Ironically, the PNW cultures did have a flourishing tradition of copper >working before contact, and skipped over bronze altogether using
drift-iron: already refined iron salvaged from wrecks that washed up
after crossing the Pacific. When the colonial powers came into contact
with groups like the Tlingit and Haida, they already had their own >traditions, skillset, and vocabulary surrounding the art of re-forging
this iron, but no means of producing their own.
Bronze smelting had been invented in Mesoamerica by 1300 (the Aztec
state was founded in 1325) and bronze was used as decorative purposes -
its qualities had not been discovered yet. Notably, certain artifacts
from West Mexico contain tin or arsenic at concentrations as high as 23 weight percent, while concentrations of alloying elements at roughly 2
to 5 weight percent Sn are typically adequate for augmented strength and mechanical utility.
So the Aztecs (and other Mexica cultures) simply did not realize the usefulness of decent bronze as weapons and armour material - the
invention was a novelty, and they already had obsidian, which is
incredibly sharp. They had some bronze axes, but they appear to have
been novelties. By the time of the Spanish conquest, a bronze-smelting technology seemed to have been be nascent.
On Mon, 2 Aug 2021 08:59:16 -0700, a425couple wrote:
Bronze smelting had been invented in Mesoamerica by 1300 (the Aztec
state was founded in 1325) and bronze was used as decorative purposes -
its qualities had not been discovered yet. Notably, certain artifacts
from West Mexico contain tin or arsenic at concentrations as high as 23
weight percent, while concentrations of alloying elements at roughly 2
to 5 weight percent Sn are typically adequate for augmented strength and
mechanical utility.
Interesting that they knew of bronze.
So the Aztecs (and other Mexica cultures) simply did not realize the
usefulness of decent bronze as weapons and armour material - the
invention was a novelty, and they already had obsidian, which is
incredibly sharp. They had some bronze axes, but they appear to have
been novelties. By the time of the Spanish conquest, a bronze-smelting
technology seemed to have been be nascent.
I suspect the reason is cost. In Europe in the Bronze Age, bronze swords
were very expensive. That is why most warriors, even nobles, used spears.
Ironically, the PNW cultures did have a flourishing tradition of copper
working before contact, and skipped over bronze altogether using
drift-iron: already refined iron salvaged from wrecks that washed up
after crossing the Pacific. When the colonial powers came into contact
with groups like the Tlingit and Haida, they already had their own
traditions, skillset, and vocabulary surrounding the art of re-forging
this iron, but no means of producing their own.
The iron implements from Egyptian tombs may have come from meteorites.
SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com> on Tue, 3 Aug 2021 16:17:58 +1000 typed
in soc.history.what-if the following:
On Mon, 2 Aug 2021 08:59:16 -0700, a425couple wrote:
Bronze smelting had been invented in Mesoamerica by 1300 (the Aztec
state was founded in 1325) and bronze was used as decorative purposes -
its qualities had not been discovered yet. Notably, certain artifacts
from West Mexico contain tin or arsenic at concentrations as high as 23
weight percent, while concentrations of alloying elements at roughly 2
to 5 weight percent Sn are typically adequate for augmented strength and >>> mechanical utility.
Interesting that they knew of bronze.
Did they "know" of bronze, or just have some?
That is, did they know that this metal, and that kind of
'dirt'/stone, when heated together made 'bronze'? Or did they just
know that this batch was different, and still usable for some values
of useable?
So the Aztecs (and other Mexica cultures) simply did not realize the
usefulness of decent bronze as weapons and armour material - the
invention was a novelty, and they already had obsidian, which is
incredibly sharp. They had some bronze axes, but they appear to have
been novelties. By the time of the Spanish conquest, a bronze-smelting
technology seemed to have been be nascent.
I suspect the reason is cost. In Europe in the Bronze Age, bronze swords >>were very expensive. That is why most warriors, even nobles, used spears.
Another example of where technology drives tactics.
On Tue, 03 Aug 2021 07:30:46 -0700, pyotr filipivich wrote:[snip]
SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com> on Tue, 3 Aug 2021 16:17:58 +1000 typed
in soc.history.what-if the following:
On Mon, 2 Aug 2021 08:59:16 -0700, a425couple wrote:
So the Aztecs (and other Mexica cultures) simply did not realize the
usefulness of decent bronze as weapons and armour material - the
invention was a novelty, and they already had obsidian, which is
incredibly sharp. They had some bronze axes, but they appear to have
been novelties. By the time of the Spanish conquest, a bronze-smelting >>>> technology seemed to have been be nascent.
I suspect the reason is cost. In Europe in the Bronze Age, bronze swords >>>were very expensive. That is why most warriors, even nobles, used spears.
Another example of where technology drives tactics.
Hitler, once seeing on a map his lines unable to move from lack of
material, remarked that ultimately war is economics.
SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com> on Wed, 4 Aug 2021 16:40:34 +1000 typed
in soc.history.what-if the following:
On Tue, 03 Aug 2021 07:30:46 -0700, pyotr filipivich wrote:[snip]
SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com> on Tue, 3 Aug 2021 16:17:58 +1000 typed
in soc.history.what-if the following:
On Mon, 2 Aug 2021 08:59:16 -0700, a425couple wrote:
Another example of where technology drives tactics.So the Aztecs (and other Mexica cultures) simply did not realize the >>>>> usefulness of decent bronze as weapons and armour material - the
invention was a novelty, and they already had obsidian, which is
incredibly sharp. They had some bronze axes, but they appear to have >>>>> been novelties. By the time of the Spanish conquest, a bronze-smelting >>>>> technology seemed to have been be nascent.
I suspect the reason is cost. In Europe in the Bronze Age, bronze swords >>>>were very expensive. That is why most warriors, even nobles, used spears. >>>
Hitler, once seeing on a map his lines unable to move from lack of >>material, remarked that ultimately war is economics.
Truly this is an old problem: "Or what king, going out to
encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and deliberate
whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him
with twenty thousand? And if not, while the other is yet a great way
off, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace. " (Gospel of
Luke 14:31ff)
On Sat, 07 Aug 2021 08:04:53 -0700, pyotr filipivich wrote:
SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com> on Wed, 4 Aug 2021 16:40:34 +1000 typed
in soc.history.what-if the following:
On Tue, 03 Aug 2021 07:30:46 -0700, pyotr filipivich wrote:[snip]
SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com> on Tue, 3 Aug 2021 16:17:58 +1000 typed
in soc.history.what-if the following:
On Mon, 2 Aug 2021 08:59:16 -0700, a425couple wrote:
Another example of where technology drives tactics.So the Aztecs (and other Mexica cultures) simply did not realize the >>>>>> usefulness of decent bronze as weapons and armour material - the
invention was a novelty, and they already had obsidian, which is
incredibly sharp. They had some bronze axes, but they appear to have >>>>>> been novelties. By the time of the Spanish conquest, a bronze-smelting >>>>>> technology seemed to have been be nascent.
I suspect the reason is cost. In Europe in the Bronze Age, bronze swords >>>>>were very expensive. That is why most warriors, even nobles, used spears. >>>>
Hitler, once seeing on a map his lines unable to move from lack of >>>material, remarked that ultimately war is economics.
Truly this is an old problem: "Or what king, going out to
encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and deliberate
whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him
with twenty thousand? And if not, while the other is yet a great way
off, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace. " (Gospel of
Luke 14:31ff)
In practice one hears far too often,
´If one Rebel can whip 10 Yankees, how many Yankees can two Rebels whip?"
'We have only to kick in the front door and the whole rotten edifice will >come tumbling down'
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