Can anyone point to a UK source of reliable, genuinely new, moderately
priced non-shingled laptop drives from about 500GB to 1.5TB?
Of course, I could skip the shingles problem by going for an SSD, but
have not really explored this up til now. Experience and thoughts on
that would be welcome too.
Please excuse the Linux/Windows crosspost, this is a question about HD hardware relevant to both OSs!
I have a Dell Precision M6300 that is slowing down really badly, and I suspect, but have yet to prove, that the HD is failing.
Can anyone point to a UK source of reliable, genuinely new, moderately
priced non-shingled laptop drives from about 500GB to 1.5TB?
I could skip the shingles problem by going for an SSD, but have not
really explored this up til now.
I don't recommend QVO as it wears out faster.
Java Jive wrote:
I could skip the shingles problem by going for an SSD, but have not
really explored this up til now.
I wouldn't fit anything other than an SSD to a laptop, seriously.
On 06/04/2023 17:11, J.O. Aho wrote:
I don't recommend QVO as it wears out faster.
How fast? 5 years, 4 years, 3 years or just 6 months?
For most people if a hard disk lasts for 5 years then they have done
very well indeed. I have a HDD that has lasted for nearly 10 years but I
am not a 24/7 user of the machine. I switch on the machine once in the evening, check the email in my private account, browse the web to see
what is in the news and that's all about it. It is then time to go to
bed after dinner to wake up in the morning to go to work.
Do you have a link where it says QVO is no better than EVO or is it just
your anecdotal experience of using different versions over the years.
On 06/04/2023 17:11, J.O. Aho wrote:
I don't recommend QVO as it wears out faster.
How fast? 5 years, 4 years, 3 years or just 6 months?
For most people if a hard disk lasts for 5 years then they have done
very well indeed. I have a HDD that has lasted for nearly 10 years but I
am not a 24/7 user of the machine. I switch on the machine once in the evening, check the email in my private account, browse the web to see
what is in the news and that's all about it. It is then time to go to
bed after dinner to wake up in the morning to go to work.
Do you have a link where it says QVO is no better than EVO or is it just
your anecdotal experience of using different versions over the years.
Thank you for the info anyway.
Please excuse the Linux/Windows crosspost, this is a question about HD hardware relevant to both OSs!
I have a Dell Precision M6300 that is slowing down really badly, and I suspect, but have yet to prove, that the HD is failing.
It seems to be getting increasingly difficult to obtain non-shingled replacement laptop drives. Samsung have sold out to Seagate, andGo for an SSD, don't hesitate. Till 1TB at least the prices are reasonable.
seemingly now most or all Seagate and Western Digital laptop drives are
SMR ...
Apparently the only non-shingled laptop drives currently made by Seagate
are Exos E, and v. expensive:
https://www.seagate.com/gb/en/products/cmr-smr-list/ https://www.ebuyer.com/store/Storage/cat/Hard-Drive---Internal?a00489=2.5%22&q=exos
Up-to-date information on WD drives seems irresponsibly hard to come by.
 After the public backlash around 2020, lists were published then of
which WD drives were SMR ...
https://blog.westerndigital.com/wd-red-nas-drives/
... but that was 3 years ago and I've not found anything more up to date
and official from the WD site. Also, most independent lists are quite
old, dating from the time the scandal first broke, and/or are compiled
by NAS sites for desktop drives.
Of course, one could buy an older model drive very cheaply, but, even
when they have good ratings, at least some of the stock, even when new
- as in genuinely unused - have been on the shelf for so long that
they are already beyond manufacturer warranty, but, far too frequently,
are suspected items previously returned as faulty being resold, or just
plain second-hand/used and 'refurbished', whatever that may mean for an
item that has 'no user serviceable parts inside':
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Western-Digital-AV-GP-Intellipower-Internal-disk-disc-storage-gigabyte/product-reviews/B002P3KO7O/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_viewpnt_rgt?ie=UTF8&reviewerType=all_reviews&filterByStar=critical&pageNumber=1
Of course, that is a deliberately biased sample by looking at the
critical reviews, but I find them a useful measure of "What's the worst
that can happen?!"
Can anyone point to a UK source of reliable, genuinely new, moderately
priced non-shingled laptop drives from about 500GB to 1.5TB?
Of course, I could skip the shingles problem by going for an SSD, but
have not really explored this up til now. Experience and thoughts on
that would be welcome too.
On 2023-04-06 17:02, Java Jive wrote:
Please excuse the Linux/Windows crosspost, this is a question about HD
hardware relevant to both OSs!
I have a Dell Precision M6300 that is slowing down really badly, and I
suspect, but have yet to prove, that the HD is failing.
At least in Linux, this is easy to check. Assuming the drive is
/dev/sda, do, as root:
smartctl -a /dev/sda
Check these two lines:
ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME FLAG VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE UPDATED WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE
SSDs are actually more robust than traditional disks, they don't mind vibrations, and are nicer on the battery.
