• RE: Email Error

    From Fredxx@21:1/5 to Jeff Gaines on Wed Jan 8 17:04:17 2025
    XPost: uk.d-i-y

    On 08/01/2025 16:48, Jeff Gaines wrote:

    I am getting an error in sending emails from my own domain address but
    via my ISP's server:

    [SMTP] Cannot send message (Sending email "Re[2]: xxx" failed with
    error: Email body not accepted due to the following reason:
        "5.7.1 <END-OF-MESSAGE>: End-of-data rejected: SPF Incorrect
    ")

    Any clues on where the error might be occurring based on:

    My ISP is PlusNet.
    I am sending it via my own domain via PlusNet (I have no idea how that
    works)
    I use em Client which has recently been upgraded.

    It went successfully using my outlook.com address from the same email
    client, where do I start looking first?

    Can you check using:
    https://mxtoolbox.com/spf.aspx

    If a problem I would suggest modifying your hosting service to add the
    SPF record to your domain?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Jeff Gaines@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jan 8 16:48:19 2025
    XPost: uk.d-i-y

    I am getting an error in sending emails from my own domain address but via
    my ISP's server:

    [SMTP] Cannot send message (Sending email "Re[2]: xxx" failed with error:
    Email body not accepted due to the following reason:
    "5.7.1 <END-OF-MESSAGE>: End-of-data rejected: SPF Incorrect
    ")

    Any clues on where the error might be occurring based on:

    My ISP is PlusNet.
    I am sending it via my own domain via PlusNet (I have no idea how that
    works)
    I use em Client which has recently been upgraded.

    It went successfully using my outlook.com address from the same email
    client, where do I start looking first?


    --
    Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
    We chose to do this not because it is easy but because we thought it would
    be easy.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Andy Burns@21:1/5 to Jeff Gaines on Wed Jan 8 17:12:32 2025
    XPost: uk.d-i-y

    Jeff Gaines wrote:

    "5.7.1 <END-OF-MESSAGE>: End-of-data rejected: SPF Incorrect")
    I am sending it via my own domain via PlusNet
    You need an SPF record in the DNS for your domain, speak to whoever
    hosts your domain.

    e.g. here is what I use for my domain to allow sending via plusnet's servers

    v=spf1 a mx include:_spf-internal.plus.net
    include:_spf-internal2.plus.net ~all

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From HVS@21:1/5 to Jeff Gaines on Wed Jan 8 17:32:25 2025
    XPost: uk.d-i-y

    On 08 Jan 2025, Jeff Gaines wrote


    I am getting an error in sending emails from my own domain address
    but via my ISP's server:

    [SMTP] Cannot send message (Sending email "Re[2]: xxx" failed with
    error: Email body not accepted due to the following reason:
    "5.7.1 <END-OF-MESSAGE>: End-of-data rejected: SPF Incorrect
    ")

    Any clues on where the error might be occurring based on:

    My ISP is PlusNet.
    I am sending it via my own domain via PlusNet (I have no idea how
    that works)
    I use em Client which has recently been upgraded.

    It went successfully using my outlook.com address from the same
    email client, where do I start looking first?

    Not sure, but are the emails apparently originating from your own
    domain or email address?

    I've been plagued for the past couple of months with phishing emails
    that present themselves as coming from my domain email manager, and
    spoof the "from" field to make it look as if they're coming from my
    own address and domain. The claim is that my message storage space
    is full or my message volume limit has been reached, and trying to
    get me to click on a link to change my login details.

    It's all nonsense, but the annoying thing is that since the spoofed
    "from" address makes it appear that the emails originate from my own
    domain, I haven't wanted to block them as spam in case the filter
    just looks at the apparent address and I wind up blocking myself.

    So I've just been manually deleting them, as I'm not sure how to
    safely block them automatically.

    Annoying.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Andy Burns@21:1/5 to HVS on Wed Jan 8 18:02:03 2025
    XPost: uk.d-i-y

    HVS wrote:

    Jeff Gaines wrote

    I am getting an error in sending emails from my own domain address
    but via my ISP's server:

    Not sure, but are the emails apparently originating from your own
    domain or email address?

    He's not having problems with received email, but he's being blocked
    from sending.

    I've been plagued for the past couple of months with phishing emails
    that present themselves as coming from my domain email manager, and
    spoof the "from" field to make it look as if they're coming from my
    own address and domain. The claim is that my message storage space
    is full or my message volume limit has been reached, and trying to
    get me to click on a link to change my login details.

    It's all nonsense, but the annoying thing is that since the spoofed
    "from" address makes it appear that the emails originate from my own
    domain, I haven't wanted to block them as spam in case the filter
    just looks at the apparent address and I wind up blocking myself.

    So I've just been manually deleting them, as I'm not sure how to
    safely block them automatically.
    If you have your own domain, you should set an SPF record that lists the servers authorised to send on your behalf, that should make it easier
    for emails from unauthorised servers to be rejected.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Alan J. Wylie@21:1/5 to Jeff Gaines on Wed Jan 8 19:00:09 2025
    XPost: uk.d-i-y

    "Jeff Gaines" <jgnewsid@outlook.com> writes:

    I am getting an error in sending emails from my own domain address but
    via my ISP's server:

    ...

    My ISP is PlusNet.

    Are you sending it to connect to Plusnet's port 25 (SMTP), 465 (Secure
    SMTP) or 587 (submission) on their server "relay.plus.net"?

    https://www.plus.net/help/email-guides/how-to-set-up-plusnet-email/

    Port 25 is the general mail transfer port, 465 and 587 require
    authentication, which might bypass SPF checks.

    When you say "my own domain address" do you mean a personal domain such
    as my "wylie.me.uk".

    If so, do you have an SPF and DMARC record set in DNS, and are you signing
    your outgoing emails with DKIM? If not, you will have serious
    deliverability issues to e.g. Google. DKIM requires that the domain used
    in your email address matches that used for the signing key.

