th
century (A.D.) Chinese book that is no longer existent but is quoted
directly in a later text. As in the Middle East, myrrh and
frankincense were used in China for making incense, and are so used
even today. But, in characteristic Chinese fashion of finding a
medicinal use for virtually everything, these herbs were soon employed
as medicines.>>
The Silk Road provided ample opportunity for trade.
<< The Chinese historian Yu Ying-shi concludes that "as a general term,
fang-shih may be translated 'religious Taoists' or 'popular Taoists,' since >> all such arts were later incorporated in the Taoist religion.
Only in specific cases depending on contexts, should the term be translated >> 'magicians,' 'alchemists,' or 'immortalists.'" Fangshi "is an elusive term >> that defies a consistent translation" >>
<https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fangshi>
<< Joseph Needham traced the origins of Daoism to an alliance between fangshi, wu "shamans; doctors" and philosophers such as Laozi and
Zhuangzi:
At the heart of ancient Taoism there was an artisanal element, for
both the wizards and the philosophers were convinced that important
and useful things could be achieved by using one's hands. They did not participate in the mentality of the Confucian scholar-administrator,
who sat on high in his tribunal issuing orders and never employing his
hands except in reading and writing. This is why it came about that
wherever in ancient China one finds the sprouts of any of the natural sciences the Taoists are sure to be involved. The fang shih or
'gentlemen possessing magical recipes' were certainly Taoist, and they
worked in all kinds of directions as star-clerk and
weather-forecasters, men of farm-lore and wort-cunning, irrigators and bridge-builders, architects and decorators, but above all alchemists.
Indeed the beginning of all alchemy rests with them if we define it,
as surely we should, as the combination of macrobiotics and
aurifaction.[36]
Needham defined his "carefully chosen" words: macrobiotics "the belief
that, with the aid of botany, zoology, mineralogy, and alchemy, it is possible to prepare drugs or elixirs which will prolong life, giving longevity (shou) or immortality (pu ssu)" and aurifaction "the belief
that it is possible to make gold from other quite different
substances, notably the ignoble metals".
Csikszentmihalyi summarizes Daoist-fangshi connections,
The "methods" of the fangshi may be seen as forerunners of organized
Taoist practices on several levels. In the Han, the concept of the Dao
served to explain the efficacy of the myriad of newly forming
disciplines, and many of these disciplines were the province of the
fangshi. This explains why the term daoshi (masters of the Dao) was
already beginning to replace the term fangshi in the Hanshu, resulting
in its gradual eclipse of the latter term. On a more concrete level,
many specific techniques of spirit transcendence, medicine, and
alchemy initially used by fangshi found their way
into later Taoist practice. >>
In the Chuang-tzu, shamanism is dealt with in a passage
when Lieh Tzu brought a shaman to his teacher, Hu Tzu.
The shaman did not fare well during the encounter.
I don't recall anything about the fangshi in Tao Chia
so-called Taoist Philosophy as contrasted with
Tao Chiao, Taoist Religion.
To say there was no difference in practice, some scholars do.
Ancient historians appear to have disagreed, coining jargon.
- interesting! Thanks!
Thank you for clarifying the historical facts and answering my question.
one <being@apolka.sign> wrote:
dol wrote:
The question I have is whether the Asian philosophers were ever regarded as >>> MAGI as likely to possess : gold, frankincense and myrrh
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_Magi
<< The term refers to the Persian priestly caste of Zoroastrianism. >>
Especially given Lingbao Tianzun ("Lord of the Numinous Treasure") is
also known as the "Supreme Pure One" (Shàngqing) or
"The Universally Honoured One of Divinities and Treasures"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Pure_Ones
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingbao_Tianzun
I'm not seeing a reference
specifically to gold, frankincense and myrrh.
The word, ever, as in, ever regarded, has potential.
Wai Tan, External Alchemy, included mercury in cinnabar.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waidan
Gold is mentioned at the above link.
I don't know anything about the other two
being used to change consciousness, philosophically,
metaphysically, or getting stoned along the Way.