On Thu, 06 Apr 2023 17:22:03 -0400, Carlos E.R.Yes, I suppose there were bad designs while the technology matured.
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
SSDs are actually more robust than traditional disks, they don't mind
vibrations, and are nicer on the battery.
I did have a problem with one laptop when I tried replacing it's hard drive with an ssd. Massive overheating during large writes (linux install)
forcing
a system shutdown part way through. Put the old hard drive back in and
it was
fine.
I ended up adding that ssd drive in my desktop system with a fan.
hddtemp for it shows ...
/dev/sdd: INTEL SSDSC2BW240A4:Â no sensor
It does get very hot to the touch even with the fan.
Other laptops I've put other ssd drives have been fine.
On Thu, 6 Apr 2023 23:22:03 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-06 17:02, Java Jive wrote:I like to keep an eye on disk ages and potential problems, so I have a
Please excuse the Linux/Windows crosspost, this is a question about HD
hardware relevant to both OSs!
I have a Dell Precision M6300 that is slowing down really badly, and I
suspect, but have yet to prove, that the HD is failing.
At least in Linux, this is easy to check. Assuming the drive is
/dev/sda, do, as root:
smartctl -a /dev/sda
Check these two lines:
ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME FLAG VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE UPDATED
WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE
weekly cronjob that runs smartctl and emails me the report it produces.
PC                                Time to: GRUB/OS Load Win Logon
P1 8GB @ 2.8GHz - Dual-boot Ubuntu 18 & W7:Â 0:12Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 0:24 later
P2 4GB @ 2.6GHz - Dual-boot Ubuntu 18 & XP:Â 0:31-1:00+Â Â Â 0:19+ later
P3 4GB @ 2.2GHz - XP:Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 0:08Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 0:06 later
Please excuse the Linux/Windows crosspost, this is a question about HD hardware relevant to both OSs!
I have a Dell Precision M6300 that is slowing down really badly, and I suspect, but have yet to prove, that the HD is failing.
Of course, I could skip the shingles problem by going for an SSD, but
have not really explored this up til now. Experience and thoughts on
that would be welcome too.
On 06/04/2023 16:02, Java Jive wrote:
-- Disk List
---------------------------------------------------------------
 (01) TOSHIBA MQ01ABD050V : 500.1 GB [0/1/0, pd1]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 (01) TOSHIBA MQ01ABD050V ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
          Model : TOSHIBA MQ01ABD050V
       Firmware : AX0G1Q
  Serial Number : 43PDW013T
      Disk Size : 500.1 GB (8.4/137.4/500.1/500.1)
    Buffer Size : 16384 KB
    Queue Depth : 32
   # of Sectors : 976773168
  Rotation Rate : 5400 RPM
      Interface : Serial ATA
  Major Version : ATA8-ACS
  Minor Version : ----
  Transfer Mode : SATA/300 | SATA/300
 Power On Hours : 19576 hours
 Power On Count : 63735 count
    Temperature : 34 C (93 F)
  Health Status : Good
       Features : S.M.A.R.T., APM, NCQ, GPL
      APM Level : 00FEh [OFF]
      AAM Level : ----
   Drive Letter : C: D:
-- S.M.A.R.T.
--------------------------------------------------------------
ID Cur Wor Thr RawValues(6) Attribute Name
01 100 100 _50 000000000000 Read Error Rate
02 100 100 _50 000000000000 Throughput Performance
03 100 100 __1 000000000435 Spin-Up Time
04 100 100 __0 0000000101FA Start/Stop Count
05 100 100 _50 000000000000 Reallocated Sectors Count
07 100 100 _50 000000000000 Seek Error Rate
08 100 100 _50 000000000000 Seek Time Performance
09 _52 _52 __0 000000004C78 Power-On Hours
0A 253 100 _30 000000000000 Spin Retry Count
0C 100 100 __0 00000000F8F7 Power Cycle Count
BF 100 100 __0 00000000003A G-Sense Error Rate
C0 __1 __1 __0 00000000EB0F Power-off Retract Count
C1 _94 _94 __0 00000001022B Load/Unload Cycle Count
C2 100 100 __0 003300070022 Temperature
C4 100 100 __0 000000000000 Reallocation Event Count
C5 100 100 __0 000000000000 Current Pending Sector Count
C6 100 100 __0 000000000000 Uncorrectable Sector Count
C7 200 200 __0 000000000000 UltraDMA CRC Error Count
DC 100 100 __0 000000000000 Disk Shift
DE _52 _52 __0 000000004B85 Loaded Hours
DF 100 100 __0 000000000000 Load/Unload Retry Count
E0 100 100 __0 000000000000 Load Friction
E2 100 100 __0 0000000000B6 Load 'In'-time
F0 100 100 __1 000000000000 Head Flying Hours
On 06/04/2023 17:11, J.O. Aho wrote:
I don't recommend QVO as it wears out faster.
How fast? 5 years, 4 years, 3 years or just 6 months?
For most people if a hard disk lasts for 5 years then they have done
very well indeed.
