I am fitting a Manrose MF100T ventilation fan in our bathroom. This will
have a 3 pole isolator outside the bathroom and the plan is to run it in conjunction with the bathroom light so that the fan comes on when the light is operated typical of many windowless bathrooms and en-suites in many
modern houses.
The issue is that the manufacturer specify’s a 3A max. fuse for live and switched live and of course the lighting circuit is 6A.
I am fitting a Manrose MF100T ventilation fan in our bathroom. This will
have a 3 pole isolator outside the bathroom and the plan is to run it in conjunction with the bathroom light so that the fan comes on when the light is operated typical of many windowless bathrooms and en-suites in many
modern houses.
The issue is that the manufacturer specify’s a 3A max. fuse for live and switched live and of course the lighting circuit is 6A.
One option is to fit a fused spur unit into the incoming feed for the bathroom but that means all lights beyond that point would now be protected by a 3A fuse and the issue is that there are at least 3 ceiling fans in the rooms beyond that point.
An alternative is to take 3-core and E cable from the bathroom light as planned and using two FCU’s
One for live and the other for switched live before running the rest of the cable to the 3-pole isolator.
The trouble is that I have not seen this arrangement anywhere. My daughters new build has one bathroom, 2 en-suites and a cloakroom/WC all windowless
and all with ventilators activated by the light switch and I know all the lighting circuits are 6A.
So what to do?
I am fitting a Manrose MF100T ventilation fan in our bathroom. This willNot an answer, but a suggestion: consider having two pull switches, one
have a 3 pole isolator outside the bathroom and the plan is to run it in conjunction with the bathroom light so that the fan comes on when the light is operated typical of many windowless bathrooms and en-suites in many
modern houses.
The issue is that the manufacturer specify’s a 3A max. fuse for live and switched live and of course the lighting circuit is 6A.
One option is to fit a fused spur unit into the incoming feed for the bathroom but that means all lights beyond that point would now be protected by a 3A fuse and the issue is that there are at least 3 ceiling fans in the rooms beyond that point.
An alternative is to take 3-core and E cable from the bathroom light as planned and using two FCU’s
One for live and the other for switched live before running the rest of the cable to the 3-pole isolator.
The trouble is that I have not seen this arrangement anywhere. My daughters new build has one bathroom, 2 en-suites and a cloakroom/WC all windowless
and all with ventilators activated by the light switch and I know all the lighting circuits are 6A.
So what to do?
I have a link to a similar fan which unlike the instructions for the MF100T has a wiring diagram
https://www.manrose.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/doc/FandWs/496934.pdf
On 03/01/2024 16:07, Tricky Dicky wrote:
I am fitting a Manrose MF100T ventilation fan in our bathroom. This will
have a 3 pole isolator outside the bathroom and the plan is to run it in
conjunction with the bathroom light so that the fan comes on when the light >> is operated typical of many windowless bathrooms and en-suites in many
modern houses.
The issue is that the manufacturer specify’s a 3A max. fuse for live and >> switched live and of course the lighting circuit is 6A.
One option is to fit a fused spur unit into the incoming feed for the
bathroom but that means all lights beyond that point would now be protected >> by a 3A fuse and the issue is that there are at least 3 ceiling fans in the >> rooms beyond that point.
An alternative is to take 3-core and E cable from the bathroom light as
planned and using two FCU’s
One for live and the other for switched live before running the rest of the >> cable to the 3-pole isolator.
The trouble is that I have not seen this arrangement anywhere. My daughters >> new build has one bathroom, 2 en-suites and a cloakroom/WC all windowless
and all with ventilators activated by the light switch and I know all the
lighting circuits are 6A.
So what to do?
I may be missing something but why not /one/ FCU protecting a branch
from the light circuit to /only/ the light and fan?
https://groups.google.com/g/uk.d-i-y/c/lU5icmzsuCM/m/b05BvGWYDwAJ
One option is to fit a fused spur unit into the incoming feed for the bathroom but that means all lights beyond that point would now be protected by a 3A fuse and the issue is that there are at least 3 ceiling fans in the rooms beyond that point.
On 03/01/2024 16:07, Tricky Dicky wrote:
One option is to fit a fused spur unit into the incoming feed for the
bathroom but that means all lights beyond that point would now be protected >> by a 3A fuse and the issue is that there are at least 3 ceiling fans in the >> rooms beyond that point.
Just do what 95% of sparkies do, and dont bother with the fused spur.
There really is no need for it.
Or, buy a Greenwood fan, they dont require a 3 amp fuse.
What happens next time work is done at the same premises? I thought
there was a 'last man out' rule making each successive electrician responsible for the entire system - or is responsibility restricted to
the work done by each individual electrician? I have never been sure.
You have to ensure your own work is to regs, but you don't have to update
the work done by anyone else in the past. eg it's fine to add an extra socket on a circuit with rewireable fuses, even though the latter is not up to current regs.
On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 18:41:36 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
wrote:
Just do what 95% of sparkies do, and dont bother with the fused spur.
There really is no need for it.
Or, buy a Greenwood fan, they dont require a 3 amp fuse.
What happens next time work is done at the same premises? I thought
there was a 'last man out' rule making each successive electrician responsible for the entire system - or is responsibility restricted to
the work done by each individual electrician? I have never been sure.
On 03/01/2024 16:07, Tricky Dicky wrote:
One option is to fit a fused spur unit into the incoming feed for the
bathroom but that means all lights beyond that point would now be protected >> by a 3A fuse and the issue is that there are at least 3 ceiling fans in the >> rooms beyond that point.
Just do what 95% of sparkies do, and dont bother with the fused spur.
There really is no need for it.
On 03/01/2024 19:38, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 18:41:36 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
wrote:
Just do what 95% of sparkies do, and dont bother with the fused spur.
There really is no need for it.
Or, buy a Greenwood fan, they dont require a 3 amp fuse.
What happens next time work is done at the same premises? I thought
there was a 'last man out' rule making each successive electrician
responsible for the entire system - or is responsibility restricted to
the work done by each individual electrician? I have never been sure.
Nobody will GAF. There is a good argument that the 3amp fuse is
spurious, so is ignored, as, really, it does nothing, other than allow a
way of local isolation (which is not a requirement of the wiring regs.)
If you go to a house to do work, you are only responsible for the work
you have done, thats why all of the electrical certificates have an
'extent of installation covered by this certificate' box, which you fill
in to show what you have done, e.g. "added fused spur from existing
circuit 2 to supply single socket in hallway".
Fill that in, then you cannot be blamed for the socket falling off with >exposed wires in the bedroom.
On 03/01/2024 18:41, Alan Lee wrote:
On 03/01/2024 16:07, Tricky Dicky wrote:
One option is to fit a fused spur unit into the incoming feed for the
bathroom but that means all lights beyond that point would now be
protected
by a 3A fuse and the issue is that there are at least 3 ceiling fans
in the
rooms beyond that point.
Just do what 95% of sparkies do, and dont bother with the fused spur.
There really is no need for it.
When your house burns down because of a short in the fan leading to a
fire, which would have blown a 3A fuse, you will have to convince your insurance company that the absent fuse would have made no difference
when they refuse to pay out. Good luck with that.
On 04/01/2024 00:00, SteveW wrote:
On 03/01/2024 22:14, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 03/01/2024 18:41, Alan Lee wrote:
On 03/01/2024 16:07, Tricky Dicky wrote:
One option is to fit a fused spur unit into the incoming feed for the >>>>> bathroom but that means all lights beyond that point would now be
protected
by a 3A fuse and the issue is that there are at least 3 ceiling fans >>>>> in the
rooms beyond that point.
Just do what 95% of sparkies do, and dont bother with the fused spur.
There really is no need for it.
When your house burns down because of a short in the fan leading to a
fire, which would have blown a 3A fuse, you will have to convince your
insurance company that the absent fuse would have made no difference
when they refuse to pay out. Good luck with that.
A short would trip the 6A breaker anyway. An overload would be
different, but a ventilation fan, even if stalled, would not overload a
3A fuse.
