• Does anyone know ...?

    From Daniel James@21:1/5 to All on Sat Aug 13 18:49:15 2022
    SWMBO has one of those very small desktop PCs that's basically laptop
    hardware in an old sandwich packet.

    It's a Lenovo Thinkcentre M73 Tiny. A fairly vanilla Core i3 box with
    an intel H81 chipset. It has VGA and DisplayPort outputs (there's an
    option available for an HDMI or second DP output, but not fitted to her
    PC).

    She's just bought a second monitor. I wired it up to the DP connector
    as her old monitor is on the VGA ... and the desktop comes up nicely on
    the new monitor, but the old one complains of "No signal" and goes to
    sleep. If I unplug the new monitor, the old one works as before.

    Windows 10 offers to look for a second display, but says there isn't
    one.

    The Intel Ark pages for the H81 say that it can support two monitors
    operating independently at once.

    I thought the BIOS might have an option to enable a second monitor, but
    it didn't. I updated the BIOS (which was quite old) and it still
    doesn't.

    I swapped the monitors round (they're the same model) and still the one
    on VGA went to sleep if the DP one was connected.

    Does this ring any bells with anyone? Is there anything else I should
    have tried?

    --
    Cheers,
    Daniel.

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  • From Pancho@21:1/5 to Daniel James on Sat Aug 13 22:15:02 2022
    On 13/08/2022 18:49, Daniel James wrote:

    Does this ring any bells with anyone? Is there anything else I should
    have tried?


    My memory of when multiple monitor support came out, was that the motherboard/display adapter manual would list supported configurations.

    A VGA only monitor sounds very old, does it support HDMI too?

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  • From Abandoned_Trolley@21:1/5 to Pancho on Sun Aug 14 01:27:59 2022
    On 13/08/2022 22:15, Pancho wrote:
    On 13/08/2022 18:49, Daniel James wrote:

    Does this ring any bells with anyone? Is there anything else I should
    have tried?


    My memory of when multiple monitor support came out, was that the motherboard/display adapter manual would list supported configurations.

    A VGA only monitor sounds very old, does it support HDMI too?


    more likely to support DVI ?

    --
    random signature text inserted here

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  • From Philip Herlihy@21:1/5 to All on Sun Aug 14 14:07:31 2022
    In article <VA.00000da9.0019cc4d@me.invalid>, Daniel James wrote...

    In article <td948m$2tqr0$1@dont-email.me>, Pancho wrote:
    My memory of when multiple monitor support came out, was that the motherboard/display adapter manual would list supported configurations.

    The PC was bought refurbished ... the manuals I've found online aren't
    that specific about combinations of displays, but does say that two
    monitors are supported.

    A VGA only monitor sounds very old, does it support HDMI too?

    It's not that the monitors require VGA (they have VGA, DVI-D, HDMI, and
    DP) but that the PC has one VGA and one DP port, so to use two monitors
    one of them would have to be VGA.

    As the PC is a "Tiny" model there's no room for any expansion card.
    Lenovo did sell these with an additional HDMI port (there's a blanking
    plate on the back of the case where this would go) but I don't know
    whether it was ever sold as an upgrade - I certainly haven't been able to find one.

    If I can't get VGA+DP to work the only option left would seem to be a USB display adaptor (or a new PC) but we'd rather not spend the money!

    My question, really, was: The H81 chipset appears to support two
    displays, so is the fact that it's not working here

    a) A Lenovo hardware design limitation
    b) A Lenovo firmware limitation
    c) A Windows10/driver limitation

    I don't think it's a hardware limitation, as I've seen discussion online about getting a *third* display working (you can't, but two apparently
    worked for them, under Windows 7)

    As I said, I've already updated the BIOS to the latest (from 4th Jan this year) ... so I don't think it's a firmware limitation.

    I don't know much about Windows 10, though. I'm more of a Linux guy these days. We appear to have the latest drivers (according to Device Manager)
    but is there anything else I need to get dual-monitor support?

    Thanks for your help.

    Risking getting shot down here, as this isn't a subject I know comprehensively, but I wonder if there's anything in these articles which might help you spot the problem?

    https://bit.ly/3pghs5x
    https://www.computerhope.com/issues/ch000801.htm

    In particular, note the existence of a Function key on most laptops which controls the display when a secondary display is connected (allows you to blank and enable a projector, for example). Google (images) "laptop display function key" for examples of what this looks like.