On 2023-04-06 17:02, Java Jive wrote:
Please excuse the Linux/Windows crosspost, this is a question about
HD hardware relevant to both OSs!
I have a Dell Precision M6300 that is slowing down really badly,
and I suspect, but have yet to prove, that the HD is failing.
At least in Linux, this is easy to check. Assuming the drive is
/dev/sda, do, as root:
smartctl -a /dev/sda
Check these two lines:
ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME FLAG VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE
UPDATED WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE
197 Current_Pending_Sector 0x0012 100 100 000 Old_age
Always
- 0
198 Offline_Uncorrectable 0x0010 100 100 000 Old_age
Offline - 0
If the last column is not zero, you have a problem. Then look at this
other line:
5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct 0x0033 100 100 010 Pre-fail
Always - 0
If the two "100" are not 100, that's bad, the disk is dying. Replace
it.
It seems to be getting increasingly difficult to obtain
non-shingled replacement laptop drives. Samsung have sold out to
Seagate, and seemingly now most or all Seagate and Western Digital
laptop drives are SMR ...
Apparently the only non-shingled laptop drives currently made by
Seagate are Exos E, and v. expensive:
https://www.seagate.com/gb/en/products/cmr-smr-list/ https://www.ebuyer.com/store/Storage/cat/Hard-Drive---Internal?a00489=2.5%22&q=exos
Up-to-date information on WD drives seems irresponsibly hard to
come by. After the public backlash around 2020, lists were
published then of which WD drives were SMR ...
https://blog.westerndigital.com/wd-red-nas-drives/
... but that was 3 years ago and I've not found anything more up to
date and official from the WD site. Also, most independent lists
are quite old, dating from the time the scandal first broke, and/or
are compiled by NAS sites for desktop drives.
Of course, one could buy an older model drive very cheaply, but,
even when they have good ratings, at least some of the stock, even
when new
- as in genuinely unused - have been on the shelf for so long
that they are already beyond manufacturer warranty, but, far too frequently, are suspected items previously returned as faulty being
resold, or just plain second-hand/used and 'refurbished', whatever
that may mean for an item that has 'no user serviceable parts
inside':
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Western-Digital-AV-GP-Intellipower-Internal-disk-disc-storage-gigabyte/product-reviews/B002P3KO7O/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_viewpnt_rgt?ie=UTF8&reviewerType=all_reviews&filterByStar=critical&pageNumber=1
Of course, that is a deliberately biased sample by looking at the
critical reviews, but I find them a useful measure of "What's the
worst that can happen?!"
Can anyone point to a UK source of reliable, genuinely new,
moderately priced non-shingled laptop drives from about 500GB to
1.5TB?
Of course, I could skip the shingles problem by going for an SSD,Go for an SSD, don't hesitate. Till 1TB at least the prices are
but have not really explored this up til now. Experience and
thoughts on that would be welcome too.
reasonable.
I saw some laptops that had both SSD and rotating rust.
SSDs are actually more robust than traditional disks, they don't mind vibrations, and are nicer on the battery.
On 2023-04-07 01:17, Java Jive wrote:
-- Disk List
---------------------------------------------------------------
  (01) TOSHIBA MQ01ABD050V : 500.1 GB [0/1/0, pd1]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>
  (01) TOSHIBA MQ01ABD050V
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>
           Model : TOSHIBA MQ01ABD050V
        Firmware : AX0G1Q
   Serial Number : 43PDW013T
       Disk Size : 500.1 GB (8.4/137.4/500.1/500.1)
     Buffer Size : 16384 KB
     Queue Depth : 32
    # of Sectors : 976773168
   Rotation Rate : 5400 RPM
       Interface : Serial ATA
   Major Version : ATA8-ACS
   Minor Version : ----
   Transfer Mode : SATA/300 | SATA/300
  Power On Hours : 19576 hours
  Power On Count : 63735 count
     Temperature : 34 C (93 F)
   Health Status : Good
        Features : S.M.A.R.T., APM, NCQ, GPL
       APM Level : 00FEh [OFF]
       AAM Level : ----
    Drive Letter : C: D:
-- S.M.A.R.T.
--------------------------------------------------------------
ID Cur Wor Thr RawValues(6) Attribute Name
01 100 100 _50 000000000000 Read Error Rate
02 100 100 _50 000000000000 Throughput Performance
03 100 100 __1 000000000435 Spin-Up Time
04 100 100 __0 0000000101FA Start/Stop Count
05 100 100 _50 000000000000 Reallocated Sectors Count
07 100 100 _50 000000000000 Seek Error Rate
08 100 100 _50 000000000000 Seek Time Performance
09 _52 _52 __0 000000004C78 Power-On Hours
0A 253 100 _30 000000000000 Spin Retry Count
0C 100 100 __0 00000000F8F7 Power Cycle Count
BF 100 100 __0 00000000003A G-Sense Error Rate
C0 __1 __1 __0 00000000EB0F Power-off Retract Count
C1 _94 _94 __0 00000001022B Load/Unload Cycle Count
C2 100 100 __0 003300070022 Temperature
C4 100 100 __0 000000000000 Reallocation Event Count
C5 100 100 __0 000000000000 Current Pending Sector Count
C6 100 100 __0 000000000000 Uncorrectable Sector Count
C7 200 200 __0 000000000000 UltraDMA CRC Error Count
DC 100 100 __0 000000000000 Disk Shift
DE _52 _52 __0 000000004B85 Loaded Hours
DF 100 100 __0 000000000000 Load/Unload Retry Count
E0 100 100 __0 000000000000 Load Friction
E2 100 100 __0 0000000000B6 Load 'In'-time
F0 100 100 __1 000000000000 Head Flying Hours
I don't see anything wrong in this disk.
