XPost: alt.fan.heinlein

from https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/why-dragons-dominated-the-landscape-of-medieval-monsters-180978939/

(Going to the citation to see the paintings
might be worthwhile.)

Why Dragons Dominated the Landscape of Medieval Monsters
The mythical beasts were often cast as agents of the devil or demons in disguise

David M. Perry and Matthew Gabriele
October 27, 2021
Illustration of medieval dragons and saints

During the Middle Ages, dragons more often figured in accounts about the
lives of saints and religious figures than stories of heists and
adventures. Photo illustration by Meilan Solly / Photos via Wikimedia
Commons and British Library under public domain

The dragon resting on its golden hoard. The gallant knight charging to
rescue the maiden from the scaly beast. These are images long associated
with the European Middle Ages, yet most (all) medieval people went their
whole lives without meeting even a single winged, fire-breathing
behemoth. Dragons and other monsters, nights dark and full of terror,
lurked largely in the domain of stories—tales, filtered through the intervening centuries and our own interests, that remain with us today.

As Halloween approaches, we’re naturally thinking about scary stories.
Though horror today is most often about entertainment—the thrill of the
jump scare or the suspense of the thriller—it hasn’t always been that
way. In the European Middle Ages, monster stories served as religious
teaching tools, offering examples of what not to do, manifestations of
the threats posed by the supernatural and the diabolical, and metaphors
for the evil humans do to one another.

Medieval people told tales about all kinds of monsters, including
ghosts, werewolves and women who turned into serpents on Saturdays. But
dragons held a special place in both the modern imagination and the
medieval one. As historian Scott Bruce, editor of the newly released
Penguin Book of Dragons, explains, dragons in the medieval mindset stood
“as the enemies of humankind, against which we measure the prowess of
our heroes.” As such, they were neatly and easily folded into Christian tradition, “often cast … as agents of the devil or demons in disguise.”

Preview thumbnail for 'The Penguin Book of Dragons
The Penguin Book of Dragons
Two thousand years of legend and lore about the menace and majesty of
dragons, which have breathed fire into our imaginations from ancient
Rome to "Game of Thrones"
BUY

Over the past few years, Bruce, a historian at Fordham University, has developed wide-ranging expertise in how medieval people talked about
monsters. In 2016, he published The Penguin Book of the Undead, and in
2018, The Penguin Book of Hell. Collections of texts from the ancient,
medieval and early modern worlds, these books allow readers to see for themselves how people from the past thought about things that went bump
in the night. According to Bruce, one of the reasons he collaborated
with Penguin on the series is that he wanted to make “these fascinating themes … accessible to general readers,” demonstrating that monsters of
the past are not the same as modern ones.

Why Dragons Dominated the Landscape of Medieval Monsters
Illuminated manuscript featuring Saint Marina and the dragon Public
domain via Wikimedia Commons
Though they sometimes appeared as foes to be overcome in valiant single
combat, dragons in the European Middle Ages more often figured in
accounts about the lives of saints and religious figures than stories of
heists and adventures. In the sixth century, for example, French bishop
and poet Venantius Fortunatus wrote about a bishop of Paris named
Marcellus, who, in front of the gathered citizens of the city, drove off
a dragon that had devoured a sinful noblewoman’s corpse. The bishop
bonked the dragon on the head three times, led it through Paris on a
leash, then banished it back to the forest so it would never trouble the
city again.

Similarly, the Byzantine historian Michael Psellos wrote in the 11th
century of a dragon that tormented Saint Marina. Thrown in jail and
tortured by a Roman official who wanted to sexually violate her, Marina encountered a demon in the form of a dragon. The monster threatened her, ignored her prayers and swallowed her whole. Undeterred, writes Bruce,
Marina “made the sign of holy Christ, and, as this sign went down ahead
of the rest of her, they ruptured the dragon’s innards. … [H]e was split asunder and died.”

Dragons could also embody, in scales and fire, the defeated menace of
paganism, as was the case with Saint George. A third-century military
saint from the eastern Mediterranean, George supposedly slew his dragon
in the Roman province of Libya in North Africa. For later Christians,
this monster represented the pagans of the era, threatening the virtue
of Christian maidens only to be defeated by the knight. By the time dragon-slaying became the most commonly portrayed element of his story,
during the High Middle Ages, George‘s battle was also used to talk about contemporary Western knighthood and conflicts between Christians and
Muslims. The saint was heavily invoked, for example, by the Latin
Christians who took Jerusalem in 1099.

Why Dragons Dominated the Landscape of Medieval Monsters
Bernat Martorell, Saint George Killing the Dragon, 1435 Public domain
via Wikimedia Commons

Thus the monsters of the medieval era are simultaneously natural and supernatural, both metaphors and more than that. Venantius’ dragon is a creature of the forest, while Psellos’ dragon is another form of a
demon. George’s dragon embodies the church’s very human enemies. In each case, these dragons are part of the landscape—a danger to be confronted,
or at least pondered, in everyday life. Medieval people weren’t more superstitious or credulous than modern ones. For people of the past,
however, monster stories weren’t just about being scary. They were
moralizing tales that held warnings and lessons for Christians hoping to achieve salvation.

In this way, perhaps our own modern world is not so different. In
Venantius’ story, the dragon haunts a tomb as a (super)natural
punishment for the deceased’s sins, offering a warning that those sins
will be known. Psellos’ dragon appears in a prison, a supernatural manifestation of danger posed to Marina by the government official. And George’s dragon patrols the borderlands of the civilized world,
representing the dangers of perceived outsiders. We in the 21st century
have different anxieties, different boundaries drawn around us—but we
still have monsters.

