• TOT: Public Version of Family Archive

    From Java Jive@21:1/5 to All on Wed Nov 17 21:26:36 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, alt.windows7.general, alt.photography
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    [For obvious reasons, this is a deliberate cross-post.]

    Many people in these ngs over the last year or two have been kind
    enough to help me with useful advice as I have struggled to scan my
    way through a trunkful of family documents going back to a parchment
    (animal skin) from the reign of Queen Anne. While not yet complete
    (will it ever be?), a major milestone has been reached today with the
    release of an archive to the general public. For those interested,
    it's here:

    http://www.macfh.co.uk/Macfarlane/FamilyHistory/FamilyHistory.shtml

    Thanks again to all who have contributed their advice.
    --

    Fake news kills!

    ========================================================
    Please always reply to ng as the email in this post's
    header does not exist. Or use a contact address at:
    http://www.macfh.co.uk/JavaJive/JavaJive.html
    http://www.macfh.co.uk/Macfarlane/Macfarlane.html

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  • From J. P. Gilliver (John)@21:1/5 to Java Jive on Wed Nov 17 22:05:44 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, alt.windows7.general, alt.photography
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    On Wed, 17 Nov 2021 at 21:26:36, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote
    (my responses usually follow points raised):
    [For obvious reasons, this is a deliberate cross-post.]

    Many people in these ngs over the last year or two have been kind
    enough to help me with useful advice as I have struggled to scan my
    way through a trunkful of family documents going back to a parchment
    (animal skin) from the reign of Queen Anne. While not yet complete
    (will it ever be?), a major milestone has been reached today with the
    release of an archive to the general public. For those interested,
    it's here:

    http://www.macfh.co.uk/Macfarlane/FamilyHistory/FamilyHistory.shtml

    Thanks again to all who have contributed their advice.
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    "If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the
    law." - Winston Churchill.

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  • From Java Jive@21:1/5 to me@privacy.invalid on Wed Nov 17 22:55:56 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, alt.windows7.general, alt.photography
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    On Wed, 17 Nov 2021 22:29:47 -0000, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

    "Java Jive" <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote in message news:8qsapg1mutu0veu0t1u3fvuq066or69nds@4ax.com...
    [For obvious reasons, this is a deliberate cross-post.]

    Many people in these ngs over the last year or two have been kind
    enough to help me with useful advice as I have struggled to scan my
    way through a trunkful of family documents going back to a parchment (animal skin) from the reign of Queen Anne. While not yet complete
    (will it ever be?), a major milestone has been reached today with the release of an archive to the general public. For those interested,
    it's here:

    http://www.macfh.co.uk/Macfarlane/FamilyHistory/FamilyHistory.shtml

    Thanks again to all who have contributed their advice.

    That is a fantastic collection of photos and papers. The oldest things I've got are a few photos on dog-eared thick card and a photo of my great x n grandmother as a young woman, on glass or maybe on metal protected by glass (could it be a Daguerrotype?). But no papers going further back than that. When I was about 10, back in the mid 70s, my dad got my grandpa and his mother (my great-grandma) together and recorded a conversation of their reminiscences about "who was Henry Walmsley?", "who owned the sweet works that burned down - several times?" and my grandpa's memories of witnessing a tram crash right in front of him when it lost control on a steep hill, came off the rails and ran uncontrolled across the market place into a bank. And his memories of scare-stories from his dad who was a foreman in an iron foundry, of people being injured or killed in accidents in the foundry. And then memories of helping the limelight operator at the local theatre with some of the very elaborate lighting effects: as with any new technology (think of word processors and the initial gratuitous plethora of fonts in a document!) there was a tendency in the 1910s/20s for directors to over-use the technology and to demand lots of lighting changes to highlight specific objects as they were mentioned in the dialogue ("there's my cigarette case
    on the mantelpiece", so the limelight operator had to have a pencil beam aimed at the case, ready to reveal it on cue).

    Nothing as far back as you go, and nothing as grand and opulent as yours,
    but still a wonderful record of their voices (their intonation, their accents, their phraseology) and of their accounts of life in the early 20th century. That 2-hour tape has been copied to numerous WAV files which are backed up all over the place, along with my own transcription of it to Word file.

    Thanks, but I don't think you should be too impressed by 'grand and
    opulent'! Everyone has their story of their times, and we are lucky
    today that digitisation means that we can save so much of it and make
    it freely accessible to all.

    IMV, one of the most interesting recent series on TV has been David
    Olusoga's "A House Through Time":

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09l64y9

    He is a good presenter, and I like the fact that he tries to tell the
    story of poor people as well as wealthier people.
    --

    Fake news kills!

    ========================================================
    Please always reply to ng as the email in this post's
    header does not exist. Or use a contact address at:
    http://www.macfh.co.uk/JavaJive/JavaJive.html
    http://www.macfh.co.uk/Macfarlane/Macfarlane.html

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  • From NY@21:1/5 to Java Jive on Wed Nov 17 22:29:47 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, alt.windows7.general, alt.photography
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    "Java Jive" <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote in message news:8qsapg1mutu0veu0t1u3fvuq066or69nds@4ax.com...
    [For obvious reasons, this is a deliberate cross-post.]

    Many people in these ngs over the last year or two have been kind
    enough to help me with useful advice as I have struggled to scan my
    way through a trunkful of family documents going back to a parchment
    (animal skin) from the reign of Queen Anne. While not yet complete
    (will it ever be?), a major milestone has been reached today with the
    release of an archive to the general public. For those interested,
    it's here:

    http://www.macfh.co.uk/Macfarlane/FamilyHistory/FamilyHistory.shtml

    Thanks again to all who have contributed their advice.

    That is a fantastic collection of photos and papers. The oldest things I've
    got are a few photos on dog-eared thick card and a photo of my great x n grandmother as a young woman, on glass or maybe on metal protected by glass (could it be a Daguerrotype?). But no papers going further back than that.
    When I was about 10, back in the mid 70s, my dad got my grandpa and his
    mother (my great-grandma) together and recorded a conversation of their reminiscences about "who was Henry Walmsley?", "who owned the sweet works
    that burned down - several times?" and my grandpa's memories of witnessing a tram crash right in front of him when it lost control on a steep hill, came
    off the rails and ran uncontrolled across the market place into a bank. And
    his memories of scare-stories from his dad who was a foreman in an iron foundry, of people being injured or killed in accidents in the foundry. And then memories of helping the limelight operator at the local theatre with
    some of the very elaborate lighting effects: as with any new technology
    (think of word processors and the initial gratuitous plethora of fonts in a document!) there was a tendency in the 1910s/20s for directors to over-use
    the technology and to demand lots of lighting changes to highlight specific objects as they were mentioned in the dialogue ("there's my cigarette case
    on the mantelpiece", so the limelight operator had to have a pencil beam
    aimed at the case, ready to reveal it on cue).