On 4/6/23 19:53, Jim Kelly wrote:, that already hints that Samsung expects the qvo to have shorter lifespan than the evo, sure this number don't mean that all qvo will just last 3 years + 1 day or 360TB + 1B.
On 06/04/2023 17:11, J.O. Aho wrote:
I don't recommend QVO as it wears out faster.
How fast? 5 years, 4 years, 3 years or just 6 months?
Time depends on how much you write to the disk, this includes the resizing of the paging file that windows does quite frequently in the background. You can look at the product warranty for the 1T evo 600 TBW (Max 5 years) vs 1T qvo 360 TBW (Max 3 years)
On Thu, 06 Apr 2023 17:22:03 -0400, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
SSDs are actually more robust than traditional disks, they don't mind
vibrations, and are nicer on the battery.
I did have a problem with one laptop when I tried replacing it's hard drive with an ssd. Massive overheating during large writes (linux install) forcing a system shutdown part way through. Put the old hard drive back in and it was fine.
I ended up adding that ssd drive in my desktop system with a fan.
hddtemp for it shows ...
/dev/sdd: INTEL SSDSC2BW240A4:Â no sensor
It does get very hot to the touch even with the fan.
Other laptops I've put other ssd drives have been fine.
Regards, Dave Hodgins
On 07/04/2023 00:17, Java Jive wrote:
PC                                Time to: GRUB/OS Load Win Logon
P1 8GB @ 2.8GHz - Dual-boot Ubuntu 18 & W7:Â 0:12Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 0:24 later
P2 4GB @ 2.6GHz - Dual-boot Ubuntu 18 & XP:Â 0:31-1:00+Â Â Â 0:19+ later >> P3 4GB @ 2.2GHz - XP:Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 0:08Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 0:06 later
Perhaps I should have explained that these are times for each PC to get to the logon screen from a state of hibernation, in other words, from no power being consumed through reloading the previous state to displaying the logon screen.
On 4/6/2023 6:10 PM, David W. Hodgins wrote:
On Thu, 06 Apr 2023 17:22:03 -0400, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
SSDs are actually more robust than traditional disks, they don't mind
vibrations, and are nicer on the battery.
I did have a problem with one laptop when I tried replacing it's hard drive >> with an ssd. Massive overheating during large writes (linux install) forcing >> a system shutdown part way through. Put the old hard drive back in and it was
fine.
I ended up adding that ssd drive in my desktop system with a fan.
hddtemp for it shows ...
/dev/sdd: INTEL SSDSC2BW240A4: no sensor
It does get very hot to the touch even with the fan.
Other laptops I've put other ssd drives have been fine.
Regards, Dave Hodgins
https://ssd.userbenchmark.com/SpeedTest/3104/INTEL-SSDSC2BW240A4
Controller: LSI SandForce SF2281. <=== ding! ding! ding!
That's the SandForce data compressor, on writes.
Drive shoots up to 7W consumption spikes, during compression.
There aren't many compression methods, that can compress
in real time at 500MB/sec. And that's what the SandForce was doing.
And I thought only Kingston, used them.
SandForce were more common in the first generation, when there were
more of the smaller manufacturers (like maybe OCZ). But after that,
it was mostly Kingston that seemed to use them.
The other controllers don't do compression, or we'd have tales
of excess consumption for them too.
When you mentioned Intel, at first I thought the drive might
be Optane, but no, it's just Sandforce as root cause.
I would recommend a SSD, no point in going for a HDD unless you need it
for large scale storage 2TB+
Jim Kelly <invalid@invalid.net> wrote:
On 06/04/2023 17:11, J.O. Aho wrote:
I don't recommend QVO as it wears out faster.
How fast? 5 years, 4 years, 3 years or just 6 months?
For most people if a hard disk lasts for 5 years then they have done
very well indeed.
In 30 years or more of PC ownership
I think I have only had one or two
disk drives fail,
they mostly just get pensioned off when disk sizes
are such that the space the old drives have is not worth bothering
with.
On Fri, 7 Apr 2023 08:19:48 +0100, Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
Jim Kelly <invalid@invalid.net> wrote:
On 06/04/2023 17:11, J.O. Aho wrote:
I don't recommend QVO as it wears out faster.
How fast? 5 years, 4 years, 3 years or just 6 months?
