• Interesting Quora - Why did Aztecs in the 1500's still not have metal--

    From a425couple@21:1/5 to All on Mon Aug 2 08:59:16 2021
    XPost: soc.history.what-if, soc.history.war.misc

    Susanna Viljanen
    Follow
    Works at Aalto University Thu

    Why did Aztecs in the 1500's still not have metal when they had metal
    weapons in BC Bible times?

    Because they did not have metallurgy.

    The only metals the Aztecs had were gold, silver and copper. All those
    are Ib group transition elements which are chemically very inert and can
    appear in the nature as bare metals, and smelting copper ore is easy.

    Metals are not something you just have. You have to first discover
    metallurgy (the art of extracting metals from ores) and discover the
    properties of the metals. Mind you the Ancients knew only seven metals
    (Au, Ag, Cu, Fe, Pb, Hg, Sn) and one (Zn) as an alloy (but did not know
    which metal it was).

    Bronze smelting had been invented in Mesoamerica by 1300 (the Aztec
    state was founded in 1325) and bronze was used as decorative purposes -
    its qualities had not been discovered yet. Notably, certain artifacts
    from West Mexico contain tin or arsenic at concentrations as high as 23
    weight percent, while concentrations of alloying elements at roughly 2
    to 5 weight percent Sn are typically adequate for augmented strength and mechanical utility.

    So the Aztecs (and other Mexica cultures) simply did not realize the
    usefulness of decent bronze as weapons and armour material - the
    invention was a novelty, and they already had obsidian, which is
    incredibly sharp. They had some bronze axes, but they appear to have
    been novelties. By the time of the Spanish conquest, a bronze-smelting technology seemed to have been be nascent.

    Ferrometallurgy - the art of producing iron and steel - was brought in Mesoamerica by the Spanish.

    --------------------------

    Chaso Kunmaka
    Fri
    Didn't Mexica also know how to melt lead (and tin, since how come the
    bronze axes then)?


    Jonathan Graifer
    Fri
    Tin on it's own isn't particularly useful without certain technologies,
    so it's primary value for most of history was for use in bronze. Lead is
    only useful on it's own for casting, all applications of which the
    Mexica and other mesoamerican cultures had other, generally superior, alternatives to; why bother mining and casting lead for sling bullets
    when you have perfectly good stone and clay? Why make arrowheads out of
    it when the only armor anybody uses is padded cotton soaked in saltwater
    or cured hide, and obsidian is more than enough to deal with that?

    Profile photo for Gareth Adamson
    Gareth Adamson
    Sat
    Presumably, once metals start to be available there is an arms race as
    they are used for both weapons and armour. But this was happening slowly
    in the Americas because of the relatively low level of competition, i.e.
    there weren’t many different powers wanting to fight each other. It
    looks as though they were just about entering their bronze age, which
    puts them about 4,500 years behind the main Eurasian powers.

    Profile photo for Jonathan Graifer
    Jonathan Graifer
    Sun
    Eh, not exactly. They just didn't see any *need* to change how they did
    things. As already noted, bronze axes were already a thing, and while characterizing then as “novelties" isn't exactly correct, they just
    didn't see any purpose in adapting bronze for warfare. After all, the
    real benefit of bronze over stone is that you can make longer, more
    durable blades…. But mesoamericans had already found a workaround for
    that over a millenium before: short obsidian blades set in pitch-filled
    grooves around the edge of wooden paddles. The macuahuital was all they
    needed.

    It's like asking why they never developed the wheel; they DID have it.
    They used it for making pottery and on children's toys. It was never
    needed for transportation because wheeled carts are only truly efficient
    when paired with draft animals substantially stronger than a human.

    The only domesticated draft animals native to the Americas were isolated
    in the Andes, Llamas and Alpacas, both of which are as strong or barely stronger than a human, and in places where narrow, winding roads are
    prevalent. So in Peru you got runners or pack trains, while everyone
    else made do with A-frame sledges, boats, or what they could carry.