I'm not talking about stalling, I'm talking about a short somewhere -
whether it's in the motor winding or any control circuitry (timer, PIR, >humidity sensor, etc) doesn't matter.
Sensibly, with such fans being connected to the lighting circuit to be
able to operate with the lights, the requirements should specify that
the fans should be suitable to be on a 6A circuit without additional
protection.
You're missing the point. Insurance companies will use /any/ excuse, no >matter how unlikely, to avoid paying out. I agree the 6A breaker should
trip, but if it doesn't and you haven't got the 3A fuse as a backup,
that's what the insurance company will focus on.
When I had a ceiling fan and light installed in a new conservatory, the >instructions stated that a 3A fused switched spur was required. The >electrician who installed the fan said I didn't need it. I told him to
put it in, and it actually proved quite useful when I had to disconnect
the power to the fan to install a new remote control receiver in it.
On 03/01/2024 22:14, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 03/01/2024 18:41, Alan Lee wrote:
On 03/01/2024 16:07, Tricky Dicky wrote:
One option is to fit a fused spur unit into the incoming feed for the
bathroom but that means all lights beyond that point would now be
protected
by a 3A fuse and the issue is that there are at least 3 ceiling fans
in the
rooms beyond that point.
Just do what 95% of sparkies do, and dont bother with the fused spur.
There really is no need for it.
When your house burns down because of a short in the fan leading to a
fire, which would have blown a 3A fuse, you will have to convince your
insurance company that the absent fuse would have made no difference
when they refuse to pay out. Good luck with that.
A short would trip the 6A breaker anyway. An overload would be
different, but a ventilation fan, even if stalled, would not overload a
3A fuse.
Sensibly, with such fans being connected to the lighting circuit to be
able to operate with the lights, the requirements should specify that
the fans should be suitable to be on a 6A circuit without additional protection.
On 03/01/2024 18:41, Alan Lee wrote:
On 03/01/2024 16:07, Tricky Dicky wrote:
One option is to fit a fused spur unit into the incoming feed for the
bathroom but that means all lights beyond that point would now be protected
by a 3A fuse and the issue is that there are at least 3 ceiling fans in the
rooms beyond that point.
Just do what 95% of sparkies do, and dont bother with the fused spur.
There really is no need for it.
When your house burns down because of a short in the fan leading to a
fire, which would have blown a 3A fuse, you will have to convince your insurance company that the absent fuse would have made no difference
when they refuse to pay out. Good luck with that.
You're missing the point. Insurance companies will use /any/ excuse, no >matter how unlikely, to avoid paying out. I agree the 6A breaker should >trip, but if it doesn't and you haven't got the 3A fuse as a backup,
that's what the insurance company will focus on.
Do you think a technical non-compliance is enough? Don't you think the insurers would need to show (on the balance of probabilities) that the
method of installation materially contributed to the insured event?
Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 03/01/2024 18:41, Alan Lee wrote:On what grounds wouldn't they pay out? They'd surely have to prove
On 03/01/2024 16:07, Tricky Dicky wrote:
One option is to fit a fused spur unit into the incoming feed for the
bathroom but that means all lights beyond that point would now be protected
by a 3A fuse and the issue is that there are at least 3 ceiling fans in the
rooms beyond that point.
Just do what 95% of sparkies do, and dont bother with the fused spur.
There really is no need for it.
When your house burns down because of a short in the fan leading to a
fire, which would have blown a 3A fuse, you will have to convince your
insurance company that the absent fuse would have made no difference
when they refuse to pay out. Good luck with that.
you *intended* the house to burn down as a result of not fitting the
fuse. Otherwise all accidental damage policies would be pointless.
On 03/01/2024 18:41, Alan Lee wrote:
On 03/01/2024 16:07, Tricky Dicky wrote:
One option is to fit a fused spur unit into the incoming feed for the
bathroom but that means all lights beyond that point would now be
protected
by a 3A fuse and the issue is that there are at least 3 ceiling fans
in the
rooms beyond that point.
Just do what 95% of sparkies do, and dont bother with the fused spur.
There really is no need for it.
When your house burns down because of a short in the fan leading to a
fire, which would have blown a 3A fuse, you will have to convince your insurance company that the absent fuse would have made no difference
when they refuse to pay out. Good luck with that.
On 03/01/2024 22:14, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 03/01/2024 18:41, Alan Lee wrote:
On 03/01/2024 16:07, Tricky Dicky wrote:
One option is to fit a fused spur unit into the incoming feed for the
bathroom but that means all lights beyond that point would now be
protected
by a 3A fuse and the issue is that there are at least 3 ceiling fans
in the
rooms beyond that point.
Just do what 95% of sparkies do, and dont bother with the fused spur.
There really is no need for it.
When your house burns down because of a short in the fan leading to a
fire, which would have blown a 3A fuse, you will have to convince your
insurance company that the absent fuse would have made no difference
when they refuse to pay out. Good luck with that.
A short would trip the 6A breaker anyway. An overload would be
different, but a ventilation fan, even if stalled, would not overload a
3A fuse.
Sensibly, with such fans being connected to the lighting circuit to be
able to operate with the lights, the requirements should specify that
the fans should be suitable to be on a 6A circuit without additional protection.
You're missing the point. Insurance companies will use /any/ excuse, no matter how unlikely, to avoid paying out. I agree the 6A breaker shouldBullshit.
trip, bu
On 04/01/2024 08:30, Jeff Layman wrote:
You're missing the point. Insurance companies will use /any/ excuse, noBullshit.
matter how unlikely, to avoid paying out. I agree the 6A breaker should
trip, bu
If a 6A trip failed to trip, the insurance company would sue the >manufacturer.
On 04/01/2024 10:31, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 04/01/2024 08:30, Jeff Layman wrote:
You're missing the point. Insurance companies will use /any/ excuse,Bullshit.
no matter how unlikely, to avoid paying out. I agree the 6A breaker
should trip, bu
If a 6A trip failed to trip, the insurance company would sue the
manufacturer.
Replace 'would' with 'could'. I have never known an insurance company
sue a manufacturer. Also any contract is with the final supplier of the >goods.
Either way, feel free to provide an example of where an "insurance
company would sue the manufacturer". I know you won't be able to as per >typical of your silly claims.
On 04/01/2024 08:30, Jeff Layman wrote:
You're missing the point. Insurance companies will use /any/ excuse,Bullshit.
no matter how unlikely, to avoid paying out. I agree the 6A breaker
should trip, bu
If a 6A trip failed to trip, the insurance company would sue the manufacturer.
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
Even if they did prove this I don't see how it invalidates the
You're missing the point. Insurance companies will use /any/ excuse, no
matter how unlikely, to avoid paying out. I agree the 6A breaker should
trip, but if it doesn't and you haven't got the 3A fuse as a backup,
that's what the insurance company will focus on.
Do you think a technical non-compliance is enough? Don't you think the
insurers would need to show (on the balance of probabilities) that the
method of installation materially contributed to the insured event?
insurance. One's insurance is against one's house burning down, not
against a 'random event' causing one's house to burn down. If I drop
a cigarette on the floor (not that I have ever smoked) and as a result
the house burns down then (following the same sort of logic as about
the fuse) then it's "my fault" for dropping the cigarette and for
having an inflammable carpet and for not having sprinklers installed,
etc. etc.
On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 11:19:47 +0000, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.invalid> wrote:
On 04/01/2024 10:31, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 04/01/2024 08:30, Jeff Layman wrote:
You're missing the point. Insurance companies will use /any/ excuse,Bullshit.
no matter how unlikely, to avoid paying out. I agree the 6A breaker
should trip, bu
If a 6A trip failed to trip, the insurance company would sue the
manufacturer.
Replace 'would' with 'could'. I have never known an insurance company
sue a manufacturer. Also any contract is with the final supplier of the
goods.
Does Donoghue v Stevenson not apply in English law?
Either way, feel free to provide an example of where an "insurance
company would sue the manufacturer". I know you won't be able to as per
typical of your silly claims.