    How much this functionality overlaps with the Winkey+P control I couldn't say!

    --

    Phil, London

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  • From Daniel James@21:1/5 to Pancho on Sun Aug 14 13:24:09 2022
    In article <td948m$2tqr0$1@dont-email.me>, Pancho wrote:
    My memory of when multiple monitor support came out, was that the motherboard/display adapter manual would list supported configurations.

    The PC was bought refurbished ... the manuals I've found online aren't
    that specific about combinations of displays, but does say that two
    monitors are supported.

    A VGA only monitor sounds very old, does it support HDMI too?

    It's not that the monitors require VGA (they have VGA, DVI-D, HDMI, and
    DP) but that the PC has one VGA and one DP port, so to use two monitors
    one of them would have to be VGA.

    As the PC is a "Tiny" model there's no room for any expansion card.
    Lenovo did sell these with an additional HDMI port (there's a blanking
    plate on the back of the case where this would go) but I don't know
    whether it was ever sold as an upgrade - I certainly haven't been able to
    find one.

    If I can't get VGA+DP to work the only option left would seem to be a USB display adaptor (or a new PC) but we'd rather not spend the money!

    My question, really, was: The H81 chipset appears to support two
    displays, so is the fact that it's not working here

    a) A Lenovo hardware design limitation
    b) A Lenovo firmware limitation
    c) A Windows10/driver limitation

    I don't think it's a hardware limitation, as I've seen discussion online
    about getting a *third* display working (you can't, but two apparently
    worked for them, under Windows 7)

    As I said, I've already updated the BIOS to the latest (from 4th Jan this
    year) ... so I don't think it's a firmware limitation.

    I don't know much about Windows 10, though. I'm more of a Linux guy these
    days. We appear to have the latest drivers (according to Device Manager)
    but is there anything else I need to get dual-monitor support?

    Thanks for your help.

    --
    Cheers,
    Daniel.

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  • From Jaimie Vandenbergh@21:1/5 to All on Sun Aug 14 12:53:43 2022
    On 14 Aug 2022 at 13:24:09 BST, "Daniel James" <daniel@me.invalid>
    wrote:

    I don't know much about Windows 10, though. I'm more of a Linux guy these days. We appear to have the latest drivers (according to Device Manager)
    but is there anything else I need to get dual-monitor support?

    There isn't, so I'd suspect (a) or (b). Have you had a dive through the
    BIOS to see if there's a setting to allow dual? And updated the BIOS?

    Cheers - Jaimie
    --
    "Don't drag me down to your level, meat."
    -- Red Robot #C-63

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  • From Pancho@21:1/5 to Daniel James on Sun Aug 14 15:09:02 2022
    On 14/08/2022 13:24, Daniel James wrote:


    It's not that the monitors require VGA (they have VGA, DVI-D, HDMI, and
    DP) but that the PC has one VGA and one DP port, so to use two monitors
    one of them would have to be VGA.


    AIUI, you can daisy-chain DP monitors. You can connect multiple monitors
    from a single DP port/cable.

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  • From Pancho@21:1/5 to All on Sun Aug 14 15:10:09 2022
    On 14/08/2022 01:27, Abandoned_Trolley wrote:
    On 13/08/2022 22:15, Pancho wrote:
    On 13/08/2022 18:49, Daniel James wrote:

    Does this ring any bells with anyone? Is there anything else I should
    have tried?


    My memory of when multiple monitor support came out, was that the
    motherboard/display adapter manual would list supported configurations.

    A VGA only monitor sounds very old, does it support HDMI too?


    more likely to support DVI ?

    Yes, indeed, how quickly we forget.

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  • From Raj Kundra@21:1/5 to Daniel James on Sun Aug 14 15:59:28 2022
    On 13/08/2022 18:49, Daniel James wrote:
    Thinkcentre M73

    https://support.lenovo.com/gb/en/solutions/ht062228?tabName=Solutions

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  • From Pancho@21:1/5 to Pancho on Sun Aug 14 17:25:21 2022
    On 14/08/2022 15:09, Pancho wrote:
    On 14/08/2022 13:24, Daniel James wrote:


    It's not that the monitors require VGA (they have VGA, DVI-D, HDMI, and
    DP) but that the PC has one VGA and one DP port, so to use two monitors
    one of them would have to be VGA.