Why Dragons Dominated the Landscape of Medieval Monsters
Paolo Uccello, Saint George and the Dragon, circa 1470 Public domain via Wikimedia Commons

Look again at our own scary tales, and you’ll find our deepest fears.
Freddy Krueger lurks in our neighborhood, ready to murder our kids.
Skynet, from the Terminator movies, is just one of many reflections of
our fear of machines taking over. The Demogorgon, a monster from the
Netflix series “Stranger Things,” emerges from secret government experiments. As “Monster Theory” scholar Jeffrey Jerome Cohen once
asked, “Do monsters really exist? Surely they must, for if they did not,
how could we?”

Monsters, both medieval and modern, are indeed a part of our everyday
lives. We wonder along with Venantius if someone can be forgiven for the
harm they’ve done to others in their life, how we can reckon with the consequences of those actions after the sinners have died. Like Psellos,
we can understand the torment and inner strength of a young woman
suffering abuse at the hands of a powerful man. That common humanity,
the one that creates monsters to terrify, as well as the one that has to
face those monsters, is what fascinate us as historians, that led us to
tell similar stories (admittedly with only one dragon) in our
forthcoming book. The monsters we see in our imagination, as well as the monsters that will be knocking on our doors this Halloween, are
ultimately versions of ourselves.

Preview thumbnail for 'The Bright Ages: A New History of Medieval Europe
The Bright Ages: A New History of Medieval Europe
A lively and magisterial popular history that refutes common
misperceptions of the European Middle Ages, showing the beauty and
communion that flourished alongside the dark brutality—a brilliant
reflection of humanity itself.

BUY
David M. Perry | | READ MORE

David M. Perry is a freelance journalist covering politics, history,
education, and disability rights. He was previously a professor of
medieval history at Dominican University from 2006-2017.

Matthew Gabriele | | READ MORE

Matthew Gabriele is a professor of medieval studies and chair of the
Department of Religion & Culture at Virginia Tech. His latest book,
co-authored with David M. Perry, is The Bright Ages: A New History of
Medieval Europe (Harper, December 2021). See more at profgabriele.com

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.fan.heinlein

On Thu, 28 Oct 2021 11:04:01 -0700, a425couple wrote:

Why Dragons Dominated the Landscape of Medieval Monsters
The mythical beasts were often cast as agents of the devil or demons in disguise

What I would like to know is why the Dragons also dominate the Chinese and Islamic landscape at the same time.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.fan.heinlein

On 10/28/2021 11:09 PM, SolomonW wrote:

On Thu, 28 Oct 2021 11:04:01 -0700, a425couple wrote:

Why Dragons Dominated the Landscape of Medieval Monsters
The mythical beasts were often cast as agents of the devil or demons in
disguise

What I would like to know is why the Dragons also dominate the Chinese and Islamic landscape at the same time.

Good question!

One response:
"What is the origin of dragons?
Scholars say that belief in dragons probably evolved independently
in both Europe and China, and perhaps in the Americas and Australia
as well. How could this happen? Many have speculated about which
real-life animals inspired the first legends. Jan 23, 2012"

from https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/where-did-dragons-come-from-23969126/

Where Did Dragons Come From?
In honor of the Year of the Dragon, we take a look at some potential inspirations for the dragon myth

Joseph Stromberg
Joseph Stromberg

January 23, 2012
Dragon statue
A dragon statue in Ljubljana, Slovenia Wikicommons
Around the world, people are celebrating the Chinese New Year and the
start to the Year of the Dragon. This got us wondering: Where did the
myth of the dragon come from in the first place? Scholars say that
belief in dragons probably evolved independently in both Europe and
China, and perhaps in the Americas and Australia as well. How could this happen? Many have speculated about which real-life animals inspired the
first legends. Here’s our run-down of the likeliest suspects.

Dinosaurs. Ancient people may have discovered dinosaur fossils and understandably misinterpreted them as the remains of dragons. Chang Qu,
a Chinese historian from the 4th century B.C., mislabeled such a fossil
in what is now Sichuan Province. Take a look at a fossilized
stegosaurus, for example, and you might see why: The giant beasts
averaged 30 feet in length, were typically 14 feet tall and were covered
in armored plates and spikes for defense.


The Nile Crocodile. Native to sub-Saharan Africa, Nile crocodiles may
have had a more extensive range in ancient times, perhaps inspiring
European dragon legends by swimming across the Mediterranean to Italy or Greece. They are among the largest of all crocodile species, with mature individuals reaching up to 18 feet in length—and unlike most others,
they are capable of a movement called the “high walk,” in which the
trunk is elevated off the ground. A giant, lumbering croc? Might be easy
to mistake for a dragon.

The Goanna. Australia is home to a number of species of monitor lizards,
also referred to as Goannas. The large, predatory animals have
razor-sharp teeth and claws, and they are important figures in
traditional Aboriginal folklore. Recent studies even indicate that
Goannas may produce venom that causes bite victims’ wounds to develop infections after an attack. At least in Australia, these creatures may
be responsible for the dragon myth.

Whales. Others argue that the discovery of megafauna such as whales
prompted stories of dragons. Ancient humans encountering whale bones
would have no way of knowing that the animals were sea-based, and the
idea of such gargantuan creatures might well have led people to assume
that whales were predatory. Because live whales spend up to 90 percent
of their time underwater, they were poorly understood for most of human history.