    Nothing as far back as you go, and nothing as grand and opulent as yours,
    but still a wonderful record of their voices (their intonation, their
    accents, their phraseology) and of their accounts of life in the early 20th century. That 2-hour tape has been copied to numerous WAV files which are backed up all over the place, along with my own transcription of it to Word file.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From NY@21:1/5 to Java Jive on Thu Nov 18 01:55:15 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, alt.windows7.general, alt.photography
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    On 17/11/2021 22:55, Java Jive wrote:

    IMV, one of the most interesting recent series on TV has been David
    Olusoga's "A House Through Time":

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09l64y9

    He is a good presenter, and I like the fact that he tries to tell the
    story of poor people as well as wealthier people.

    Yes, it's an excellent series of programmes. I enjoyed the Leeds one particularly because that's the city where I was born and lived until I
    was about 10, and the house was only a couple of streets away from the
    school that my mum went to. It's remarkable the amount of information
    that the researchers have managed to unearth about each of the families
    who lived in the houses.

    With programmes like A House Through Time and Who Do You Think You Are,
    I've always wondered how many houses/families *looked* promising
    initially but turned out after closer research to have very little
    information available... or else a wealth of information that was just
    too prosaic. :-(

    I wonder what history might be unearthed about our house, which has
    parts dating back to at least 1890 (it's on an 1890 25" map but not on
    an 1850 6" map, and the NLS doesn't have any maps dated in between).
    When we bought the house a couple of years ago, I tried to work out a
    time-line of owners from the huge bundle of papers we were given as the
    deeds, but that probably lists owners rather than tenants - and I'm sure
    many of the owners that I've identified never lived here themselves.
    We're lucky that the woman who lives next door used to own our house,
    until she and her husband sold it to the people who we bought it from
    about 30 years ago, at which time they built a new house in what had
    been the grounds of our house. So she's fascinated to see how the house
    has changed and gradually been extended.

    It's the stories of people's attitudes and how they cope with adversity
    that really capture my imagination: my great-grandma recounts how her tyrannical grandpa wouldn't let his wife wear a new dress that she'd
    bought on hire-purchase... until the last instalment had been paid! My
    grandpa told the story of his father having to leave the area where he'd
    grown up to look for work in the (English) Midlands, and he'd been there
    for a few months when he arrived at work one morning to be met by
    someone he'd never seen before - "I'm t'new gaffer now. You worked for
    my predecessor? Right, you can pack up and bugger off! I'm not having
    anyone that he took on working here." And so he and his mate had to walk
    the hundred-odd miles back home because they had no money for food or
    for a train - it took them about a fortnight, literally singing for
    their supper in pubs or sleeping in hedge-bottoms. Life was hard!

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  • From Jim Lesurf@21:1/5 to me@privacy.invalid on Thu Nov 18 10:25:29 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, alt.windows7.general, alt.photography
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    In article <sn3vqu$9hs$1@dont-email.me>, NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

    http://www.macfh.co.uk/Macfarlane/FamilyHistory/FamilyHistory.shtml

    Thanks again to all who have contributed their advice.

    Thanks. Interesting. :-)

    That said, I'm afraid I find your choice of BG/FG/Text colours quite hard
    to read. Since you posted about your 'history' I'll be cheeky and post a
    link to my own

    http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html

    which uses a simpler layout and colours that I find much easier. And may
    also interest some here given the xposting. Apologies to anyone who
    objects to xposting so many groups. Not something I'd usually do.

    Slainte,

    Jim

    --
    Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me. Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
    biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
    Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

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  • From Java Jive@21:1/5 to All on Thu Nov 18 11:17:57 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, alt.windows7.general, alt.photography
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    On Thu, 18 Nov 2021 10:25:29 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf

    That said, I'm afraid I find your choice of BG/FG/Text colours quite hard
    to read. Since you posted about your 'history' I'll be cheeky and post a
    link to my own

    http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html

    Sorry, can't agree there; I find yours garish, mine more restful to
    the eyes.
    --

    Fake news kills!

    ========================================================
    Please always reply to ng as the email in this post's
    header does not exist. Or use a contact address at:
    http://www.macfh.co.uk/JavaJive/JavaJive.html
    http://www.macfh.co.uk/Macfarlane/Macfarlane.html

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  • From Indy Jess John@21:1/5 to Java Jive on Thu Nov 18 13:59:44 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, alt.windows7.general, alt.photography
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    On 18/11/2021 11:17, Java Jive wrote:
    On Thu, 18 Nov 2021 10:25:29 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf

    That said, I'm afraid I find your choice of BG/FG/Text colours quite hard
    to read. Since you posted about your 'history' I'll be cheeky and post a
    link to my own

    http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html

    Sorry, can't agree there; I find yours garish, mine more restful to
    the eyes.

    I had a bit of screen design training some time ago as a preliminary to recommending a website design guide for a project.

    In a nutshell, different people would have different preferences (males
    and females differ on what is "the best" colours, for instance) so the
    main objective would be to find widely acceptable rather than ideal.

    It boiled down to knowing how long the typical person would be looking
    at it and what message the design would aim to convey, and there was no
    "right" answer, though there were a few "wrong" ones. A typical "wrong"
    one was failing to recognise that about 8% of the population had some
    degree of colour blindness and they would have difficulty with schemes
    of juxtaposed Green & Black, Green & Grey, Blue & Grey, Light Green &
    Yellow, Green & Blue, Blue & Purple, Green & Brown, and Green & Red.

    The other "wrong" one would be one that quickly tired the eyes of people looking at the screen for long periods of time. For those, light text
    on a dark background tires the eyes quite quickly because some visual
    rest comes from light areas with no content. Having said that, a pure
    white background is a bit bright and becomes gradually more attention
    grabbing than the text on top of it if looked at for long periods.

    For my project, the use by data entry clerks, I was advised to use a
    light pastel rather than stark white for the background, and my later
    little "what do you think of this?" sample for workmates showed a
    preference for pale cyan or pale buff as I tweaked the colour codes in
    the CSS.

    I can accept that you prefer your own screen presentation (you chose it
    so that was a given), and I note that the sans serif font on a dark
    background makes it easily readable. However my personal preference
    between yours and Jim's in Jim's.

    Jim

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  • From Java Jive@21:1/5 to All on Thu Nov 18 15:15:04 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, alt.windows7.general, alt.photography
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    On Thu, 18 Nov 2021 13:59:44 +0000, Indy Jess John

    The other "wrong" one would be one that quickly tired the eyes of people looking at the screen for long periods of time. For those, light text
    on a dark background tires the eyes quite quickly because some visual
    rest comes from light areas with no content. Having said that, a pure
    white background is a bit bright and becomes gradually more attention grabbing than the text on top of it if looked at for long periods.