    $ dig +short -t txt wylie.me.uk
    "v=spf1 mx a -all"

    $ dig +short -t txt _dmarc.wylie.me.uk
    "v=DMARC1; p=none; rua=mailto:...@wylie.me.uk"

    $ dig +short -t txt mydkim006._domainkey.wylie.me.uk
    "v=DKIM1; k=rsa; p=MIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEAu2Ut003KeaCrfWe5woqHoWuPYvV4AKeI8ytzn0ddam1BiRO1QUGpTzhdYiXASdhjxkFetoFF1BeRmE8kqbaDNK8ttPWa7fOvqtR+kluBs9rRvomWj8eFZcxsXABLYs6gQSNvuxDZipA2wL/FPaAOEw/pOCAQ70say4/ww8JZMqMde9pfKp0obNwOudzL" "
    jLgSXQaWAOXcNOMy+ai8WulUOdoAxbGhHdpFSLeOOZYQqzV/Tm6kDhOtGWBSzf+dR/hhelRd0A4VvA20laRMdVhMnLbiZycMTB7wWAojPHixQSHj3w0djiNzm41/J/j1ypQbEouBb2P+RE0El4CSvyVgcwIDAQAB"


    --
    Alan J. Wylie https://www.wylie.me.uk/ mailto:<alan@wylie.me.uk>

    Dance like no-one's watching. / Encrypt like everyone is.
    Security is inversely proportional to convenience

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andy Burns@21:1/5 to Alan J. Wylie on Wed Jan 8 19:14:42 2025
    XPost: uk.d-i-y

    Alan J. Wylie wrote:

    If so, do you have an SPF and DMARC record set in DNS, and are you signing your outgoing emails with DKIM? If not, you will have serious
    deliverability issues

    I think you're stating it a little too strongly, implying that all three
    of SPF, DKIM and DMARC are required.

    Certainly email services have rightly been getting stricter in their requirements, but in general either SPF or DKIM will see mail accepted, provided that everything matches, and for most users SPF is easiest to organise.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Alan J. Wylie@21:1/5 to Andy Burns on Wed Jan 8 19:36:32 2025
    XPost: uk.d-i-y

    Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> writes:

    Alan J. Wylie wrote:

    If so, do you have an SPF and DMARC record set in DNS, and are you signing >> your outgoing emails with DKIM? If not, you will have serious
    deliverability issues

    I think you're stating it a little too strongly, implying that all
    three of SPF, DKIM and DMARC are required.

    Certainly email services have rightly been getting stricter in their requirements, but in general either SPF or DKIM will see mail
    accepted, provided that everything matches, and for most users SPF is
    easiest to organise.

    I run a mailing list for my mountaineering club. Previously, mail was
    delivered fine with the From: address being that of the sender, no DMARC
    record and any DKIM signature being the original one from the senders
    mail provider. At the end of December, Outlook, Yahoo, Tiscali/OXCS and VirginMedia started rejecting mails due to DMARC failures. I've had to
    set up a DMARC record for the club's domain, ensure that any original
    DKIM signature is removed and one with the club's signature added.

    Only today did I solve the problem that there was now no indication of
    who sent emails to the list, unless the sender added their name in the
    body. mlmmj (the mailing list software I use) only added that facility
    last week, with a comment about DMARC.

    The big email services are definitely getting stricter

    --
    Alan J. Wylie https://www.wylie.me.uk/ mailto:<alan@wylie.me.uk>

    Dance like no-one's watching. / Encrypt like everyone is.
    Security is inversely proportional to convenience

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andy Burns@21:1/5 to Alan J. Wylie on Wed Jan 8 20:26:33 2025
    XPost: uk.d-i-y

    Alan J. Wylie wrote:

    I run a mailing list for my mountaineering club. Previously, mail was delivered fine with the From: address being that of the sender, no DMARC record and any DKIM signature being the original one from the senders
    mail provider.

    Yes, mailing lists, dkim, dmarc, address re-writing ... all add to the fun!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From John Rumm@21:1/5 to Jeff Gaines on Thu Jan 9 00:48:43 2025
    XPost: uk.d-i-y

    On 08/01/2025 16:48, Jeff Gaines wrote:

    I am getting an error in sending emails from my own domain address but
    via my ISP's server:

    [SMTP] Cannot send message (Sending email "Re[2]: xxx" failed with
    error: Email body not accepted due to the following reason:
        "5.7.1 <END-OF-MESSAGE>: End-of-data rejected: SPF Incorrect
    ")

    Any clues on where the error might be occurring based on:

    My ISP is PlusNet.
    I am sending it via my own domain via PlusNet (I have no idea how that
    works)
    I use em Client which has recently been upgraded.

    It went successfully using my outlook.com address from the same email
    client, where do I start looking first?

    The Sender Policy Framework (SPF) mechanism is a way that a domain can advertise which SMTP servers will legitimately handle sending email for
    a domain. It allows (among other things) the receiver to make an
    estimation of how it is that a email is coming from a legit server. If
    the originating SMTP server does not match that indicated in the SPF
    record, then it is more likely that it is a spoof. Absence of a SPF
    record (or an incorrect record) make it harder to get your email delivered.

    I seem to recall plusnet tightened up on mail verification some time
    back, and hence may be verifying that senders have a proper SPF record.

    To see if you have a SPF record, open a command prompt, and enter:

    nslookup -type=txt <yourdomainname>

    You should have a txt record that looks like:

    "v=spf1 include:_spf-internal.plus.net include:_spf-internal2.plus.net ~all"

    That tells any server processing your email to lookup the server
    addresses pull in the list of IP addresses contained in text records
    attached to those two plusnet sub domains.

    So if you *don't* see a record like that you need to add one in the DNS management control panel of your domain registrar.