http://www.itmonline.org/arts/myrrh.htm
<< In the Chinese medicine books, frankincense was first mentioned in
the Mingyi Bielu (Miscellaneous Records of Famous Physicians; ca. 500
A.D.). It was called fanhunxiang (calling back the soul fragrance) and
ruxiang (nipple-shaped fragrance); the latter name has been retained,
but the former is true to the original use of frankincense as incense
for mourning the dead. Myrrh, already known in China, entered the
formal herb books somewhat later, in the Kaibao Bencao (Materia Medica
of the Kaibao Era, 973 A.D.). Its name, moyao, indicates the medicine
(yao) of mo, the Chinese pronunciation of the Arabic name murr,
meaning bitter. In modern Chinese Materia Medica, these two resins are
classified as herbs for vitalizing circulation of blood and are
utilized for treating traumatic injury, painful swellings, masses, and
other disorders related to stasis syndromes. Their source remains the
Middle East, though frankincense trees have been cultivated in
southern China. >>
<< In these ancient times, myrrh had been used in Egypt for embalming
the bodies of Pharaohs, and frankincense had been used in India to
make incense for worship (in India, a related species of plant is
indigenous, though it produces an inferior product). Myrrh and
frankincense, traded throughout the Middle East at least since 1500
B.C., eventually came to China. There is mention of myrrh in a 4th
century (A.D.) Chinese book that is no longer existent but is quoted
directly in a later text. As in the Middle East, myrrh and
frankincense were used in China for making incense, and are so used
even today. But, in characteristic Chinese fashion of finding a
medicinal use for virtually everything, these herbs were soon employed
as medicines.>>
The Silk Road provided ample opportunity for trade.
<< The Chinese historian Yu Ying-shi concludes that "as a general term,
fang-shih may be translated 'religious Taoists' or 'popular Taoists,' since >>> all such arts were later incorporated in the Taoist religion.
Only in specific cases depending on contexts, should the term be translated >>> 'magicians,' 'alchemists,' or 'immortalists.'" Fangshi "is an elusive term >>> that defies a consistent translation" >>
<https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fangshi>
<< Joseph Needham traced the origins of Daoism to an alliance between
fangshi, wu "shamans; doctors" and philosophers such as Laozi and
Zhuangzi:
At the heart of ancient Taoism there was an artisanal element, for
both the wizards and the philosophers were convinced that important
and useful things could be achieved by using one's hands. They did not
participate in the mentality of the Confucian scholar-administrator,
who sat on high in his tribunal issuing orders and never employing his
hands except in reading and writing. This is why it came about that
wherever in ancient China one finds the sprouts of any of the natural
sciences the Taoists are sure to be involved. The fang shih or
'gentlemen possessing magical recipes' were certainly Taoist, and they
worked in all kinds of directions as star-clerk and
weather-forecasters, men of farm-lore and wort-cunning, irrigators and
bridge-builders, architects and decorators, but above all alchemists.
Indeed the beginning of all alchemy rests with them if we define it,
as surely we should, as the combination of macrobiotics and
aurifaction.[36]
Needham defined his "carefully chosen" words: macrobiotics "the belief
that, with the aid of botany, zoology, mineralogy, and alchemy, it is
possible to prepare drugs or elixirs which will prolong life, giving
longevity (shou) or immortality (pu ssu)" and aurifaction "the belief
that it is possible to make gold from other quite different
substances, notably the ignoble metals".
Csikszentmihalyi summarizes Daoist-fangshi connections,
The "methods" of the fangshi may be seen as forerunners of organized
Taoist practices on several levels. In the Han, the concept of the Dao
served to explain the efficacy of the myriad of newly forming
disciplines, and many of these disciplines were the province of the
fangshi. This explains why the term daoshi (masters of the Dao) was
already beginning to replace the term fangshi in the Hanshu, resulting
in its gradual eclipse of the latter term. On a more concrete level,
many specific techniques of spirit transcendence, medicine, and
alchemy initially used by fangshi found their way
into later Taoist practice. >>
In the Chuang-tzu, shamanism is dealt with in a passage
when Lieh Tzu brought a shaman to his teacher, Hu Tzu.
The shaman did not fare well during the encounter.
I don't recall anything about the fangshi in Tao Chia
so-called Taoist Philosophy as contrasted with
Tao Chiao, Taoist Religion.
To say there was no difference in practice, some scholars do.
Ancient historians appear to have disagreed, coining jargon.
- interesting! Thanks!
Thank you for clarifying the historical facts and answering my question.
one <being@apolka.sign> wrote:
dol wrote:
The question I have is whether the Asian philosophers were ever regarded as >>> MAGI as likely to possess : gold, frankincense and myrrh
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_Magi
<< The term refers to the Persian priestly caste of Zoroastrianism. >>
Especially given Lingbao Tianzun ("Lord of the Numinous Treasure") is
also known as the "Supreme Pure One" (Shàngqing) or
"The Universally Honoured One of Divinities and Treasures"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Pure_Ones
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingbao_Tianzun
I'm not seeing a reference
specifically to gold, frankincense and myrrh.
The word, ever, as in, ever regarded, has potential.
Wai Tan, External Alchemy, included mercury in cinnabar.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waidan
Gold is mentioned at the above link.
