• Exploding batteries

    From GB@21:1/5 to All on Wed Sep 18 17:05:53 2024
    Without getting at all political, there's been a suggestion that the
    pagers in Lebanon exploded through malware causing them to overheat. Can
    I just check whether the assembled sages think that's at all a plausible explanation, please?

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  • From Theo@21:1/5 to NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid on Wed Sep 18 17:28:28 2024
    GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> wrote:
    Without getting at all political, there's been a suggestion that the
    pagers in Lebanon exploded through malware causing them to overheat. Can
    I just check whether the assembled sages think that's at all a plausible explanation, please?

    It's not.

    If you dead short a lithium ion cell it swells, you get smoke, then some heat, and then eventually it bursts and catches fire. Once it's caught fire it's hard to put out (needs copious liquid to reduce the temperature out of the danger zone). The cells in question are phone-sized, so 1000-4000mAh
    (3-15Wh) - not very big.

    But what it doesn't do is explode. There is pressure, but for an explosion
    you need the pressure to be contained and then the containment to rupture
    very rapidly. Most lithium cells in phones are just made of plastic
    film so they aren't capable of withstanding pressure - they just swell up.
    The phone is glued together and the pressure tears apart the glue.
    The phone is destroyed but there's no explosive decompression.

    (other lithium chemistries like LFP and LTO are even less active)

    Consensus seems to be there were explosives added during manufacturing. The explosive in a bullet releases energy much more quickly than a battery, and
    a handful of bullets going off in your pocket could have this kind of
    effect.

    Theo

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  • From Andy Burns@21:1/5 to All on Wed Sep 18 17:27:58 2024
    GB wrote:

    Without getting at all political, there's been a suggestion that the
    pagers in Lebanon exploded through malware causing them to overheat. Can
    I just check whether the assembled sages think that's at all a plausible explanation, please?
    Not a feasible explanation IMO. If mistreated, lithium batteries go
    with a whoosh, not a bang.

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  • From David@21:1/5 to All on Wed Sep 18 17:22:38 2024
    On Wed, 18 Sep 2024 17:05:53 +0100, GB wrote:

    Without getting at all political, there's been a suggestion that the
    pagers in Lebanon exploded through malware causing them to overheat. Can
    I just check whether the assembled sages think that's at all a plausible explanation, please?

    If this was technically possible the hacker community would have been
    competing as to who could make the biggest and most high profile explosion decades ago.

    Would anyone old enough to have used a pager trusted middle managers with
    that capability?

    Cheers



    Dave R

    --
    AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 10 x64

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com

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  • From Abandoned Trolley@21:1/5 to All on Thu Sep 19 09:08:08 2024
    On 18/09/2024 17:05, GB wrote:
    Without getting at all political, there's been a suggestion that the
    pagers in Lebanon exploded through malware causing them to overheat. Can
    I just check whether the assembled sages think that's at all a plausible explanation, please?



    Laughably implausible - for the simple reason that multiple devices
    exploded at almost exactly the same time.

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  • From GB@21:1/5 to Theo on Thu Sep 19 11:20:57 2024
    On 18/09/2024 17:28, Theo wrote:

    Consensus seems to be there were explosives added during manufacturing. The explosive in a bullet releases energy much more quickly than a battery, and
    a handful of bullets going off in your pocket could have this kind of
    effect.

    Thanks, all. That's what I thought, but it had been advanced as a
    theory, so I just wanted to check.

    It occurs to me the same approach could be used in other ways. As one
    example, you could produce bullets with inappropriate propellant. If you
    were being kind, you might make it so the bullet goes halfway up the
    barrel and then stops - making it a job for an armourer to reactivate
    the weapon.

    If you were being unkind, you could replace the propellant with
    explosive, so the breech explodes.







    Theo

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  • From Daniel James@21:1/5 to All on Thu Sep 19 12:19:44 2024
    On 18/09/2024 17:05, GB wrote:
    Without getting at all political, there's been a suggestion that the
    pagers in Lebanon exploded through malware causing them to overheat. Can
    I just check whether the assembled sages think that's at all a plausible explanation, please?

    As others have said: That's not how Lithium batteries fail.

    The news today seems to be that someone (and fingers point at Israel,
    but they haven't admitted it) has interfered with the
    manufacturing/supply process and caused a small explosive charge and
    detonator to be insinuated into the devices in question.

    I doubt that could be done with a modern smartphone -- there's precious
    little free space inside that could be used for such a thing.

    --
    Cheers,
    Daniel.

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  • From GB@21:1/5 to Daniel James on Thu Sep 19 12:31:03 2024
    On 19/09/2024 12:19, Daniel James wrote:
    On 18/09/2024 17:05, GB wrote:
    Without getting at all political, there's been a suggestion that the
    pagers in Lebanon exploded through malware causing them to overheat.
    Can I just check whether the assembled sages think that's at all a
    plausible explanation, please?

    As others have said: That's not how Lithium batteries fail.