    Gareth Adamson
    Sun
    I think what this misses is the element of feedback when considering the environment in which developments take place, especially in military
    matters. The mountains aren’t changing, so you’re never going to have
    much use for wheels. (At least not until you have motors to power them.)
    But when it comes to arms, the environment is not static in the same
    way, because the main consideration is: what does your opponent have? If
    the opponent adopts a technological improvement, you must match or
    better it, or face conquest.

    This might happen quite slowly at first, but the more intense the
    military competition, the greater the pressure towards technological innovation.

    Jonathan Graifer
    Sun
    But nobody adopted bronze for armor or weapons in the Americas. They
    felt it wasn't needed, obsidian was better; took a better edge, was
    readily available, and less work to maintain, so they didn't bother.

    Profile photo for Gareth Adamson
    Gareth Adamson
    Sun
    Yes, they were only at the very beginning of their bronze age. They
    hadn’t yet found the optimum formula for bronze either.

    Jonathan Graifer
    4h ago
    Ironically, the PNW cultures did have a flourishing tradition of copper
    working before contact, and skipped over bronze altogether using
    drift-iron: already refined iron salvaged from wrecks that washed up
    after crossing the Pacific. When the colonial powers came into contact
    with groups like the Tlingit and Haida, they already had their own
    traditions, skillset, and vocabulary surrounding the art of re-forging
    this iron, but no means of producing their own.

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  • From Peter Jason@21:1/5 to All on Tue Aug 3 07:20:51 2021
    XPost: soc.history.what-if, soc.history.war.misc

    Ironically, the PNW cultures did have a flourishing tradition of copper >working before contact, and skipped over bronze altogether using
    drift-iron: already refined iron salvaged from wrecks that washed up
    after crossing the Pacific. When the colonial powers came into contact
    with groups like the Tlingit and Haida, they already had their own >traditions, skillset, and vocabulary surrounding the art of re-forging
    this iron, but no means of producing their own.

    The iron implements from Egyptian tombs may have come from meteorites.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From SolomonW@21:1/5 to All on Tue Aug 3 16:17:58 2021
    XPost: soc.history.what-if, soc.history.war.misc

    On Mon, 2 Aug 2021 08:59:16 -0700, a425couple wrote:

    Bronze smelting had been invented in Mesoamerica by 1300 (the Aztec
    state was founded in 1325) and bronze was used as decorative purposes -
    its qualities had not been discovered yet. Notably, certain artifacts
    from West Mexico contain tin or arsenic at concentrations as high as 23 weight percent, while concentrations of alloying elements at roughly 2
    to 5 weight percent Sn are typically adequate for augmented strength and mechanical utility.

    Interesting that they knew of bronze.


    So the Aztecs (and other Mexica cultures) simply did not realize the usefulness of decent bronze as weapons and armour material - the
    invention was a novelty, and they already had obsidian, which is
    incredibly sharp. They had some bronze axes, but they appear to have
    been novelties. By the time of the Spanish conquest, a bronze-smelting technology seemed to have been be nascent.


    I suspect the reason is cost. In Europe in the Bronze Age, bronze swords
    were very expensive. That is why most warriors, even nobles, used spears.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From pyotr filipivich@21:1/5 to All on Tue Aug 3 07:30:46 2021
    XPost: soc.history.what-if, soc.history.war.misc

    SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com> on Tue, 3 Aug 2021 16:17:58 +1000 typed
    in soc.history.what-if the following:
    On Mon, 2 Aug 2021 08:59:16 -0700, a425couple wrote:

    Bronze smelting had been invented in Mesoamerica by 1300 (the Aztec
    state was founded in 1325) and bronze was used as decorative purposes -
    its qualities had not been discovered yet. Notably, certain artifacts
    from West Mexico contain tin or arsenic at concentrations as high as 23
    weight percent, while concentrations of alloying elements at roughly 2
    to 5 weight percent Sn are typically adequate for augmented strength and
    mechanical utility.