    I find the bright backgrounds on most websites garish and tiring to
    the eyes, that's why I chose the light on dark design that I did.
    --

    Fake news kills!

    ========================================================
    Please always reply to ng as the email in this post's
    header does not exist. Or use a contact address at:
    http://www.macfh.co.uk/JavaJive/JavaJive.html
    http://www.macfh.co.uk/Macfarlane/Macfarlane.html

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  • From Jim Lesurf@21:1/5 to bathwatchdog@OMITTHISgooglemail.com on Thu Nov 18 15:14:20 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, alt.windows7.general, alt.photography
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    In article <sn5m8j$1n9$1@dont-email.me>, Indy Jess John <bathwatchdog@OMITTHISgooglemail.com> wrote:
    On 18/11/2021 11:17, Java Jive wrote:
    On Thu, 18 Nov 2021 10:25:29 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf

    That said, I'm afraid I find your choice of BG/FG/Text colours quite
    hard to read. Since you posted about your 'history' I'll be cheeky
    and post a link to my own

    http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html

    Sorry, can't agree there; I find yours garish, mine more restful to
    the eyes.


    I can accept that you prefer your own screen presentation (you chose it
    so that was a given), and I note that the sans serif font on a dark background makes it easily readable. However my personal preference
    between yours and Jim's in Jim's.

    FWIW I 'road tested' my choices when I worked on my first website (Scots
    Guide to Electronics). As this was/is a University website I built I got a number of undergrads to read it and comment. I found that there was indeed
    a variety of reactions wrt layout, colours, etc. But what I settled on
    seemed most generally OK for people. Some of them - like myself - have
    sight problems and/or a form of 'Liz Dexia'. FWIW I also ensured text was allowed to 'flow to fit the window' for most body text because not everyone
    had a big screen. I also kept the text and markup simple to aid screen
    reading software. And the use of older machines and browsers.

    You can never get this perfect for all cases, but settled on the 'design'
    (sic) I've used since. It won't win any graphic design or whizz-wheel
    awards, but seems OK in general.

    BTW The 'Scots Guide' is now essentially 'frozen'. When I fully retired I
    lost my Uni email address and the pages remain as were. But I've built
    other sites since using the same old-fashioned approach. Assume people want content - or not.

    Alas, my eyesight is such that light - particularly sans - text on a darker background I find very hard to read. Hence my comment. But I assume this
    isn't a problem for most people. FWIW I also find screens harder to read
    than printed text. YMMV. :-)

    Jim

    --
    Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me. Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
    biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
    Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

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  • From Indy Jess John@21:1/5 to Java Jive on Thu Nov 18 16:58:38 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, alt.windows7.general, alt.photography
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    On 18/11/2021 15:15, Java Jive wrote:
    On Thu, 18 Nov 2021 13:59:44 +0000, Indy Jess John

    The other "wrong" one would be one that quickly tired the eyes of people
    looking at the screen for long periods of time. For those, light text
    on a dark background tires the eyes quite quickly because some visual
    rest comes from light areas with no content. Having said that, a pure
    white background is a bit bright and becomes gradually more attention
    grabbing than the text on top of it if looked at for long periods.

    I find the bright backgrounds on most websites garish and tiring to
    the eyes, that's why I chose the light on dark design that I did.

    Me too. That is why for my own stuff I use a pastel buff.

    Jim

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  • From Jim Lesurf@21:1/5 to java@evij.com.invalid on Thu Nov 18 15:38:00 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, alt.windows7.general, alt.photography
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    In article <t7rcpg5aa7ifp7vupm7r76kprtp57vnhpf@4ax.com>, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:

    I find the bright backgrounds on most websites garish and tiring to the
    eyes, that's why I chose the light on dark design that I did. --

    I also find what becomes 'black on white' difficult *on screens* because
    the active light background is very different to scatter reflection from a printed page. Causes 'glare'. Simply having a light grey background can
    help a lot. As does serif rather than sans.

    But some tint in the background can give the eye a further distinction
    without glare. Difficult to say more as it varies from person to person and with rendering setup.

    The big recent change, of course, is the use of 'mobile' devices with a relatively tiny screen. Different environment to using a desktop machine.

    Jim

    --
    Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me. Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
    biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
    Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Java Jive@21:1/5 to noise@audiomisc.co.uk on Thu Nov 18 19:12:34 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, alt.windows7.general, alt.photography
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    On Thu, 18 Nov 2021 15:38:00 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
    <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:

    In article <t7rcpg5aa7ifp7vupm7r76kprtp57vnhpf@4ax.com>, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:

    I find the bright backgrounds on most websites garish and tiring to the eyes, that's why I chose the light on dark design that I did. --

    Perhaps I could have added there that this problem used to be much
    more marked with CRT screens. I just couldn't look at pages with
    white or light backgrounds for more than around half-an-hour at a
    time. I don't find the problem nearly so bad with LCDs, but it's
    still more tiring for me than light on dark.

    As you say, each person tends to differ, and I think a lot of it comes
    down with what you're used to. There's a hell of a lot of
    pseudo-science out there about this sort of thing, some of which has
    been debunked in this ng in the past.

    I suppose one way to think about it is: "What, as far as our eyes are concerned, is most natural? Clearly it's not black on white or any
    other bright colour! The only time we have this situation in nature
    is when we look too close to the sun, or perhaps even just up at the
    sky on a hot bright day. The former is acknowledged to be bad for
    ones eyes, while it can also be quite uncomfortable looking into a
    bright blue sky, and if you see a bird of prey circling on such a day,
    usually you can't make out any or much colouration on the underside of
    its wings, because the dazzle of the sky turns it into just a
    silhouette.

    But from this viewpoint, light on dark is not exactly natural either,
    while if you use midtones for both ink and paper, then potentially you
    can run into the colour-blindness problems already mentioned. So I
    stick with light on dark as being the least bad.

    Simply having a light grey background can
    help a lot. As does serif rather than sans.

    Again, my experience is exactly the opposite, I find serif fonts bitty
    and confusing to the eye.
    --

    Fake news kills!

    ========================================================
    Please always reply to ng as the email in this post's
    header does not exist. Or use a contact address at:
    http://www.macfh.co.uk/JavaJive/JavaJive.html
    http://www.macfh.co.uk/Macfarlane/Macfarlane.html

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  • From J. P. Gilliver (John)@21:1/5 to Java Jive on Thu Nov 18 19:37:28 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, alt.windows7.general, alt.photography
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    On Thu, 18 Nov 2021 at 19:12:34, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote
    (my responses usually follow points raised):
    On Thu, 18 Nov 2021 15:38:00 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
    <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:

    In article <t7rcpg5aa7ifp7vupm7r76kprtp57vnhpf@4ax.com>, Java Jive
    <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:

    I find the bright backgrounds on most websites garish and tiring to the
    eyes, that's why I chose the light on dark design that I did. --

    Perhaps I could have added there that this problem used to be much
    more marked with CRT screens. I just couldn't look at pages with
    white or light backgrounds for more than around half-an-hour at a
    time. I don't find the problem nearly so bad with LCDs, but it's
    still more tiring for me than light on dark.