I don't know anything about the other two
being used to change consciousness, philosophically,
metaphysically, or getting stoned along the Way.
http://www.itmonline.org/arts/myrrh.htm
<< In the Chinese medicine books, frankincense was first mentioned in
the Mingyi Bielu (Miscellaneous Records of Famous Physicians; ca. 500
A.D.). It was called fanhunxiang (calling back the soul fragrance) and
ruxiang (nipple-shaped fragrance); the latter name has been retained,
but the former is true to the original use of frankincense as incense
for mourning the dead. Myrrh, already known in China, entered the
formal herb books somewhat later, in the Kaibao Bencao (Materia Medica
of the Kaibao Era, 973 A.D.). Its name, moyao, indicates the medicine
(yao) of mo, the Chinese pronunciation of the Arabic name murr,
meaning bitter. In modern Chinese Materia Medica, these two resins are
classified as herbs for vitalizing circulation of blood and are
utilized for treating traumatic injury, painful swellings, masses, and
other disorders related to stasis syndromes. Their source remains the
Middle East, though frankincense trees have been cultivated in
southern China. >>
<< In these ancient times, myrrh had been used in Egypt for embalming
the bodies of Pharaohs, and frankincense had been used in India to
make incense for worship (in India, a related species of plant is
indigenous, though it produces an inferior product). Myrrh and
frankincense, traded throughout the Middle East at least since 1500
B.C., eventually came to China. There is mention of myrrh in a 4th
century (A.D.) Chinese book that is no longer existent but is quoted
directly in a later text. As in the Middle East, myrrh and
frankincense were used in China for making incense, and are so used
even today. But, in characteristic Chinese fashion of finding a
medicinal use for virtually everything, these herbs were soon employed
as medicines.>>
The Silk Road provided ample opportunity for trade.
<< The Chinese historian Yu Ying-shi concludes that "as a general term,
fang-shih may be translated 'religious Taoists' or 'popular Taoists,' since >>> all such arts were later incorporated in the Taoist religion.
Only in specific cases depending on contexts, should the term be translated >>> 'magicians,' 'alchemists,' or 'immortalists.'" Fangshi "is an elusive term >>> that defies a consistent translation" >>
<https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fangshi>
<< Joseph Needham traced the origins of Daoism to an alliance between
fangshi, wu "shamans; doctors" and philosophers such as Laozi and
Zhuangzi:
At the heart of ancient Taoism there was an artisanal element, for
both the wizards and the philosophers were convinced that important
and useful things could be achieved by using one's hands. They did not
participate in the mentality of the Confucian scholar-administrator,
who sat on high in his tribunal issuing orders and never employing his
hands except in reading and writing. This is why it came about that
wherever in ancient China one finds the sprouts of any of the natural
sciences the Taoists are sure to be involved. The fang shih or
'gentlemen possessing magical recipes' were certainly Taoist, and they
worked in all kinds of directions as star-clerk and
weather-forecasters, men of farm-lore and wort-cunning, irrigators and
bridge-builders, architects and decorators, but above all alchemists.
Indeed the beginning of all alchemy rests with them if we define it,
as surely we should, as the combination of macrobiotics and
aurifaction.[36]
Needham defined his "carefully chosen" words: macrobiotics "the belief
that, with the aid of botany, zoology, mineralogy, and alchemy, it is
possible to prepare drugs or elixirs which will prolong life, giving
longevity (shou) or immortality (pu ssu)" and aurifaction "the belief
that it is possible to make gold from other quite different
substances, notably the ignoble metals".
Csikszentmihalyi summarizes Daoist-fangshi connections,
The "methods" of the fangshi may be seen as forerunners of organized
Taoist practices on several levels. In the Han, the concept of the Dao
served to explain the efficacy of the myriad of newly forming
disciplines, and many of these disciplines were the province of the
fangshi. This explains why the term daoshi (masters of the Dao) was
already beginning to replace the term fangshi in the Hanshu, resulting
in its gradual eclipse of the latter term. On a more concrete level,
many specific techniques of spirit transcendence, medicine, and
alchemy initially used by fangshi found their way
into later Taoist practice. >>
In the Chuang-tzu, shamanism is dealt with in a passage
when Lieh Tzu brought a shaman to his teacher, Hu Tzu.
The shaman did not fare well during the encounter.
I don't recall anything about the fangshi in Tao Chia
so-called Taoist Philosophy as contrasted with
Tao Chiao, Taoist Religion.
To say there was no difference in practice, some scholars do.
Ancient historians appear to have disagreed, coining jargon.
- interesting! Thanks!
dolf <dolfboek@hotmail.com> wrote:
Thank you for clarifying the historical facts and answering my question.
I note that the Silk Road enabled trade with Rome which is further west
than Jerusalem.