For most people if a hard disk lasts for 5 years then they have done
very well indeed.
In 30 years or more of PC ownership
37 years for me.
I think I have only had one or two
disk drives fail,
Zero failures for me.
On a hard drive, the outer circumference offers better rates than the
hub does, which is why the benchmark curve gently declines to half-rate.
When you see stairsteps in the bench curve, that is "zoned recording",
and the formatting of the tracks changes from one part of the disk
to another, on purpose. The stair steps then, are normal, and part of
design.
On 06/04/2023 16:02, Java Jive wrote:
Please excuse the Linux/Windows crosspost, this is a question about HD
hardware relevant to both OSs!
Thanks for all the replies, all of which I've read and noted.
I have a Dell Precision M6300 that is slowing down really badly, and I
suspect, but have yet to prove, that the HD is failing.
This afternoon I got around to testing the HD with CrystalMark, which
gives it a Health Status of Good, though I wonder at what the columns actually mean, in particular:
ID Attribute Name            Current Worst Threshold Raw Values
05 Reallocated Sectors Count 100     100   50        All zeros
0A Spin Retry Count          253     100   30        All zeros
The full log is appended.
On 07/04/2023 00:17, Java Jive wrote:The fan spins up alright, but the system board cannot sense its speed, so perhaps the system is slowing down the CPU to keep things cool?
On 06/04/2023 16:02, Java Jive wrote:
Please excuse the Linux/Windows crosspost, this is a question about HD hardware relevant to both OSs!
Thanks for all the replies, all of which I've read and noted.
I have a Dell Precision M6300 that is slowing down really badly, and I suspect, but have yet to prove, that the HD is failing.
This afternoon I got around to testing the HD with CrystalMark, which gives it a Health Status of Good, though I wonder at what the columns actually mean, in particular:
ID Attribute Name            Current Worst Threshold Raw Values
05 Reallocated Sectors Count 100     100   50        All zeros
0A Spin Retry Count          253     100   30        All zeros
The full log is appended.
It's not the disk. I tried swapping in P3's disk and the long delay between the POST screen and beginning to load anything, XP in that case, was still there.
The other test I've done today is run Dell's own diagnostics on it, which took a very long time. Like CrystalMark, no fault was found with the disk. The only thing thrown up that might be significant is that the CPU fan speed is not being detected.Â
At any rate, given the disk is fine, I see no particular need to replace it yet, and I'll probably have to leave this now until I have less work on, but thanks for all the helpful comments.
Also, I'm still interested in SDDs for other reasons, probably a 1 &/or 2TB. Two particular models have been discussed, a Samsung 860 EVO 1TB & the QVO equivalent. Any others that have given people good service?
On 2023-04-07 14:46, Paul wrote:
On a hard drive, the outer circumference offers better rates than the
hub does, which is why the benchmark curve gently declines to half-rate.
When you see stairsteps in the bench curve, that is "zoned recording",
and the formatting of the tracks changes from one part of the disk
to another, on purpose. The stair steps then, are normal, and part of
design.
Once I did a brute force test of a new disk. I made a lot of partitions, say 50. Then tested speed on each of them (probably using different filesystems, too). I think I used "hdparm -tT /dev/sdXY", maybe some dd read/write.
It turned out that the disk was significantly faster at about 1/3 of the way. The centre was significantly slower.
Of course, the disk might be lying about its geometry.
The only thing thrown up that might be significant is that the CPU fan
speed is not being detected. The fan spins up alright,
The only thing thrown up that might be significant is that the CPU fan speed is not being detected.Fan speed is typically done with a three wire fan, and
255 Overflow Report zero, but fan RPM is actually < RPM_min limit of SuperIO.Fan is spinning, but SW makes no distinction for "1199 RPM" case.
Java Jive wrote:
The only thing thrown up that might be significant is that the CPU fan
speed is not being detected. The fan spins up alright,
I was going to ask id the vents are full of fluff, but presumably you'd
have noticed if you can see the fan spinning?
On 2023-04-07 23:38, Java Jive wrote:
On 07/04/2023 00:17, Java Jive wrote:
On 06/04/2023 16:02, Java Jive wrote:
 The fan spins up alright, but the system board cannot sense its speed, so perhaps the system is slowing down the CPU to keep things cool?
It's not the disk. I tried swapping in P3's disk and the long delay between the POST screen and beginning to load anything, XP in that case, was still there.
The other test I've done today is run Dell's own diagnostics on it, which took a very long time. Like CrystalMark, no fault was found with the disk. The only thing thrown up that might be significant is that the CPU fan speed is not being detected.
That would be weird. A computer can indeed slow the CPU if it is hot, but the fan speed should not matter.
Indeed, I have noticed in seemingly powerful, fanless laptopts and mini pcs, that they start a a heavy cpu task at full speed, and after half a minute they slow down because the CPU can not evacuate the heat at that pace.
The machines are good for desktop use, where they respond fast to user actions on a document, but not if the task is long.
Which is fine, if you know that design choice.