    A big difference is between frame rate and flicker rate, though it's
    less so with static material such as text. It used to be thought that
    refresh rate had to be at least not much less than 50, as otherwise the
    flicker was indeed noticeable (and in many cases headache-inducing):
    that's why (both) TV systems used interlace (OK, there were bandwidth
    reasons too; it was quite a clever invention), and most film projectors
    had a shutter that interrupted the light _twice_ a frame.

    But once the light source was constant, i. e. flicker ceased to be a
    real problem, frame rates could fall without headaches: even for moving subjects (except fast-moving, such as games or sports and some action
    films), they could (and still can) be a _lot_ lower than used to be
    thought necessary.

    As you say, each person tends to differ, and I think a lot of it comes

    (Indeed. In the pre-PC days, we had some computers that could do screen
    at either 50 or 60 hertz; I couldn't see much difference, but had
    several colleagues who definitely could [and preferred the 60].)
    []
    But from this viewpoint, light on dark is not exactly natural either,
    while if you use midtones for both ink and paper, then potentially you
    can run into the colour-blindness problems already mentioned. So I
    stick with light on dark as being the least bad.

    It seems odd that, pre-windows (roughly), light on dark was the norm,
    though not necessarily for technical reasons (one of the cheapest sets
    of home computers - the Sinclair[UK]/Timex[US] ZX80, ZX81, and Spectrum
    - used black on white).


    Simply having a light grey background can
    help a lot. As does serif rather than sans.

    Again, my experience is exactly the opposite, I find serif fonts bitty
    and confusing to the eye.

    I reluctantly admit I find sans easier, though intellectually I dislike
    them, because there are more characters that can be confused (I, l, and sometimes 1, for example) in sans. I think they (sans) look "kiddy" -
    but that's probably why they were originally used for kids, i. e. that
    they're easier.
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    Douglas Adams is always right; any technology invented after you're 35 does indeed feel against the natural order of things. - Simon Mayo, RT 2020/7/28-/8/3

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  • From J. P. Gilliver (John)@21:1/5 to All on Thu Nov 18 19:42:31 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, alt.windows7.general, alt.photography
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    On Thu, 18 Nov 2021 at 15:14:20, Jim Lesurf <noise@audiomisc.co.uk>
    wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
    []
    sight problems and/or a form of 'Liz Dexia'. FWIW I also ensured text was >allowed to 'flow to fit the window' for most body text because not everyone >had a big screen. I also kept the text and markup simple to aid screen >reading software. And the use of older machines and browsers.
    []
    No, no, you can't do that: text _must_ be designed for one width only,
    and usually a ridiculously big one, so that anyone other than the
    designers with their huge monitors has to scroll left and right to read
    them.

    Seriously, I never understood this: HTML itself reflows text
    intrinsically, so the move to fixed-width - or fixed-format - must
    initially have required _extra_ programming. (Now, it's probably the
    default in web-generating software; I doubt many write HTML code, or
    even know how to.)
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    Douglas Adams is always right; any technology invented after you're 35 does indeed feel against the natural order of things. - Simon Mayo, RT 2020/7/28-/8/3

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  • From Andy Walker@21:1/5 to All on Thu Nov 18 20:43:56 2021
    On 18/11/2021 19:42, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
    No, no, you can't do that: text _must_ be designed for one width
    only, and usually a ridiculously big one, so that anyone other than
    the designers with their huge monitors has to scroll left and right
    to read them.

    In somewhere around 2000, my desktop computer was upgraded,
    and there was around £100 going spare, so I had a high-resolution
    monitor instead of the bog-standard ones that all my colleagues were
    given. Result was that the University's top page came out tiny, with
    something like 4-pt characters. So I complained. "Oh, no, you're
    wrong, it was Professionally Designed and it looks Fantastic." "Not
    on my screen, and not on the screens of any prospective students or
    sponsors who also happen to have good [or for that matter bad]
    monitors." "Well, we've just checked, and it's Right. There's
    something wrong with your computer." I tried to explain what they'd
    done, but inevitably got nowhere. Left them to it.

    --
    Andy Walker, Nottingham.
    Andy's music pages: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music
    Composer of the day: www.cuboid.me.uk/andy/Music/Composers/Boccherini

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  • From Indy Jess John@21:1/5 to All on Thu Nov 18 20:35:00 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, alt.windows7.general, alt.photography
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    On 18/11/2021 19:42, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
    On Thu, 18 Nov 2021 at 15:14:20, Jim Lesurf<noise@audiomisc.co.uk>
    wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
    []
    sight problems and/or a form of 'Liz Dexia'. FWIW I also ensured text was
    allowed to 'flow to fit the window' for most body text because not everyone >> had a big screen. I also kept the text and markup simple to aid screen
    reading software. And the use of older machines and browsers.
    []
    No, no, you can't do that: text _must_ be designed for one width only,
    and usually a ridiculously big one, so that anyone other than the
    designers with their huge monitors has to scroll left and right to read
    them.

    Seriously, I never understood this: HTML itself reflows text
    intrinsically, so the move to fixed-width - or fixed-format - must
    initially have required _extra_ programming. (Now, it's probably the
    default in web-generating software; I doubt many write HTML code, or
    even know how to.)

    HTML reflows within the width it has either been given explicitly or it
    has derived from the inheritance of earlier properties.

    If the width is explicitly stated as being wider than the reader's
    screen then it believes what it is told and the reader will have to
    scroll to read it. If the width is expressed as a percentage (not
    exceeding 100%), then the presentation uses that percentage of the width
    of the viewing screen (or table column or predefined area), and
    scrolling is never necessary.

    I do write HTML code, though I agree that most don't.

    Jim

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  • From Folderol@21:1/5 to G6JPG@255soft.uk on Thu Nov 18 22:28:01 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, alt.windows7.general, alt.photography
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    On Thu, 18 Nov 2021 19:42:31 +0000
    "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

    On Thu, 18 Nov 2021 at 15:14:20, Jim Lesurf <noise@audiomisc.co.uk>
    wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
    []
    sight problems and/or a form of 'Liz Dexia'. FWIW I also ensured text was >>allowed to 'flow to fit the window' for most body text because not everyone >>had a big screen. I also kept the text and markup simple to aid screen >>reading software. And the use of older machines and browsers.
    []
    No, no, you can't do that: text _must_ be designed for one width only,
    and usually a ridiculously big one, so that anyone other than the
    designers with their huge monitors has to scroll left and right to read
    them.