On 04/01/2024 11:53, Scott wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 11:19:47 +0000, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.invalid> wrote:
On 04/01/2024 10:31, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 04/01/2024 08:30, Jeff Layman wrote:
You're missing the point. Insurance companies will use /any/ excuse, >>>>> no matter how unlikely, to avoid paying out. I agree the 6A breakerBullshit.
should trip, bu
If a 6A trip failed to trip, the insurance company would sue the
manufacturer.
Replace 'would' with 'could'. I have never known an insurance company
sue a manufacturer. Also any contract is with the final supplier of the
goods.
Does Donoghue v Stevenson not apply in English law?
Certainly a landmark case.
However, a one-off manufacturing fault with a QA inspection procedure
will not satisfy a claim using a lack of "duty of care" argument.
Either way, feel free to provide an example of where an "insurance
company would sue the manufacturer". I know you won't be able to as per
typical of your silly claims.
So, provide an example for an MCB or similar device.
On 03/01/2024 16:07, Tricky Dicky wrote:
Not an answer, but a suggestion: consider having two pull switches, one
I am fitting a Manrose MF100T ventilation fan in our bathroom. This will
have a 3 pole isolator outside the bathroom and the plan is to run it in
conjunction with the bathroom light so that the fan comes on when the
light
is operated typical of many windowless bathrooms and en-suites in many
modern houses.
The issue is that the manufacturer specify’s a 3A max. fuse for live and >> switched live and of course the lighting circuit is 6A.
One option is to fit a fused spur unit into the incoming feed for the
bathroom but that means all lights beyond that point would now be
protected
by a 3A fuse and the issue is that there are at least 3 ceiling fans
in the
rooms beyond that point.
An alternative is to take 3-core and E cable from the bathroom light as
planned and using two FCU’s
One for live and the other for switched live before running the rest
of the
cable to the 3-pole isolator.
The trouble is that I have not seen this arrangement anywhere. My
daughters
new build has one bathroom, 2 en-suites and a cloakroom/WC all windowless
and all with ventilators activated by the light switch and I know all the
lighting circuits are 6A.
So what to do?
I have a link to a similar fan which unlike the instructions for the
MF100T
has a wiring diagram
https://www.manrose.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/doc/FandWs/496934.pdf
for the fan and one for the light, rather than having the fan always
come on with the light. This means you don't have the fan noise at night
time and you can leave the fan on for a while in the morning after a
vindaloo supper the night before.
On 03/01/2024 16:07, Tricky Dicky wrote:
Not an answer, but a suggestion: consider having two pull switches, one
I am fitting a Manrose MF100T ventilation fan in our bathroom. This will
have a 3 pole isolator outside the bathroom and the plan is to run it in
conjunction with the bathroom light so that the fan comes on when the
light
is operated typical of many windowless bathrooms and en-suites in many
modern houses.
The issue is that the manufacturer specify’s a 3A max. fuse for live and >> switched live and of course the lighting circuit is 6A.
One option is to fit a fused spur unit into the incoming feed for the
bathroom but that means all lights beyond that point would now be
protected
by a 3A fuse and the issue is that there are at least 3 ceiling fans
in the
rooms beyond that point.
An alternative is to take 3-core and E cable from the bathroom light as
planned and using two FCU’s
One for live and the other for switched live before running the rest
of the
cable to the 3-pole isolator.
The trouble is that I have not seen this arrangement anywhere. My
daughters
new build has one bathroom, 2 en-suites and a cloakroom/WC all windowless
and all with ventilators activated by the light switch and I know all the
lighting circuits are 6A.
So what to do?
I have a link to a similar fan which unlike the instructions for the
MF100T
has a wiring diagram
https://www.manrose.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/doc/FandWs/496934.pdf
for the fan and one for the light, rather than having the fan always
come on with the light. This means you don't have the fan noise at night
time and you can leave the fan on for a while in the morning after a
vindaloo supper the night before.
On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 13:55:25 +0000, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.invalid> wrote:
On 04/01/2024 11:53, Scott wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 11:19:47 +0000, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.invalid> wrote:
On 04/01/2024 10:31, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 04/01/2024 08:30, Jeff Layman wrote:
You're missing the point. Insurance companies will use /any/ excuse, >>>>>> no matter how unlikely, to avoid paying out. I agree the 6A breaker >>>>>> should trip, buBullshit.
If a 6A trip failed to trip, the insurance company would sue the
manufacturer.
Replace 'would' with 'could'. I have never known an insurance company
sue a manufacturer. Also any contract is with the final supplier of the >>>> goods.
Does Donoghue v Stevenson not apply in English law?
Certainly a landmark case.
However, a one-off manufacturing fault with a QA inspection procedure
will not satisfy a claim using a lack of "duty of care" argument.
Would this not be one of the facta probanda?
Either way, feel free to provide an example of where an "insurance
company would sue the manufacturer". I know you won't be able to as per >>>> typical of your silly claims.
So, provide an example for an MCB or similar device.
On 04/01/2024 09:33, Chris Green wrote:
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
Even if they did prove this I don't see how it invalidates the
You're missing the point. Insurance companies will use /any/ excuse, no >>>> matter how unlikely, to avoid paying out. I agree the 6A breaker should >>>> trip, but if it doesn't and you haven't got the 3A fuse as a backup,
that's what the insurance company will focus on.
Do you think a technical non-compliance is enough? Don't you think the
insurers would need to show (on the balance of probabilities) that the
method of installation materially contributed to the insured event?
insurance. One's insurance is against one's house burning down, not
against a 'random event' causing one's house to burn down. If I drop
a cigarette on the floor (not that I have ever smoked) and as a result
the house burns down then (following the same sort of logic as about
the fuse) then it's "my fault" for dropping the cigarette and for
having an inflammable carpet and for not having sprinklers installed,
etc. etc.
No, the issue is that you have deliberately ignored an instruction
regarding installation of the fan. You, and others, might not consider
it necessary, but the fan supplier does. All the insurance company have
to do is show that something regarding the policy has not been complied
with. If you don't believe this, have a look at this decision. This did involve a fire, but the reason for the reduced payout by the insurance company (Accelerant) was upheld by the ombudsman: <https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/decision/DRN-4044799.pdf>
It was a commercial policy, which may be different from a household one.
Note this part of the decision:
"Accelerant accepts that the qualifying breach wasn’t deliberate or reckless. In these circumstances, the Act says that the insurer may
reduce proportionately the amount to be paid on a claim."
How much reduced would a payout be where the breach was deliberate or reckless, in other words ignoring an instruction by the fan supplier to include a fuse?
On 04/01/2024 14:18, Scott wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 13:55:25 +0000, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.invalid> wrote:
On 04/01/2024 11:53, Scott wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 11:19:47 +0000, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.invalid> wrote: >>>>
On 04/01/2024 10:31, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 04/01/2024 08:30, Jeff Layman wrote:
You're missing the point. Insurance companies will use /any/ excuse, >>>>>>> no matter how unlikely, to avoid paying out. I agree the 6A breaker >>>>>>> should trip, buBullshit.
If a 6A trip failed to trip, the insurance company would sue the
manufacturer.
Replace 'would' with 'could'. I have never known an insurance company >>>>> sue a manufacturer. Also any contract is with the final supplier of the >>>>> goods.
Does Donoghue v Stevenson not apply in English law?
Certainly a landmark case.
However, a one-off manufacturing fault with a QA inspection procedure
will not satisfy a claim using a lack of "duty of care" argument.
Would this not be one of the facta probanda?
In so far evidence of QA procedure would dismiss such a case.
No, the issue is that you have deliberately ignored an instruction
regarding installation of the fan.
On 04/01/2024 13:44, Jeff Layman wrote:
No, the issue is that you have deliberately ignored an instruction
regarding installation of the fan.
What about when Manufacturers Instructions say 'must be installed by a
NICEIC registered electrician'
I've seen that a number of times.
Thats why the electrical regs had a wording change a few years back, so
such stupid Manufacturers Instructions can be ignored.
On 04/01/2024 09:33, Chris Green wrote:
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
Even if they did prove this I don't see how it invalidates the
You're missing the point. Insurance companies will use /any/ excuse, no >>> matter how unlikely, to avoid paying out. I agree the 6A breaker should >>> trip, but if it doesn't and you haven't got the 3A fuse as a backup,
that's what the insurance company will focus on.