    AIUI, you can daisy-chain DP monitors. You can connect multiple monitors
    from a single DP port/cable.

    Actually, Ignore that. You need display port 1.2, which I don't think
    the H81 is.

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  • From Chris@21:1/5 to Daniel James on Mon Aug 15 07:37:45 2022
    Daniel James <daniel@me.invalid> wrote:
    SWMBO has one of those very small desktop PCs that's basically laptop hardware in an old sandwich packet.

    It's a Lenovo Thinkcentre M73 Tiny. A fairly vanilla Core i3 box with
    an intel H81 chipset. It has VGA and DisplayPort outputs (there's an
    option available for an HDMI or second DP output, but not fitted to her
    PC).

    She's just bought a second monitor. I wired it up to the DP connector
    as her old monitor is on the VGA ... and the desktop comes up nicely on
    the new monitor, but the old one complains of "No signal" and goes to
    sleep. If I unplug the new monitor, the old one works as before.

    Windows 10 offers to look for a second display, but says there isn't
    one.

    The Intel Ark pages for the H81 say that it can support two monitors operating independently at once.

    I thought the BIOS might have an option to enable a second monitor, but
    it didn't. I updated the BIOS (which was quite old) and it still
    doesn't.

    I swapped the monitors round (they're the same model) and still the one
    on VGA went to sleep if the DP one was connected.

    Does this ring any bells with anyone? Is there anything else I should
    have tried?

    What's the resolution of the monitor in DP mode? It's possible there's a bandwidth limitation and you can only run two if they're at the same,
    lower, resolution. Probably something like 1280x1024. Or at least start
    with that and if it works keep increasing the resolution until it stops.

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  • From Daniel James@21:1/5 to Philip Herlihy on Mon Aug 15 16:07:00 2022
    In article <MPG.3d6303e68c28891a989a13@news.eternal-september.org>,
    Philip Herlihy wrote:
    Risking getting shot down here, as this isn't a subject I know comprehensively, but ...

    Thanks, Phil. I'm pretty sure you know modern Windows systems better
    than I do.

    I wonder if there's anything in these articles which might help you
    spot the problem?

    https://bit.ly/3pghs5x
    https://www.computerhope.com/issues/ch000801.htm

    The first of those I'd seen already -- the problem is that something
    (Windows, I now suspect) seems to be disabling the VGA output from the
    PC so the monitor goes into standby. The "Detect" button mentioned in
    that article just tells me that there aren't any other monitors, so the dual-monitor option isn't enabled.

    The second is interesting ... but I know how to recognize the ports,
    and as the second monitor isn't being recognized Win+P doesn't help.

    The Question (As I said to Jaimie) is that Windows seems to be
    recognizing the DP monitor and then disabling the VGA one. I'm now
    pretty sure it must be Windows that's doing this as both monitors work
    under Linux.

    In particular, note the existence of a Function key on most laptops
    which controls the display when a secondary display is connected
    (allows you to blank and enable a projector, for example). Google
    (images) "laptop display function key" for examples of what this
    looks like.

    Yes, I know about that -- I often use an external monitor with my
    laptop. The machine I'm trying to get working with two monitors isn't a
    laptop, though, and so doesn't have a "Fn" key like laptops do ... and
    I'm not sure whether I could enter an equivalent code from a normal
    keyboard ... especially as the system isn't recognizing the monitor at
    all anyway. This may be something I should look further into, though,
    so thanks again.

    --
    Cheers,
    Daniel.

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  • From Daniel James@21:1/5 to All on Mon Aug 15 16:06:59 2022
    In article <jls9inFibggU1@mid.individual.net>, Jaimie Vandenbergh
    wrote:
    Have you had a dive through the
    BIOS to see if there's a setting to allow dual? And updated the BIOS?

    I have, and I have.