    Seriously, I never understood this: HTML itself reflows text
    intrinsically, so the move to fixed-width - or fixed-format - must
    initially have required _extra_ programming. (Now, it's probably the
    default in web-generating software; I doubt many write HTML code, or
    even know how to.)

    I do!
    Oh, and in the Yoshimi user guide I flow text :)

    --
    Basic

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  • From Jim Lesurf@21:1/5 to java@evij.com.invalid on Fri Nov 19 09:11:35 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, alt.windows7.general, alt.photography
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    In article <ug8dpgdac843qmgqhcjqtoge08kmnsc26r@4ax.com>, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
    On Thu, 18 Nov 2021 15:38:00 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
    <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:

    In article <t7rcpg5aa7ifp7vupm7r76kprtp57vnhpf@4ax.com>, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:

    I find the bright backgrounds on most websites garish and tiring to
    the eyes, that's why I chose the light on dark design that I did. --


    I suppose one way to think about it is: "What, as far as our eyes are concerned, is most natural? Clearly it's not black on white or any
    other bright colour! The only time we have this situation in nature is
    when we look too close to the sun, or perhaps even just up at the sky on
    a hot bright day.

    Agreed. However I'd make two points.

    1) That for many years the bulk of 'reading' in many cultures has been dark black/brown ink on 'whitish' paper/parchment/etc

    2) That 'in the wild' much of what we see comes from a scene with blue-white sky illumination. Not really 'white'.

    The difference wrt a screen is that diffuse reflection is 'natural' but
    screens tend to be the light source. So can be harder to set such as to not 'glare'.

    FWIW Perhaps my longest-term best friend was for many years a superb
    graphic designer and photographer so we had many conversations about these topics. Quite, erm, illuminating for us both given my interest in the
    physics related to it.

    Jim

    --
    Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me. Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
    biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
    Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

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  • From Jim Lesurf@21:1/5 to G6JPG@255soft.uk on Fri Nov 19 09:13:20 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, alt.windows7.general, alt.photography
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    In article <MzAT7C54tqlhFwUw@255soft.uk>, J. P. Gilliver (John) <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
    A big difference is between frame rate and flicker rate, though it's
    less so with static material such as text. It used to be thought that
    refresh rate had to be at least not much less than 50, as otherwise the flicker was indeed noticeable (and in many cases headache-inducing):
    that's why (both) TV systems used interlace (OK, there were bandwidth
    reasons too; it was quite a clever invention), and most film projectors
    had a shutter that interrupted the light _twice_ a frame.

    With the old CRT monitors I tended not to see visible flicker, but the
    image somehow got more 'solid' or 'real' when the frame rate was above 60Hz even when nothing on-screen was being moved or changed.

    Jim

    --
    Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me. Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
    biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
    Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

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  • From Jim Lesurf@21:1/5 to G6JPG@255soft.uk on Fri Nov 19 09:20:32 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, alt.windows7.general, alt.photography
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    In article <bD3WHj5nyqlhFw00@255soft.uk>, J. P. Gilliver (John) <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
    No, no, you can't do that: text _must_ be designed for one width only,
    and usually a ridiculously big one, so that anyone other than the
    designers with their huge monitors has to scroll left and right to read
    them.

    Seriously, I never understood this: HTML itself reflows text
    intrinsically, so the move to fixed-width - or fixed-format - must
    initially have required _extra_ programming. (Now, it's probably the
    default in web-generating software; I doubt many write HTML code, or
    even know how to.)

    I started off with HTML 1.x and hand coded using a 'plain text' editor.
    Since then I've moved on a bit and use !TechWriter (a RISC OS Technical document processor) to initially create the text. It can export plain HTML
    as well as rtf, word, pdf, postscript, etc. So serves as a common starting point for multiple output routes.

    I then tweak the HTML by hand, but using a quasi-plain-text editor
    (!HTMLEdit) that shows me the code so I can either edit entirely by hand,
    or use a set of shortcuts that edit markup.

    This makes it easy to get simple code and avoid 'bloat', etc.

    It's a shame more people don't know about !TechWriter, though. I was sent a copy to review in 1992 because I routinely have to write documents with
    maths. Fell in love with it as the easiest and best way to get results that easily follow the standard rules for layout of equations, etc. This is an aside, though. :-)

    Jim

    --
    Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me. Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
    biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
    Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

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  • From Jim Lesurf@21:1/5 to All on Fri Nov 19 09:34:44 2021
    In somewhere around 2000, my desktop computer was upgraded, and there was around £100 going spare, so I had a high-resolution monitor instead
    of the bog-standard ones that all my colleagues were given. Result was
    that the University's top page came out tiny, with something like 4-pt characters. So I complained. "Oh, no, you're wrong, it was
    Professionally Designed and it looks Fantastic." "Not on my screen, and
    not on the screens of any prospective students or sponsors who also
    happen to have good [or for that matter bad] monitors." "Well, we've
    just checked, and it's Right. There's something wrong with your
    computer." I tried to explain what they'd done, but inevitably got
    nowhere. Left them to it.

    The basic problem is, I think, due to the following factors coming to
    dominate:

    1) Many websites are created *to look impressive on the boss's or client's desktop machine*. If they like it, you get paid even if the result looks
    awful to mere customers/readers.

    2) Generated by people who simply use a 'magical' program that created the webpage without the writer/designer having the slightest clue or sight of
    the actual HTML + css + (bugger)scripting +.... which gets crufted into it.

    3) The latest 'whizz wheels' MUST be used to impress rather than inform
    or make the content easier to use. If a browser can't cope with this
    it can be ignored even if it then can't make sense of the content.

    4) No one then checks what the result is like on a machine running other
    OSs with other rendering programs on different machines with various screen sizes, etc. Let alone any machine that more than a year old.

    5) if they do, it becomes "blame the victim" as per above. "YOU need
    to 'upgrade' " to suit the webpage.

    If anyone *does* look at the resulting 'code' they find it is a mess of
    cruft which tends to 'bind' layout and rendering in a way that interferes
    with any user preferences or circumstances. It is also usually a much
    bigger file which used to matter a lot - particularly when writing content
    you wanted people in 'less developed' places to have a chance of accessing.

    Alas, all too often...

    Professional = "Does it for money" -> Follow the money to get paid. -> 1 above...

    I've never been a 'professional' in the above sense. Just someone who
    wanted to make information available that I thought some people might find interesting/useful. If my poor taste in terms of graphic design comes
    though, fair enough, provided most people can read the content OK.

    Of course, you can't please everyone. But it is at least trivial to allow things like text reflow and let their browser set the default fonts, text sizes. etc. Not inflict a paralising css, etc, on their choice.

    I'll stop ranting there. :-)

    Jim

    --
    Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me. Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
    biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
    Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

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  • From Gordon@21:1/5 to Jim Lesurf on Sun Nov 21 03:29:25 2021
    On 2021-11-18, Jim Lesurf <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
    In article <sn3vqu$9hs$1@dont-email.me>, NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

    http://www.macfh.co.uk/Macfarlane/FamilyHistory/FamilyHistory.shtml

    Thanks again to all who have contributed their advice.

