• Timed DVB-T2 captures using VLC

    From Jim Lesurf@21:1/5 to All on Tue Nov 15 12:24:38 2022
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    I'm trying to work out how to use a command line approach to making
    sheduled TV captures using a DVB-T2 USB dongle + VLC using a Linux
    machine. Eventually to understand it well enough to write a simple ROX app
    that gives a simple interface which then generates the relevant output.

    Thus far I've got be being able to write executable files that will launch
    VLC playing the TV station of choice. e.g. one that contain commands like

    vlc --program=28224 dvb-t2://frequency=690000000:bandwidth=8

    which when executed starts VLC playing the "Talking Pictures" channel. It
    then puts the result into a .ts file in the default location (Downloads)
    using the default naming.

    IIUC I can add a "-runtime=<ssss>" to specify how long the recording will
    be, but the snag at present is how to get the command run to *start* at the correct time.

    I have installed the "at" command for this but for whatever reason can't
    get the command correct to do what I want. Looked on the web but not found
    an example that works.

    e.g. I can't seem to specify correctly what/where the file to put the
    recording should be. Which may be a sign I've muddled something else that throws the command off recognising the full-path name I give.

    Can someone point out how to get this to work, please? Once I've twigged
    this I can write a simple prog to generate a suitable set of 'at' commands
    to get them to record the required items. (I hope!)

    Ta.

    Jim

    --
    Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me. Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
    biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
    Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

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  • From Chris Elvidge@21:1/5 to Jim Lesurf on Tue Nov 15 13:26:04 2022
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    On 15/11/2022 12:24, Jim Lesurf wrote:
    I'm trying to work out how to use a command line approach to making
    sheduled TV captures using a DVB-T2 USB dongle + VLC using a Linux
    machine. Eventually to understand it well enough to write a simple ROX app that gives a simple interface which then generates the relevant output.

    Thus far I've got be being able to write executable files that will launch VLC playing the TV station of choice. e.g. one that contain commands like

    vlc --program=28224 dvb-t2://frequency=690000000:bandwidth=8

    which when executed starts VLC playing the "Talking Pictures" channel. It then puts the result into a .ts file in the default location (Downloads) using the default naming.

    IIUC I can add a "-runtime=<ssss>" to specify how long the recording will
    be, but the snag at present is how to get the command run to *start* at the correct time.

    I have installed the "at" command for this but for whatever reason can't
    get the command correct to do what I want. Looked on the web but not found
    an example that works.

    e.g. I can't seem to specify correctly what/where the file to put the recording should be. Which may be a sign I've muddled something else that throws the command off recognising the full-path name I give.

    Can someone point out how to get this to work, please? Once I've twigged
    this I can write a simple prog to generate a suitable set of 'at' commands
    to get them to record the required items. (I hope!)

    Ta.

    Jim


    I too have had problems with 'at'.
    Can you set up a cron job to start it?

    Alternatively, TVHeadend.
    "Tvheadend is a TV streaming server and recorder for Linux, FreeBSD and
    Android supporting DVB-S, DVB-S2, DVB-C, DVB-T, DVB-T2, ATSC, ISDB-T,
    IPTV, SAT>IP and HDHomeRun as input sources." https://tvheadend.org/projects/tvheadend

    I've successfully used it on a RPi with OSMC.



    --
    Chris Elvidge
    England

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  • From Robin@21:1/5 to Jim Lesurf on Tue Nov 15 13:32:34 2022
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    On 15/11/2022 12:24, Jim Lesurf wrote:
    I'm trying to work out how to use a command line approach to making
    sheduled TV captures using a DVB-T2 USB dongle + VLC using a Linux
    machine. Eventually to understand it well enough to write a simple ROX app that gives a simple interface which then generates the relevant output.

    Thus far I've got be being able to write executable files that will launch VLC playing the TV station of choice. e.g. one that contain commands like

    vlc --program=28224 dvb-t2://frequency=690000000:bandwidth=8

    which when executed starts VLC playing the "Talking Pictures" channel. It then puts the result into a .ts file in the default location (Downloads) using the default naming.

    IIUC I can add a "-runtime=<ssss>" to specify how long the recording will
    be, but the snag at present is how to get the command run to *start* at the correct time.

    I have installed the "at" command for this but for whatever reason can't
    get the command correct to do what I want. Looked on the web but not found
    an example that works.

    e.g. I can't seem to specify correctly what/where the file to put the recording should be. Which may be a sign I've muddled something else that throws the command off recognising the full-path name I give.