    --
    Cheers,

    John.

    /=================================================================\
    | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------|
    | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \=================================================================/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Jeff Gaines@21:1/5 to John Rumm on Thu Jan 9 09:41:38 2025
    XPost: uk.d-i-y

    On 09/01/2025 in message <vln6db$31eg0$1@dont-email.me> John Rumm wrote:

    On 08/01/2025 16:48, Jeff Gaines wrote:

    I am getting an error in sending emails from my own domain address but
    via my ISP's server:

    [SMTP] Cannot send message (Sending email "Re[2]: xxx" failed with error: >>Email body not accepted due to the following reason:
        "5.7.1 <END-OF-MESSAGE>: End-of-data rejected: SPF Incorrect
    ")

    Any clues on where the error might be occurring based on:

    My ISP is PlusNet.
    I am sending it via my own domain via PlusNet (I have no idea how that >>works)
    I use em Client which has recently been upgraded.

    It went successfully using my outlook.com address from the same email >>client, where do I start looking first?

    The Sender Policy Framework (SPF) mechanism is a way that a domain can >advertise which SMTP servers will legitimately handle sending email for a >domain. It allows (among other things) the receiver to make an estimation
    of how it is that a email is coming from a legit server. If the
    originating SMTP server does not match that indicated in the SPF record,
    then it is more likely that it is a spoof. Absence of a SPF record (or an >incorrect record) make it harder to get your email delivered.

    I seem to recall plusnet tightened up on mail verification some time back, >and hence may be verifying that senders have a proper SPF record.

    To see if you have a SPF record, open a command prompt, and enter:

    nslookup -type=txt <yourdomainname>

    You should have a txt record that looks like:

    "v=spf1 include:_spf-internal.plus.net include:_spf-internal2.plus.net
    ~all"

    That tells any server processing your email to lookup the server addresses >pull in the list of IP addresses contained in text records attached to
    those two plusnet sub domains.

    So if you don't see a record like that you need to add one in the DNS >management control panel of your domain registrar.

    Many thanks John :-)

    I have found that email, it said:

    "If your nameservers are managed by Heart Internet, there’s no need to
    take any action - our team has already made the necessary updates for you."

    So I ignored it.

    However from following your advice it seems I have no SPF record so I
    followed Heart's instructions which say "Log in to your Domain Control
    Panel and navigate to ‘DNS Management’.

    There is no "DNS Management" to navigate to!

    I will raise a ticket with them. Their admin is appalling but when I tried
    to move away it seemed I had to set up my own records at Mythic Beasts and
    that was way beyond me.

    Thanks again.

    --
    Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
    All those who believe in psychokinesis raise my hand.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From John Rumm@21:1/5 to Jeff Gaines on Thu Jan 9 10:25:54 2025
    XPost: uk.d-i-y

    On 09/01/2025 09:41, Jeff Gaines wrote:
    On 09/01/2025 in message <vln6db$31eg0$1@dont-email.me> John Rumm wrote:

    On 08/01/2025 16:48, Jeff Gaines wrote:

    I am getting an error in sending emails from my own domain address
    but via my ISP's server:

    [SMTP] Cannot send message (Sending email "Re[2]: xxx" failed with
    error: Email body not accepted due to the following reason:
        "5.7.1 <END-OF-MESSAGE>: End-of-data rejected: SPF Incorrect
    ")

    Any clues on where the error might be occurring based on:

    My ISP is PlusNet.
    I am sending it via my own domain via PlusNet (I have no idea how
    that works)
    I use em Client which has recently been upgraded.

    It went successfully using my outlook.com address from the same email
    client, where do I start looking first?

    The Sender Policy Framework (SPF) mechanism is a way that a domain can
    advertise which SMTP servers will legitimately handle sending email
    for a domain. It allows (among other things) the receiver to make an
    estimation of how it is that a email is coming from a legit server. If
    the originating SMTP server does not match that indicated in the SPF
    record, then it is more likely that it is a spoof. Absence of a SPF
    record (or an incorrect record) make it harder to get your email
    delivered.

    I seem to recall plusnet tightened up on mail verification some time
    back, and hence may be verifying that senders have a proper SPF record.

    To see if you have a SPF record, open a command prompt, and enter:

    nslookup -type=txt <yourdomainname>

    You should have a txt record that looks like:

    "v=spf1 include:_spf-internal.plus.net include:_spf-internal2.plus.net
    ~all"

    That tells any server processing your email to lookup the server
    addresses pull in the list of IP addresses contained in text records
    attached to those two plusnet sub domains.

    So if you don't see a record like that you need to add one in the DNS
    management control panel of your domain registrar.

    Many thanks John :-)

    I have found that email, it said:

    "If your nameservers are managed by Heart Internet, there’s no need to
    take any action - our team has already made the necessary updates for you."

    So I ignored it.

    They might be assuming that if they are managing the name servers they
    are also hosting the mailbox, and hence they can put two and two
    together and do that.

    If you have mail hosted elsewhere, it seems unlikely they could do it
    (right!) automatically.

    However from following your advice it seems I have no SPF record so I followed Heart's instructions which say "Log in to your Domain Control
    Panel and navigate to ‘DNS Management’.

    There is no "DNS Management" to navigate to!

    :-)

    It is there somewhere since I had to make DNS changes for a customer on
    heart a couple of years ago. I don't think I have a valid login for them
    now, so can't go find it.

    I will raise a ticket with them. Their admin is appalling but when I
    tried to move away it seemed I had to set up my own records at Mythic
    Beasts and that was way beyond me.

    Might be worth me doing a wiki page on DIY email setups by the sounds of
    it.


    --
    Cheers,

    John.