    Interesting that they knew of bronze.

    Did they "know" of bronze, or just have some?

    That is, did they know that this metal, and that kind of
    'dirt'/stone, when heated together made 'bronze'? Or did they just
    know that this batch was different, and still usable for some values
    of useable?

    So the Aztecs (and other Mexica cultures) simply did not realize the
    usefulness of decent bronze as weapons and armour material - the
    invention was a novelty, and they already had obsidian, which is
    incredibly sharp. They had some bronze axes, but they appear to have
    been novelties. By the time of the Spanish conquest, a bronze-smelting
    technology seemed to have been be nascent.

    I suspect the reason is cost. In Europe in the Bronze Age, bronze swords
    were very expensive. That is why most warriors, even nobles, used spears.

    Another example of where technology drives tactics.
    --
    pyotr filipivich
    "History rarely repeats herself" is the cliche. In reality she just
    lets fly with a frying pan yelling "Why weren't you listening the first time!?"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From a425couple@21:1/5 to Peter Jason on Tue Aug 3 08:29:00 2021
    XPost: soc.history.what-if, soc.history.war.misc

    On 8/2/2021 2:20 PM, Peter Jason wrote:

    Ironically, the PNW cultures did have a flourishing tradition of copper
    working before contact, and skipped over bronze altogether using
    drift-iron: already refined iron salvaged from wrecks that washed up
    after crossing the Pacific. When the colonial powers came into contact
    with groups like the Tlingit and Haida, they already had their own
    traditions, skillset, and vocabulary surrounding the art of re-forging
    this iron, but no means of producing their own.

    The iron implements from Egyptian tombs may have come from meteorites.


    IF (!!) I recall correctly,
    Someone did a study and found a number of the
    best Viking swords had come from a big meteorite.

    Hmmm, I can not find, but below is similar idea:

    Ryuseito, the Meteor Swords, are the Japanese swords made from iron
    meteorite in 1898. They were manufactured by Japanese notable swordsmith Okayoshi Kunimune by the order of Viscount Enomoto Takeaki in Meiji period.

    THE JAPANESE SWORDS MADE FROM SHIRAHAGI IRON ...
    https://www.hou.usra.edu › metsoc2019 › pdfPDF

    Splitting the Heavens: 4 Real Swords Made of Meteorites
    https://www.ripleys.com › Weird News
    Tentetsuou: The Sword of Heaven ... Forged from fragments of the
    prehistoric Gibeon meteorite, Tentetsuou is a katana forged by
    swordsmith ...
    May 20, 2015 · Uploaded by AWE me

    'Sword of Heaven' katana blade forged from meteorite - CNET https://www.cnet.com › news › sword-of-heaven-katana...
    May 18, 2015 — The "Sword of Heaven" is a blade fit for a space samurai.
    The elegant katana blade is made with metal from an ancient meteorite.

    Swords Forged From Meteorites - Ronin Katana
    https://roninkatana.com › meteorite-swords
    Ronin uses the crucible method of metal extraction from the meteorites.
    The meteorites are smashed up, placed in stainless steel crucibles, and
    heated until the ...

    Here we go:

    Meteoric Swords - Sword Buyers Guide
    https://www.sword-buyers-guide.com › meteoric-swords
    From the Mughal Emperor Jahangir, who 400 years ago actually saw the
    meteorite fall from the sky and found it to have his blade made, to Tsar Alexander ...
    Aug 28, 2017 · Uploaded by AWE me

    How useful is a sword made of meteoric steel? -
    Quorahttps://www.quora.com › How-useful-is-a-sword-made-...
    The composition would be highly variable between different meteors. This focuses on how to find the rarest and valuable metal: iron, in the
    bronze age! There ...
    5 answers

    ·

    Top answer:
    Well, compared to modern steel, it would function significantly worse, and

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  • From SolomonW@21:1/5 to pyotr filipivich on Wed Aug 4 16:40:34 2021
    XPost: soc.history.what-if, soc.history.war.misc