    Can someone point out how to get this to work, please? Once I've twigged
    this I can write a simple prog to generate a suitable set of 'at' commands
    to get them to record the required items. (I hope!)

    I take it this is the Unix/Linux "at command" (not a VLC command). In
    other words, it schedules when the command to record is /sent/ to VLC,
    not when VLC /acts/ on the command.

    I've never used that with VLC but others claim to have done so. E.g.

    https://www.sourcefabric.org/blog/schedule-stream-recordings-from-the-command-line-part-2-vvm0irq2



    --
    Robin
    reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

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  • From Roger@21:1/5 to noise@audiomisc.co.uk on Tue Nov 15 14:11:26 2022
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 12:24:38 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
    <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:

    I'm trying to work out how to use a command line approach to making
    sheduled TV captures using a DVB-T2 USB dongle + VLC using a Linux
    machine. Eventually to understand it well enough to write a simple ROX app >that gives a simple interface which then generates the relevant output.

    Thus far I've got be being able to write executable files that will launch >VLC playing the TV station of choice. e.g. one that contain commands like

    vlc --program=28224 dvb-t2://frequency=690000000:bandwidth=8

    which when executed starts VLC playing the "Talking Pictures" channel. It >then puts the result into a .ts file in the default location (Downloads) >using the default naming.

    IIUC I can add a "-runtime=<ssss>" to specify how long the recording will
    be, but the snag at present is how to get the command run to *start* at the >correct time.

    I use "at" with "get_iplayer" so that part is easy, assuming
    that IUYC. Let's say you want run a file at 21:00 tomorrow, the
    16th November.

    at -t 202211162100 -f vlc_script

    The time is "CC YY MM DD hh mm" without spaces. I like to
    specify the date and time in full. "vlc_script" is the program
    you want started at that time.

    I have installed the "at" command for this but for whatever reason can't
    get the command correct to do what I want. Looked on the web but not found
    an example that works.

    e.g. I can't seem to specify correctly what/where the file to put the >recording should be. Which may be a sign I've muddled something else that >throws the command off recognising the full-path name I give.

    I should have thought that you would need to specify the
    destination in the "vlc_script" file. Nothing to do with
    "at" which does nothing except run the file specified.

    I hope some of that helps.
    --
    Roger

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  • From Jim Lesurf@21:1/5 to Roger on Tue Nov 15 15:02:27 2022
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    In article <vn67nhd848h7skl2fbngljoup4tm3qpcat@4ax.com>,
    Roger <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 12:24:38 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
    <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:


    I use "at" with "get_iplayer" so that part is easy, assuming
    that IUYC. Let's say you want run a file at 21:00 tomorrow, the
    16th November.

    at -t 202211162100 -f vlc_script

    The time is "CC YY MM DD hh mm" without spaces. I like to
    specify the date and time in full. "vlc_script" is the program
    you want started at that time.

    FWIW I'm just using hhmm at present, and from the jobs listed by atq it
    seems to work. i.e. the jobs get listed as being to started at that time
    today. They also duly vanish from the list... but without giving a coconut.


    I should have thought that you would need to specify the
    destination in the "vlc_script" file. Nothing to do with
    "at" which does nothing except run the file specified.

    I'm using the '-f' of 'at' to point at files that contain things like

    vlc --program=28224 dvb-t2://frequency=690000000:bandwidth=8

    The files are set to be executable. And if I click on one with ROX Filer
    they will start VLC playing the required station ('program' as numbered by
    its main stream ID)

    Tried calling cvlc rather than vlc, but still, no cigar. So I must be using
    at here in the wrong way or have to alter what's in the file from the
    above.

    Does having no longer have the job queued cause an attempt to close down
    the 'child' process? i.e. stops it as soon as at has launched it?

    Still puzzled but must be doing something daft! :-/

    Jim

    --
    Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me. Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
    biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
    Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

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  • From Robin@21:1/5 to Jim Lesurf on Tue Nov 15 15:50:58 2022
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    On 15/11/2022 15:02, Jim Lesurf wrote:
    In article <vn67nhd848h7skl2fbngljoup4tm3qpcat@4ax.com>,
    Roger <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 12:24:38 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
    <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:


    I use "at" with "get_iplayer" so that part is easy, assuming
    that IUYC. Let's say you want run a file at 21:00 tomorrow, the
    16th November.

    at -t 202211162100 -f vlc_script

    The time is "CC YY MM DD hh mm" without spaces. I like to
    specify the date and time in full. "vlc_script" is the program
    you want started at that time.