<< Silk Road, also called Silk Route, ancient trade route, linking China
with the West, that carried goods and ideas between the two great civilizations of Rome and China. >>
<https://www.britannica.com/topic/Silk-Road-trade-route>
one <being@apolka.sign> wrote:
dol wrote:
The question I have is whether the Asian philosophers were ever regarded as
MAGI as likely to possess : gold, frankincense and myrrh
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_Magi
<< The term refers to the Persian priestly caste of Zoroastrianism. >>
Especially given Lingbao Tianzun ("Lord of the Numinous Treasure") is
also known as the "Supreme Pure One" (Shàngqing) or
"The Universally Honoured One of Divinities and Treasures"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Pure_Ones
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingbao_Tianzun
I'm not seeing a reference
specifically to gold, frankincense and myrrh.
The word, ever, as in, ever regarded, has potential.
Wai Tan, External Alchemy, included mercury in cinnabar.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waidan
Gold is mentioned at the above link.
I don't know anything about the other two
being used to change consciousness, philosophically,
metaphysically, or getting stoned along the Way.
http://www.itmonline.org/arts/myrrh.htm
<< In the Chinese medicine books, frankincense was first mentioned in
the Mingyi Bielu (Miscellaneous Records of Famous Physicians; ca. 500
A.D.). It was called fanhunxiang (calling back the soul fragrance) and
ruxiang (nipple-shaped fragrance); the latter name has been retained,
but the former is true to the original use of frankincense as incense
for mourning the dead. Myrrh, already known in China, entered the
formal herb books somewhat later, in the Kaibao Bencao (Materia Medica
of the Kaibao Era, 973 A.D.). Its name, moyao, indicates the medicine
(yao) of mo, the Chinese pronunciation of the Arabic name murr,
meaning bitter. In modern Chinese Materia Medica, these two resins are
classified as herbs for vitalizing circulation of blood and are
utilized for treating traumatic injury, painful swellings, masses, and
other disorders related to stasis syndromes. Their source remains the
Middle East, though frankincense trees have been cultivated in
southern China. >>
<< In these ancient times, myrrh had been used in Egypt for embalming
the bodies of Pharaohs, and frankincense had been used in India to
make incense for worship (in India, a related species of plant is
indigenous, though it produces an inferior product). Myrrh and
frankincense, traded throughout the Middle East at least since 1500
B.C., eventually came to China. There is mention of myrrh in a 4th
century (A.D.) Chinese book that is no longer existent but is quoted
directly in a later text. As in the Middle East, myrrh and
frankincense were used in China for making incense, and are so used
even today. But, in characteristic Chinese fashion of finding a
medicinal use for virtually everything, these herbs were soon employed
as medicines.>>
The Silk Road provided ample opportunity for trade.
<< The Chinese historian Yu Ying-shi concludes that "as a general term, >>>> fang-shih may be translated 'religious Taoists' or 'popular Taoists,' since
all such arts were later incorporated in the Taoist religion.
Only in specific cases depending on contexts, should the term be translated
'magicians,' 'alchemists,' or 'immortalists.'" Fangshi "is an elusive term >>>> that defies a consistent translation" >>
<https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fangshi>
<< Joseph Needham traced the origins of Daoism to an alliance between
fangshi, wu "shamans; doctors" and philosophers such as Laozi and
Zhuangzi:
At the heart of ancient Taoism there was an artisanal element, for
both the wizards and the philosophers were convinced that important
and useful things could be achieved by using one's hands. They did not
participate in the mentality of the Confucian scholar-administrator,
who sat on high in his tribunal issuing orders and never employing his
hands except in reading and writing. This is why it came about that
wherever in ancient China one finds the sprouts of any of the natural
sciences the Taoists are sure to be involved. The fang shih or
'gentlemen possessing magical recipes' were certainly Taoist, and they
worked in all kinds of directions as star-clerk and
weather-forecasters, men of farm-lore and wort-cunning, irrigators and
bridge-builders, architects and decorators, but above all alchemists.
Indeed the beginning of all alchemy rests with them if we define it,
as surely we should, as the combination of macrobiotics and
aurifaction.[36]
Needham defined his "carefully chosen" words: macrobiotics "the belief
that, with the aid of botany, zoology, mineralogy, and alchemy, it is
possible to prepare drugs or elixirs which will prolong life, giving
longevity (shou) or immortality (pu ssu)" and aurifaction "the belief
that it is possible to make gold from other quite different
substances, notably the ignoble metals".
Csikszentmihalyi summarizes Daoist-fangshi connections,
The "methods" of the fangshi may be seen as forerunners of organized
Taoist practices on several levels. In the Han, the concept of the Dao
served to explain the efficacy of the myriad of newly forming
disciplines, and many of these disciplines were the province of the
fangshi. This explains why the term daoshi (masters of the Dao) was
already beginning to replace the term fangshi in the Hanshu, resulting
in its gradual eclipse of the latter term. On a more concrete level,
many specific techniques of spirit transcendence, medicine, and
alchemy initially used by fangshi found their way
into later Taoist practice. >>
In the Chuang-tzu, shamanism is dealt with in a passage
when Lieh Tzu brought a shaman to his teacher, Hu Tzu.