The Human Brain. The most fascinating explanation involves an unexpected animal: the human. In his book An Instinct for Dragons, anthropologist
David E. Jones argues that belief in dragons is so widespread among
ancient cultures because evolution embedded an innate fear of predators
in the human mind. Just as monkeys have been shown to exhibit a fear of
snakes and large cats, Jones hypothesizes that the trait of fearing
large predators—such as pythons, birds of prey and elephants—has been selected for in hominids. In more recent times, he argues, these
universal fears have been frequently combined in folklore and created
the myth of the dragon.


Joseph Stromberg was previously a digital reporter for Smithsonian.

EVERYBODY LOVES LISTS EVOLUTION FOSSILS REPTILES THEORIES AND DISCOVERY RECOMMENDED VIDEOS

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.fan.heinlein

On 10/29/2021 8:29 AM, a425couple wrote:

On 10/28/2021 11:09 PM, SolomonW wrote:

On Thu, 28 Oct 2021 11:04:01 -0700, a425couple wrote:

Why Dragons Dominated the Landscape of Medieval Monsters
The mythical beasts were often cast as agents of the devil or demons in
disguise

What I would like to know is why the Dragons also dominate the Chinese
and
Islamic landscape at the same time.

Good question!

One response:
"What is the origin of dragons?
Scholars say that belief in dragons probably evolved independently
in both Europe and China, and perhaps in the Americas and Australia
as well. How could this happen? Many have speculated about which
real-life animals inspired the first legends. Jan 23, 2012"

from https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/where-did-dragons-come-from-23969126/

---------

January 23, 2012
Dragon statue
A dragon statue in Ljubljana, Slovenia Wikicommons
Around the world, people are celebrating the Chinese New Year and the
start to the Year of the Dragon. This got us wondering: Where did the
myth of the dragon come from in the first place? Scholars say that
belief in dragons probably evolved independently in both Europe and
China, and perhaps in the Americas and Australia as well. How could this happen? Many have speculated about which real-life animals inspired the
first legends. Here’s our run-down of the likeliest suspects.

Dinosaurs. Ancient people may have discovered dinosaur fossils and understandably misinterpreted them as the remains of dragons. Chang Qu,
a Chinese historian from the 4th century B.C., mislabeled such a fossil
in what is now Sichuan Province. Take a look at a fossilized
stegosaurus, for example, and you might see why: The giant beasts
averaged 30 feet in length, were typically 14 feet tall and were covered
in armored plates and spikes for defense.

The Nile Crocodile. Native to sub-Saharan Africa, Nile crocodiles may
have had a more extensive range in ancient times, -----

The Human Brain. The most fascinating explanation involves an unexpected animal: the human. In his book An Instinct for Dragons, anthropologist
David E. Jones argues that belief in dragons is so widespread among
ancient cultures because evolution embedded an innate fear of predators
in the human mind. Just as monkeys have been shown to exhibit a fear of snakes and large cats, Jones hypothesizes that the trait of fearing
large predators—such as pythons, birds of prey and elephants—has been selected for in hominids. In more recent times, he argues, these
universal fears have been frequently combined in folklore and created
the myth of the dragon.
----

or
https://www.livescience.com/25559-dragons.html

Dragons: A Brief History of the Mythical, Fire-Breathing Beasts
By Benjamin Radford April 11, 2019

Dragons are among the most popular and enduring of the world's
mythological creatures.

Dragon tales are known in many cultures, from the Americas to Europe,
and from India to China. They have a long and rich history in many forms
and continue to populate our books, films and television shows.

It's not clear when or where stories of dragons first emerged, but the
huge, flying serpents were described at least as early as the age of the ancient Greeks and Sumerians. For much of history dragons were thought
of as being like any other mythical animal: sometimes useful and
protective, other times harmful and dangerous. [Top 10 Beasts and
Dragons: How Reality Made Myth]

That changed when Christianity spread across the world; dragons took on
a decidedly sinister interpretation and came to represent Satan. In
medieval times, most people who heard anything about dragons knew them
from the Bible, and it's likely that most Christians at the time
believed in the literal existence of dragons. After all, Leviathan — the massive monster described in detail in the Book of Job, chapter 41 —
sounds like a dragon:

----- no one knew what to make of the giant bones that were
occasionally unearthed around the globe ---

Dragons go way back
The word "dragon" comes from the ancient Greek word "draconta,"
meaning "to watch," suggesting that the beast guards treasure,---

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.fan.heinlein

On Fri, 29 Oct 2021 17:09:07 +1100, SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com>
wrote:

On Thu, 28 Oct 2021 11:04:01 -0700, a425couple wrote:

Why Dragons Dominated the Landscape of Medieval Monsters
The mythical beasts were often cast as agents of the devil or demons in
disguise

What I would like to know is why the Dragons also dominate the Chinese and >Islamic landscape at the same time.

Near miss by a comet.

See Mike Baillie.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Saturday, October 30, 2021 at 4:36:38 AM UTC+1, Eric Stevens wrote:

On Fri, 29 Oct 2021 17:09:07 +1100, SolomonW <Solo...@citi.com>
wrote:

On Thu, 28 Oct 2021 11:04:01 -0700, a425couple wrote:

Why Dragons Dominated the Landscape of Medieval Monsters
The mythical beasts were often cast as agents of the devil or demons in
disguise

What I would like to know is why the Dragons also dominate the Chinese and >Islamic landscape at the same time.

Near miss by a comet.

See Mike Baillie.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

Y ddraig goch am byth!