    /=================================================================\
    | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------|
    | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \=================================================================/

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  • From Jeff Gaines@21:1/5 to John Rumm on Thu Jan 9 10:49:01 2025
    XPost: uk.d-i-y

    On 09/01/2025 in message <vlo87i$3agr2$1@dont-email.me> John Rumm wrote:

    Might be worth me doing a wiki page on DIY email setups by the sounds of
    it.

    Oh god, yes please, make sure it has a beginners' section for me!

    --
    Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
    The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil but by those who
    watch them without doing anything. (Albert Einstein)

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  • From Daniel James@21:1/5 to Jeff Gaines on Thu Jan 9 15:09:41 2025
    XPost: uk.d-i-y

    On 09/01/2025 09:41, Jeff Gaines wrote:
    I will raise a ticket with [Heart]. Their admin is appalling but when I tried to move away it seemed I had to set up my own records at Mythic Beasts and that was way beyond me.

    Setting up SPF for your domain hosted on Heart will be similar if you
    don't use the EMail provided by Heart. If you don't use Heart's EMail
    servers they don't know whose servers you do use, so they can't set SPF
    up automatically for your domain.

    It's really up to the people whose servers you do use to tell you what
    to use to identify their mail servers, and up to the hosting company to
    tell you how to put that into an SPF record on their DNS.

    I find the help on Mythic Beasts's website very good, and their support
    people are very helpful and responsive when the help isn't quite enough.
    If you use Mythic Beasts for both mail and domain hosting then setting
    up SPF and DKIM are one-click operations, if you don't then you have to
    do a little work, but they do tell you what you need to do.

    --
    Cheers,
    Daniel.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Jeff Gaines@21:1/5 to Daniel James on Thu Jan 9 15:29:01 2025
    XPost: uk.d-i-y

    On 09/01/2025 in message <vloomt$3df8k$1@dont-email.me> Daniel James wrote:

    On 09/01/2025 09:41, Jeff Gaines wrote:
    I will raise a ticket with [Heart]. Their admin is appalling but when I >>tried to move away it seemed I had to set up my own records at Mythic >>Beasts and that was way beyond me.

    Setting up SPF for your domain hosted on Heart will be similar if you
    don't use the EMail provided by Heart. If you don't use Heart's EMail
    servers they don't know whose servers you do use, so they can't set SPF up >automatically for your domain.

    It's really up to the people whose servers you do use to tell you what to
    use to identify their mail servers, and up to the hosting company to tell
    you how to put that into an SPF record on their DNS.

    I find the help on Mythic Beasts's website very good, and their support >people are very helpful and responsive when the help isn't quite enough.
    If you use Mythic Beasts for both mail and domain hosting then setting up
    SPF and DKIM are one-click operations, if you don't then you have to do a >little work, but they do tell you what you need to do.

    I must admit I find it very confusing working out who does what!

    Plusnet is my ISP, I only use their email address for correspondence with
    them.

    I have 2 x domains hosted with Heart but my email client is set up to log
    on to the Heart servers so although I send email from my email program I
    think Plusnet only connects me to the Internet, Heart does all the
    addressing stuff.

    I have 1 x domain hosted with Mythic Beasts same set up as for the Heart domains except it has never missed a beat!

    I also have 4 x outlook.com addresses and 1 x Gmail, also set up as above, never a problem except MSFT asks me to re-affirm my details now and then.

    I had 2 x Yahoo emails but they change their sign on process so often I cancelled them, not worth the effort.

    --
    Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
    The fact that there's a highway to hell and only a stairway to heaven says
    a lot about anticipated traffic numbers.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Jeff Gaines@21:1/5 to Gaines on Thu Jan 9 15:20:40 2025
    XPost: uk.d-i-y

    On 09/01/2025 in message <xn0p0liqk2k6y7d006@news.individual.net> Jeff
    Gaines wrote:

    On 09/01/2025 in message <vlo87i$3agr2$1@dont-email.me> John Rumm wrote:

    Might be worth me doing a wiki page on DIY email setups by the sounds of >>it.

    Oh god, yes please, make sure it has a beginners' section for me!

    Follow up.

    Heart replied to the ticket within 10 minutes and said they would set up default SPF records so I think I was right in believing they should have
    done this.

    One domain is now fine, I suspect they only answered the first point so I
    have jogged them that there are two domains affected.

    --
    Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
    Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his friends for his
    life.
    (Jeremy Thorpe, 1962)

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  • From HVS@21:1/5 to Andy Burns on Thu Jan 9 18:36:24 2025
    XPost: uk.d-i-y

    On 08 Jan 2025, Andy Burns wrote

    HVS wrote:

    Jeff Gaines wrote

    I am getting an error in sending emails from my own domain
    address but via my ISP's server:

    Not sure, but are the emails apparently originating from your own
    domain or email address?

    He's not having problems with received email, but he's being
    blocked from sending.

    I've been plagued for the past couple of months with phishing
    emails that present themselves as coming from my domain email
    manager, and spoof the "from" field to make it look as if they're
    coming from my own address and domain. The claim is that my
    message storage space is full or my message volume limit has been
    reached, and trying to get me to click on a link to change my
    login details.

    It's all nonsense, but the annoying thing is that since the
    spoofed "from" address makes it appear that the emails originate
    from my own domain, I haven't wanted to block them as spam in
    case the filter just looks at the apparent address and I wind up
    blocking myself.

    So I've just been manually deleting them, as I'm not sure how to
    safely block them automatically.

    If you have your own domain, you should set an SPF record that
    lists the servers authorised to send on your behalf, that should
    make it easier for emails from unauthorised servers to be
    rejected.

    Thanks; I'll look into that.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Rumm@21:1/5 to Jeff Gaines on Fri Jan 10 01:10:04 2025
    XPost: uk.d-i-y

    On 09/01/2025 15:20, Jeff Gaines wrote:
    On 09/01/2025 in message <xn0p0liqk2k6y7d006@news.individual.net> Jeff
    Gaines wrote:

    On 09/01/2025 in message <vlo87i$3agr2$1@dont-email.me> John Rumm wrote:

    Might be worth me doing a wiki page on DIY email setups by the sounds
    of it.