Do you think a technical non-compliance is enough? Don't you think the
insurers would need to show (on the balance of probabilities) that the
method of installation materially contributed to the insured event?
insurance. One's insurance is against one's house burning down, not against a 'random event' causing one's house to burn down. If I drop
a cigarette on the floor (not that I have ever smoked) and as a result
the house burns down then (following the same sort of logic as about
the fuse) then it's "my fault" for dropping the cigarette and for
having an inflammable carpet and for not having sprinklers installed,
etc. etc.
No, the issue is that you have deliberately ignored an instruction
regarding installation of the fan.
On 04/01/2024 13:44, Jeff Layman wrote:
No, the issue is that you have deliberately ignored an instruction
regarding installation of the fan.
What about when Manufacturers Instructions say 'must be installed by a
NICEIC registered electrician'
I've seen that a number of times.
Thats why the electrical regs had a wording change a few years back, so
such stupid Manufacturers Instructions can be ignored.
On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 09:28:07 +0000, Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 03/01/2024 18:41, Alan Lee wrote:On what grounds wouldn't they pay out? They'd surely have to prove
On 03/01/2024 16:07, Tricky Dicky wrote:
One option is to fit a fused spur unit into the incoming feed for the >> >> bathroom but that means all lights beyond that point would now be protected
by a 3A fuse and the issue is that there are at least 3 ceiling fans in the
rooms beyond that point.
Just do what 95% of sparkies do, and dont bother with the fused spur.
There really is no need for it.
When your house burns down because of a short in the fan leading to a
fire, which would have blown a 3A fuse, you will have to convince your
insurance company that the absent fuse would have made no difference
when they refuse to pay out. Good luck with that.
you *intended* the house to burn down as a result of not fitting the
fuse. Otherwise all accidental damage policies would be pointless.
I think gross negligence would suffice. If you leave the keys in your
car, you could hardly argue that you did not intend someone to steal
it.
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 09:28:07 +0000, Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 03/01/2024 18:41, Alan Lee wrote:On what grounds wouldn't they pay out? They'd surely have to prove
On 03/01/2024 16:07, Tricky Dicky wrote:
One option is to fit a fused spur unit into the incoming feed for the >>>>>> bathroom but that means all lights beyond that point would now be protected
by a 3A fuse and the issue is that there are at least 3 ceiling fans in the
rooms beyond that point.
Just do what 95% of sparkies do, and dont bother with the fused spur. >>>>> There really is no need for it.
When your house burns down because of a short in the fan leading to a
fire, which would have blown a 3A fuse, you will have to convince your >>>> insurance company that the absent fuse would have made no difference
when they refuse to pay out. Good luck with that.
you *intended* the house to burn down as a result of not fitting the
fuse. Otherwise all accidental damage policies would be pointless.
I think gross negligence would suffice. If you leave the keys in your
car, you could hardly argue that you did not intend someone to steal
it.
I know of such a case (many years ago), keys left in car, insurance
company tried to wriggle out of paying up but in they end they paid.
I think it was down to the intentions behind leaving the keys in the
car, the claimant said he left them there by mistake and that was
enough to make the claim good.
On 03/01/2024 22:14, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 03/01/2024 18:41, Alan Lee wrote:
On 03/01/2024 16:07, Tricky Dicky wrote:
One option is to fit a fused spur unit into the incoming feed for the
bathroom but that means all lights beyond that point would now be
protected
by a 3A fuse and the issue is that there are at least 3 ceiling fans
in the
rooms beyond that point.
Just do what 95% of sparkies do, and dont bother with the fused spur.
There really is no need for it.
When your house burns down because of a short in the fan leading to a
fire, which would have blown a 3A fuse, you will have to convince your
insurance company that the absent fuse would have made no difference
when they refuse to pay out. Good luck with that.
A short would trip the 6A breaker anyway. An overload would be
different, but a ventilation fan, even if stalled, would not overload a
3A fuse.
Sensibly, with such fans being connected to the lighting circuit to be
able to operate with the lights, the requirements should specify that
the fans should be suitable to be on a 6A circuit without additional protection.
On 04/01/2024 00:00, SteveW wrote:
On 03/01/2024 22:14, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 03/01/2024 18:41, Alan Lee wrote:
On 03/01/2024 16:07, Tricky Dicky wrote:
One option is to fit a fused spur unit into the incoming feed for the >>>>> bathroom but that means all lights beyond that point would now be
protected
by a 3A fuse and the issue is that there are at least 3 ceiling
fans in the
rooms beyond that point.
Just do what 95% of sparkies do, and dont bother with the fused spur.
There really is no need for it.
When your house burns down because of a short in the fan leading to a
fire, which would have blown a 3A fuse, you will have to convince
your insurance company that the absent fuse would have made no
difference when they refuse to pay out. Good luck with that.
A short would trip the 6A breaker anyway. An overload would be
different, but a ventilation fan, even if stalled, would not overload
a 3A fuse.
Sensibly, with such fans being connected to the lighting circuit to be
able to operate with the lights, the requirements should specify that
the fans should be suitable to be on a 6A circuit without additional
protection.
random question....
If the entire lighing circuit is on LED bulbs only and there are no
halogen or tungsten filaments or fluorescents, the load would be much
lower so could one downrate the existing 6A MCB/RCBO down to 3A or do 3A RCBOs/MCBs not exist?
6A seems to be the lowest rated RCBO for my consumer unit.
SteveW wrote:
6A seems to be the lowest rated RCBO for my consumer unit.
Plenty of 1A MCBs and even the occasional 0.5A, but smallest RCBO I can
see is 2A
On 05/01/2024 10:51, Andy Burns wrote:
SteveW wrote:
6A seems to be the lowest rated RCBO for my consumer unit.
Plenty of 1A MCBs and even the occasional 0.5A, but smallest RCBO I
can see is 2A
I have a 5 bedroom house and I have literally just counted the number of bulbs on all of my lighting circuits (I have 4 lighting circuits.)
The one with the most lamps is the ground floor with 55 lamps, all are
LED lamps or LED Strips. All are at 4 to 6 watts.
So lets take the highest wattage bulb and multiply by 55. This gives 330 Watts. There is an extractor fan on the d/stairs toilet fed by this
circuit.
The one with the highest wattage lamps is the outdoor floodlights
circuit and there are 18 floodlamps with wattages ranging from 4 watts
to 20 watts. Lets take the 20 watts figure as worst case and multiply by
18 which gives 350 Watts
A 6A MCB or RCBO supports a continuous current of 1320 Watta at a supply voltage of 220 watts so 6A is cleary more than adequate.
Swapping to a 3A MCB or RCBO would support a continuous current of 660
Watts at a supply voltage of 220 watts which is almost double the the
wattage assuming *all* lamps were all on at the same time. In practie
very few of us actually have *all* the lamps on at the same time.
The main issue with swapping out NCBs/RCBOs/RCDs in a consumer unit is
that it is mandataed somewhere that the consumer unit and the
MCBs/RCBOs/RCDs *should* be from the same manufacturer.
S.
Swapping to a 3A MCB or RCBO would support a continuous current of 660
Watts at a supply voltage of 220 watts which is almost double the the
wattage assuming all lamps were all on at the same time.
On 05/01/2024 11:32, SH wrote:
On 05/01/2024 10:51, Andy Burns wrote:
SteveW wrote:
6A seems to be the lowest rated RCBO for my consumer unit.
Plenty of 1A MCBs and even the occasional 0.5A, but smallest RCBO I
can see is 2A
I have a 5 bedroom house and I have literally just counted the number
of bulbs on all of my lighting circuits (I have 4 lighting circuits.)
The one with the most lamps is the ground floor with 55 lamps, all are
LED lamps or LED Strips. All are at 4 to 6 watts.
So lets take the highest wattage bulb and multiply by 55. This gives
330 Watts. There is an extractor fan on the d/stairs toilet fed by
this circuit.
The one with the highest wattage lamps is the outdoor floodlights
circuit and there are 18 floodlamps with wattages ranging from 4 watts
to 20 watts. Lets take the 20 watts figure as worst case and multiply
by 18 which gives 350 Watts
A 6A MCB or RCBO supports a continuous current of 1320 Watta at a
supply voltage of 220 watts so 6A is cleary more than adequate.