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.fan.heinlein

On Fri, 29 Oct 2021 19:29:40 -0700, a425couple wrote:

Dragon tales are known in many cultures, from the Americas to Europe,
and from India to China. They have a long and rich history in many forms
and continue to populate our books, films and television shows.

These American dragons do not fly

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_dragons_in_mythology_and_folklore

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 10/30/2021 12:56 AM, Surreyman wrote:

On Saturday, October 30, 2021 at 4:36:38 AM UTC+1, Eric Stevens wrote:

On Fri, 29 Oct 2021 17:09:07 +1100, SolomonW <Solo...@citi.com>
wrote:

On Thu, 28 Oct 2021 11:04:01 -0700, a425couple wrote:

Why Dragons Dominated the Landscape of Medieval Monsters
The mythical beasts were often cast as agents of the devil or demons in >>>> disguise

What I would like to know is why the Dragons also dominate the Chinese and >>> Islamic landscape at the same time.

Near miss by a comet.

See Mike Baillie.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

Y ddraig goch am byth!

Who killed the Welsh dragon?

Saint George
George then killed the dragon, beheading it with his sword, and the body
was carted out of the city on four ox-carts. The king built a church to
the Blessed Virgin Mary and Saint George on the site where the dragon
died and a spring flowed from its altar with water that cured all disease.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sunday, October 31, 2021 at 4:05:37 PM UTC, a425couple wrote:

On 10/30/2021 12:56 AM, Surreyman wrote:

On Saturday, October 30, 2021 at 4:36:38 AM UTC+1, Eric Stevens wrote:

On Fri, 29 Oct 2021 17:09:07 +1100, SolomonW <Solo...@citi.com>
wrote:

On Thu, 28 Oct 2021 11:04:01 -0700, a425couple wrote:

Why Dragons Dominated the Landscape of Medieval Monsters
The mythical beasts were often cast as agents of the devil or demons in >>>> disguise

What I would like to know is why the Dragons also dominate the Chinese and
Islamic landscape at the same time.

Near miss by a comet.

See Mike Baillie.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

Y ddraig goch am byth!

Who killed the Welsh dragon?

Saint George
George then killed the dragon, beheading it with his sword, and the body
was carted out of the city on four ox-carts. The king built a church to
the Blessed Virgin Mary and Saint George on the site where the dragon
died and a spring flowed from its altar with water that cured all disease.

But a mere Turkish dragon, methinks?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.fan.heinlein

On 10/28/2021 11:04 AM, a425couple wrote:

from https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/why-dragons-dominated-the-landscape-of-medieval-monsters-180978939/

(Going to the citation to see the paintings
might be worthwhile.)

Why Dragons Dominated the Landscape of Medieval Monsters
The mythical beasts were often cast as agents of the devil or demons in disguise

I find this one,,, from the America's interesting.


Brazilian dragons Boitatá Boitatá, Brazilian, the name comes from the
Old Tupi language and means "fiery serpent" (mboî tatá). Its great fiery
eyes leave it almost blind by day, but by night, it can see everything. According to legend, Boi-tatá one was a big serpent which survived a
great deluge.

"Great deluge" again!

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 10/31/2021 10:14 AM, Surreyman wrote:

On Sunday, October 31, 2021 at 4:05:37 PM UTC, a425couple wrote:

On 10/30/2021 12:56 AM, Surreyman wrote:

On Saturday, October 30, 2021 at 4:36:38 AM UTC+1, Eric Stevens wrote:

On Fri, 29 Oct 2021 17:09:07 +1100, SolomonW <Solo...@citi.com>
wrote:

On Thu, 28 Oct 2021 11:04:01 -0700, a425couple wrote:

Why Dragons Dominated the Landscape of Medieval Monsters
The mythical beasts were often cast as agents of the devil or demons in >>>>>> disguise

What I would like to know is why the Dragons also dominate the Chinese and
Islamic landscape at the same time.

Near miss by a comet.

See Mike Baillie.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

Y ddraig goch am byth!

Who killed the Welsh dragon?

Saint George
George then killed the dragon, beheading it with his sword, and the body
was carted out of the city on four ox-carts. The king built a church to
the Blessed Virgin Mary and Saint George on the site where the dragon
died and a spring flowed from its altar with water that cured all disease.

But a mere Turkish dragon, methinks?

I read from the cite:

Turckic dragons Ejderha or Evren The Turkish dragon secretes flames from its tail, and there is no mention in any legends of its having wings, or
even legs. In fact, most Turkish (and later Islamic) sources describe
dragons as gigantic snakes.

"flames from tails" - that reminds me of a trick I
saw often enough done in the US Marine corps.
Most gloriously done after a big Mexican meal.
Big blue blow torch!!

and also,,,, what?

Welsh Dragons Y Ddraig Goch
In Welsh mythology, after a long battle (which the Welsh King Vortigern witnesses) a red dragon defeats a white dragon; Merlin explains to
Vortigern that the red dragon symbolizes the Welsh, and the white dragon symbolizes the Saxons – thus foretelling the ultimate defeat of the
English by the Welsh. The ddraig goch appears on the Welsh national flag.