    The news today seems to be that someone (and fingers point at Israel,
    but they haven't admitted it) has interfered with the
    manufacturing/supply process and caused a small explosive charge and detonator to be insinuated into the devices in question.

    I doubt that could be done with a modern smartphone -- there's precious little free space inside that could be used for such a thing.


    If you used a half size battery, would that free up enough space? Slow
    the clock down so the phone doesn't run down the smaller battery too
    quickly ...

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  • From Richard Kettlewell@21:1/5 to NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid on Thu Sep 19 15:19:55 2024
    GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> writes:
    On 19/09/2024 12:19, Daniel James wrote:
    As others have said: That's not how Lithium batteries fail. The news
    today seems to be that someone (and fingers point at Israel, but they
    haven't admitted it) has interfered with the manufacturing/supply
    process and caused a small explosive charge and detonator to be
    insinuated into the devices in question. I doubt that could be done
    with a modern smartphone -- there's precious little free space inside
    that could be used for such a thing.

    If you used a half size battery, would that free up enough space? Slow
    the clock down so the phone doesn't run down the smaller battery too
    quickly ...

    The NYT report claims the pager batteries were ‘laced with
    explosive’. Perhaps the same could be applied to smartphones. But I
    expect Hezbollah don’t use smartphones because they get hacked and then
    they have a combined listening device and targetting assistant in their
    pocket.

    --
    https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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  • From Theo@21:1/5 to Richard Kettlewell on Thu Sep 19 15:37:07 2024
    Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> writes:
    On 19/09/2024 12:19, Daniel James wrote:
    As others have said: That's not how Lithium batteries fail. The news
    today seems to be that someone (and fingers point at Israel, but they
    haven't admitted it) has interfered with the manufacturing/supply
    process and caused a small explosive charge and detonator to be
    insinuated into the devices in question. I doubt that could be done
    with a modern smartphone -- there's precious little free space inside
    that could be used for such a thing.

    If you used a half size battery, would that free up enough space? Slow
    the clock down so the phone doesn't run down the smaller battery too quickly ...

    The NYT report claims the pager batteries were ‘laced with
    explosive’.

    I suspect that's one way to not get them to be noticed on X-rays (eg airport scanners) - just make it look like a part of the battery assembly.

    It seems likely that people flew with them, and would have blown the
    operation if they had got stopped for having explosives. They must have
    been sufficiently sealed so as not to be picked up by any sniffers
    (electronic or canine).

    Perhaps the same could be applied to smartphones. But I
    expect Hezbollah don’t use smartphones because they get hacked and then they have a combined listening device and targetting assistant in their pocket.

    Even with dumbphones they're chatting to the tower and you can do traffic analysis - who is going where. That tells you a lot even if you can't
    listen to the communications.

    Theo

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  • From Andy Burns@21:1/5 to All on Thu Sep 19 20:55:23 2024
    GB wrote:

    If you used a half size battery, would that free up enough space?

    The pager in question doesn't even have a lithium rechargeable battery,
    it just takes a AAA. 1/2 length AAA do exist, but the end-user might
    notice if there was one of those plus a stick of C4?

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  • From Andy Burns@21:1/5 to All on Thu Sep 19 21:57:15 2024
    GB wrote:

    you could produce bullets with inappropriate propellant. If you were
    being kind, you might make it so the bullet goes halfway up the barrel
    and then stops - making it a job for an armourer to reactivate the weapon.

    I don't think you've got into the evil warmongering mindset

    If you were being unkind, you could replace the propellant with
    explosive, so the breech explodes.

    Getting there ...

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  • From Woozy Song@21:1/5 to Daniel James on Fri Sep 20 08:22:21 2024
    Daniel James wrote:

    I doubt that could be done with a modern smartphone -- there's precious little free space inside that could be used for such a thing.


    Even for the pager/walkie talkie, you would be needing a bespoke
    detonator to fit in. Mining detonators are a minimum of 38 mm long, and
    only a few mm at the end is actually explosive. Could perhaps make one
    looking like an electolytic capacitor.

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  • From Theo@21:1/5 to Woozy Song on Fri Sep 20 11:35:48 2024
    Woozy Song <suzyw0ng@outlook.com> wrote:
    Daniel James wrote:

    I doubt that could be done with a modern smartphone -- there's precious little free space inside that could be used for such a thing.


    Even for the pager/walkie talkie, you would be needing a bespoke
    detonator to fit in. Mining detonators are a minimum of 38 mm long, and
    only a few mm at the end is actually explosive. Could perhaps make one looking like an electolytic capacitor.

    I don't know anything about high explosive, but it's not hard to
    electronically make a small component very hot. Enough to ignite the
    few grams of explosive charge?

    I suspect mining detonators are carefully designed to not go off unless something very specific happens to them, while shoving a lot of current into
    a resistor controlled by software is not hard.

    Theo

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  • From Gordon@21:1/5 to Andy Burns on Fri Sep 20 23:09:41 2024
    On 2024-09-18, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
    GB wrote:

    Without getting at all political, there's been a suggestion that the
    pagers in Lebanon exploded through malware causing them to overheat. Can
    I just check whether the assembled sages think that's at all a plausible
    explanation, please?
    Not a feasible explanation IMO. If mistreated, lithium batteries go
    with a whoosh, not a bang.