    Oh god, yes please, make sure it has a beginners' section for me!

    Follow up.

    Heart replied to the ticket within 10 minutes and said they would set up default SPF records so I think I was right in believing they should have
    done this.

    I can imagine that they might setup a SPF record to include their mail
    servers in the list of advertised ones, but I would not expect them to
    include the plusnet servers unless you explicitly asked them to?

    One domain is now fine, I suspect they only answered the first point so
    I have jogged them that there are two domains affected.

    (I have started an article on DIY mail server configuration and setup -
    but not ready yet)

    --
    Cheers,

    John.

    /=================================================================\
    | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------|
    | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \=================================================================/

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  • From John Rumm@21:1/5 to Jeff Gaines on Fri Jan 10 01:16:07 2025
    XPost: uk.d-i-y

    On 09/01/2025 15:29, Jeff Gaines wrote:
    On 09/01/2025 in message <vloomt$3df8k$1@dont-email.me> Daniel James wrote:

    On 09/01/2025 09:41, Jeff Gaines wrote:
    I will raise a ticket with [Heart]. Their admin is appalling but when
    I tried to move away it seemed I had to set up my own records at
    Mythic Beasts and that was way beyond me.

    Setting up SPF for your domain hosted on Heart will be similar if you
    don't use the EMail provided by Heart. If you don't use Heart's EMail
    servers they don't know whose servers you do use, so they can't set
    SPF up automatically for your domain.

    It's really up to the people whose servers you do use to tell you what
    to use to identify their mail servers, and up to the hosting company
    to tell you how to put that into an SPF record on their DNS.

    I find the help on Mythic Beasts's website very good, and their
    support people are very helpful and responsive when the help isn't
    quite enough. If you use Mythic Beasts for both mail and domain
    hosting then setting up SPF and DKIM are one-click operations, if you
    don't then you have to do a little work, but they do tell you what you
    need to do.

    I must admit I find it very confusing working out who does what!

    Yup it can get confusing...

    Plusnet is my ISP, I only use their email address for correspondence
    with them.

    I have 2 x domains hosted with Heart but my email client is set up to
    log on to the Heart servers so although I send email from my email
    program I think Plusnet only connects me to the Internet, Heart does all
    the addressing stuff.

    Earlier I got the impression that you might be trying to send mail for
    your domain via the plusnet mail server (you did say "I am getting an
    error in sending emails from my own domain address but via my ISP's
    server"). You might have been able to get that to work in the past, but
    plusnet would likely block it now.

    However connecting to the mail servers that belong to the actual host of
    your mailbox is the proper way to do it. In that case, all plusnet is
    doing is providing the connection and play no further part in it.


    --
    Cheers,

    John.

    /=================================================================\
    | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------|
    | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \=================================================================/

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  • From Jeff Gaines@21:1/5 to John Rumm on Fri Jan 10 08:30:44 2025
    XPost: uk.d-i-y

    On 10/01/2025 in message <vlpscn$3kc15$2@dont-email.me> John Rumm wrote:

    I must admit I find it very confusing working out who does what!

    Yup it can get confusing...

    Plusnet is my ISP, I only use their email address for correspondence with >>them.

    I have 2 x domains hosted with Heart but my email client is set up to log >>on to the Heart servers so although I send email from my email program I >>think Plusnet only connects me to the Internet, Heart does all the >>addressing stuff.

    Earlier I got the impression that you might be trying to send mail for
    your domain via the plusnet mail server (you did say "I am getting an
    error in sending emails from my own domain address but via my ISP's >server"). You might have been able to get that to work in the past, but >plusnet would likely block it now.

    However connecting to the mail servers that belong to the actual host of
    your mailbox is the proper way to do it. In that case, all plusnet is
    doing is providing the connection and play no further part in it.

    Good to know I am doing it properly even if I didn't know what I was doing!

    Heart's original email said:

    "At Heart Internet, we’re always investing in improvements to give our customers the best possible experience. As part of this commitment,
    we’ve partnered with a new mail provider, Soverin, to enhance email reliability and deliverability.

    To support this change, we’ve updated the SPF (Sender Policy Framework) records required for sending emails through our servers.

    To ensure your emails continue to deliver successfully, please review and update your SPF record based on the instructions below.

    If your nameservers are managed by Heart Internet, there’s no need to
    take any action - our team has already made the necessary updates for you."

    I decided that meant I didn't need to take any action and I suspect I was right, just for some reason Heart didn't do what it said it would.

    Look forward to the blog on the subject :-)

    --
    Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
    If you ever find something you like buy a lifetime supply because they
    will stop making it

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  • From Andy Burns@21:1/5 to John Rumm on Fri Jan 10 10:22:14 2025
    XPost: uk.d-i-y

    John Rumm wrote:

    I got the impression that you might be trying to send mail for your
    domain via the plusnet mail server

    That's how I read it too ...

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  • From Theo@21:1/5 to Andy Burns on Fri Jan 10 12:25:59 2025
    XPost: uk.d-i-y

    In uk.d-i-y Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

    John Rumm wrote:

    I got the impression that you might be trying to send mail for your
    domain via the plusnet mail server

    That's how I read it too ...

    Me too.

    The general rule of thumb is that email should go out by the same provider
    that it comes in, ie if you host example.com at XYZ Hosting, you should
    send mail that claims to be from you@example.com via XYZ Hosting. XYZ
    Hosting should take care of the necessary SPF/etc to make this possible (although check their control panel in case it's a setting you need to
    enable).

    Most mail clients can accept settings for an SMTP server per account. Some older ones can't, so unfortunately they aren't suitable for modern use.[*]

    Theo

    [*] You could I suppose run a local smarthost on a RPi or something whose
    job it is to accept messages from your old client and work out which
    upstream server to send the messages to. That is left as a DIY for the
    reader.