Ahhh, are we still awaiting the Welsh defeating the
English, or did that happen without being properly
recorded in the history books?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Monday, November 1, 2021 at 6:02:02 PM UTC, a425couple wrote:

On 10/31/2021 10:14 AM, Surreyman wrote:

On Sunday, October 31, 2021 at 4:05:37 PM UTC, a425couple wrote:

On 10/30/2021 12:56 AM, Surreyman wrote:

On Saturday, October 30, 2021 at 4:36:38 AM UTC+1, Eric Stevens wrote: >>>> On Fri, 29 Oct 2021 17:09:07 +1100, SolomonW <Solo...@citi.com>

wrote:

On Thu, 28 Oct 2021 11:04:01 -0700, a425couple wrote:

Why Dragons Dominated the Landscape of Medieval Monsters
The mythical beasts were often cast as agents of the devil or demons in
disguise

What I would like to know is why the Dragons also dominate the Chinese and
Islamic landscape at the same time.

Near miss by a comet.

See Mike Baillie.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

Y ddraig goch am byth!

Who killed the Welsh dragon?

Saint George
George then killed the dragon, beheading it with his sword, and the body >> was carted out of the city on four ox-carts. The king built a church to >> the Blessed Virgin Mary and Saint George on the site where the dragon
died and a spring flowed from its altar with water that cured all disease.

But a mere Turkish dragon, methinks?

I read from the cite:

Turckic dragons Ejderha or Evren The Turkish dragon secretes flames from
its tail, and there is no mention in any legends of its having wings, or even legs. In fact, most Turkish (and later Islamic) sources describe dragons as gigantic snakes.

"flames from tails" - that reminds me of a trick I
saw often enough done in the US Marine corps.
Most gloriously done after a big Mexican meal.
Big blue blow torch!!

and also,,,, what?

Welsh Dragons Y Ddraig Goch
In Welsh mythology, after a long battle (which the Welsh King Vortigern witnesses) a red dragon defeats a white dragon; Merlin explains to
Vortigern that the red dragon symbolizes the Welsh, and the white dragon symbolizes the Saxons – thus foretelling the ultimate defeat of the English by the Welsh. The ddraig goch appears on the Welsh national flag.

Ahhh, are we still awaiting the Welsh defeating the
English, or did that happen without being properly
recorded in the history books?

There is an appropriate rejoinder that ends in the word "Saes"!

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 11/2/2021 1:06 AM, Surreyman wrote:

On Monday, November 1, 2021 at 6:02:02 PM UTC, a425couple wrote:

On 10/31/2021 10:14 AM, Surreyman wrote:

On Sunday, October 31, 2021 at 4:05:37 PM UTC, a425couple wrote:

On 10/30/2021 12:56 AM, Surreyman wrote:

On Saturday, October 30, 2021 at 4:36:38 AM UTC+1, Eric Stevens wrote: >>>>>> On Fri, 29 Oct 2021 17:09:07 +1100, SolomonW <Solo...@citi.com>

wrote:

On Thu, 28 Oct 2021 11:04:01 -0700, a425couple wrote:

Why Dragons Dominated the Landscape of Medieval Monsters
The mythical beasts were often cast as agents of the devil or demons in
disguise

---------------

Ahhh, are we still awaiting the Welsh defeating the
English, or did that happen without being properly
recorded in the history books?

There is an appropriate rejoinder that ends in the word "Saes"!

I was about to give up, but then by luck
I stumbled into this cite:
(I think you owe me a much easier one for next time!!!)

https://anglotopia.net/countries/wales/brit-languages-ten-welsh-language-insults/

BRIT LANGUAGES: TEN WELSH LANGUAGE INSULTS
October 14, 2020 By John Rabon No Comments

SUBSCRIBE FOR DAILY UPDATES OF BRITISH NEWS
Get free daily updates on happy British news, culture, heritage, and
history right in your inbox!

Email Address *
Learning another language is fun, but what good is it if you don’t learn
how to insult someone? Welsh as a language has been around for hundreds
of years, evolving out of Britonic Celtic. Modern Welsh has existed
since the 16th Century and thousands of people all over the world still
speak it, though you’re most likely to use it in Northern and Central
parts of Wales. So if you find yourself in Wales and someone cuts you
off in traffic, jumps in front of the queue, or doesn’t agree that Tom
Jones is one of the greatest singers of our time, you’ll know what to
say with one of these devastating insults.

TWLL DIN POB SAES!
In English, this phrase literally translates to “Assholes to all Englishmen!” though more pointedly means “All Englishmen are assholes!”
It’s no secret that Wales and England do not have the best of
histories as various groups from the Anglo-Saxons to the House of
Lancaster. In 2007, an employee of the London pub The Feathers painted
this on a sign and it took a while for anyone to discover the prank.
The jig was up after a Welsh-speaking member of the management company
let the landlord know what it really meant.

FEL RHECH MEWN POT JAM
This phrase translates to “like a fart in a jam jar” and essentially
means that something or someone is useless. For bonus points, “rhech” (with the “ch” pronounced like the Scottish word loch).

DIM GWERTH RHECH DAFAD
If you got the last one, this phrase should be a piece of cake. Similar
to the phrase above, this phrase translates to “not worth a sheep’s fart.”

COC Y GARTH/COC OEN
Both of these expressions express some sort of surprise or dismay and
translate to “the cat’s willy” and “lamb’s willy” respectively. The
former is more a generalized expression while the latter is usually
directed at a person, like calling someone a d**khead.

DOS I CHWARAE EFO DY NAIN
Colloquially, the meaning is yet another colorful way to say “f**k off”, though it translates in English to “go play with your gran”.

CONT CASEG
This is a phrase typically used to describe a loose woman and translates
to “a mare’s vagina” though the last word in that translation is a cover for a word we really can’t use in print.