    Thanks. Interesting. :-)

    That said, I'm afraid I find your choice of BG/FG/Text colours quite hard
    to read. Since you posted about your 'history' I'll be cheeky and post a
    link to my own

    http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html

    which uses a simpler layout and colours that I find much easier. And may
    also interest some here given the xposting. Apologies to anyone who
    objects to xposting so many groups. Not something I'd usually do.

    Slainte,

    Jim

    The street photo in the Welcome to My World section stuck me, it is just a street in the Covid lockdowns.

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  • From Java Jive@21:1/5 to Java Jive on Fri May 27 14:10:41 2022
    XPost: alt.os.linux, alt.windows7.general, alt.photography
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    On 17/11/2021 21:26, Java Jive wrote:
    [For obvious reasons, this is a deliberate cross-post.]

    Many people in these ngs over the last year or two have been kind
    enough to help me with useful advice as I have struggled to scan my
    way through a trunkful of family documents going back to a parchment
    (animal skin) from the reign of Queen Anne. While not yet complete
    (will it ever be?), a major milestone has been reached today with the
    release of an archive to the general public. For those interested,
    it's here:

    http://www.macfh.co.uk/Macfarlane/FamilyHistory/FamilyHistory.shtml

    Thanks again to all who have contributed their advice.

    Currently at my brother's, picking up the next batch of work on this
    (about the same gargantuan amount again, I fear!), and one of the first
    things I find is the following old-fashioned joke printed on a slip of
    paper:

    "If your wife wants to learn to drive, don't stand in her way."

    [Lest anyone mistakenly think I subscribe to this view, my mother was a
    WAAF driving instructor during WW2, and was the best driver in the
    family. I have made for our private use a map of the places we have
    photos of taken during Scottish holidays, the southernmost ones are
    Edinburgh and Dalry, the northernmost Gruinard Bay, featuring almost
    everywhere in between, though not the east coast, and of course we
    usually drove up from southern England to get there. Only now does it
    strike me how many hundreds of miles Ma, and later my stepfather, must
    have driven on these family holidays.]

    --

    Fake news kills!

    I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
    www.macfh.co.uk

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  • From Davey@21:1/5 to Java Jive on Fri May 27 15:24:17 2022
    XPost: alt.os.linux, alt.windows7.general, alt.photography
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    On Fri, 27 May 2022 14:10:41 +0100
    Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:

    On 17/11/2021 21:26, Java Jive wrote:
    [For obvious reasons, this is a deliberate cross-post.]

    Many people in these ngs over the last year or two have been kind
    enough to help me with useful advice as I have struggled to scan my
    way through a trunkful of family documents going back to a parchment (animal skin) from the reign of Queen Anne. While not yet complete
    (will it ever be?), a major milestone has been reached today with
    the release of an archive to the general public. For those
    interested, it's here:

    http://www.macfh.co.uk/Macfarlane/FamilyHistory/FamilyHistory.shtml

    Thanks again to all who have contributed their advice.

    Currently at my brother's, picking up the next batch of work on this
    (about the same gargantuan amount again, I fear!), and one of the
    first things I find is the following old-fashioned joke printed on a
    slip of paper:

    "If your wife wants to learn to drive, don't stand in her way."

    [Lest anyone mistakenly think I subscribe to this view, my mother was
    a WAAF driving instructor during WW2, and was the best driver in the
    family. I have made for our private use a map of the places we have
    photos of taken during Scottish holidays, the southernmost ones are Edinburgh and Dalry, the northernmost Gruinard Bay, featuring almost everywhere in between, though not the east coast, and of course we
    usually drove up from southern England to get there. Only now does
    it strike me how many hundreds of miles Ma, and later my stepfather,
    must have driven on these family holidays.]


    I remember our Dad driving the family from Essex to The Lake District,
    back in the 1950s, with a caravan behind, then a three hundred mile trip
    that took all day. Later on, with a different tow vehicle and caravan,
    we got as far as Zurich. What adventures they were then!
    --
    Davey.

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  • From NY@21:1/5 to Java Jive on Fri May 27 16:55:45 2022
    XPost: alt.os.linux, alt.windows7.general, alt.photography
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    "Java Jive" <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote in message news:t6qiki$s3j$1@dont-email.me...
    [Lest anyone mistakenly think I subscribe to this view, my mother was a
    WAAF driving instructor during WW2, and was the best driver in the family.
    I have made for our private use a map of the places we have photos of
    taken during Scottish holidays, the southernmost ones are Edinburgh and Dalry, the northernmost Gruinard Bay, featuring almost everywhere in
    between, though not the east coast, and of course we usually drove up from southern England to get there. Only now does it strike me how many
    hundreds of miles Ma, and later my stepfather, must have driven on these family holidays.]

    And she'll have been taught (and taught others) to drive vehicles with no synchromesh, and therefore to perform double-declutching. Anyone who can
    master that skill deserves much kudos. Nowadays it is impossible to learn
    true DDC to non-synchromesh standards because (virtually) all cars on the
    road today have synchromesh on all gears so you have no way of knowing
    whether or not you have matched the engine and gearbox speeds sufficiently accurately for the gear to engage. No matter what you do, you can always *engage* any gear - you could engage first at 70, as long as you don't let
    the clutch up!!!!! Good drivers try to match the speeds when bringing up the clutch *after* the gear had successfully engaged, so both plates are going
    at the same speed, but that's a very different thing. Clutchless gearchanges can be mastered, but in that case you have instant feedback: until you reach the matching speed, the gear will not engage; once you reach the right speed
    it slips in. In DDC, you are doing it offline: you have to hope that the
    engine speed is correct, then disengage the engine (so you've no way of
    making minor tweaks), and if it doesn't work you have to let the clutch up, tweak the engine speed, declutch and try again: effectively you've got a
    system with a delay in its feedback loop.

    I did once have the misfortune to be a passenger in a car driven by someone
    who had been driving for probably 20 years (she was not a new driver) and
    she had the habit of coming right off the power, engaging the new gear,
    letting the clutch up on an idling engine (with one hell of a lurch!) and
    then applying power. I'd only been driving a few years but I'd been taught
    the rudiments of rev-matching by my instructor (ex police Class 1
    instructor) who was keen to show newly-passed drivers how to do it
    "properly". Should I say anything? After she apologised after a particularly bad lurch, I very tactfully suggested that maybe there was another way (I avoided the word "better"!) which might reduce the lurches. She thought it
    was her car and asked me to drive to see. Allowing for a couple of minutes
    to get used to a strange car's clutch bite point and graunchy
    gear-selection, I drove it "differently" and she was mystified. Without
    saying "this is how you should do it", I described what I did, and there was
    a wonderful moment of realisation and frustration "Ah, I didn't know you
    could do that". Without a rev-counter, it's a bit more difficult to judge
    the correct engine speed (with my present car I know that each change of
    gear is roughly an increase/decrease of 500 rpm) but you can still do it my engine note - at the very least keep the engine revs constant, and ideally increase when changing down or decrease when changing up... anything but let the engine revs fall to idling and let the clutch up on a "dead" engine.