    The media have talked about a small amount of high explosive being in the devices which were set off remotely.

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  • From GlowingBlueMist@21:1/5 to Gordon on Sun Sep 22 12:08:59 2024
    On 9/20/2024 6:09 PM, Gordon wrote:
    On 2024-09-18, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
    GB wrote:

    Without getting at all political, there's been a suggestion that the
    pagers in Lebanon exploded through malware causing them to overheat. Can >>> I just check whether the assembled sages think that's at all a plausible >>> explanation, please?
    Not a feasible explanation IMO. If mistreated, lithium batteries go
    with a whoosh, not a bang.

    The media have talked about a small amount of high explosive being in the devices which were set off remotely.

    I definitely would not want to work for people in the supply chain where
    they bought the pagers and radios. Someone had to be in place for quite
    a while to covertly plant explosives in that many devices.

    Makes one wonder how many other types of electronic devices have had
    explosives installed and sold to the targeted audience and are waiting
    for activation either through an internet or cellular trigger.

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  • From Daniel James@21:1/5 to GlowingBlueMist on Sun Sep 22 18:26:11 2024
    On 22/09/2024 18:08, GlowingBlueMist wrote:
    I definitely would not want to work for people in the supply chain where
    they bought the pagers and radios.  Someone had to be in place for quite
    a while to covertly plant explosives in that many devices.

    That all sounds a bit hit-and-miss ... I suspect someone obtained an
    entire batch of devices, doctored them all, and then resold them to the
    target ... or possibly someone learned that a shipment of devices was
    destined for Lebanon and intercepted the package so that they could be doctored.

    The reports say that pagers and walkie-talkies were being used because
    it was too easy to track and locate people by their cellphones. It seems probable that the devices were bought in bulk from a single supplier.

    --
    Cheers,
    Daniel.

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  • From Jeff Gaines@21:1/5 to Daniel James on Sun Sep 22 19:34:47 2024
    On 22/09/2024 in message <vcpjrn$29jc2$1@dont-email.me> Daniel James wrote:

    On 22/09/2024 18:08, GlowingBlueMist wrote:
    I definitely would not want to work for people in the supply chain where >>they bought the pagers and radios.  Someone had to be in place for quite
    a while to covertly plant explosives in that many devices.

    That all sounds a bit hit-and-miss ... I suspect someone obtained an
    entire batch of devices, doctored them all, and then resold them to the >target ... or possibly someone learned that a shipment of devices was >destined for Lebanon and intercepted the package so that they could be >doctored.

    The reports say that pagers and walkie-talkies were being used because it
    was too easy to track and locate people by their cellphones. It seems >probable that the devices were bought in bulk from a single supplier.

    When solicitors got computers :-)

    --
    Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
    Captcha is thinking of stopping the use of pictures with traffic lights as cyclists don't know what they are.

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  • From Jeff Gaines@21:1/5 to Gaines on Sun Sep 22 20:55:54 2024
    On 22/09/2024 in message <xn0or4m6ulumqpu00r@news.individual.net> Jeff
    Gaines wrote:

    On 22/09/2024 in message <vcpjrn$29jc2$1@dont-email.me> Daniel James wrote:

    On 22/09/2024 18:08, GlowingBlueMist wrote:
    I definitely would not want to work for people in the supply chain where >>>they bought the pagers and radios.  Someone had to be in place for quite >>>a while to covertly plant explosives in that many devices.

    That all sounds a bit hit-and-miss ... I suspect someone obtained an
    entire batch of devices, doctored them all, and then resold them to the >>target ... or possibly someone learned that a shipment of devices was >>destined for Lebanon and intercepted the package so that they could be >>doctored.

    The reports say that pagers and walkie-talkies were being used because it >>was too easy to track and locate people by their cellphones. It seems >>probable that the devices were bought in bulk from a single supplier.

    When solicitors got computers :-)

    I don 't know what went wrong there, that was supposed to be a reply to a
    post in the legal group.

    --
    Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
    That's an amazing invention but who would ever want to use one of them? (President Hayes speaking to Alexander Graham Bell on the invention of the telephone)

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  • From Richard Kettlewell@21:1/5 to Daniel James on Sun Sep 22 23:17:18 2024
    Daniel James <daniel@me.invalid> writes:
    On 22/09/2024 18:08, GlowingBlueMist wrote:
    I definitely would not want to work for people in the supply chain
    where they bought the pagers and radios.  Someone had to be in place
    for quite a while to covertly plant explosives in that many devices.

    That all sounds a bit hit-and-miss ... I suspect someone obtained an
    entire batch of devices, doctored them all, and then resold them to
    the target ... or possibly someone learned that a shipment of devices
    was destined for Lebanon and intercepted the package so that they
    could be doctored.

    Past approaches have included buying the target’s entire supplier,
    e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto_AG.

    --
    https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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