To summarize the Guardian problem:

1. The station of Guardian was decreed by the Last Will and Testament
of Abdul Baha, a document which some have alleged to be a forgery.
The person appointed to this life-long position was a man by the name
of Shoghi, sometimes referred to with the appended title of respect, Effendi.

2. If the LW&T is not a forgery, then the Guardian's failure to obey
his self-described duties are contrary to what a divinely appointed
authority would be expected to do.

3. These self-described duties include the critical task of
appointing a successor guardian, who would take over after the death
or incapacitation of the preceding guardian. The successor was to
have been appointed in a manner that would leave no room for doubt as
to the validity of the successor's appointment.

4. There is no credible evidence that any successor guardian was ever
appointed in such an unambiguous manner, although there were
claimants.

5. No provision had ever been made concerning the contingency of a
guardian dying without having appointed a successor. Indeed, such a
possibility had never even been mentioned by Shoghi. That is why his
death intestate led to the crisis it did.

6. The combination of these facts decisively refutes the notion that
the Guardianship was ever a divine institution. It also demonstrates
that Shoghi himself never believed that it was. He never made any
attempt, neither to ensure a clear line of succession, nor to
anticipate the lack of a succession.

7. Upon Shoghi's unexpected death, the Hands of the Cause took it
upon themselves to resolve the matter by declaring that henceforth,
the Baha'i Faith would have no living guardian. But they had no
authority to make that declaration. That authority died with Shoghi.

8. Shoghi's death created an unresolvable discrepancy, a
contradiction, that pits the alleged divine authorship of the station
against the physical facts. One cannot have it both ways. For the
station to be of divine authorship, there must be a succession of
guardians, or absent that, some provision to account for a lack of
succession. There was neither.

9. While the Hands made the best they could of a bad situation, their
best was not enough. Nor could it be. Such an irregularity could not
be explained in terms of a divinely appointed station. Shoghi had
been inexcusably, and inexplicably, derelict in his duties, duties
which he himself had repeatedly affirmed in the most emphatic manner.

10. Claimants to the succession of guardianship make such a weak and
flimsy case for their divine authority that their claims make no
improvement regarding the failure of Shoghi to be clear and unambiguous
in the appointment of a successor.

11. Attempts by the UHJ to uphold the actions of the Hands are
equally flimsy and unjustifiable. Even their most contorted
explanations do not suffice to resolve the contradictions.

12. In all likelihood, the LW&T was a forgery by those who sought
power in what they thought would become a powerful world religion.
Even if it was not a forgery, it certainly had no divine authorship,
as demonstrated by its abject failure to bear the fruit which it had
promised.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Hi Bob,

Are you the Remeyite turned Evangelical turned Orthodox I used to see here years ago?
As for the everything in the W&T not working out as expected, I look at it the same way as I look at Jesus' statement "This generation will not pass away until you see the end of these things." In neither case does it mean Abdu'l-Baha or Jesus Christ
weren't divinely inspired.

warmest, Susan

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Even if it was not a forgery, it certainly had no divine authorship,
as demonstrated by its abject failure to bear the fruit which it had promised.

Hi Bob,

Were you the Remeyite-turned evangelical turned Orthodox that I used to see here years ago?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 12:03:51 AM UTC-5, sma...@gmail.com wrote:

Hi Bob,

Are you the Remeyite turned Evangelical turned Orthodox I used to see here years ago?
As for the everything in the W&T not working out as expected, I look at it the same way as I look at Jesus' statement "This generation will not pass away until you see the end of these things." In neither case does it mean Abdu'l-Baha or Jesus Christ

weren't divinely inspired.

warmest, Susan

= = = = =

Hi, Susan,

I seem to remember a Susan Maneck here, years ago, but I was never those things.

I am open-minded about Abdul being a sincerely religious person.
Ruth White was persuaded that he was.

Shoghi was an entirely different story, as I explicate in the OP.

Jesus was not a divinely inspired man, He is God, incomparable to anyone else.

Things "not working out as expected," is a euphemistic way of characterizing Shoghi's
repeated, emphatic declarations, not only about the central core necessity of Guardianship,
but also of his own vital responsibility to ensure a clear, indisputable line of succession,
or failing that, some provision to account for a lack of succession.

It does your case no good to say, well Jesus failed in the same manner, because it
does not explain Shoghi's discrepancy. Blame-shifting is not a valid argument.

Blessings to you!
Robert Arvay
-
-
-

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

To summarize the Guardian problem:

1. The station of Guardian was decreed by the Last Will and Testament
of Abdul Baha, a document which some have alleged to be a forgery.
The person appointed to this life-long position was a man by the name
of Shoghi, sometimes referred to with the appended title of respect, Effendi.

2. If the LW&T is not a forgery, then the Guardian's failure to obey
his self-described duties are contrary to what a divinely appointed
authority would be expected to do.

3. These self-described duties include the critical task of
appointing a successor guardian, who would take over after the death
or incapacitation of the preceding guardian. The successor was to
have been appointed in a manner that would leave no room for doubt as
to the validity of the successor's appointment.

4. There is no credible evidence that any successor guardian was ever
appointed in such an unambiguous manner, although there were
claimants.

5. No provision had ever been made concerning the contingency of a
guardian dying without having appointed a successor. Indeed, such a
possibility had never even been mentioned by Shoghi. That is why his
death intestate led to the crisis it did.

6. The combination of these facts decisively refutes the notion that
the Guardianship was ever a divine institution. It also demonstrates
that Shoghi himself never believed that it was. He never made any
attempt, neither to ensure a clear line of succession, nor to
anticipate the lack of a succession.

7. Upon Shoghi's unexpected death, the Hands of the Cause took it
upon themselves to resolve the matter by declaring that henceforth,
the Baha'i Faith would have no living guardian. But they had no
authority to make that declaration. That authority died with Shoghi.

8. Shoghi's death created an unresolvable discrepancy, a
contradiction, that pits the alleged divine authorship of the station
against the physical facts. One cannot have it both ways. For the
station to be of divine authorship, there must be a succession of
guardians, or absent that, some provision to account for a lack of
succession. There was neither.

9. While the Hands made the best they could of a bad situation, their
best was not enough. Nor could it be. Such an irregularity could not
be explained in terms of a divinely appointed station. Shoghi had
been inexcusably, and inexplicably, derelict in his duties, duties
which he himself had repeatedly affirmed in the most emphatic manner.

10. Claimants to the succession of guardianship make such a weak and
flimsy case for their divine authority that their claims make no
improvement regarding the failure of Shoghi to be clear and unambiguous
in the appointment of a successor.

11. Attempts by the UHJ to uphold the actions of the Hands are
equally flimsy and unjustifiable. Even their most contorted
explanations do not suffice to resolve the contradictions.

12. In all likelihood, the LW&T was a forgery by those who sought
power in what they thought would become a powerful world religion.
Even if it was not a forgery, it certainly had no divine authorship,
as demonstrated by its abject failure to bear the fruit which it had
promised.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)