On 07/04/2023 00:17, Java Jive wrote:
On 06/04/2023 16:02, Java Jive wrote:
It's not the disk. I tried swapping in P3's disk and the long delay
between the POST screen and beginning to load anything, XP in that case,
was still there.
The other test I've done today is run Dell's own diagnostics on it,
which took a very long time. Like CrystalMark, no fault was found with
the disk. The only thing thrown up that might be significant is that
the CPU fan speed is not being detected. The fan spins up alright, but
the system board cannot sense its speed, so perhaps the system is
slowing down the CPU to keep things cool?
On 4/8/2023 8:22 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-07 23:38, Java Jive wrote:
On 07/04/2023 00:17, Java Jive wrote:
On 06/04/2023 16:02, Java Jive wrote:
It's not the disk. I tried swapping in P3's disk and the long delay
between the POST screen and beginning to load anything, XP in that
case, was still there.
The other test I've done today is run Dell's own diagnostics on it,
which took a very long time. Like CrystalMark, no fault was found
with the disk. The only thing thrown up that might be significant is
that the CPU fan speed is not being detected. The fan spins up
alright, but the system board cannot sense its speed, so perhaps the
system is slowing down the CPU to keep things cool?
That would be weird. A computer can indeed slow the CPU if it is hot,
but the fan speed should not matter.
Indeed, I have noticed in seemingly powerful, fanless laptopts and
mini pcs, that they start a a heavy cpu task at full speed, and after
half a minute they slow down because the CPU can not evacuate the heat
at that pace.
The machines are good for desktop use, where they respond fast to user
actions on a document, but not if the task is long.
Which is fine, if you know that design choice.
Intel CPUs do Turbo for 28 seconds or 56 seconds.
After that time, they run at a lower speed. Some review
articles describe such policies.
What you're hearing, could be the Turbo profile.
Also, I'm still interested in SDDs for other reasons, probably a 1 &/or 2TB. Two particular models have been discussed, a Samsung 860 EVO 1TB &
the QVO equivalent. Any others that have given people good service?
On 2023-04-07 23:38, Java Jive wrote:
The other test I've done today is run Dell's own diagnostics on it,
which took a very long time. Like CrystalMark, no fault was found
with the disk. The only thing thrown up that might be significant is
that the CPU fan speed is not being detected. The fan spins up
alright, but the system board cannot sense its speed, so perhaps the
system is slowing down the CPU to keep things cool?
That would be weird. A computer can indeed slow the CPU if it is hot,
but the fan speed should not matter.
On 4/7/2023 5:38 PM, Java Jive wrote:
The only thing thrown up that might be significant is that the CPU fan
speed is not being detected.
Fan speed is typically done with a three wire fan, and
the third wire has the two-pulse-per-rotation signal on it.
On 07/04/2023 22:38, Java Jive wrote:
Also, I'm still interested in SDDs for other reasons, probably a 1
&/or 2TB. Two particular models have been discussed, a Samsung 860
EVO 1TB & the QVO equivalent. Any others that have given people good
service?
I use Samsung EVO for mission critical stuff but the rest of my my
computers have Crucial SSDs of various models.
In the past I have had
several conventional hard drive failures but so far (touchwood) no
failures at all with SSDs.
On 07/04/2023 22:38, Java Jive wrote:
I use Samsung EVO for mission critical stuff but the rest of my my
Also, I'm still interested in SDDs for other reasons, probably a 1
&/or 2TB. Two particular models have been discussed, a Samsung 860
EVO 1TB & the QVO equivalent. Any others that have given people good
service?
computers have Crucial SSDs of various models. In the past I have had several conventional hard drive failures but so far (touchwood) no
failures at all with SSDs.
Also, I'm still interested in SDDs for other reasons, probably a 1 &/or
2TB. Two particular models have been discussed, a Samsung 860 EVO 1TB &
the QVO equivalent. Any others that have given people good service?
On 07/04/2023 00:17, Java Jive wrote:
On 06/04/2023 16:02, Java Jive wrote:
Please excuse the Linux/Windows crosspost, this is a question about
HD hardware relevant to both OSs!
Thanks for all the replies, all of which I've read and noted.
I have a Dell Precision M6300 that is slowing down really badly, and
I suspect, but have yet to prove, that the HD is failing.
This afternoon I got around to testing the HD with CrystalMark, which
gives it a Health Status of Good, though I wonder at what the columns
actually mean, in particular:
ID Attribute Name            Current Worst Threshold Raw Values
05 Reallocated Sectors Count 100     100   50        All zeros
0A Spin Retry Count          253     100   30        All zeros
The full log is appended.
It's not the disk. I tried swapping in P3's disk and the long delay
between the POST screen and beginning to load anything, XP in that case,
was still there.
The other test I've done today is run Dell's own diagnostics on it,
which took a very long time. Like CrystalMark, no fault was found with
the disk. The only thing thrown up that might be significant is that
the CPU fan speed is not being detected. The fan spins up alright, but
the system board cannot sense its speed, so perhaps the system is
slowing down the CPU to keep things cool?