    FWIW I'm just using hhmm at present, and from the jobs listed by atq it
    seems to work. i.e. the jobs get listed as being to started at that time today. They also duly vanish from the list... but without giving a coconut.


    I should have thought that you would need to specify the
    destination in the "vlc_script" file. Nothing to do with
    "at" which does nothing except run the file specified.

    I'm using the '-f' of 'at' to point at files that contain things like

    vlc --program=28224 dvb-t2://frequency=690000000:bandwidth=8


    I may have misunderstood but have you tested this with *only* that
    "known good" command (to get VLC to open the programme at the required
    time) and *nothing* about recording etc? Until that works I'd not worry
    about things like recording time and file location.



    --
    Robin
    reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

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  • From NY@21:1/5 to Chris Elvidge on Tue Nov 15 15:16:04 2022
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    On 15/11/2022 13:26, Chris Elvidge wrote:
    Alternatively, TVHeadend.
    "Tvheadend is a TV streaming server and recorder for Linux, FreeBSD and Android supporting DVB-S, DVB-S2, DVB-C, DVB-T, DVB-T2, ATSC, ISDB-T,
    IPTV, SAT>IP and HDHomeRun as input sources." https://tvheadend.org/projects/tvheadend

    I've successfully used it on a RPi with OSMC.

    Yes, rather than trying to persuade the wrong tool to work - which you
    may manage after a lot of struggling - why not use a tool which is
    designed to do the job: TVHeadend. I run it on normal Raspberry Pi OS
    (as opposed to OSMC) and it works very well, recording from a selection
    of terrestrial and satellite tuners.

    NextPVR, which used to be Windows-only, has now been rewritten so it can
    be used on Windows or Linux. One day I'll have to try it. I used it on
    Windows before I got the Pi.

    It had the big advantage over TVH that it could detect schedule clashes
    (too many simultaneous recordings scheduled compared with the number of
    tuners) at the time of requesting a programme, whereas TVH lets you set
    up conflicting programmes and only notices as it starts to record, by
    which time it is too late. I raised it as an enhancement (citing
    NextPVR's ability to do it) and was told in no uncertain terms that it
    was technically impossible in some obscure, atypical set of
    circumstances so they had no intention of even *trying* to make it work
    for the much more typical situations.

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  • From NY@21:1/5 to Jim Lesurf on Tue Nov 15 15:19:33 2022
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    On 15/11/2022 15:02, Jim Lesurf wrote:
    In article <vn67nhd848h7skl2fbngljoup4tm3qpcat@4ax.com>,
    Roger <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 12:24:38 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
    <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:


    I use "at" with "get_iplayer" so that part is easy, assuming
    that IUYC. Let's say you want run a file at 21:00 tomorrow, the
    16th November.

    at -t 202211162100 -f vlc_script

    The time is "CC YY MM DD hh mm" without spaces. I like to
    specify the date and time in full. "vlc_script" is the program
    you want started at that time.

    FWIW I'm just using hhmm at present, and from the jobs listed by atq it
    seems to work. i.e. the jobs get listed as being to started at that time today. They also duly vanish from the list... but without giving a coconut.


    I should have thought that you would need to specify the
    destination in the "vlc_script" file. Nothing to do with
    "at" which does nothing except run the file specified.

    I'm using the '-f' of 'at' to point at files that contain things like

    vlc --program=28224 dvb-t2://frequency=690000000:bandwidth=8

    The files are set to be executable. And if I click on one with ROX Filer
    they will start VLC playing the required station ('program' as numbered by its main stream ID)

    Tried calling cvlc rather than vlc, but still, no cigar. So I must be using at here in the wrong way or have to alter what's in the file from the
    above.

    Does having no longer have the job queued cause an attempt to close down
    the 'child' process? i.e. stops it as soon as at has launched it?

    Still puzzled but must be doing something daft! :-/

    Just a thought: when VLC is invoked from the script using "at", can the
    shell find the vlc exe file? Try giving the full path to vlc, and see if
    it makes any difference...

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  • From Roger@21:1/5 to noise@audiomisc.co.uk on Tue Nov 15 17:49:54 2022
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 15:02:27 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
    <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:

    In article <vn67nhd848h7skl2fbngljoup4tm3qpcat@4ax.com>,
    Roger <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 12:24:38 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
    <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:


    I use "at" with "get_iplayer" so that part is easy, assuming
    that IUYC. Let's say you want run a file at 21:00 tomorrow, the
    16th November.

    at -t 202211162100 -f vlc_script

    The time is "CC YY MM DD hh mm" without spaces. I like to
    specify the date and time in full. "vlc_script" is the program
    you want started at that time.