Swapping to a 3A MCB or RCBO would support a continuous current of 660
Watts at a supply voltage of 220 watts which is almost double the the
wattage assuming *all* lamps were all on at the same time. In practie
very few of us actually have *all* the lamps on at the same time.
The main issue with swapping out NCBs/RCBOs/RCDs in a consumer unit is
that it is mandataed somewhere that the consumer unit and the
MCBs/RCBOs/RCDs *should* be from the same manufacturer.
S.
Coming back to the original OP's query,
It strikces me that there is a possible solution but with a Caveat (*)
Put in a dry lining box next to the light fitting.
Transfer the Power Loop in and Power loop Out cables from the existing
light fitting to the new drylining box.
Then wire in some twin and earth cable from the new drylining box and
then fit a FCU to this drylining box so that the bathroom light is now
on its own 3A supply.
It is assumed that the wall switch also runs to the existing rose and
that the 3 core & E is also taken from the existing rose to the isolator switch and thence onwards to the fan.
(*) you will need to pay attention to the special zones of bathrooms
such that (a) the FCU is at a sifficient distance and hieght away from
the bath or shower and (b) with it being a humid atmosphere, humidity
may get inside teh FCU so it might be prudent to use a IP66 rated FCU enclosure OR extend the power loop in, power loop out and the bridging
cable so that teh FCU can be mounted somewhere outside the bathroom.
As a side point, putting a 3A fuse into the Live in for the fan does not offer any protection to the switched live wire.
Although you could put a
2nd fuse into teh Switched live, you then could have an unsafe situation where if a fuse opens, unless one is diligent about opening the fan
isolator switch, one could be working on a fan thinking its completely
dead when in fact either teh permanent Live or switched Live is still Live!
On 04/01/2024 00:00, SteveW wrote:
On 03/01/2024 22:14, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 03/01/2024 18:41, Alan Lee wrote:
On 03/01/2024 16:07, Tricky Dicky wrote:
One option is to fit a fused spur unit into the incoming feed for the >>>>> bathroom but that means all lights beyond that point would now be
protected
by a 3A fuse and the issue is that there are at least 3 ceiling
fans in the
rooms beyond that point.
Just do what 95% of sparkies do, and dont bother with the fused spur.
There really is no need for it.
When your house burns down because of a short in the fan leading to a
fire, which would have blown a 3A fuse, you will have to convince
your insurance company that the absent fuse would have made no
difference when they refuse to pay out. Good luck with that.
A short would trip the 6A breaker anyway. An overload would be
different, but a ventilation fan, even if stalled, would not overload
a 3A fuse.
Sensibly, with such fans being connected to the lighting circuit to be
able to operate with the lights, the requirements should specify that
the fans should be suitable to be on a 6A circuit without additional
protection.
random question....
If the entire lighing circuit is on LED bulbs only and there are no
halogen or tungsten filaments or fluorescents, the load would be much
lower so could one downrate the existing 6A MCB/RCBO down to 3A or do 3A RCBOs/MCBs not exist?
SH wrote:
Swapping to a 3A MCB or RCBO would support a continuous current of 660
Watts at a supply voltage of 220 watts which is almost double the the
wattage assuming all lamps were all on at the same time.
But if you suffered a power cut while they were all on, what sort of
spike would all the PSUs in those LEDs generate?
I am fitting a Manrose MF100T ventilation fan in our bathroom. This will
have a 3 pole isolator outside the bathroom and the plan is to run it in conjunction with the bathroom light so that the fan comes on when the light is operated typical of many windowless bathrooms and en-suites in many
modern houses.
The issue is that the manufacturer specify’s a 3A max. fuse for live and switched live and of course the lighting circuit is 6A.
One option is to fit a fused spur unit into the incoming feed for the bathroom but that means all lights beyond that point would now be protected by a 3A fuse and the issue is that there are at least 3 ceiling fans in the rooms beyond that point.
An alternative is to take 3-core and E cable from the bathroom light as planned and using two FCU’s
One for live and the other for switched live before running the rest of the cable to the 3-pole isolator.
The trouble is that I have not seen this arrangement anywhere. My daughters new build has one bathroom, 2 en-suites and a cloakroom/WC all windowless
and all with ventilators activated by the light switch and I know all the lighting circuits are 6A.
So what to do?
Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
What happens next time work is done at the same premises? I thought
there was a 'last man out' rule making each successive electrician
responsible for the entire system - or is responsibility restricted to
the work done by each individual electrician? I have never been sure.
You have to ensure your own work is to regs, but you don't have to update
the work done by anyone else in the past.
eg it's fine to add an extra
socket on a circuit with rewireable fuses, even though the latter is not up to current regs.
If you were adding a new way in the consumer unit you
couldn't install that with a rewireable fuse,
but you could put it behind an
RCBO if that would fit in the old CU - if not you'd need to change the
board.
Practically speaking you couldn't do it any other way, since J. Random Electrician has no idea what could be lurking in the parts they can't
access. Otherwise you'd have to tear the house apart every time you changed a light fitting.
On 03/01/2024 19:38, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 18:41:36 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
wrote:
Just do what 95% of sparkies do, and dont bother with the fused spur.
There really is no need for it.
Or, buy a Greenwood fan, they dont require a 3 amp fuse.
What happens next time work is done at the same premises? I thought
there was a 'last man out' rule making each successive electrician
responsible for the entire system - or is responsibility restricted to
the work done by each individual electrician? I have never been sure.
Nobody will GAF. There is a good argument that the 3amp fuse is
spurious, so is ignored, as, really, it does nothing, other than allow a
way of local isolation (which is not a requirement of the wiring regs.)
If you go to a house to do work, you are only responsible for the work
you have done, thats why all of the electrical certificates have an
'extent of installation covered by this certificate' box, which you fill
in to show what you have done, e.g. "added fused spur from existing
circuit 2 to supply single socket in hallway".
Fill that in, then you cannot be blamed for the socket falling off with exposed wires in the bedroom.
On 03/01/2024 16:48, nothanks@aolbin.com wrote:
On 03/01/2024 16:07, Tricky Dicky wrote:
Not an answer, but a suggestion: consider having two pull switches,
I am fitting a Manrose MF100T ventilation fan in our bathroom. This will >>> have a 3 pole isolator outside the bathroom and the plan is to run it in >>> conjunction with the bathroom light so that the fan comes on when the
light
is operated typical of many windowless bathrooms and en-suites in many
modern houses.
The issue is that the manufacturer specify’s a 3A max. fuse for live and >>> switched live and of course the lighting circuit is 6A.
One option is to fit a fused spur unit into the incoming feed for the
bathroom but that means all lights beyond that point would now be
protected
by a 3A fuse and the issue is that there are at least 3 ceiling fans
in the
rooms beyond that point.
An alternative is to take 3-core and E cable from the bathroom light as
planned and using two FCU’s
One for live and the other for switched live before running the rest
of the
cable to the 3-pole isolator.
The trouble is that I have not seen this arrangement anywhere. My
daughters
new build has one bathroom, 2 en-suites and a cloakroom/WC all
windowless
and all with ventilators activated by the light switch and I know all
the
lighting circuits are 6A.
So what to do?
I have a link to a similar fan which unlike the instructions for the
MF100T
has a wiring diagram
https://www.manrose.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/doc/FandWs/496934.pdf
one for the fan and one for the light, rather than having the fan
always come on with the light. This means you don't have the fan noise
at night time and you can leave the fan on for a while in the morning
after a vindaloo supper the night before.
A further thought: you could put a 3A fuse inside the fan enclosure if
you wanted a fuse but not an FCU.
On 04/01/2024 14:21, nothanks@aolbin.com wrote:
On 03/01/2024 16:48, nothanks@aolbin.com wrote:
On 03/01/2024 16:07, Tricky Dicky wrote:
Not an answer, but a suggestion: consider having two pull switches,
I am fitting a Manrose MF100T ventilation fan in our bathroom. This
will
have a 3 pole isolator outside the bathroom and the plan is to run
it in
conjunction with the bathroom light so that the fan comes on when
the light
is operated typical of many windowless bathrooms and en-suites in many >>>> modern houses.