    I found a support article on the Lenovo website that shows a
    "Multi-Monitor Support" entry in the BIOS that isn't present in the
    BIOS here. I updated the BIOS to the latest and it still isn't present.

    https://pcsupport.lenovo.com/gb/en/solutions/ht062228?tabName=Solutions

    I can only assume that the BIOS for one of the other models of
    ThinkCentre machine covered by that article has such an entry.

    *However* my reply to Pancho yesterday made me think this was probably
    a Windows issue ... so I booted the PC from a Linux Live-USB stick and
    both monitors immediately sprang into life.

    My question is now:

    Why is Windows 10 making the VGA monitor go to sleep when it detects
    that there is a DisplayPort monitor attached?

    (I really don't want to, but I'm starting to think I should take the
    Win10 SSD out and put back the old Win7 HDD to see whether it works
    there.)

    --
    Cheers,
    Daniel.

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  • From Daniel James@21:1/5 to Chris on Mon Aug 15 16:07:00 2022
    In article <tdct49$3hkce$1@dont-email.me>, Chris wrote:
    What's the resolution of the monitor in DP mode? It's possible
    there's a bandwidth limitation and you can only run two if they're
    at the same,

    Good thought ... but these are 1920x1200 monitors which is about the
    limit for VGA but no great shakes for DP.

    They run fine together at that resolution under Linux, so this looks
    like a Windows problem.

    --
    Cheers,
    Daniel.

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  • From Theo@21:1/5 to Daniel James on Mon Aug 15 20:06:37 2022
    Daniel James <daniel@me.invalid> wrote:
    Why is Windows 10 making the VGA monitor go to sleep when it detects
    that there is a DisplayPort monitor attached?

    Just a thought, but I wonder if you have appropriate drivers installed? I think Windows will install to begin with with generic drivers (it used to be
    a SVGA card with an 800x600 display but I think it's better these days,
    maybe FHD) and then Windows Update will pull in all the drivers for the hardware that you have. I did a couple of Windows 10 (Insider) installs
    lately and that's what it did - it did cause the display to resize halfway through, as presumably that was it detecting the display that was attached rather the default resolution.

    Have you checked in Windows update to ensure all the Intel HD graphics
    drivers are installed and up to date? There may also be drivers needed for
    the Displayport controller - not sure what they would be called. Device Manager may tell you if there's something missing - have a poke through all
    the categories and see if anything is complaining.

    I think this machine predates Windows 10 so it may not have shipped with Windows 10 drivers. I think the Intel HD graphics should be fine, but it's possible Lenovo used some Displayport chip that doesn't have Windows 10 drivers. Although I'm not seeing anything like that on the driver download page.

    (I've had that once with a touchscreen - got it to work once under 10 by
    force loading the Win7 drivers, but the next Win10 update killed it)

    Theo

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  • From Chris@21:1/5 to Daniel James on Mon Aug 15 19:19:48 2022
    Daniel James <daniel@me.invalid> wrote:
    In article <tdct49$3hkce$1@dont-email.me>, Chris wrote:
    What's the resolution of the monitor in DP mode? It's possible
    there's a bandwidth limitation and you can only run two if they're
    at the same,

    Good thought ... but these are 1920x1200 monitors which is about the
    limit for VGA but no great shakes for DP.

    They run fine together at that resolution under Linux, so this looks
    like a Windows problem.

    More likely a driver problem. Either you don't have an optimised driver for your machine and/or your set up isn't supported by Win10.

    I would still try the resolution just to be sure.

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  • From Jaimie Vandenbergh@21:1/5 to theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk on Mon Aug 15 20:55:30 2022
    On 15 Aug 2022 at 20:06:37 BST, "Theo"
    <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

    Daniel James <daniel@me.invalid> wrote:
    Why is Windows 10 making the VGA monitor go to sleep when it detects
    that there is a DisplayPort monitor attached?

    Just a thought, but I wonder if you have appropriate drivers installed?

    Mm. I hadn't expected it to be a Windows side issue, but those Intel
    drivers are awful so it certainly could be. And the OEM repackages of
    them are always even worse, and usually years out of date.

    https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/download/19344/intel-graphics-windows-dch-drivers.html
    - see if the chipset is in there.