    FWIW I'm just using hhmm at present, and from the jobs listed by atq it
    seems to work. i.e. the jobs get listed as being to started at that time >today. They also duly vanish from the list... but without giving a coconut.

    But when you've got it working you may schedule things days or
    weeks in advance.

    I should have thought that you would need to specify the
    destination in the "vlc_script" file. Nothing to do with
    "at" which does nothing except run the file specified.

    I'm using the '-f' of 'at' to point at files that contain things like

    vlc --program=28224 dvb-t2://frequency=690000000:bandwidth=8

    The files are set to be executable. And if I click on one with ROX Filer
    they will start VLC playing the required station ('program' as numbered by >its main stream ID)

    As NY suggested by didn't say this way; your vlc script has to
    be in your PATH, if it isn't you should put the full path in the
    script.

    Instead of using ROX run the script from your shell's prompt
    whilst in a different directory from where the script is. If
    your shell cannot find it then try again using the full path.
    Oh, why not change the script to

    echo Hello world!

    You'll be able to see immediately whether the script has run
    correctly or not.

    Does having no longer have the job queued cause an attempt to close down
    the 'child' process? i.e. stops it as soon as at has launched it?

    If it's not listed using atq then at has attempted to do its job
    and removed it from the queue.

    Have you checked the logs (probably in /var/log)? Run your
    script and immediately look at the logs to see which was most
    recently written to (ls -ltr /path/to/logs). If the time is
    "now" look at the last entries in that log. There should be a
    clue there.

    Still puzzled but must be doing something daft! :-/

    I couldn't possibly comment.
    --
    Roger

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  • From Jim Lesurf@21:1/5 to rbw@outlook.com on Wed Nov 16 09:56:05 2022
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    In article <3d489af1-f15b-520d-1bc5-b3adae6da04c@outlook.com>, Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
    I'm using the '-f' of 'at' to point at files that contain things like

    vlc --program=28224 dvb-t2://frequency=690000000:bandwidth=8


    I may have misunderstood but have you tested this with *only* that
    "known good" command (to get VLC to open the programme at the required
    time) and *nothing* about recording etc? Until that works I'd not worry about things like recording time and file location.

    Yes. Commands like the above work as expected. They start up VLC and it
    finds and plays the station whose PID is given the value (28224 in the
    above example which IIRC is TalkingPicturesTV). At the monent I then press
    the 'record' icon and it starts recording the stream into a .ts file.

    Jim

    --
    Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me. Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
    biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
    Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

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  • From Jim Lesurf@21:1/5 to Roger on Wed Nov 16 10:01:17 2022
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    In article <8ui7nh1coc4mld3pi5tn88u9jcj653mnq2@4ax.com>,
    Roger <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 15:02:27 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
    <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:

    In article <vn67nhd848h7skl2fbngljoup4tm3qpcat@4ax.com>,
    Roger <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 12:24:38 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
    <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:


    The time is "CC YY MM DD hh mm" without spaces. I like to
    specify the date and time in full. "vlc_script" is the program
    you want started at that time.

    FWIW I'm just using hhmm at present, and from the jobs listed by atq it >seems to work. i.e. the jobs get listed as being to started at that time >today. They also duly vanish from the list... but without giving a coconut.

    But when you've got it working you may schedule things days or
    weeks in advance.

    Yes, I may well do that. But am trying to cut down on typing at present as
    I try things by hand.

    I should have thought that you would need to specify the
    destination in the "vlc_script" file. Nothing to do with
    "at" which does nothing except run the file specified.

    I'm using the '-f' of 'at' to point at files that contain things like

    vlc --program=28224 dvb-t2://frequency=690000000:bandwidth=8

    The files are set to be executable. And if I click on one with ROX Filer >they will start VLC playing the required station ('program' as numbered by >its main stream ID)

    As NY suggested by didn't say this way; your vlc script has to
    be in your PATH, if it isn't you should put the full path in the
    script.

    Instead of using ROX run the script from your shell's prompt
    whilst in a different directory from where the script is. If
    your shell cannot find it then try again using the full path.
    Oh, why not change the script to

    echo Hello world!

    You'll be able to see immediately whether the script has run
    correctly or not.

    I'll experiment. :-)

    Does having no longer have the job queued cause an attempt to close down >the 'child' process? i.e. stops it as soon as at has launched it?

    If it's not listed using atq then at has attempted to do its job
    and removed it from the queue.

    Have you checked the logs (probably in /var/log)? Run your
    script and immediately look at the logs to see which was most
    recently written to (ls -ltr /path/to/logs). If the time is
    "now" look at the last entries in that log. There should be a
    clue there.