DREWGI
After something that strong, this one is a bit easier on the ears.
“Drewgi” translates as “smelly dog” and is directed not necessarily towards someone who actually stinks, but just someone you don’t like
very much—at all.

CACHU HWCH
Interestingly, the individual words translate to “everyone” and “sow”, though together the phrase means “pig’s poo” and is used when everything’s gone quite wrong. This is also the title of the first
episode of “Staged” with David Tennant and Michael Sheen, a show filmed from home during the quarantine. The premise of the program is that the
two play fictional versions of themselves who were due to be in a West
End show before the pandemic forced them to rehearse at home.

PAID A CHODI PAIS WEDI PISIO
In English, we might use the phrase “don’t cry over spilled milk”, but
in Welsh, the equivalent is this, which literally translates into “don’t lift your petticoat after you’ve peed”. It could be used as a simple
“oh well” or a more pointed direction to stop complaining about something.

DIAWL
This literally translates from Welsh as “devil”, but it’s much much
ruder than it sounds. It’s essentially the nuclear option for someone
you really really don’t like, an utter and complete bastard of a human
being.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thursday, November 4, 2021 at 6:12:17 PM UTC, a425couple wrote:

On 11/2/2021 1:06 AM, Surreyman wrote:

On Monday, November 1, 2021 at 6:02:02 PM UTC, a425couple wrote:

On 10/31/2021 10:14 AM, Surreyman wrote:

On Sunday, October 31, 2021 at 4:05:37 PM UTC, a425couple wrote:

On 10/30/2021 12:56 AM, Surreyman wrote:

On Saturday, October 30, 2021 at 4:36:38 AM UTC+1, Eric Stevens wrote: >>>>>> On Fri, 29 Oct 2021 17:09:07 +1100, SolomonW <Solo...@citi.com> >>>>>> wrote:

On Thu, 28 Oct 2021 11:04:01 -0700, a425couple wrote:

Why Dragons Dominated the Landscape of Medieval Monsters
The mythical beasts were often cast as agents of the devil or demons in
disguise

---------------

Ahhh, are we still awaiting the Welsh defeating the
English, or did that happen without being properly
recorded in the history books?

There is an appropriate rejoinder that ends in the word "Saes"!

I was about to give up, but then by luck
I stumbled into this cite:
(I think you owe me a much easier one for next time!!!)

https://anglotopia.net/countries/wales/brit-languages-ten-welsh-language-insults/

BRIT LANGUAGES: TEN WELSH LANGUAGE INSULTS
October 14, 2020 By John Rabon No Comments

SUBSCRIBE FOR DAILY UPDATES OF BRITISH NEWS
Get free daily updates on happy British news, culture, heritage, and
history right in your inbox!

Email Address *
Learning another language is fun, but what good is it if you don’t learn how to insult someone? Welsh as a language has been around for hundreds
of years, evolving out of Britonic Celtic. Modern Welsh has existed
since the 16th Century and thousands of people all over the world still speak it, though you’re most likely to use it in Northern and Central parts of Wales. So if you find yourself in Wales and someone cuts you
off in traffic, jumps in front of the queue, or doesn’t agree that Tom Jones is one of the greatest singers of our time, you’ll know what to
say with one of these devastating insults.

TWLL DIN POB SAES!
In English, this phrase literally translates to “Assholes to all Englishmen!” though more pointedly means “All Englishmen are assholes!”
It’s no secret that Wales and England do not have the best of
histories as various groups from the Anglo-Saxons to the House of
Lancaster. In 2007, an employee of the London pub The Feathers painted
this on a sign and it took a while for anyone to discover the prank.
The jig was up after a Welsh-speaking member of the management company
let the landlord know what it really meant.

FEL RHECH MEWN POT JAM
This phrase translates to “like a fart in a jam jar” and essentially means that something or someone is useless. For bonus points, “rhech” (with the “ch” pronounced like the Scottish word loch).

DIM GWERTH RHECH DAFAD
If you got the last one, this phrase should be a piece of cake. Similar
to the phrase above, this phrase translates to “not worth a sheep’s fart.”

COC Y GARTH/COC OEN
Both of these expressions express some sort of surprise or dismay and translate to “the cat’s willy” and “lamb’s willy” respectively. The
former is more a generalized expression while the latter is usually
directed at a person, like calling someone a d**khead.

DOS I CHWARAE EFO DY NAIN
Colloquially, the meaning is yet another colorful way to say “f**k off”, though it translates in English to “go play with your gran”.

CONT CASEG
This is a phrase typically used to describe a loose woman and translates
to “a mare’s vagina” though the last word in that translation is a cover
for a word we really can’t use in print.

DREWGI
After something that strong, this one is a bit easier on the ears. “Drewgi” translates as “smelly dog” and is directed not necessarily towards someone who actually stinks, but just someone you don’t like
very much—at all.

CACHU HWCH
Interestingly, the individual words translate to “everyone” and “sow”,
though together the phrase means “pig’s poo” and is used when everything’s gone quite wrong. This is also the title of the first
episode of “Staged” with David Tennant and Michael Sheen, a show filmed from home during the quarantine. The premise of the program is that the
two play fictional versions of themselves who were due to be in a West
End show before the pandemic forced them to rehearse at home.

PAID A CHODI PAIS WEDI PISIO
In English, we might use the phrase “don’t cry over spilled milk”, but in Welsh, the equivalent is this, which literally translates into “don’t lift your petticoat after you’ve peed”. It could be used as a simple “oh well” or a more pointed direction to stop complaining about something.