The issue is that the manufacturer specify’s a 3A max. fuse for live >>>> and
switched live and of course the lighting circuit is 6A.
One option is to fit a fused spur unit into the incoming feed for the
bathroom but that means all lights beyond that point would now be
protected
by a 3A fuse and the issue is that there are at least 3 ceiling fans
in the
rooms beyond that point.
An alternative is to take 3-core and E cable from the bathroom light as >>>> planned and using two FCU’s
One for live and the other for switched live before running the rest
of the
cable to the 3-pole isolator.
The trouble is that I have not seen this arrangement anywhere. My
daughters
new build has one bathroom, 2 en-suites and a cloakroom/WC all
windowless
and all with ventilators activated by the light switch and I know
all the
lighting circuits are 6A.
So what to do?
I have a link to a similar fan which unlike the instructions for the
MF100T
has a wiring diagram
https://www.manrose.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/doc/FandWs/496934.pdf
one for the fan and one for the light, rather than having the fan
always come on with the light. This means you don't have the fan
noise at night time and you can leave the fan on for a while in the
morning after a vindaloo supper the night before.
A further thought: you could put a 3A fuse inside the fan enclosure if
you wanted a fuse but not an FCU.
That can work, but will be limited to fans with only one live connection.
If it has run on, then you would need a fuse protecting its permanent
live and another one on the switched live. Now you have two fuses in
parallel protecting the same device which is not good in a number of ways.
On 05/01/2024 11:41, SH wrote:
On 05/01/2024 11:32, SH wrote:
On 05/01/2024 10:51, Andy Burns wrote:
SteveW wrote:
6A seems to be the lowest rated RCBO for my consumer unit.
Plenty of 1A MCBs and even the occasional 0.5A, but smallest RCBO I
can see is 2A
I have a 5 bedroom house and I have literally just counted the number
of bulbs on all of my lighting circuits (I have 4 lighting circuits.)
The one with the most lamps is the ground floor with 55 lamps, all are
LED lamps or LED Strips. All are at 4 to 6 watts.
So lets take the highest wattage bulb and multiply by 55. This gives
330 Watts. There is an extractor fan on the d/stairs toilet fed by
this circuit.
The one with the highest wattage lamps is the outdoor floodlights
circuit and there are 18 floodlamps with wattages ranging from 4 watts
to 20 watts. Lets take the 20 watts figure as worst case and multiply
by 18 which gives 350 Watts
A 6A MCB or RCBO supports a continuous current of 1320 Watta at a
supply voltage of 220 watts so 6A is cleary more than adequate.
Swapping to a 3A MCB or RCBO would support a continuous current of 660
Watts at a supply voltage of 220 watts which is almost double the the
wattage assuming *all* lamps were all on at the same time. In practie
very few of us actually have *all* the lamps on at the same time.
The main issue with swapping out NCBs/RCBOs/RCDs in a consumer unit is
that it is mandataed somewhere that the consumer unit and the
MCBs/RCBOs/RCDs *should* be from the same manufacturer.
S.
Coming back to the original OP's query,
It strikces me that there is a possible solution but with a Caveat (*)
Put in a dry lining box next to the light fitting.
Transfer the Power Loop in and Power loop Out cables from the existing
light fitting to the new drylining box.
Then wire in some twin and earth cable from the new drylining box and
then fit a FCU to this drylining box so that the bathroom light is now
on its own 3A supply.
It is assumed that the wall switch also runs to the existing rose and
that the 3 core & E is also taken from the existing rose to the isolator
switch and thence onwards to the fan.
(*) you will need to pay attention to the special zones of bathrooms
such that (a) the FCU is at a sifficient distance and hieght away from
the bath or shower and (b) with it being a humid atmosphere, humidity
may get inside teh FCU so it might be prudent to use a IP66 rated FCU
enclosure OR extend the power loop in, power loop out and the bridging
cable so that teh FCU can be mounted somewhere outside the bathroom.
As a side point, putting a 3A fuse into the Live in for the fan does not
offer any protection to the switched live wire.
The switched live might be a sensor input rather than supplying power. I
note the wiring diagram:
https://www.manrose.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/doc/FandWs/496934.pdf
allows for a fuse in just the live feed.
Nevertheless I still feel that is an issue and would prefer the light
and fan on it's own fuse.
Although you could put a
2nd fuse into teh Switched live, you then could have an unsafe situation
where if a fuse opens, unless one is diligent about opening the fan
isolator switch, one could be working on a fan thinking its completely
dead when in fact either teh permanent Live or switched Live is still Live!
As long as the wires are correctly sleeved, anyone gaining access to the terminals ought to be checking to see if a wire is live and remove power wherever possible.
Fredxx <fredxx@spam.invalid> wrote:
On 05/01/2024 11:41, SH wrote:
On 05/01/2024 11:32, SH wrote:
On 05/01/2024 10:51, Andy Burns wrote:
SteveW wrote:
6A seems to be the lowest rated RCBO for my consumer unit.
Plenty of 1A MCBs and even the occasional 0.5A, but smallest RCBO I
can see is 2A
I have a 5 bedroom house and I have literally just counted the number
of bulbs on all of my lighting circuits (I have 4 lighting circuits.)
The one with the most lamps is the ground floor with 55 lamps, all are >>>> LED lamps or LED Strips. All are at 4 to 6 watts.
So lets take the highest wattage bulb and multiply by 55. This gives
330 Watts. There is an extractor fan on the d/stairs toilet fed by
this circuit.
The one with the highest wattage lamps is the outdoor floodlights
circuit and there are 18 floodlamps with wattages ranging from 4 watts >>>> to 20 watts. Lets take the 20 watts figure as worst case and multiply
by 18 which gives 350 Watts
A 6A MCB or RCBO supports a continuous current of 1320 Watta at a
supply voltage of 220 watts so 6A is cleary more than adequate.
Swapping to a 3A MCB or RCBO would support a continuous current of 660 >>>> Watts at a supply voltage of 220 watts which is almost double the the
wattage assuming *all* lamps were all on at the same time. In practie
very few of us actually have *all* the lamps on at the same time.
The main issue with swapping out NCBs/RCBOs/RCDs in a consumer unit is >>>> that it is mandataed somewhere that the consumer unit and the
MCBs/RCBOs/RCDs *should* be from the same manufacturer.
S.
Coming back to the original OP's query,
It strikces me that there is a possible solution but with a Caveat (*)
Put in a dry lining box next to the light fitting.
Transfer the Power Loop in and Power loop Out cables from the existing
light fitting to the new drylining box.
Then wire in some twin and earth cable from the new drylining box and
then fit a FCU to this drylining box so that the bathroom light is now
on its own 3A supply.
It is assumed that the wall switch also runs to the existing rose and
that the 3 core & E is also taken from the existing rose to the isolator >>> switch and thence onwards to the fan.
(*) you will need to pay attention to the special zones of bathrooms
such that (a) the FCU is at a sifficient distance and hieght away from
the bath or shower and (b) with it being a humid atmosphere, humidity
may get inside teh FCU so it might be prudent to use a IP66 rated FCU
enclosure OR extend the power loop in, power loop out and the bridging
cable so that teh FCU can be mounted somewhere outside the bathroom.
As a side point, putting a 3A fuse into the Live in for the fan does not >>> offer any protection to the switched live wire.
The switched live might be a sensor input rather than supplying power. I
note the wiring diagram:
https://www.manrose.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/doc/FandWs/496934.pdf
allows for a fuse in just the live feed.
Nevertheless I still feel that is an issue and would prefer the light
and fan on it's own fuse.
Although you could put aAs long as the wires are correctly sleeved, anyone gaining access to the
2nd fuse into teh Switched live, you then could have an unsafe situation >>> where if a fuse opens, unless one is diligent about opening the fan
isolator switch, one could be working on a fan thinking its completely
dead when in fact either teh permanent Live or switched Live is still Live! >>
terminals ought to be checking to see if a wire is live and remove power
wherever possible.