    There was an age and seniority issue (she was my manager) which is why I was bending over backwards to be tactful and to avoid her feeling silly. Next
    time I rode with her, she was fine, and she joked that she'd been
    practicing. So it wasn't "typical woman driver" - it was just that she had
    been taught very badly and had never experimented with doing things
    differently to what she'd been taught. She was a people manager rather than
    an engineer - maybe my scientific/engineering background made me more likely
    to experiment "what if".

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  • From Folderol@21:1/5 to me@privacy.invalid on Fri May 27 18:23:38 2022
    XPost: alt.os.linux, alt.windows7.general, alt.photography
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    On Fri, 27 May 2022 16:55:45 +0100
    "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
    <snip>

    There was an age and seniority issue (she was my manager) which is why I was >bending over backwards to be tactful and to avoid her feeling silly. Next >time I rode with her, she was fine, and she joked that she'd been
    practicing. So it wasn't "typical woman driver" - it was just that she had >been taught very badly and had never experimented with doing things >differently to what she'd been taught. She was a people manager rather than >an engineer - maybe my scientific/engineering background made me more likely >to experiment "what if".

    During WW2 my Mum was cherry-picked from the land girls and trained as a mechanic. By the end of that time she was able to drive and maintain any
    non track-laying vehicle.

    Afterwards, it wasn't until the mid 1950s that the family got a car and she needed to get a license. In those days it was not unusual to just go for a test without any driving lessons, and to the examiners amazement, she handled the car
    near perfectly (in a rare moment of honesty, Dad admitted she drove better than him). She was also the scourge of any motor mechanic who tried to con her :)

    --
    Basic

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  • From MB@21:1/5 to All on Fri May 27 18:43:36 2022
    XPost: alt.os.linux, alt.windows7.general, alt.photography
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    On 27/05/2022 16:55, NY wrote:
    Anyone who can
    master that skill deserves much kudos.

    It is surprising how quickly you get used to it, I think our first
    couple of Land Rovers at work needed it.

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  • From Java Jive@21:1/5 to All on Fri May 27 22:53:08 2022
    XPost: alt.os.linux, alt.windows7.general, alt.photography
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    Re double de-clutching ...

    On 27/05/2022 18:43, MB wrote:

    On 27/05/2022 16:55, NY wrote:
    Anyone who can
    master that skill deserves much kudos.

    It is surprising how quickly you get used to it, I think our first
    couple of Land Rovers at work needed it.

    Yes, in the days I worked on farms, it was considered best practice to
    DDC tractors. That is to say, they had a 'crash' gearbox, so could take
    a bashing, but I was taught to DDC by the farm's foreman, and when you
    got it just about right you could change gear without anything worse
    than a satisfying 'clunk'!

    --

    Fake news kills!

    I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
    www.macfh.co.uk

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  • From Ian Jackson@21:1/5 to java@evij.com.invalid on Sat May 28 13:53:09 2022
    XPost: alt.os.linux, alt.windows7.general, alt.photography
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    In message <t6rh83$rqb$1@dont-email.me>, Java Jive
    <java@evij.com.invalid> writes
    Re double de-clutching ...

    On 27/05/2022 18:43, MB wrote:

    On 27/05/2022 16:55, NY wrote:
    Anyone who can
    master that skill deserves much kudos.
    It is surprising how quickly you get used to it, I think our first
    couple of Land Rovers at work needed it.

    Yes, in the days I worked on farms, it was considered best practice to
    DDC tractors. That is to say, they had a 'crash' gearbox, so could
    take a bashing, but I was taught to DDC by the farm's foreman, and when
    you got it just about right you could change gear without anything
    worse than a satisfying 'clunk'!

    60 years ago I learned to drive on a car with (deliberately) no
    synchromesh on 1st, and needed to know how to double-declutch. I still
    do it (although the actual accuracy my rev matching is rather
    questionable!). With some cars I could drive without using the clutch
    (very useful when, say, the hydraulics had failed - although starting
    off and stopping was a bit scary) - but modern cars won't let you do
    this.
    --
    Ian

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  • From williamwright@21:1/5 to Ian Jackson on Sat May 28 14:17:32 2022
    XPost: alt.os.linux, alt.windows7.general, alt.photography
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    On 28/05/2022 13:53, Ian Jackson wrote:
    In message <t6rh83$rqb$1@dont-email.me>, Java Jive
    <java@evij.com.invalid> writes
    Re double de-clutching ...

    On 27/05/2022 18:43, MB wrote:

    On 27/05/2022 16:55, NY wrote:
    Anyone who can
    master that skill deserves much kudos.
     It is surprising how quickly you get used to it, I think our first
    couple of Land Rovers at work needed it.

    Yes, in the days I worked on farms, it was considered best practice to
    DDC tractors.  That is to say, they had a 'crash' gearbox, so could
    take a bashing, but I was taught to DDC by the farm's foreman, and
    when you got it just about right you could change gear without
    anything worse than a satisfying 'clunk'!

    60 years ago I learned to drive on a car with (deliberately) no
    synchromesh on 1st, and needed to know how to double-declutch. I still
    do it (although the actual accuracy my rev matching is rather
    questionable!). With some cars I could drive without using the clutch
    (very useful when, say, the hydraulics had failed - although starting
    off and stopping was a bit scary) - but modern cars won't let you do this.

    I learnt to drive on a 1948 Morris ambulance. I always double declutch.
    Very useful for steep hills and that. I heel and toe as well. I've never
    worn a clutch out. When I bought my (1990) tractor the young bloke said,
    "Don't try to change gear while you're moving coz it can't be done.
    Select a gear and ratio then set off." I found that I could change gear
    whilst moving with no trouble.

    Bill (smug)

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  • From bad sector@21:1/5 to williamwright on Sat May 28 10:00:06 2022
    XPost: alt.os.linux, alt.windows7.general, alt.photography
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    On 5/28/22 09:17, williamwright wrote:
    On 28/05/2022 13:53, Ian Jackson wrote:
    In message <t6rh83$rqb$1@dont-email.me>, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> writes
    Re double de-clutching ...

    On 27/05/2022 18:43, MB wrote:

    On 27/05/2022 16:55, NY wrote:
    Anyone who can
    master that skill deserves much kudos.
     It is surprising how quickly you get used to it, I think our first couple of Land Rovers at work needed it.