DIAWL
This literally translates from Welsh as “devil”, but it’s much much ruder than it sounds. It’s essentially the nuclear option for someone
you really really don’t like, an utter and complete bastard of a human being.

The first was spot on - and well done! :-))

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.fan.heinlein

SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com> wrote:

On Thu, 28 Oct 2021 11:04:01 -0700, a425couple wrote:

Why Dragons Dominated the Landscape of Medieval Monsters
The mythical beasts were often cast as agents of the devil or demons in
disguise

What I would like to know is why the Dragons also dominate the Chinese and Islamic landscape at the same time.

Maybe dinosaur skeletons helped?

--
biblioholic medievalist via iPad

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: alt.fan.heinlein

On 11/18/2021 6:19 AM, Erilar wrote:

SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com> wrote:

On Thu, 28 Oct 2021 11:04:01 -0700, a425couple wrote:

Why Dragons Dominated the Landscape of Medieval Monsters
The mythical beasts were often cast as agents of the devil or demons in
disguise

What I would like to know is why the Dragons also dominate the Chinese and >> Islamic landscape at the same time.

Maybe dinosaur skeletons helped?

Yes, quite likely.
More readings at:

Were dinosaur fossils excavated during ancient and medieval ... https://www.quora.com › Were-dinosaur-fossils-excavated...
Jul 12, 2017 · 7 answers
Yes, they were the primary explanation for dragons and the like. They
would find bones of some enormous beast, with sharp teeth and massive
claws, ...

Why weren't dinosaurs discovered in Middle Ages or ...
55 answers
Jul 25, 2017

Is the lack of dinosaur fossils in the Middle Ages and ...
5 answers
Jan 3, 2018

Did dinosaurs exist in the 1500s? Are dragons and ...
7 answers
Jun 16, 2018

Did archaeologists of ancient civilizations ever ...
21 answers
Oct 4, 2014

More results from www.quora.com

---------------

Here is one that seems quite worthwhile:

Why weren’t dinosaurs discovered in Middle Ages or Renaissance?

Susanna Viljanen
, works at Aalto University
Answered 3 years ago · Author has 8K answers and 107.4M answer views

They were. They were just called dragons - or griffins.

Yes, the Medieval miners did find bones of large reptilian creatures in
the mines in the rock. They did dig up the remains of dinosaurs. They
just called them dragons.

The mythical dragon does indeed have its roots in the meatspace. The
Romans already knew the African rock python (Python sebae) which can
devour a small human (check out the legend of St. Margaret). They knew crocodiles and they knew monitor lizards, and they were aware large
reptilians do exist. So finding the dinosaur bones and skeletons was
merely logical - those were dragons in the eyes of the Medieval and
Renaissance scholars. So dragons certainly did exist. The only problem
was that they were long extinct - nobody had thought that.

See the trop Dinosaurs Are Dragons (and especially the Real Life
section). Myths do not come from empty air. They usually have some
semblance in the real life.

Oh, and how about the mythical griffin, the mix-matchup of eagle and
lion, the most fearsome predators of air and land? It almost certainly
was the result of misinterpration of Protoceratops, a small vegetarian
dinosaur whose skeletons have been found in abundance in Iran, Gobi
Desert and Mongolia. See Griffin Bones.

3.9K viewsView upvotes

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thursday, October 28, 2021 at 11:04:00 AM UTC-7, a425couple wrote:

from https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/why-dragons-dominated-the-landscape-of-medieval-monsters-180978939/

(Going to the citation to see the paintings
might be worthwhile.)

Why Dragons Dominated the Landscape of Medieval Monsters
The mythical beasts were often cast as agents of the devil or demons in disguise

David M. Perry and Matthew Gabriele
October 27, 2021
Illustration of medieval dragons and saints

During the Middle Ages, dragons more often figured in accounts about the lives of saints and religious figures than stories of heists and
adventures. Photo illustration by Meilan Solly / Photos via Wikimedia Commons and British Library under public domain

The dragon resting on its golden hoard. The gallant knight charging to rescue the maiden from the scaly beast. These are images long associated with the European Middle Ages, yet most (all) medieval people went their whole lives without meeting even a single winged, fire-breathing
behemoth. Dragons and other monsters, nights dark and full of terror,
lurked largely in the domain of stories—tales, filtered through the intervening centuries and our own interests, that remain with us today.

As Halloween approaches, we’re naturally thinking about scary stories. Though horror today is most often about entertainment—the thrill of the jump scare or the suspense of the thriller—it hasn’t always been that way. In the European Middle Ages, monster stories served as religious teaching tools, offering examples of what not to do, manifestations of
the threats posed by the supernatural and the diabolical, and metaphors
for the evil humans do to one another.

Medieval people told tales about all kinds of monsters, including
ghosts, werewolves and women who turned into serpents on Saturdays. But dragons held a special place in both the modern imagination and the
medieval one. As historian Scott Bruce, editor of the newly released
Penguin Book of Dragons, explains, dragons in the medieval mindset stood “as the enemies of humankind, against which we measure the prowess of
our heroes.” As such, they were neatly and easily folded into Christian tradition, “often cast … as agents of the devil or demons in disguise.”