The shaman did not fare well during the encounter.
I don't recall anything about the fangshi in Tao Chia
so-called Taoist Philosophy as contrasted with
Tao Chiao, Taoist Religion.
To say there was no difference in practice, some scholars do.
Ancient historians appear to have disagreed, coining jargon.
- interesting! Thanks!
dolf <dolfboek@hotmail.com> wrote:
Thank you for clarifying the historical facts and answering my question.
I note that the Silk Road enabled trade with Rome which is further west
than Jerusalem.
<< Silk Road, also called Silk Route, ancient trade route, linking China
with the West, that carried goods and ideas between the two great civilizations of Rome and China. >>
<https://www.britannica.com/topic/Silk-Road-trade-route>
one <being@apolka.sign> wrote:
dol wrote:
The question I have is whether the Asian philosophers were ever regarded as
MAGI as likely to possess : gold, frankincense and myrrh
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_Magi
<< The term refers to the Persian priestly caste of Zoroastrianism. >>
Especially given Lingbao Tianzun ("Lord of the Numinous Treasure") is
also known as the "Supreme Pure One" (Shàngqing) or
"The Universally Honoured One of Divinities and Treasures"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Pure_Ones
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingbao_Tianzun
I'm not seeing a reference
specifically to gold, frankincense and myrrh.
The word, ever, as in, ever regarded, has potential.
Wai Tan, External Alchemy, included mercury in cinnabar.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waidan
Gold is mentioned at the above link.
I don't know anything about the other two
being used to change consciousness, philosophically,
metaphysically, or getting stoned along the Way.
http://www.itmonline.org/arts/myrrh.htm
<< In the Chinese medicine books, frankincense was first mentioned in
the Mingyi Bielu (Miscellaneous Records of Famous Physicians; ca. 500
A.D.). It was called fanhunxiang (calling back the soul fragrance) and
ruxiang (nipple-shaped fragrance); the latter name has been retained,
but the former is true to the original use of frankincense as incense
for mourning the dead. Myrrh, already known in China, entered the
formal herb books somewhat later, in the Kaibao Bencao (Materia Medica
of the Kaibao Era, 973 A.D.). Its name, moyao, indicates the medicine
(yao) of mo, the Chinese pronunciation of the Arabic name murr,
meaning bitter. In modern Chinese Materia Medica, these two resins are
classified as herbs for vitalizing circulation of blood and are
utilized for treating traumatic injury, painful swellings, masses, and
other disorders related to stasis syndromes. Their source remains the
Middle East, though frankincense trees have been cultivated in
southern China. >>
<< In these ancient times, myrrh had been used in Egypt for embalming
the bodies of Pharaohs, and frankincense had been used in India to
make incense for worship (in India, a related species of plant is
indigenous, though it produces an inferior product). Myrrh and
frankincense, traded throughout the Middle East at least since 1500
B.C., eventually came to China. There is mention of myrrh in a 4th
century (A.D.) Chinese book that is no longer existent but is quoted
directly in a later text. As in the Middle East, myrrh and
frankincense were used in China for making incense, and are so used
even today. But, in characteristic Chinese fashion of finding a
medicinal use for virtually everything, these herbs were soon employed
as medicines.>>
The Silk Road provided ample opportunity for trade.
<< The Chinese historian Yu Ying-shi concludes that "as a general term, >>>> fang-shih may be translated 'religious Taoists' or 'popular Taoists,' since
all such arts were later incorporated in the Taoist religion.
Only in specific cases depending on contexts, should the term be translated
'magicians,' 'alchemists,' or 'immortalists.'" Fangshi "is an elusive term >>>> that defies a consistent translation" >>
<https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fangshi>
<< Joseph Needham traced the origins of Daoism to an alliance between
fangshi, wu "shamans; doctors" and philosophers such as Laozi and
Zhuangzi:
At the heart of ancient Taoism there was an artisanal element, for
both the wizards and the philosophers were convinced that important
and useful things could be achieved by using one's hands. They did not
participate in the mentality of the Confucian scholar-administrator,
who sat on high in his tribunal issuing orders and never employing his
hands except in reading and writing. This is why it came about that
wherever in ancient China one finds the sprouts of any of the natural
sciences the Taoists are sure to be involved. The fang shih or
'gentlemen possessing magical recipes' were certainly Taoist, and they
worked in all kinds of directions as star-clerk and
weather-forecasters, men of farm-lore and wort-cunning, irrigators and
bridge-builders, architects and decorators, but above all alchemists.