At any rate, given the disk is fine, I see no particular need to replace
it yet, and I'll probably have to leave this now until I have less work
on, but thanks for all the helpful comments.
Well now, the plot ever thickens ...
Booting from a W98 DOS Mode USB-stick, it gets to the config.sys menu in
just 9 secs, just the same as the others!
WTF is going on here???!!!
On Fri, 7 Apr 2023 22:38:46 +0100, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
wrote:
Also, I'm still interested in SDDs for other reasons, probably a 1 &/or
2TB. Two particular models have been discussed, a Samsung 860 EVO 1TB &
the QVO equivalent. Any others that have given people good service?
People have been talking about Samsung QVO and EVO, but I'd like to toss
out a recommendation for Samsung Pro.
This article is one of many that tries to describe the differences
between the 3 Samsung product lines.
https://www.partitionwizard.com/clone-disk/samsung-qvo-vs-evo.html
Samsung QVO vs EVO vs PRO: What's the Difference?
How to Interpret Samsung SSD Model: QVO vs EVO vs PRO
In general, Samsung SSDs are mainly divided into two categories: enterprise-level SSDs and consumer-level SSDs. Enterprise SSDs focus on
data integrity, followed by capacity and performance, and finally cost. Consumer SSDs first seek cost, followed by capacity and performance, and finally data integrity.
In addition, consumer-level SSDs are also divided into two categories:
SSDs for retail customers and SSDs for OEM customers. QVO, EVO, and PRO usually appear in retail customer SSD models in the form of a suffix. To
some extent, these suffixes indicate different technologies applied in
NAND flash of these SSDs.
As we all know, an SSD often uses NAND flash to store data persistently.
When the NAND flash is made via different technologies, the SSD storage, performance, and lifespan will vary accordingly. In Samsung SSDs, PRO indicates the SSD uses MLC, EVO indicates the SSD uses TLC, and QVO
indicates the SSD uses QLC.
MLC, short for Multi-Level Cell, means that one memory cell can store 2
bits of data.
TLC, short for Triple-Level Cell, means that one memory cell can store 3
bits of data.
QLC, short for Quad-Level Cell, means that one memory cell can store 4
bits of data.
Cost: PRO SSD is the most expensive, then the EVO SSD, and finally the
QVO SSD.
Performance: performance of Samsung PRO SSD is the best, then the EVO
SSD, and finally the QVO SSD.
Lifespan: the lifespan of Samsung PRO SSD is the longest, then the EVO
SSD, and finally the QVO SSD.
...there is no other difference in technology among Samsung PRO, EVO,
and QVO SSDs, apart from NAND flash memory. But Samsung QVO, EVO, and
PRO SSDs still vary in performance and warranty (you regard it as
lifespan).
Samsung PRO SSD: It is currently the company’s flagship SATA SSD.
With MLC technology, its speed and the endurance rating or TBW make it
stand out from Samsung 860 QVO vs EVO vs PRO comparison. Although its warranty period is similar with the 860 EVO series, its TBW is doubled.
But it’s also the most expensive one as well. On Amazon, it starts at $87.99 (for 256GB).
Samsung EVO SSD: It’s one of the most popular SSD series in the
market and offers similar or near the performance of the 860 PRO SSD
series, but at a more affordable price. On Amazon, it starts at $59.98
(for 250GB).
Samsung QVO SSD: It is Samsung’s first consumer-grade quad-level
cell (QLC) NAND drive and has the same sequential read and write speed
with the 860 EVO. But the 4KB random read and write speeds and TBW can't match with those of 860 EVO series. Its only advantage is price,
starting at $109.99 (for 1TB) on Amazon.
In a word, if you want a large-capacity and cost-effective SSD, you can
buy 860 QVO. If you have no special demand, 860 EVO is sufficient. If
you need an SSD that be used under heavy load, I recommended you to buy
860 PRO.
(end article quote, but there's more at the link above)
On Sat, 08 Apr 2023 18:14:23 -0400, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
wrote:
Well now, the plot ever thickens ...
Booting from a W98 DOS Mode USB-stick, it gets to the config.sys menu in
just 9 secs, just the same as the others!
WTF is going on here???!!!
Different controllers. Perhaps there is a problem with the sata
controller or one of the devices connected to it (in terms of
the device being slow to initialize), or a barely working sata cable/connector.
Start by re-seating all of the sata connectors.
On 08/04/2023 23:53, David W. Hodgins wrote:laptop, and I'm too busy to do that ATM.
On Sat, 08 Apr 2023 18:14:23 -0400, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote: >>>
Well now, the plot ever thickens ...
Booting from a W98 DOS Mode USB-stick, it gets to the config.sys menu in >>> just 9 secs, just the same as the others!
WTF is going on here???!!!
Different controllers. Perhaps there is a problem with the sata controller or one of the devices connected to it (in terms of the device being slow to initialize), or a barely working sata
cable/connector.
Start by re-seating all of the sata connectors.