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeff Gaines@21:1/5 to Theo on Fri Jan 10 12:31:50 2025
    XPost: uk.d-i-y

    On 10/01/2025 in message <BSw*1re4z@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> Theo wrote:

    In uk.d-i-y Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

    John Rumm wrote:

    I got the impression that you might be trying to send mail for your >>>domain via the plusnet mail server

    That's how I read it too ...

    Me too.

    The general rule of thumb is that email should go out by the same provider >that it comes in, ie if you host example.com at XYZ Hosting, you should
    send mail that claims to be from you@example.com via XYZ Hosting. XYZ >Hosting should take care of the necessary SPF/etc to make this possible >(although check their control panel in case it's a setting you need to >enable).

    Most mail clients can accept settings for an SMTP server per account. Some >older ones can't, so unfortunately they aren't suitable for modern use.[*]

    Theo

    [*] You could I suppose run a local smarthost on a RPi or something whose
    job it is to accept messages from your old client and work out which
    upstream server to send the messages to. That is left as a DIY for the >reader.

    I have to say this is beyond me, I said:

    "Any clues on where the error might be occurring based on:

    My ISP is PlusNet.
    I am sending it via my own domain via PlusNet (I have no idea how that
    works)
    I use em Client which has recently been upgraded.

    It went successfully using my outlook.com address from the same email
    client, where do I start looking first?"

    I suspect "I am sending it via my own domain via PlusNet (I have no idea
    how that works)" is causing confusion, my ISP is PlusNet so that's how I
    get on to the Internet, the details in my email program are the Heart
    Internet details. Seems I am connecting to my domain server via my PlusNet connection?

    Anyway it works now!

    --
    Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
    The first five days after the weekend are the hardest.

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  • From Andy Burns@21:1/5 to Jeff Gaines on Fri Jan 10 13:17:41 2025
    XPost: uk.d-i-y

    Jeff Gaines wrote:

    I suspect "I am sending it via my own domain via PlusNet (I have no idea
    how that works)" is causing confusion

    I think the actual confusion is from "sending emails from my own domain
    address but via my ISP's server" which to me implies relay.plus.net

    Anyway it works now!

    I thought you sorted it a while back by moving away from Heart?

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  • From Jeff Gaines@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jan 10 13:44:12 2025
    XPost: uk.d-i-y

    On 10/01/2025 in message <luckvlF70ltU1@mid.individual.net> Andy Burns
    wrote:

    Jeff Gaines wrote:

    I suspect "I am sending it via my own domain via PlusNet (I have no idea >>how that works)" is causing confusion

    I think the actual confusion is from "sending emails from my own domain >address but via my ISP's server" which to me implies relay.plus.net

    Anyway it works now!

    I thought you sorted it a while back by moving away from Heart?

    That failed because Mythic Beasts expected me to update MX records and
    that's not for me. If there was a way to transfer by getting a PIC or MAC
    or whatever I would consider it but I have a spread of email accounts so
    one will usually work!

    --
    Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
    Roses are #FF0000, violets are #0000FF
    if you can read this, you're a nerd 10.

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  • From Jeff Gaines@21:1/5 to Theo on Fri Jan 10 16:50:35 2025
    XPost: uk.d-i-y

    On 10/01/2025 in message <BSw*jof4z@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> Theo wrote:

    In uk.d-i-y Jeff Gaines <jgnewsid@outlook.com> wrote:
    On 10/01/2025 in message <luckvlF70ltU1@mid.individual.net> Andy Burns >>wrote:

    Jeff Gaines wrote:

    I suspect "I am sending it via my own domain via PlusNet (I have no idea >>>>how that works)" is causing confusion

    I think the actual confusion is from "sending emails from my own domain >>>address but via my ISP's server" which to me implies relay.plus.net

    Anyway it works now!

    I thought you sorted it a while back by moving away from Heart?

    That failed because Mythic Beasts expected me to update MX records and >>that's not for me. If there was a way to transfer by getting a PIC or MAC >>or whatever I would consider it but I have a spread of email accounts so >>one will usually work!

    It sounds like you moved the hosting but you didn't move the domain >registration. If you move the domain to Mythic Beasts as well, they can >handle the DNS for you. If you don't move the domain, you have to edit the >DNS yourself (either adding DNS records like MXes manually, or changing the >DNS servers wholesale to point to Mythic's DNS server).

    There's no 'one touch switch' processes for domains, you're expect to know >what you're doing. The best you can do is move the domain registration (at >which point everything will stop working, temporarily) and then ask the new >host to set everything up their way. That does not include transferring >across old websites or email boxes unless you specifically ask them to.

    Theo

    I already had a domain hosted with Mythic Beasts which I had transferred
    from Heart, Mythic Beasts set everything up so I didn't have to do or know anything. I think when I went to transfer anther domain they suggested
    just adding it to the existing hosting but I would have had to update all
    the records, don't know, didn't get anywhere so in the end just left it. Perhaps I should have set up a second account.

    --
    Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
    You know it's cold outside when you go outside and it's cold.

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  • From Theo@21:1/5 to Jeff Gaines on Fri Jan 10 16:43:19 2025
    XPost: uk.d-i-y

    In uk.d-i-y Jeff Gaines <jgnewsid@outlook.com> wrote:
    On 10/01/2025 in message <luckvlF70ltU1@mid.individual.net> Andy Burns
    wrote:

    Jeff Gaines wrote:

    I suspect "I am sending it via my own domain via PlusNet (I have no idea >>how that works)" is causing confusion

    I think the actual confusion is from "sending emails from my own domain >address but via my ISP's server" which to me implies relay.plus.net

    Anyway it works now!

    I thought you sorted it a while back by moving away from Heart?