Indeed the beginning of all alchemy rests with them if we define it,
as surely we should, as the combination of macrobiotics and
aurifaction.[36]
Needham defined his "carefully chosen" words: macrobiotics "the belief
that, with the aid of botany, zoology, mineralogy, and alchemy, it is
possible to prepare drugs or elixirs which will prolong life, giving
longevity (shou) or immortality (pu ssu)" and aurifaction "the belief
that it is possible to make gold from other quite different
substances, notably the ignoble metals".
Csikszentmihalyi summarizes Daoist-fangshi connections,
The "methods" of the fangshi may be seen as forerunners of organized
Taoist practices on several levels. In the Han, the concept of the Dao
served to explain the efficacy of the myriad of newly forming
disciplines, and many of these disciplines were the province of the
fangshi. This explains why the term daoshi (masters of the Dao) was
already beginning to replace the term fangshi in the Hanshu, resulting
in its gradual eclipse of the latter term. On a more concrete level,
many specific techniques of spirit transcendence, medicine, and
alchemy initially used by fangshi found their way
into later Taoist practice. >>
In the Chuang-tzu, shamanism is dealt with in a passage
when Lieh Tzu brought a shaman to his teacher, Hu Tzu.
The shaman did not fare well during the encounter.
I don't recall anything about the fangshi in Tao Chia
so-called Taoist Philosophy as contrasted with
Tao Chiao, Taoist Religion.
To say there was no difference in practice, some scholars do.
Ancient historians appear to have disagreed, coining jargon.
- interesting! Thanks!
dolf <dolfboek@hotmail.com> wrote:
Thank you for clarifying the historical facts and answering my question.
I note that the Silk Road enabled trade with Rome which is further west
than Jerusalem.
<< Silk Road, also called Silk Route, ancient trade route, linking China
with the West, that carried goods and ideas between the two great civilizations of Rome and China. >>
<https://www.britannica.com/topic/Silk-Road-trade-route>
one <being@apolka.sign> wrote:
dol wrote:
The question I have is whether the Asian philosophers were ever regarded as
MAGI as likely to possess : gold, frankincense and myrrh
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_Magi
<< The term refers to the Persian priestly caste of Zoroastrianism. >>
Especially given Lingbao Tianzun ("Lord of the Numinous Treasure") is
also known as the "Supreme Pure One" (Shàngqing) or
"The Universally Honoured One of Divinities and Treasures"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Pure_Ones
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingbao_Tianzun
I'm not seeing a reference
specifically to gold, frankincense and myrrh.
The word, ever, as in, ever regarded, has potential.
Wai Tan, External Alchemy, included mercury in cinnabar.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waidan
Gold is mentioned at the above link.
I don't know anything about the other two
being used to change consciousness, philosophically,
metaphysically, or getting stoned along the Way.
http://www.itmonline.org/arts/myrrh.htm
<< In the Chinese medicine books, frankincense was first mentioned in
the Mingyi Bielu (Miscellaneous Records of Famous Physicians; ca. 500
A.D.). It was called fanhunxiang (calling back the soul fragrance) and
ruxiang (nipple-shaped fragrance); the latter name has been retained,
but the former is true to the original use of frankincense as incense
for mourning the dead. Myrrh, already known in China, entered the
formal herb books somewhat later, in the Kaibao Bencao (Materia Medica
of the Kaibao Era, 973 A.D.). Its name, moyao, indicates the medicine
(yao) of mo, the Chinese pronunciation of the Arabic name murr,
meaning bitter. In modern Chinese Materia Medica, these two resins are
classified as herbs for vitalizing circulation of blood and are
utilized for treating traumatic injury, painful swellings, masses, and
other disorders related to stasis syndromes. Their source remains the
Middle East, though frankincense trees have been cultivated in
southern China. >>
<< In these ancient times, myrrh had been used in Egypt for embalming
the bodies of Pharaohs, and frankincense had been used in India to
make incense for worship (in India, a related species of plant is
indigenous, though it produces an inferior product). Myrrh and
frankincense, traded throughout the Middle East at least since 1500
B.C., eventually came to China. There is mention of myrrh in a 4th
century (A.D.) Chinese book that is no longer existent but is quoted
directly in a later text. As in the Middle East, myrrh and
frankincense were used in China for making incense, and are so used
even today. But, in characteristic Chinese fashion of finding a
medicinal use for virtually everything, these herbs were soon employed
as medicines.>>
The Silk Road provided ample opportunity for trade.
<< The Chinese historian Yu Ying-shi concludes that "as a general term, >>>> fang-shih may be translated 'religious Taoists' or 'popular Taoists,' since
all such arts were later incorporated in the Taoist religion.