Look again the diagram for the timer version shows the switched live tapped off the live connection after the 3A fuse
On 05/01/2024 13:15, John Rumm wrote:
On 04/01/2024 14:21, nothanks@aolbin.com wrote:
On 03/01/2024 16:48, nothanks@aolbin.com wrote:
On 03/01/2024 16:07, Tricky Dicky wrote:
Not an answer, but a suggestion: consider having two pull switches,
I am fitting a Manrose MF100T ventilation fan in our bathroom. This
will
have a 3 pole isolator outside the bathroom and the plan is to run
it in
conjunction with the bathroom light so that the fan comes on when
the light
is operated typical of many windowless bathrooms and en-suites in many >>>>> modern houses.
The issue is that the manufacturer specify’s a 3A max. fuse for
live and
switched live and of course the lighting circuit is 6A.
One option is to fit a fused spur unit into the incoming feed for the >>>>> bathroom but that means all lights beyond that point would now be
protected
by a 3A fuse and the issue is that there are at least 3 ceiling
fans in the
rooms beyond that point.
An alternative is to take 3-core and E cable from the bathroom
light as
planned and using two FCU’s
One for live and the other for switched live before running the
rest of the
cable to the 3-pole isolator.
The trouble is that I have not seen this arrangement anywhere. My
daughters
new build has one bathroom, 2 en-suites and a cloakroom/WC all
windowless
and all with ventilators activated by the light switch and I know
all the
lighting circuits are 6A.
So what to do?
I have a link to a similar fan which unlike the instructions for
the MF100T
has a wiring diagram
https://www.manrose.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/doc/FandWs/496934.pdf
one for the fan and one for the light, rather than having the fan
always come on with the light. This means you don't have the fan
noise at night time and you can leave the fan on for a while in the
morning after a vindaloo supper the night before.
A further thought: you could put a 3A fuse inside the fan enclosure
if you wanted a fuse but not an FCU.
That can work, but will be limited to fans with only one live connection.
If it has run on, then you would need a fuse protecting its permanent
live and another one on the switched live. Now you have two fuses in
parallel protecting the same device which is not good in a number of
ways.
The Manrose install sheet only requires a fuse on the permanent live.
Why the need for two fuses? The switched live can be treated a signal
wire and I presume doesn't supply any current to the fan.
If that is the case there is perhaps no need for the triple isolation
switch?
If the fuse is fan side of the 3-pole isolation switch then it can be changed, or altered, whilst being fully isolated without switching the lighting MCB.
The main issue with swapping out NCBs/RCBOs/RCDs in a consumer unit is
that it is mandataed somewhere that the consumer unit and the
MCBs/RCBOs/RCDs *should* be from the same manufacturer.
On 04/01/2024 14:21, nothanks@aolbin.com wrote:
On 03/01/2024 16:48, nothanks@aolbin.com wrote:
On 03/01/2024 16:07, Tricky Dicky wrote:
Not an answer, but a suggestion: consider having two pull switches,
I am fitting a Manrose MF100T ventilation fan in our bathroom. This
will
have a 3 pole isolator outside the bathroom and the plan is to run
it in
conjunction with the bathroom light so that the fan comes on when
the light
is operated typical of many windowless bathrooms and en-suites in many >>>> modern houses.
The issue is that the manufacturer specify’s a 3A max. fuse for live >>>> and
switched live and of course the lighting circuit is 6A.
One option is to fit a fused spur unit into the incoming feed for the
bathroom but that means all lights beyond that point would now be
protected
by a 3A fuse and the issue is that there are at least 3 ceiling fans
in the
rooms beyond that point.
An alternative is to take 3-core and E cable from the bathroom light as >>>> planned and using two FCU’s
One for live and the other for switched live before running the rest
of the
cable to the 3-pole isolator.
The trouble is that I have not seen this arrangement anywhere. My
daughters
new build has one bathroom, 2 en-suites and a cloakroom/WC all
windowless
and all with ventilators activated by the light switch and I know
all the
lighting circuits are 6A.
So what to do?
I have a link to a similar fan which unlike the instructions for the
MF100T
has a wiring diagram
https://www.manrose.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/doc/FandWs/496934.pdf
one for the fan and one for the light, rather than having the fan
always come on with the light. This means you don't have the fan
noise at night time and you can leave the fan on for a while in the
morning after a vindaloo supper the night before.
A further thought: you could put a 3A fuse inside the fan enclosure if
you wanted a fuse but not an FCU.
That can work, but will be limited to fans with only one live connection.
If it has run on, then you would need a fuse protecting its permanent
live and another one on the switched live. Now you have two fuses in
parallel protecting the same device which is not good in a number of ways.
On 05/01/2024 11:41, SH wrote:
On 05/01/2024 11:32, SH wrote:
On 05/01/2024 10:51, Andy Burns wrote:
SteveW wrote:
6A seems to be the lowest rated RCBO for my consumer unit.
Plenty of 1A MCBs and even the occasional 0.5A, but smallest RCBO I
can see is 2A
I have a 5 bedroom house and I have literally just counted the number
of bulbs on all of my lighting circuits (I have 4 lighting circuits.)
The one with the most lamps is the ground floor with 55 lamps, all
are LED lamps or LED Strips. All are at 4 to 6 watts.
So lets take the highest wattage bulb and multiply by 55. This gives
330 Watts. There is an extractor fan on the d/stairs toilet fed by
this circuit.
The one with the highest wattage lamps is the outdoor floodlights
circuit and there are 18 floodlamps with wattages ranging from 4
watts to 20 watts. Lets take the 20 watts figure as worst case and
multiply by 18 which gives 350 Watts
A 6A MCB or RCBO supports a continuous current of 1320 Watta at a
supply voltage of 220 watts so 6A is cleary more than adequate.
Swapping to a 3A MCB or RCBO would support a continuous current of
660 Watts at a supply voltage of 220 watts which is almost double the
the wattage assuming *all* lamps were all on at the same time. In
practie very few of us actually have *all* the lamps on at the same
time.
The main issue with swapping out NCBs/RCBOs/RCDs in a consumer unit
is that it is mandataed somewhere that the consumer unit and the
MCBs/RCBOs/RCDs *should* be from the same manufacturer.
S.
Coming back to the original OP's query,
It strikces me that there is a possible solution but with a Caveat (*)
Put in a dry lining box next to the light fitting.
Transfer the Power Loop in and Power loop Out cables from the existing
light fitting to the new drylining box.
Then wire in some twin and earth cable from the new drylining box and
then fit a FCU to this drylining box so that the bathroom light is now
on its own 3A supply.
It is assumed that the wall switch also runs to the existing rose and
that the 3 core & E is also taken from the existing rose to the
isolator switch and thence onwards to the fan.
(*) you will need to pay attention to the special zones of bathrooms
such that (a) the FCU is at a sifficient distance and hieght away from
the bath or shower and (b) with it being a humid atmosphere, humidity
may get inside teh FCU so it might be prudent to use a IP66 rated FCU
enclosure OR extend the power loop in, power loop out and the bridging
cable so that teh FCU can be mounted somewhere outside the bathroom.
As a side point, putting a 3A fuse into the Live in for the fan does
not offer any protection to the switched live wire.
The switched live might be a sensor input rather than supplying power. I
note the wiring diagram:
https://www.manrose.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/doc/FandWs/496934.pdf
allows for a fuse in just the live feed.
Nevertheless I still feel that is an issue and would prefer the light
and fan on it's own fuse.
Although you could put a 2nd fuse into teh Switched live, you then
could have an unsafe situation where if a fuse opens, unless one is
diligent about opening the fan isolator switch, one could be working
on a fan thinking its completely dead when in fact either teh
permanent Live or switched Live is still Live!
As long as the wires are correctly sleeved, anyone gaining access to the terminals ought to be checking to see if a wire is live and remove power wherever possible.
On 05/01/2024 15:22, Tricky Dicky wrote:
Fredxx <fredxx@spam.invalid> wrote:
On 05/01/2024 11:41, SH wrote:
On 05/01/2024 11:32, SH wrote:
On 05/01/2024 10:51, Andy Burns wrote:
SteveW wrote:
6A seems to be the lowest rated RCBO for my consumer unit.