    That failed because Mythic Beasts expected me to update MX records and
    that's not for me. If there was a way to transfer by getting a PIC or MAC
    or whatever I would consider it but I have a spread of email accounts so
    one will usually work!

    It sounds like you moved the hosting but you didn't move the domain registration. If you move the domain to Mythic Beasts as well, they can
    handle the DNS for you. If you don't move the domain, you have to edit the
    DNS yourself (either adding DNS records like MXes manually, or changing the
    DNS servers wholesale to point to Mythic's DNS server).

    There's no 'one touch switch' processes for domains, you're expect to know
    what you're doing. The best you can do is move the domain registration (at which point everything will stop working, temporarily) and then ask the new host to set everything up their way. That does not include transferring
    across old websites or email boxes unless you specifically ask them to.

    Theo

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  • From Andy Burns@21:1/5 to Jeff Gaines on Fri Jan 10 17:09:52 2025
    XPost: uk.d-i-y

    Jeff Gaines wrote:

    I already had a domain hosted with Mythic Beasts which I had transferred
    from Heart

    Previously Heart got gobbled up by GoDaddy (as part of Host Europe) but
    now they seem to have become part of <https://your.online> which,
    perhaps worryingly, seems to be offline ...

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  • From Jeff Gaines@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jan 10 17:34:04 2025
    XPost: uk.d-i-y

    On 10/01/2025 in message <lud2j2Faar9U2@mid.individual.net> Andy Burns
    wrote:

    Jeff Gaines wrote:

    I already had a domain hosted with Mythic Beasts which I had transferred >>from Heart

    Previously Heart got gobbled up by GoDaddy (as part of Host Europe) but
    now they seem to have become part of <https://your.online> which, perhaps >worryingly, seems to be offline ...

    :-)

    --
    Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
    That's an amazing invention but who would ever want to use one of them? (President Hayes speaking to Alexander Graham Bell on the invention of the telephone)

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  • From wasbit@21:1/5 to Jeff Gaines on Sat Jan 11 10:03:23 2025
    XPost: uk.d-i-y

    On 10/01/2025 12:31, Jeff Gaines wrote:
    On 10/01/2025 in message <BSw*1re4z@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> Theo
    wrote:

    In uk.d-i-y Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

    John Rumm wrote:

    I got the impression that you might be trying to send mail for your
    domain via the plusnet mail server

    That's how I read it too ...

    Me too.

    The general rule of thumb is that email should go out by the same
    provider
    that it comes in, ie if you host example.com at XYZ Hosting, you should
    send mail that claims to be from you@example.com via XYZ Hosting.  XYZ
    Hosting should take care of the necessary SPF/etc to make this possible
    (although check their control panel in case it's a setting you need to
    enable).

    Most mail clients can accept settings for an SMTP server per account.
    Some
    older ones can't, so unfortunately they aren't suitable for modern
    use.[*]

    Theo

    [*] You could I suppose run a local smarthost on a RPi or something whose
    job it is to accept messages from your old client and work out which
    upstream server to send the messages to.  That is left as a DIY for the
    reader.

    I have to say this is beyond me, I said:

    "Any clues on where the error might be occurring based on:

    My ISP is PlusNet.
    I am sending it via my own domain via PlusNet (I have no idea how that
    works)
    I use em Client which has recently been upgraded.

    It went successfully using my outlook.com address from the same email
    client, where do I start looking first?"

    I suspect "I am sending it via my own domain via PlusNet (I have no idea
    how that works)" is causing confusion, my ISP is PlusNet so that's how I
    get on to the Internet, the details in my email program are the Heart Internet details. Seems I am connecting to my domain server via my
    PlusNet connection?

    Anyway it works now!


    I used EM Client for a couple of email addresses for several years. It's
    free for 2 addresses. Don't need calendar, chat etc.
    When Microsoft updated their authentication EM had to update their
    client & the emails failed.
    Luckily I managed to get the emails to authenticate with another client.
    Can't remember which but I can look it up if needed. I should also say
    that these previously working emails wouldn't authenticate with
    Thunderbird, Betterbird or several other clients that I tried.
    Several months later I tried EM Client again & the addresses authenticated.
    - https://www.emclient.com/


    --
    Regards
    wasbit

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  • From Jeff Gaines@21:1/5 to wasbit on Sat Jan 11 10:52:36 2025
    XPost: uk.d-i-y

    On 11/01/2025 in message <vltflc$ih20$1@dont-email.me> wasbit wrote:

    On 10/01/2025 12:31, Jeff Gaines wrote:
    On 10/01/2025 in message <BSw*1re4z@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> Theo >>wrote:

    In uk.d-i-y Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

    John Rumm wrote:

    I got the impression that you might be trying to send mail for your >>>>>domain via the plusnet mail server

    That's how I read it too ...

    Me too.

    The general rule of thumb is that email should go out by the same >>>provider
    that it comes in, ie if you host example.com at XYZ Hosting, you should >>>send mail that claims to be from you@example.com via XYZ Hosting.  XYZ >>>Hosting should take care of the necessary SPF/etc to make this possible >>>(although check their control panel in case it's a setting you need to >>>enable).

    Most mail clients can accept settings for an SMTP server per account. >>>Some
    older ones can't, so unfortunately they aren't suitable for modern >>>use.[*]

    Theo

    [*] You could I suppose run a local smarthost on a RPi or something whose >>>job it is to accept messages from your old client and work out which >>>upstream server to send the messages to.  That is left as a DIY for the >>>reader.

    I have to say this is beyond me, I said:

    "Any clues on where the error might be occurring based on:

    My ISP is PlusNet.
    I am sending it via my own domain via PlusNet (I have no idea how that >>works)
    I use em Client which has recently been upgraded.

    It went successfully using my outlook.com address from the same email >>client, where do I start looking first?"