I'd already removed the HD to try the P3 one, but nevertheless I took it out again and examined the connectors, and there's nothing visibly wrong with them. I can't examine the mobo connectors or the controller chip without a major dismantling of the
Can anyone point to a UK source of reliable, genuinely new, moderately
priced non-shingled laptop drives from about 500GB to 1.5TB?
If you kink a SATA cable, it can have a high error rate.
SATA cables should be treated (roughly) like optical cable.
Don't exceed the bend radius allowed for SATA cables.
(The SATA cables that arrive in the mail, with an elastic
wrapped around them multiple times, that just makes me "nuts"
when I see that :-/ DONT DO THAT. )
Paul
On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 08:57:10 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote
as underneath :
snip
If you kink a SATA cable, it can have a high error rate.snip
SATA cables should be treated (roughly) like optical cable.
Don't exceed the bend radius allowed for SATA cables.
(The SATA cables that arrive in the mail, with an elastic
wrapped around them multiple times, that just makes me "nuts"
when I see that :-/ DONT DO THAT. )
Paul
Thanks I didnt know that! Have seen SATA cables supplied oem with motherboards folded but not that tightly. I once pulled a failing flat
red type cable to bits out of interest and found Alu. single strands
crimped to contacts inside the moulded ends which was a surprise to me.
C+
There has to be a pronounced kink in it, for the error counter to see an issue.
When you kink the cable, it crushes that white insulating material and changes the transmission line impedance.
On 06/04/2023 16:02, Java Jive wrote:
Can anyone point to a UK source of reliable, genuinely new,
moderately priced non-shingled laptop drives from about 500GB to 1.5TB?
WD model WD10JUCT is available from various suppliers for about £60.
It's intended for CCTV, DVRs and similar uses where the volume of data >written is similar to the volume read. OK the ones I have are new-old
stock dated 2017 - 2019.
Yes, previously, I've rather been put off SSD drives, because ...[]
... which between them give a combined failure rate of at least 15%,
which I would have guessed was higher than that for conventional HDs,
but now, trying to remember back systematically as best as I can over
about 3 to 4 decades, actually I recall 5 early failures in at least
about 25 HDs, or a maximum of around 20%, so for me SSDs certainly have >performed no worse, and most probably have performed better, than >conventional HDs, which I wouldn't have expected to be the case without >systematically trying to recall the details of the HDs that I've had.
In message <u11k8d$2933d$1@dont-email.me> at Mon, 10 Apr 2023 19:24:12, Dave <dave@cyw.uklinux.net> writesrandom access.)
On 06/04/2023 16:02, Java Jive wrote:
Can anyone point to a UK source of reliable, genuinely new, moderately priced non-shingled laptop drives from about 500GB to 1.5TB?
WD model WD10JUCT is available from various suppliers for about £60. It's intended for CCTV, DVRs and similar uses where the volume of data written is similar to the volume read. OK the ones I have are new-old stock dated 2017 - 2019.
I think the ones for TV purposes are "purple", in WD's colour scheme. Whether they're good (or even overkill), or bad, for general PC use, I've no idea. (I _suspect_ they're probably good on reliability, possibly only middling on speed, at least for
I don't know if they're different when it comes to the magnetic surfaces, or just the controllers.
On 5/3/2023 5:17 PM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
In message <u11k8d$2933d$1@dont-email.me> at Mon, 10 Apr 2023
19:24:12, Dave <dave@cyw.uklinux.net> writes
On 06/04/2023 16:02, Java Jive wrote:I think the ones for TV purposes are "purple", in WD's colour
Can anyone point to a UK source of reliable, genuinely new, >>>>moderately priced non-shingled laptop drives from about 500GB to 1.5TB? >>>WD model WD10JUCT is available from various suppliers for about £60. >>>It's intended for CCTV, DVRs and similar uses where the volume of
data written is similar to the volume read. OK the ones I have are >>>new-old stock dated 2017 - 2019.
scheme. Whether they're good (or even overkill), or bad, for general
PC use, I've no idea. (I _suspect_ they're probably good on
reliability, possibly only middling on speed, at least for random access.)
I don't know if they're different when it comes to the magnetic
surfaces, or just the controllers.
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/surveillance-hard-drive-performance >,3831-6.html
The bottom chart has Access Time, and the Access Time on the Purple is slow. >In a non-threaded storage situation (PC desktop), they would likely suck.
They would suck like my Seagate 4TB 5900RPM drive sucked yesterday :-)
Man is that thing slow. Good sequential though. For making backups.
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/surveillance-hard-drive-performance >,3831-5.html
When you buy the wrong drive, you can always pretend it was for backups.
Paul--
Please excuse the Linux/Windows crosspost, this is a question about HD hardware relevant to both OSs!
I have a Dell Precision M6300 that is slowing down really badly, and I suspect, but have yet to prove, that the HD is failing.
Of course, I could skip the shingles problem by going for an SSD, but
have not really explored this up til now. Experience and thoughts on
that would be welcome too.
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