    Still puzzled but must be doing something daft! :-/

    I couldn't possibly comment.

    No need.

    We learn by making mistakes. Hmmm, I must learn quite a lot... 8-]

    Jim

    --
    Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me. Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
    biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
    Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

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  • From Robin@21:1/5 to Jim Lesurf on Wed Nov 16 17:07:45 2022
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    On 16/11/2022 09:56, Jim Lesurf wrote:
    In article <3d489af1-f15b-520d-1bc5-b3adae6da04c@outlook.com>, Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
    I'm using the '-f' of 'at' to point at files that contain things like

    vlc --program=28224 dvb-t2://frequency=690000000:bandwidth=8


    I may have misunderstood but have you tested this with *only* that
    "known good" command (to get VLC to open the programme at the required
    time) and *nothing* about recording etc? Until that works I'd not worry
    about things like recording time and file location.

    Yes. Commands like the above work as expected. They start up VLC and it
    finds and plays the station whose PID is given the value (28224 in the
    above example which IIRC is TalkingPicturesTV). At the monent I then press the 'record' icon and it starts recording the stream into a .ts file.


    If "at" with that causes VLC to open at the right time I don't see how
    the problem can lie with "at".

    I've found some remnants of what I used to use with VLC before I
    switched to NextPVR for recording. The following works now in Windows
    to open the programme and record for the set 20 seconds. I can't test
    on a Raspberry Pi as I've no DVB-T dongle free.

    "C:\Program Files\VideoLAN\VLC\vlc.exe" --program=17540 dvb-t2://frequency=545833000:bandwidth=8 --sout="#standard{access=file,mux=ts,dst=OUTPUT.ts}" --run-time=20
    vlc://quit

    NB: no point asking me "why...?" I found getting VLC to record DVB-T
    was for me like the way young lads were (allegedly) told how to get down
    from the top of a hay rick.


    --
    Robin
    reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

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  • From Robin@21:1/5 to Robin on Wed Nov 16 17:55:42 2022
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    On 16/11/2022 17:07, Robin wrote:
    On 16/11/2022 09:56, Jim Lesurf wrote:
    In article <3d489af1-f15b-520d-1bc5-b3adae6da04c@outlook.com>, Robin
    <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
    I'm using the '-f' of 'at' to point at files that contain things like

    vlc --program=28224 dvb-t2://frequency=690000000:bandwidth=8


    I may have misunderstood but have you tested this with *only* that
    "known good" command (to get VLC to open the programme at the required
    time) and *nothing* about recording etc?  Until that works I'd not worry >>> about things like recording time and file location.

    Yes. Commands like the above work as expected. They start up VLC and it
    finds and plays the station whose PID is given the value (28224 in the
    above example which IIRC is TalkingPicturesTV). At the monent I then
    press
    the 'record' icon and it starts recording the stream into a .ts file.


    If "at" with that causes VLC to open at the right time I don't see how
    the problem can lie with "at".

    I've found some remnants of what I used to use with VLC before I
    switched to NextPVR for recording.  The following works now in Windows
    to open the programme and record for the set 20 seconds.  I can't test
    on a Raspberry Pi as I've no DVB-T dongle free.

    "C:\Program Files\VideoLAN\VLC\vlc.exe" --program=17540 dvb-t2://frequency=545833000:bandwidth=8 --sout="#standard{access=file,mux=ts,dst=OUTPUT.ts}" --run-time=20
    vlc://quit

    umm, err, then again, make that

    "C:\Program Files\VideoLAN\VLC\vlc.exe" --program=17540 dvb-t2://frequency=545833000:bandwidth=8 --sout="#standard{access=file,mux=ts,dst=OUTPUT.ts}" --no-sout-all --run-time=20 vlc://quit


    NB: no point asking me "why...?"  I found getting VLC to record DVB-T
    was for me like the way young lads were (allegedly) told how to get down
    from the top of a hay rick.


    sorry, seems I may have tried that and landed on my head

    --
    Robin
    reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

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  • From NY@21:1/5 to All on Wed Nov 16 20:40:19 2022
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    "Robin" <rbw@outlook.com> wrote in message news:48e1721b-06f8-924d-974f-1068d8ccd0ad@outlook.com...

    NB: no point asking me "why...?" I found getting VLC to record DVB-T was
    for me like the way young lads were (allegedly) told how to get down from
    the top of a hay rick.

    What *was* the way that "young lads were (allegedly) told how to get down
    from the top of a hay rick"?

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