    I suspect "I am sending it via my own domain via PlusNet (I have no idea >>how that works)" is causing confusion, my ISP is PlusNet so that's how I >>get on to the Internet, the details in my email program are the Heart >>Internet details. Seems I am connecting to my domain server via my
    PlusNet connection?

    Anyway it works now!


    I used EM Client for a couple of email addresses for several years. It's
    free for 2 addresses. Don't need calendar, chat etc.
    When Microsoft updated their authentication EM had to update their client
    & the emails failed.
    Luckily I managed to get the emails to authenticate with another client. >Can't remember which but I can look it up if needed. I should also say
    that these previously working emails wouldn't authenticate with
    Thunderbird, Betterbird or several other clients that I tried.
    Several months later I tried EM Client again & the addresses authenticated.
    - https://www.emclient.com/

    eM Client does keep up to date BUT sometimes only via a new version so
    there is a cost depending on how many email accounts you need. At the last update (v10) they introduced a personal licence covering 3 x computers
    which seemed a good deal.

    In respect of authentication I have closed all my Yahoo accounts, they
    changed their process so frequently nobody could keep up.

    The only issue I have with MSFT (outlook.com) is they demand
    re-authentication on my Android devices every three months which is a pain
    as I use long password safe produced passwords and re-entering that is a killer!

    So far Gmail seems OK...

    --
    Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
    I was standing in the park wondering why Frisbees got bigger as they get closer.
    Then it hit me.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From John Rumm@21:1/5 to Jeff Gaines on Mon Jan 13 13:35:01 2025
    XPost: uk.d-i-y

    On 11/01/2025 10:52, Jeff Gaines wrote:
    On 11/01/2025 in message <vltflc$ih20$1@dont-email.me> wasbit wrote:

    On 10/01/2025 12:31, Jeff Gaines wrote:
    On 10/01/2025 in message <BSw*1re4z@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> Theo
    wrote:

    In uk.d-i-y Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

    John Rumm wrote:

    I got the impression that you might be trying to send mail for your >>>>>> domain via the plusnet mail server

    That's how I read it too ...

    Me too.

    The general rule of thumb is that email should go out by the same
    provider
    that it comes in, ie if you host example.com at XYZ Hosting, you should >>>> send mail that claims to be from you@example.com via XYZ Hosting.  XYZ >>>> Hosting should take care of the necessary SPF/etc to make this possible >>>> (although check their control panel in case it's a setting you need to >>>> enable).

    Most mail clients can accept settings for an SMTP server per
    account. Some
    older ones can't, so unfortunately they aren't suitable for modern
    use.[*]

    Theo

    [*] You could I suppose run a local smarthost on a RPi or something
    whose
    job it is to accept messages from your old client and work out which
    upstream server to send the messages to.  That is left as a DIY for the >>>> reader.

    I have to say this is beyond me, I said:

    "Any clues on where the error might be occurring based on:

    My ISP is PlusNet.
    I am sending it via my own domain via PlusNet (I have no idea how
    that works)
    I use em Client which has recently been upgraded.

    It went successfully using my outlook.com address from the same email
    client, where do I start looking first?"

    I suspect "I am sending it via my own domain via PlusNet (I have no
    idea how that works)" is causing confusion, my ISP is PlusNet so
    that's how I get on to the Internet, the details in my email program
    are the Heart Internet details. Seems I am connecting to my domain
    server via my PlusNet connection?

    Anyway it works now!


    I used EM Client for a couple of email addresses for several years.
    It's free for 2 addresses. Don't need calendar, chat etc.
    When Microsoft updated their authentication EM had to update their
    client & the emails failed.
    Luckily I managed to get the emails to authenticate with another
    client. Can't remember which but I can look it up if needed. I should
    also say that these previously working emails wouldn't authenticate
    with Thunderbird, Betterbird or several other clients that I tried.
    Several months later I tried EM Client again & the addresses
    authenticated.
    - https://www.emclient.com/

    eM Client does keep up to date BUT sometimes only via a new version so
    there is a cost depending on how many email accounts you need. At the
    last update (v10) they introduced a personal licence covering 3 x
    computers which seemed a good deal.

    In respect of authentication I have closed all my Yahoo accounts, they changed their process so frequently nobody could keep up.

    The only issue I have with MSFT (outlook.com) is they demand re- authentication on my Android devices every three months which is a pain
    as I use long password safe produced passwords and re-entering that is a killer!

    You should be able to setup 2FA for authentication to save re-entering
    the password.


    So far Gmail seems OK...



    --
    Cheers,

    John.

    /=================================================================\
    | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------|
    | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \=================================================================/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Jeff Gaines@21:1/5 to John Rumm on Mon Jan 13 14:36:08 2025
    XPost: uk.d-i-y

    On 13/01/2025 in message <vm34q6$1q6cs$2@dont-email.me> John Rumm wrote:

    The only issue I have with MSFT (outlook.com) is they demand re- >>authentication on my Android devices every three months which is a pain
    as I use long password safe produced passwords and re-entering that is a >>killer!

    You should be able to setup 2FA for authentication to save re-entering the >password.

    I am limited by what the Android device allows, I'd better get used to it Windows is getting more and more like it :-(

    --
    Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
    Every day is a good day for chicken, unless you're a chicken.

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  • From Pancho@21:1/5 to Jeff Gaines on Wed Jan 15 10:32:18 2025
    XPost: uk.d-i-y

    On 1/9/25 09:41, Jeff Gaines wrote:


    However from following your advice it seems I have no SPF record so I followed Heart's instructions which say "Log in to your Domain Control
    Panel and navigate to ‘DNS Management’.

    There is no "DNS Management" to navigate to!

    I will raise a ticket with them. Their admin is appalling but when I
    tried to move away it seemed I had to set up my own records at Mythic
    Beasts and that was way beyond me.


    It's not that difficult. A painting by numbers task. rather than
    requiring you to know what you are doing.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)