    On Tue, 03 Aug 2021 07:30:46 -0700, pyotr filipivich wrote:

    SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com> on Tue, 3 Aug 2021 16:17:58 +1000 typed
    in soc.history.what-if the following:
    On Mon, 2 Aug 2021 08:59:16 -0700, a425couple wrote:

    Bronze smelting had been invented in Mesoamerica by 1300 (the Aztec
    state was founded in 1325) and bronze was used as decorative purposes -
    its qualities had not been discovered yet. Notably, certain artifacts
    from West Mexico contain tin or arsenic at concentrations as high as 23
    weight percent, while concentrations of alloying elements at roughly 2
    to 5 weight percent Sn are typically adequate for augmented strength and >>> mechanical utility.

    Interesting that they knew of bronze.

    Did they "know" of bronze, or just have some?

    That is, did they know that this metal, and that kind of
    'dirt'/stone, when heated together made 'bronze'? Or did they just
    know that this batch was different, and still usable for some values
    of useable?

    It appears that they did know about bronze.

    https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Metallurgy_in_pre-Columbian_Mesoamerica

    https://www.mexicolore.co.uk/aztecs/home/mesoamerican-copper-industry-of-connections

    but there is always a but, precisely what they knew about it and what they thought of it is disputed.



    So the Aztecs (and other Mexica cultures) simply did not realize the
    usefulness of decent bronze as weapons and armour material - the
    invention was a novelty, and they already had obsidian, which is
    incredibly sharp. They had some bronze axes, but they appear to have
    been novelties. By the time of the Spanish conquest, a bronze-smelting
    technology seemed to have been be nascent.

    I suspect the reason is cost. In Europe in the Bronze Age, bronze swords >>were very expensive. That is why most warriors, even nobles, used spears.

    Another example of where technology drives tactics.

    Hitler, once seeing on a map his lines unable to move from lack of
    material, remarked that ultimately war is economics.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From pyotr filipivich@21:1/5 to All on Sat Aug 7 08:04:53 2021
    XPost: soc.history.what-if, soc, .history.war.misc

    SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com> on Wed, 4 Aug 2021 16:40:34 +1000 typed
    in soc.history.what-if the following:
    On Tue, 03 Aug 2021 07:30:46 -0700, pyotr filipivich wrote:
    SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com> on Tue, 3 Aug 2021 16:17:58 +1000 typed
    in soc.history.what-if the following:
    On Mon, 2 Aug 2021 08:59:16 -0700, a425couple wrote:
    [snip]
    So the Aztecs (and other Mexica cultures) simply did not realize the
    usefulness of decent bronze as weapons and armour material - the
    invention was a novelty, and they already had obsidian, which is
    incredibly sharp. They had some bronze axes, but they appear to have
    been novelties. By the time of the Spanish conquest, a bronze-smelting >>>> technology seemed to have been be nascent.

    I suspect the reason is cost. In Europe in the Bronze Age, bronze swords >>>were very expensive. That is why most warriors, even nobles, used spears.

    Another example of where technology drives tactics.

    Hitler, once seeing on a map his lines unable to move from lack of
    material, remarked that ultimately war is economics.

    Truly this is an old problem: "Or what king, going out to
    encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and deliberate
    whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him
    with twenty thousand? And if not, while the other is yet a great way
    off, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace. " (Gospel of
    Luke 14:31ff)

    --
    pyotr filipivich
    "History rarely repeats herself" is the cliche. In reality she just
    lets fly with a frying pan yelling "Why weren't you listening the first time!?"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From SolomonW@21:1/5 to pyotr filipivich on Sun Aug 8 10:36:12 2021
    XPost: soc.history.what-if, soc, .history.war.misc

    On Sat, 07 Aug 2021 08:04:53 -0700, pyotr filipivich wrote:

    SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com> on Wed, 4 Aug 2021 16:40:34 +1000 typed
    in soc.history.what-if the following:
    On Tue, 03 Aug 2021 07:30:46 -0700, pyotr filipivich wrote:
    SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com> on Tue, 3 Aug 2021 16:17:58 +1000 typed
    in soc.history.what-if the following:
    On Mon, 2 Aug 2021 08:59:16 -0700, a425couple wrote:
    [snip]
    So the Aztecs (and other Mexica cultures) simply did not realize the >>>>> usefulness of decent bronze as weapons and armour material - the
    invention was a novelty, and they already had obsidian, which is
    incredibly sharp. They had some bronze axes, but they appear to have >>>>> been novelties. By the time of the Spanish conquest, a bronze-smelting >>>>> technology seemed to have been be nascent.

    I suspect the reason is cost. In Europe in the Bronze Age, bronze swords >>>>were very expensive. That is why most warriors, even nobles, used spears. >>>
    Another example of where technology drives tactics.

    Hitler, once seeing on a map his lines unable to move from lack of >>material, remarked that ultimately war is economics.

    Truly this is an old problem: "Or what king, going out to
    encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and deliberate
    whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him
    with twenty thousand? And if not, while the other is yet a great way
    off, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace. " (Gospel of
    Luke 14:31ff)

    In practice one hears far too often,

    ´If one Rebel can whip 10 Yankees, how many Yankees can two Rebels whip?"

    'We have only to kick in the front door and the whole rotten edifice will
    come tumbling down'

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From pyotr filipivich@21:1/5 to All on Sun Aug 8 13:45:14 2021
    XPost: soc.history.what-if, soc, .history.war.misc

    SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com> on Sun, 8 Aug 2021 10:36:12 +1000 typed
    in soc.history.what-if the following:
    On Sat, 07 Aug 2021 08:04:53 -0700, pyotr filipivich wrote:

    SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com> on Wed, 4 Aug 2021 16:40:34 +1000 typed
    in soc.history.what-if the following:
    On Tue, 03 Aug 2021 07:30:46 -0700, pyotr filipivich wrote:
    SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com> on Tue, 3 Aug 2021 16:17:58 +1000 typed
    in soc.history.what-if the following:
    On Mon, 2 Aug 2021 08:59:16 -0700, a425couple wrote:
    [snip]
    So the Aztecs (and other Mexica cultures) simply did not realize the >>>>>> usefulness of decent bronze as weapons and armour material - the
    invention was a novelty, and they already had obsidian, which is
    incredibly sharp. They had some bronze axes, but they appear to have >>>>>> been novelties. By the time of the Spanish conquest, a bronze-smelting >>>>>> technology seemed to have been be nascent.

    I suspect the reason is cost. In Europe in the Bronze Age, bronze swords >>>>>were very expensive. That is why most warriors, even nobles, used spears. >>>>
    Another example of where technology drives tactics.

    Hitler, once seeing on a map his lines unable to move from lack of >>>material, remarked that ultimately war is economics.

    Truly this is an old problem: "Or what king, going out to
    encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and deliberate
    whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him
    with twenty thousand? And if not, while the other is yet a great way
    off, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace. " (Gospel of
    Luke 14:31ff)

    In practice one hears far too often,

    ´If one Rebel can whip 10 Yankees, how many Yankees can two Rebels whip?"

    'We have only to kick in the front door and the whole rotten edifice will >come tumbling down'

    Ayup.

    Another given is that wars are most often "stumbled into" when
    there is an apparent equality of forces and one side assumes that
    their superior morale / elan / ideology / brand of sausage will
    overcome any other lack.
    Or, the invaders are unaware of a "small minor detail" which is
    not so small, minor or a detail. E.G. the effectiveness of the T-34,
    the ability of the Chinese to field a large army in Korea without
    UNKOR forces (I.e., MacArthur) knowing about it. Etc.
    --
    pyotr filipivich
    "History rarely repeats herself" is the cliche. In reality she just
    lets fly with a frying pan yelling "Why weren't you listening the first time!?"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)