    Might need to run DDU to unlock the oem-drivers-only limitation too. https://www.wagnardsoft.com/

    Cheers - Jaimie

    --
    The Daily Mail should be forced to print the words
    'The Paper That Supported Hitler' on its masthead,
    just so that there is something that's true on the
    front page every day. -- Mark Thomas

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  • From GlowingBlueMist@21:1/5 to Daniel James on Mon Aug 15 20:40:24 2022
    On 8/13/2022 12:49 PM, Daniel James wrote:
    SWMBO has one of those very small desktop PCs that's basically laptop hardware in an old sandwich packet.

    It's a Lenovo Thinkcentre M73 Tiny. A fairly vanilla Core i3 box with
    an intel H81 chipset. It has VGA and DisplayPort outputs (there's an
    option available for an HDMI or second DP output, but not fitted to her
    PC).

    She's just bought a second monitor. I wired it up to the DP connector
    as her old monitor is on the VGA ... and the desktop comes up nicely on
    the new monitor, but the old one complains of "No signal" and goes to
    sleep. If I unplug the new monitor, the old one works as before.

    Windows 10 offers to look for a second display, but says there isn't
    one.

    The Intel Ark pages for the H81 say that it can support two monitors operating independently at once.

    I thought the BIOS might have an option to enable a second monitor, but
    it didn't. I updated the BIOS (which was quite old) and it still
    doesn't.

    I swapped the monitors round (they're the same model) and still the one
    on VGA went to sleep if the DP one was connected.

    Does this ring any bells with anyone? Is there anything else I should
    have tried?

    Try the two key combination "Windows key" and letter "P" and see if that
    breaks through the problem.
    If it does try the Extend choice and see if both monitors start working
    at the same time.

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  • From Daniel James@21:1/5 to All on Tue Aug 16 16:09:36 2022
    In article <jlvq62F46suU1@mid.individual.net>, Jaimie Vandenbergh
    wrote:
    Mm. I hadn't expected it to be a Windows side issue, but those Intel
    drivers are awful so it certainly could be. And the OEM repackages of
    them are always even worse, and usually years out of date.


    https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/download/19344/intel-graphics-w indows-dch-drivers.html
    - see if the chipset is in there.

    Ah! Thank you Jaimie!

    No, the chipset isn't there -- this is an 13-4130T with the H8 chipset
    so I needed an older driver bundle, but the approach was spot on.

    I had looked at the display drivers in Device Manager (Microsoft Basic
    Display, or something like that) and had clicked "Update" only to be
    told that I already had the best driver for the hardware and it was
    up-to-date ... so although I'm always cynical of messages of that sort
    I knew no better than to believe it. What lies Microsoft tell, eh?

    All working fine, now (once I worked out how to get the two screens in
    the right order).

    Thanks to everyone who gave this some thought.

    --
    Cheers,
    Daniel.

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  • From Daniel James@21:1/5 to GlowingBlueMist on Tue Aug 16 16:09:36 2022
    In article <tdesi8$3s0tp$1@dont-email.me>, GlowingBlueMist wrote:
    Try the two key combination "Windows key" and letter "P" and see
    if that breaks through the problem.

    No, that just told me I only had one monitor. It was a driver issue and
    Jaimie pointed me in the direction of a solution. All working nicely,
    now; but thanks.

    --
    Cheers,
    Daniel.

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  • From Jaimie Vandenbergh@21:1/5 to All on Tue Aug 16 15:40:14 2022
    On 16 Aug 2022 at 16:09:36 BST, "Daniel James" <daniel@me.invalid>
    wrote:

    In article <tdesi8$3s0tp$1@dont-email.me>, GlowingBlueMist wrote:
    Try the two key combination "Windows key" and letter "P" and see
    if that breaks through the problem.

    No, that just told me I only had one monitor. It was a driver issue and Jaimie pointed me in the direction of a solution. All working nicely,
    now; but thanks.

    Hurray! Thanks Theo for pointing out the flaw in my expectations :D

    Rare of me to *not* be pessimistic about Windows, too.

    Cheers - Jaimie
    --
    "Some people think that noise abatement should be a higher
    priority for ATC. I say safety is noise abatement. You have no
    idea how much noise it makes to have a 737 fall out of the sky
    after an accident."
    -- anonymous air traffic controller

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