    Yes, in the days I worked on farms, it was considered best practice to DDC tractors.  That is to say, they had a 'crash' gearbox, so could take a bashing, but I was taught to DDC by the farm's foreman, and when you got it just about right you could
    change gear without anything worse than a satisfying 'clunk'!

    60 years ago I learned to drive on a car with (deliberately) no synchromesh on 1st, and needed to know how to double-declutch. I still do it (although the actual accuracy my rev matching is rather questionable!). With some cars I could drive without
    using the clutch (very useful when, say, the hydraulics had failed - although starting off and stopping was a bit scary) - but modern cars won't let you do this.

    I learnt to drive on a 1948 Morris ambulance. I always double declutch. Very useful for steep hills and that. I heel and toe as well. I've never worn a clutch out. When I bought my (1990) tractor the young bloke said, "Don't try to change gear while
    you're moving coz it can't be done. Select a gear and ratio then set off." I found that I could change gear whilst moving with no trouble.

    Bill (smug)

    I learned on a '55 ford truck on the farm, it seldom needed double-clutching but I honed the skill to perfection only because it gave me a chance to rev the engine in a skill show-off while coasting in an otherwise idle turn into the ice-cream parlor
    parking where the 'action' was. In them days if you were tall enough for your head to be seen over the city-hall counter and held $2 high you got an unlimited driver's licence, just like that. If you didn't get one as soon as thus qualified you was
    called names...

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  • From bad sector@21:1/5 to Java Jive on Sat May 28 10:51:05 2022
    XPost: alt.os.linux, alt.windows7.general, alt.photography
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    On 5/27/22 09:10, Java Jive wrote:
    On 17/11/2021 21:26, Java Jive wrote:
    [For obvious reasons, this is a deliberate cross-post.]

    Many people in these ngs over the last year or two have been kind
    enough to help me with useful advice as I have struggled to scan my
    way through a trunkful of family documents going back to a parchment
    (animal skin) from the reign of Queen Anne.  While not yet complete
    (will it ever be?), a major milestone has been reached today with the
    release of an archive to the general public.  For those interested,
    it's here:

    http://www.macfh.co.uk/Macfarlane/FamilyHistory/FamilyHistory.shtml

    that's not bad, actually!

    Thanks again to all who have contributed their advice.

    Currently at my brother's, picking up the next batch of work on this (about the same gargantuan amount again, I fear!), and one of the first things I find is the following old-fashioned joke printed on a slip of paper:

      "If your wife wants to learn to drive, don't stand in her way."

    I'm working on something similar but am going against the grain by using 'iconized' art instead of the historical encre-et-plume drawings. After all the original purpose was easy and positive identification from a distance on the battle-field, very much
    resembling the definition of a graphical icon as a symbol that provides unique identification in the smallest possible number of pixels (even if many pixels be used in production). I'm looking for a graphic artist to clean-up one of my own iconized
    elements, an open-helmet used in the day to convey something akin to 'a lack of unconditional hostility' :-))

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  • From JNugent@21:1/5 to All on Sat May 28 15:24:18 2022
    XPost: alt.os.linux, alt.windows7.general, alt.photography
    XPost: uk.tech.digital-tv

    On 27/05/2022 04:55 pm, NY wrote:
    "Java Jive" <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote in message news:t6qiki$s3j$1@dont-email.me...
    [Lest anyone mistakenly think I subscribe to this view, my mother was
    a WAAF driving instructor during WW2, and was the best driver in the
    family. I have made for our private use a map of the places we have
    photos of taken during  Scottish holidays, the southernmost ones are
    Edinburgh and Dalry, the northernmost Gruinard Bay, featuring almost
    everywhere in between, though not the east coast, and of course we
    usually drove up from southern England to get there.  Only now does it
    strike me how many hundreds of miles Ma, and later my stepfather, must
    have driven on these family holidays.]

    And she'll have been taught (and taught others) to drive vehicles with
    no synchromesh, and therefore to perform double-declutching. Anyone who
    can master that skill deserves much kudos. Nowadays it is impossible to
    learn true DDC to non-synchromesh standards because (virtually) all cars
    on the road today have synchromesh on all gears so you have no way of
    knowing whether or not you have matched the engine and gearbox speeds sufficiently accurately for the gear to engage. No matter what you do,
    you can always *engage* any gear - you could engage first at 70, as long
    as you don't let the clutch up!!!!! Good drivers try to match the speeds
    when bringing up the clutch *after* the gear had successfully engaged,
    so both plates are going at the same speed, but that's a very different thing. Clutchless gearchanges can be mastered, but in that case you have instant feedback: until you reach the matching speed, the gear will not engage; once you reach the right speed it slips in. In DDC, you are
    doing it offline: you have to hope that the engine speed is correct,
    then disengage the engine (so you've no way of making minor tweaks), and
    if it doesn't work you have to let the clutch up, tweak the engine
    speed, declutch and try again: effectively you've got a system with a
    delay in its feedback loop.

    I did once have the misfortune to be a passenger in a car driven by
    someone who had been driving for probably 20 years (she was not a new
    driver) and she had the habit of coming right off the power, engaging
    the new gear, letting the clutch up on an idling engine (with one hell
    of a lurch!) and then applying power. I'd only been driving a few years
    but I'd been taught the rudiments of rev-matching by my instructor (ex
    police Class 1 instructor) who was keen to show newly-passed drivers how
    to do it "properly". Should I say anything? After she apologised after a particularly bad lurch, I very tactfully suggested that maybe there was another way (I avoided the word "better"!) which might reduce the
    lurches. She thought it was her car and asked me to drive to see.
    Allowing for a couple of minutes to get used to a strange car's clutch
    bite point and graunchy gear-selection, I drove it "differently" and she
    was mystified. Without saying "this is how you should do it", I
    described what I did, and there was a wonderful moment of realisation
    and frustration "Ah, I didn't know you could do that". Without a
    rev-counter, it's a bit more difficult to judge the correct engine speed (with my present car I know that each change of gear is roughly an increase/decrease of 500 rpm) but you can still do it my engine note -
    at the very least keep the engine revs constant, and ideally increase
    when changing down or decrease when changing up... anything but let the engine revs fall to idling and let the clutch up on a "dead" engine.

    There was an age and seniority issue (she was my manager) which is why I
    was bending over backwards to be tactful and to avoid her feeling silly.
    Next time I rode with her, she was fine, and she joked that she'd been practicing. So it wasn't "typical woman driver" - it was just that she
    had been taught very badly and had never experimented with doing things differently to what she'd been taught. She was a people manager rather
    than an engineer - maybe my scientific/engineering background made me
    more likely to experiment "what if".

    The cars I learned in (and tended to own for the first few years after
    passing my test) invariably didn't have synchromesh on 1st gear and
    often, it was badly-worn on 2nd, meaning that double-declutching was a necessary skill if you needed to change down that low whilst on the move.

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