Plenty of 1A MCBs and even the occasional 0.5A, but smallest RCBO I >>>>>> can see is 2A
I have a 5 bedroom house and I have literally just counted the number >>>>> of bulbs on all of my lighting circuits (I have 4 lighting circuits.) >>>>>
The one with the most lamps is the ground floor with 55 lamps, all are >>>>> LED lamps or LED Strips. All are at 4 to 6 watts.
So lets take the highest wattage bulb and multiply by 55. This gives >>>>> 330 Watts. There is an extractor fan on the d/stairs toilet fed by
this circuit.
The one with the highest wattage lamps is the outdoor floodlights
circuit and there are 18 floodlamps with wattages ranging from 4 watts >>>>> to 20 watts. Lets take the 20 watts figure as worst case and multiply >>>>> by 18 which gives 350 Watts
A 6A MCB or RCBO supports a continuous current of 1320 Watta at a
supply voltage of 220 watts so 6A is cleary more than adequate.
Swapping to a 3A MCB or RCBO would support a continuous current of 660 >>>>> Watts at a supply voltage of 220 watts which is almost double the the >>>>> wattage assuming *all* lamps were all on at the same time. In practie >>>>> very few of us actually have *all* the lamps on at the same time.
The main issue with swapping out NCBs/RCBOs/RCDs in a consumer unit is >>>>> that it is mandataed somewhere that the consumer unit and the
MCBs/RCBOs/RCDs *should* be from the same manufacturer.
S.
Coming back to the original OP's query,
It strikces me that there is a possible solution but with a Caveat (*) >>>>
Put in a dry lining box next to the light fitting.
Transfer the Power Loop in and Power loop Out cables from the existing >>>> light fitting to the new drylining box.
Then wire in some twin and earth cable from the new drylining box and
then fit a FCU to this drylining box so that the bathroom light is now >>>> on its own 3A supply.
It is assumed that the wall switch also runs to the existing rose and
that the 3 core & E is also taken from the existing rose to the
isolator
switch and thence onwards to the fan.
(*) you will need to pay attention to the special zones of bathrooms
such that (a) the FCU is at a sifficient distance and hieght away from >>>> the bath or shower and (b) with it being a humid atmosphere, humidity
may get inside teh FCU so it might be prudent to use a IP66 rated FCU
enclosure OR extend the power loop in, power loop out and the bridging >>>> cable so that teh FCU can be mounted somewhere outside the bathroom.
As a side point, putting a 3A fuse into the Live in for the fan does
not
offer any protection to the switched live wire.
The switched live might be a sensor input rather than supplying power. I >>> note the wiring diagram:
https://www.manrose.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/doc/FandWs/496934.pdf
allows for a fuse in just the live feed.
Nevertheless I still feel that is an issue and would prefer the light
and fan on it's own fuse.
Although you could put a
2nd fuse into teh Switched live, you then could have an unsafe
situation
where if a fuse opens, unless one is diligent about opening the fan
isolator switch, one could be working on a fan thinking its completely >>>> dead when in fact either teh permanent Live or switched Live is
still Live!
As long as the wires are correctly sleeved, anyone gaining access to the >>> terminals ought to be checking to see if a wire is live and remove power >>> wherever possible.
Look again the diagram for the timer version shows the switched live
tapped
off the live connection after the 3A fuse
Fig 3 assumes you dont have power loop in and power loop out at the
lighting rose....
The circuit digram would be more complex once the power loop in and
power loop out is added....
That was my thought too. Some 3A MCBs do exist but relatively
rare.I would have thought the fan would have it's own internal
fuse, even a non-replaceable one.
All the faulty mains bathroom fans that I have examined have had a
thermal fuse buried in the winding. I have concluded that it's a
requirment.
That was my thought too. Some 3A MCBs do exist but relatively
rare.I would have thought the fan would have it's own internal
fuse, even a non-replaceable one.
On 05/01/2024 15:33, SH wrote:
On 05/01/2024 15:22, Tricky Dicky wrote:
Fredxx <fredxx@spam.invalid> wrote:
On 05/01/2024 11:41, SH wrote:
On 05/01/2024 11:32, SH wrote:
On 05/01/2024 10:51, Andy Burns wrote:
SteveW wrote:
6A seems to be the lowest rated RCBO for my consumer unit.
Plenty of 1A MCBs and even the occasional 0.5A, but smallest RCBO I >>>>>>> can see is 2A
I have a 5 bedroom house and I have literally just counted the number >>>>>> of bulbs on all of my lighting circuits (I have 4 lighting circuits.) >>>>>>
The one with the most lamps is the ground floor with 55 lamps, all >>>>>> are
LED lamps or LED Strips. All are at 4 to 6 watts.
So lets take the highest wattage bulb and multiply by 55. This gives >>>>>> 330 Watts. There is an extractor fan on the d/stairs toilet fed by >>>>>> this circuit.
The one with the highest wattage lamps is the outdoor floodlights
circuit and there are 18 floodlamps with wattages ranging from 4
watts
to 20 watts. Lets take the 20 watts figure as worst case and multiply >>>>>> by 18 which gives 350 Watts
A 6A MCB or RCBO supports a continuous current of 1320 Watta at a
supply voltage of 220 watts so 6A is cleary more than adequate.
Swapping to a 3A MCB or RCBO would support a continuous current of >>>>>> 660
Watts at a supply voltage of 220 watts which is almost double the the >>>>>> wattage assuming *all* lamps were all on at the same time. In practie >>>>>> very few of us actually have *all* the lamps on at the same time.
The main issue with swapping out NCBs/RCBOs/RCDs in a consumer
unit is
that it is mandataed somewhere that the consumer unit and the
MCBs/RCBOs/RCDs *should* be from the same manufacturer.
S.
Coming back to the original OP's query,
It strikces me that there is a possible solution but with a Caveat (*) >>>>>
Put in a dry lining box next to the light fitting.
Transfer the Power Loop in and Power loop Out cables from the existing >>>>> light fitting to the new drylining box.
Then wire in some twin and earth cable from the new drylining box and >>>>> then fit a FCU to this drylining box so that the bathroom light is now >>>>> on its own 3A supply.
It is assumed that the wall switch also runs to the existing rose and >>>>> that the 3 core & E is also taken from the existing rose to the
isolator
switch and thence onwards to the fan.
(*) you will need to pay attention to the special zones of bathrooms >>>>> such that (a) the FCU is at a sifficient distance and hieght away from >>>>> the bath or shower and (b) with it being a humid atmosphere, humidity >>>>> may get inside teh FCU so it might be prudent to use a IP66 rated FCU >>>>> enclosure OR extend the power loop in, power loop out and the bridging >>>>> cable so that teh FCU can be mounted somewhere outside the bathroom. >>>>>
As a side point, putting a 3A fuse into the Live in for the fan
does not
offer any protection to the switched live wire.
The switched live might be a sensor input rather than supplying
power. I
note the wiring diagram:
https://www.manrose.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/doc/FandWs/496934.pdf >>>> allows for a fuse in just the live feed.
Nevertheless I still feel that is an issue and would prefer the light
and fan on it's own fuse.
Although you could put a
2nd fuse into teh Switched live, you then could have an unsafe
situation
where if a fuse opens, unless one is diligent about opening the fan
isolator switch, one could be working on a fan thinking its completely >>>>> dead when in fact either teh permanent Live or switched Live is
still Live!
As long as the wires are correctly sleeved, anyone gaining access to
the
terminals ought to be checking to see if a wire is live and remove
power
wherever possible.
Look again the diagram for the timer version shows the switched live
tapped
off the live connection after the 3A fuse
Fig 3 assumes you dont have power loop in and power loop out at the
lighting rose....
The circuit digram would be more complex once the power loop in and
power loop out is added....
Here is what you need with loop in wiring:
https://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Extractor_fan_wiring#Simplified_Schematic_Version
That can all be done from a ceiling rose with one additional terminal required:
https://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/f/f3/CeilingRoseFusedFanConnection.png
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