Only in specific cases depending on contexts, should the term be translated
'magicians,' 'alchemists,' or 'immortalists.'" Fangshi "is an elusive term >>>> that defies a consistent translation" >>
<https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fangshi>
<< Joseph Needham traced the origins of Daoism to an alliance between
fangshi, wu "shamans; doctors" and philosophers such as Laozi and
Zhuangzi:
At the heart of ancient Taoism there was an artisanal element, for
both the wizards and the philosophers were convinced that important
and useful things could be achieved by using one's hands. They did not
participate in the mentality of the Confucian scholar-administrator,
who sat on high in his tribunal issuing orders and never employing his
hands except in reading and writing. This is why it came about that
wherever in ancient China one finds the sprouts of any of the natural
sciences the Taoists are sure to be involved. The fang shih or
'gentlemen possessing magical recipes' were certainly Taoist, and they
worked in all kinds of directions as star-clerk and
weather-forecasters, men of farm-lore and wort-cunning, irrigators and
bridge-builders, architects and decorators, but above all alchemists.
Indeed the beginning of all alchemy rests with them if we define it,
as surely we should, as the combination of macrobiotics and
aurifaction.[36]
Needham defined his "carefully chosen" words: macrobiotics "the belief
that, with the aid of botany, zoology, mineralogy, and alchemy, it is
possible to prepare drugs or elixirs which will prolong life, giving
longevity (shou) or immortality (pu ssu)" and aurifaction "the belief
that it is possible to make gold from other quite different
substances, notably the ignoble metals".
Csikszentmihalyi summarizes Daoist-fangshi connections,
The "methods" of the fangshi may be seen as forerunners of organized
Taoist practices on several levels. In the Han, the concept of the Dao
served to explain the efficacy of the myriad of newly forming
disciplines, and many of these disciplines were the province of the
fangshi. This explains why the term daoshi (masters of the Dao) was
already beginning to replace the term fangshi in the Hanshu, resulting
in its gradual eclipse of the latter term. On a more concrete level,
many specific techniques of spirit transcendence, medicine, and
alchemy initially used by fangshi found their way
into later Taoist practice. >>
In the Chuang-tzu, shamanism is dealt with in a passage
when Lieh Tzu brought a shaman to his teacher, Hu Tzu.
The shaman did not fare well during the encounter.
I don't recall anything about the fangshi in Tao Chia
so-called Taoist Philosophy as contrasted with
Tao Chiao, Taoist Religion.
To say there was no difference in practice, some scholars do.
Ancient historians appear to have disagreed, coining jargon.
- interesting! Thanks!
You didn’t comment on the notion that the Silk Road trading route passed through to Persia.
dolf <dolfboek@hotmail.com> wrote:
dolf <dolfboek@hotmail.com> wrote:
Thank you for clarifying the historical facts and answering my question.
I note that the Silk Road enabled trade with Rome which is further west
than Jerusalem.
<< Silk Road, also called Silk Route, ancient trade route, linking China
with the West, that carried goods and ideas between the two great
civilizations of Rome and China. >>
<https://www.britannica.com/topic/Silk-Road-trade-route>
The periapsis occurring on 3 January maps to #314 - magus and with the
canon of supreme mystery tetra #3 to hexagram H3 - BIRTH THROES.
If I reference the Dao Te Ching #3 it reads as follows:
"Neglecting to praise the worthy deters people from emulating them,
Not prizing rare treasures deters a man from becoming a thief, Ignoring the things which awaken desire keeps the heart at rest. Therefore the wise ruler does not suggest unnecessary things,
He seeks to satisfy the minds of his people.
He seeks to allay appetites but strengthen bones.
He ever tries by keeping people in ignorance to keep them satisfied
and those who have knowledge he restrains from evil.
If he, himself, practices restraint then everything is in quietness." -
Translated by Dwight Goddard and Henri Borel, 1919, Chapter 3
<https://www.grapple369.com/images/EarthSeasons.png>
one <being@apolka.sign> wrote:
dol wrote:
The question I have is whether the Asian philosophers were ever regarded as
MAGI as likely to possess : gold, frankincense and myrrh
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_Magi
<< The term refers to the Persian priestly caste of Zoroastrianism. >> >>>>
Especially given Lingbao Tianzun ("Lord of the Numinous Treasure") is >>>>> also known as the "Supreme Pure One" (Shàngqing) or
"The Universally Honoured One of Divinities and Treasures"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Pure_Ones
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingbao_Tianzun
I'm not seeing a reference
specifically to gold, frankincense and myrrh.
The word, ever, as in, ever regarded, has potential.
