On Sunday, February 21, 2016 at 5:40:03 AM UTC-8, Yusuf B Gursey wrote:

Musing about Iram and Allah again.

As I had said before Wadi Ramm in Jordan was identified
with 'iram (Iram of the Pillars) by the medieval geographer
Yaqut and inscriptions in Ancient North Arabian script,
and a tribe 3a:d <3d> as in the Qur'an. Now 'iram >
ramm could be simple reetymologizing of a biliteral root.
However, I noticed that it is pronounced rAmm with a distinct
back vowel, and popularly romanized as Wadi Rum, <Rum> to be
read as in the drink "rum". One possibility would be that
the local dialect regularly uses an emphatic r and has a
back vowel associated with it as is normal for Iraqi and
Gulf Arabic. Another possibilty is that it is another case
of secondary emphatic r resulting from contact with a
glottal stop. Thus 'iram > 'ram > RAm > RAmm (triliteralizing).
This happened in Moroccan Arabic: mRA "woman" from Classical
al-mar'a(t) contrasting mra "to shine" from mira:yah "mirror".
I had proposed the same mechanism fro the emphatic l in Allah
al-'ila:h > al'la:h > aLLA:h .
I have to know more about the local though to be sure. Comments welcome, espacially from those who know the speeech of the region.

I had not heard about the Radi Ramm before. Here is more info on it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wadi_Rum

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Musing about Iram and Allah again.

As I had said before Wadi Ramm in Jordan was identified
with 'iram (Iram of the Pillars) by the medieval geographer
Yaqut and inscriptions in Ancient North Arabian script,
and a tribe 3a:d <3d> as in the Qur'an. Now 'iram >
ramm could be simple reetymologizing of a biliteral root.
However, I noticed that it is pronounced rAmm with a distinct
back vowel, and popularly romanized as Wadi Rum, <Rum> to be
read as in the drink "rum". One possibility would be that
the local dialect regularly uses an emphatic r and has a
back vowel associated with it as is normal for Iraqi and
Gulf Arabic. Another possibilty is that it is another case
of secondary emphatic r resulting from contact with a
glottal stop. Thus 'iram > 'ram > RAm > RAmm (triliteralizing).
This happened in Moroccan Arabic: mRA "woman" from Classical
al-mar'a(t) contrasting mra "to shine" from mira:yah "mirror".
I had proposed the same mechanism fro the emphatic l in Allah
al-'ila:h > al'la:h > aLLA:h .
I have to know more about the local though to be sure. Comments welcome, espacially from those who know the speeech of the region.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Regarding the emphatic /r/, we velarize the /r/ before the vowels /a/ and /=
u/ as a rule, with no exceptions. We leave the consonant unvelarized before=
/i/. I would add that the velarization before /a/ is full, with the same e= ffect on the vowel as if /S/ or /D/ preceded it. It is milder before /u/, s=
o the effect on the vowel is not as strong as if a nominally emphatic conso= nant preceded it. Therefore, the velarization of /r/ before /a/ offers no c= lue about a possible contraction before it.

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On Thursday, March 3, 2016 at 8:50:03 AM UTC+2, vossbu...@gmail.com wrote:

Who is "we"?

Regarding the emphatic /r/, we velarize the /r/ before the vowels /a/ and /= u/ as a rule, with no exceptions. We leave the consonant unvelarized before=
/i/. I would add that the velarization before /a/ is full, with the same e= ffect on the vowel as if /S/ or /D/ preceded it. It is milder before /u/, s= o the effect on the vowel is not as strong as if a nominally emphatic conso= nant preceded it. Therefore, the velarization of /r/ before /a/ offers no c= lue about a possible contraction before it.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)