Preview thumbnail for 'The Penguin Book of Dragons
The Penguin Book of Dragons
Two thousand years of legend and lore about the menace and majesty of dragons, which have breathed fire into our imaginations from ancient
Rome to "Game of Thrones"
BUY

Over the past few years, Bruce, a historian at Fordham University, has developed wide-ranging expertise in how medieval people talked about monsters. In 2016, he published The Penguin Book of the Undead, and in
2018, The Penguin Book of Hell. Collections of texts from the ancient, medieval and early modern worlds, these books allow readers to see for themselves how people from the past thought about things that went bump
in the night. According to Bruce, one of the reasons he collaborated
with Penguin on the series is that he wanted to make “these fascinating themes … accessible to general readers,” demonstrating that monsters of the past are not the same as modern ones.

Why Dragons Dominated the Landscape of Medieval Monsters
Illuminated manuscript featuring Saint Marina and the dragon Public
domain via Wikimedia Commons
Though they sometimes appeared as foes to be overcome in valiant single combat, dragons in the European Middle Ages more often figured in
accounts about the lives of saints and religious figures than stories of heists and adventures. In the sixth century, for example, French bishop
and poet Venantius Fortunatus wrote about a bishop of Paris named
Marcellus, who, in front of the gathered citizens of the city, drove off
a dragon that had devoured a sinful noblewoman’s corpse. The bishop
bonked the dragon on the head three times, led it through Paris on a
leash, then banished it back to the forest so it would never trouble the city again.

Similarly, the Byzantine historian Michael Psellos wrote in the 11th
century of a dragon that tormented Saint Marina. Thrown in jail and
tortured by a Roman official who wanted to sexually violate her, Marina encountered a demon in the form of a dragon. The monster threatened her, ignored her prayers and swallowed her whole. Undeterred, writes Bruce, Marina “made the sign of holy Christ, and, as this sign went down ahead
of the rest of her, they ruptured the dragon’s innards. … [H]e was split asunder and died.”

Dragons could also embody, in scales and fire, the defeated menace of paganism, as was the case with Saint George. A third-century military
saint from the eastern Mediterranean, George supposedly slew his dragon
in the Roman province of Libya in North Africa. For later Christians,
this monster represented the pagans of the era, threatening the virtue
of Christian maidens only to be defeated by the knight. By the time dragon-slaying became the most commonly portrayed element of his story, during the High Middle Ages, George‘s battle was also used to talk about contemporary Western knighthood and conflicts between Christians and Muslims. The saint was heavily invoked, for example, by the Latin
Christians who took Jerusalem in 1099.

Why Dragons Dominated the Landscape of Medieval Monsters
Bernat Martorell, Saint George Killing the Dragon, 1435 Public domain
via Wikimedia Commons

Thus the monsters of the medieval era are simultaneously natural and supernatural, both metaphors and more than that. Venantius’ dragon is a creature of the forest, while Psellos’ dragon is another form of a
demon. George’s dragon embodies the church’s very human enemies. In each case, these dragons are part of the landscape—a danger to be confronted, or at least pondered, in everyday life. Medieval people weren’t more superstitious or credulous than modern ones. For people of the past, however, monster stories weren’t just about being scary. They were moralizing tales that held warnings and lessons for Christians hoping to achieve salvation.

In this way, perhaps our own modern world is not so different. In Venantius’ story, the dragon haunts a tomb as a (super)natural
punishment for the deceased’s sins, offering a warning that those sins will be known. Psellos’ dragon appears in a prison, a supernatural manifestation of danger posed to Marina by the government official. And George’s dragon patrols the borderlands of the civilized world, representing the dangers of perceived outsiders. We in the 21st century
have different anxieties, different boundaries drawn around us—but we still have monsters.

Why Dragons Dominated the Landscape of Medieval Monsters
Paolo Uccello, Saint George and the Dragon, circa 1470 Public domain via Wikimedia Commons

Look again at our own scary tales, and you’ll find our deepest fears. Freddy Krueger lurks in our neighborhood, ready to murder our kids.
Skynet, from the Terminator movies, is just one of many reflections of
our fear of machines taking over. The Demogorgon, a monster from the
Netflix series “Stranger Things,” emerges from secret government experiments. As “Monster Theory” scholar Jeffrey Jerome Cohen once asked, “Do monsters really exist? Surely they must, for if they did not, how could we?”

Monsters, both medieval and modern, are indeed a part of our everyday
lives. We wonder along with Venantius if someone can be forgiven for the harm they’ve done to others in their life, how we can reckon with the consequences of those actions after the sinners have died. Like Psellos,
we can understand the torment and inner strength of a young woman
suffering abuse at the hands of a powerful man. That common humanity,
the one that creates monsters to terrify, as well as the one that has to face those monsters, is what fascinate us as historians, that led us to
tell similar stories (admittedly with only one dragon) in our
forthcoming book. The monsters we see in our imagination, as well as the monsters that will be knocking on our doors this Halloween, are
ultimately versions of ourselves.

Preview thumbnail for 'The Bright Ages: A New History of Medieval Europe
The Bright Ages: A New History of Medieval Europe
A lively and magisterial popular history that refutes common
misperceptions of the European Middle Ages, showing the beauty and
communion that flourished alongside the dark brutality—a brilliant reflection of humanity itself.

BUY
David M. Perry | | READ MORE

David M. Perry is a freelance journalist covering politics, history, education, and disability rights. He was previously a professor of
medieval history at Dominican University from 2006-2017.

Matthew Gabriele | | READ MORE

Matthew Gabriele is a professor of medieval studies and chair of the Department of Religion & Culture at Virginia Tech. His latest book, co-authored with David M. Perry, is The Bright Ages: A New History of Medieval Europe (Harper, December 2021). See more at profgabriele.com

(Recent Youtube upload):

DRAGONS: History, Mythology, Meaning

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)