Wai Tan, External Alchemy, included mercury in cinnabar.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waidan
Gold is mentioned at the above link.
I don't know anything about the other two
being used to change consciousness, philosophically,
metaphysically, or getting stoned along the Way.
http://www.itmonline.org/arts/myrrh.htm
<< In the Chinese medicine books, frankincense was first mentioned in
the Mingyi Bielu (Miscellaneous Records of Famous Physicians; ca. 500
A.D.). It was called fanhunxiang (calling back the soul fragrance) and >>>> ruxiang (nipple-shaped fragrance); the latter name has been retained,
but the former is true to the original use of frankincense as incense
for mourning the dead. Myrrh, already known in China, entered the
formal herb books somewhat later, in the Kaibao Bencao (Materia Medica >>>> of the Kaibao Era, 973 A.D.). Its name, moyao, indicates the medicine
(yao) of mo, the Chinese pronunciation of the Arabic name murr,
meaning bitter. In modern Chinese Materia Medica, these two resins are >>>> classified as herbs for vitalizing circulation of blood and are
utilized for treating traumatic injury, painful swellings, masses, and >>>> other disorders related to stasis syndromes. Their source remains the
Middle East, though frankincense trees have been cultivated in
southern China. >>
<< In these ancient times, myrrh had been used in Egypt for embalming
the bodies of Pharaohs, and frankincense had been used in India to
make incense for worship (in India, a related species of plant is
indigenous, though it produces an inferior product). Myrrh and
frankincense, traded throughout the Middle East at least since 1500
B.C., eventually came to China. There is mention of myrrh in a 4th
century (A.D.) Chinese book that is no longer existent but is quoted
directly in a later text. As in the Middle East, myrrh and
frankincense were used in China for making incense, and are so used
even today. But, in characteristic Chinese fashion of finding a
medicinal use for virtually everything, these herbs were soon employed >>>> as medicines.>>
The Silk Road provided ample opportunity for trade.
<< The Chinese historian Yu Ying-shi concludes that "as a general term, >>>>> fang-shih may be translated 'religious Taoists' or 'popular Taoists,' since
all such arts were later incorporated in the Taoist religion.
Only in specific cases depending on contexts, should the term be translated
'magicians,' 'alchemists,' or 'immortalists.'" Fangshi "is an elusive term
that defies a consistent translation" >>
<https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fangshi>
<< Joseph Needham traced the origins of Daoism to an alliance between
fangshi, wu "shamans; doctors" and philosophers such as Laozi and
Zhuangzi:
At the heart of ancient Taoism there was an artisanal element, for
both the wizards and the philosophers were convinced that important
and useful things could be achieved by using one's hands. They did not >>>> participate in the mentality of the Confucian scholar-administrator,
who sat on high in his tribunal issuing orders and never employing his >>>> hands except in reading and writing. This is why it came about that
wherever in ancient China one finds the sprouts of any of the natural
sciences the Taoists are sure to be involved. The fang shih or
'gentlemen possessing magical recipes' were certainly Taoist, and they >>>> worked in all kinds of directions as star-clerk and
weather-forecasters, men of farm-lore and wort-cunning, irrigators and >>>> bridge-builders, architects and decorators, but above all alchemists.
Indeed the beginning of all alchemy rests with them if we define it,
as surely we should, as the combination of macrobiotics and
aurifaction.[36]
Needham defined his "carefully chosen" words: macrobiotics "the belief >>>> that, with the aid of botany, zoology, mineralogy, and alchemy, it is
possible to prepare drugs or elixirs which will prolong life, giving
longevity (shou) or immortality (pu ssu)" and aurifaction "the belief
that it is possible to make gold from other quite different
substances, notably the ignoble metals".
Csikszentmihalyi summarizes Daoist-fangshi connections,
The "methods" of the fangshi may be seen as forerunners of organized
Taoist practices on several levels. In the Han, the concept of the Dao >>>> served to explain the efficacy of the myriad of newly forming
disciplines, and many of these disciplines were the province of the
fangshi. This explains why the term daoshi (masters of the Dao) was
already beginning to replace the term fangshi in the Hanshu, resulting >>>> in its gradual eclipse of the latter term. On a more concrete level,
many specific techniques of spirit transcendence, medicine, and
alchemy initially used by fangshi found their way
into later Taoist practice. >>
In the Chuang-tzu, shamanism is dealt with in a passage
when Lieh Tzu brought a shaman to his teacher, Hu Tzu.
The shaman did not fare well during the encounter.
I don't recall anything about the fangshi in Tao Chia
so-called Taoist Philosophy as contrasted with
Tao Chiao, Taoist Religion.
To say there was no difference in practice, some scholars do.
Ancient historians appear to have disagreed, coining jargon.
- interesting! Thanks!
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