XPost: alt.economics, soc.history.what-if

Tom Martin
Updated September 16
What is the thing that really stops a poor country from becoming a rich country?

The people and the leadership they create.

Not a matter of one side being wealthy and the other not, but rather a
clear disparity on the same damn small island. Both were conquered and exploited by Europeans, Haitians by the French who they booted and the Dominican Republic ousted the Spanish.

This occurred long, long ago. The people have controlled their own fate
for decades and this is how they ran things.

Same island, different ecology

Same Island and climate, different statistics.
Haiti Dominican Republic
Infant mortality 48.2 18.1
Life Expectancy 63.8 78.1
GDP 18.8 142
Unemployment 40% 13.8%
GDP per person under $1,000 $6,000


Every single indicator shows the Dominican Republic to have a far
superior system.

Tragically, the Haitians, saddled with shit governments, have suffered
greatly and they’ve resorted at times to mud cookies.

For the individual, there can only be so much he or she can do, and then
he or she does the best he or she can or else languishes.

In a discussion on Haiti, when the food shortages were mentioned, while
looking at some photos I asked someone why they didn’t simply grow
gardens so they’d have more food.

Imagine a place, there is hunger, someone grows a garden, and, inspired,
others see that’s a good idea and they all invest time and effort in
doing the same, and everyone moves up.

Imagine a place, there is hunger, someone grows a garden, and inspired,
SOME others see that’s a good idea, and they also invest time and effort
in doing the same, some move up.

Imagine a place, there is hunger, someone grows a garden, and others
watch, and they don’t extend the same time and effort, they simply steal
from that person’s garden. The person tries again.

Imagine a place, there is hunger, someone tries to grow a garden, others
watch and they extend no effort, they simply steal from that person’s
garden. When he tries, they do it again.

Imagine a place, there is hunger, no one tries to grow a garden. They’ve
seen that when someone tries, extending time and effort, others simply
steal everything, even when it’s before harvest. So they’ve given up trying.

Imagine a place, there is hunger, and no one even thinks of growing a
garden.

Where a culture is among these places, these mindsets can be so onerous
that it’s insurmountable and it will remain that way for generations,
and only deteriorate if it goes below the first two levels.

---------------

Around three or four decade ago, after doing an assessment of Brazil’s resources and potential, I believe by the United Nations, it was assumed
that Brazil, given it’s autonomy and potential development would be a superpower with a few decades. Yes, a Superpower.

Well, left in Brazilian hands, they didn’t do it.

This means like many of the countries in the world, they squandered
their resources and potential.
------------------

Some self described experts in everything say that anecdotes are a
terrible way of viewing things, but that’s what we do, view things
through relatable incidents.

I remember stories and explanations regarding Haiti. One made
international news.

Someone mentioned that on that Island growing things is relatively easy,
for the small scale, like a small yard and garden as is custom in the
entire region. Many people in the Carib and Latin America have rather productive small gardens that produce peppers, plantains, and such,
enough to help supplement if not sustain a family. That would help and
one wonders why that’s not done heavily in Haiti a country that is often suffering from wide spread hunger. The water is available at that level.
What is surmised was the problem with theft, theft from others who covet
the produce others worked for. An example of how desperate it could be
came out many years ago. A woman was trying to keep her family fed. Some
foods require cooling and she’d put her food in the window and it’d be stolen. One day, she set up a knife or blade of some type like a
guillotine trap. It worked horrifically well, but she was shocked that
it was a neighbor’s daughter who was now missing a hand. She’d thought
the person a friend. Whether this was an impish act at that time or a competitive, life sapping theft was not explained, but the fact the
woman was so angry and distraught over food being stolen indicates the
level of problem. This wasn’t some pie being stolen from the window in a country with abundant resources where it was more a pain of having one’s effort taken but it could be easily replaced or a family missing desert
after a good healthy meal. This level of food theft affects marginal
survival. This would likely be happening in a garden, produce taken
green by others who didn’t put in the work. Those who try would give up because it’d be stolen regularly.

Horribly sad. Just a few bad people can ruin it for others and take out
a viable means of producing more food.

For those saying ‘lack of resources’ (which were squandered) and lack of space (although they have more than some others) I counter Hong Kong and
Macau. No space, no resources but maritime opportunities and decent
location. Also, compare Puerto Rico and Haiti.

58.4K viewsView 1,625 upvotesView shares


Scott Helms
February 8
While the governments in Haiti have definitely had an impact, you’re
ignoring the very real difference in amounts of arable land and the
levels of fertility of the land on both sides.

Haiti lacks the fertile valleys on the other side of the island and is
_much_ drier because the mountains cut off the rain bearing trade winds
from the east.

Haiti vs. Dominican Republic

Tom Martin
February 8
Odd, the French were able to farm there. Horrifically, the climate and conditions were so bad there that they used slavery specifically because
it was such a great place to grow plants there.

Scott Helms
I’m not sure what you’re basing that on, but at the end of the day the
area that Haiti covers has (and had) far less arable land than the other
side of the island. That has changed some as land management practices
have been atrocious in Haiti but even if they hadn’t they’d have far
less good farm land than the Dominican Republic.

Profile photo for Tom Martin
Tom Martin
February 8
Excuses, they choose their government and their laws and practices.

Scott Helms
February 8
Wait, what? Their government choices have very little to do with arable
land amounts. That’s not zero only because they have done a terrible job
with land management. Having said that, there’s no indication that they
would be on par with (much less better off than) than the Dominican
Republic if they’d done a terrific job managing the arable land. When you’re the most mountainous nation in your region (Haiti - The World Factbook) development is very hard to pull off.

Put it this way, a well governed Haiti wouldn’t likely be substantially different than what we see today given their lack of natural resources, challenging terrain, and frequent hurricanes and earthquakes.

righteousness? Even if it were all because of their choices, which
clearly isn’t true do you think it’s morale for the sins of the father
are to be laid upon the children? Honestly, my son hasn’t done anything
to “deserve” to be an American or born into a well off household. Is he somehow responsible for his good fortune?

Profile photo for Jesse Balaclava
Jesse Balaclava
February 9
Japan is in a typhoon and earthquake zone, most of Taiwan and China is mountainous and/or desert, and Israel virtually had no arable land when
it began as a political entity, yet all these countries are relatively prosperous, so what gives? I think I have the answer, but it wouldn’t be politically correct. 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

Scott Helms
February 9
Well now, that’s decent movement of the goal posts. We weren’t comparing Haiti to the world at the start but rather the nation that shares the
other part of the island.

However, I’d say that all of those nations had (and often continue to
have) substantial advantages over Haiti (and the Dominican Republic too
for that matter) that have nothing to with governance.

What gives is what leads to a nation’s success is a complicated answer. Government can be part of an answer, but I don’t know of any nation
where it’s the main answer. It has nothing to do with political
correctness and has to do with understanding that geography and climate
play large roles in a nation’s development. For example, the US would
never have become a world power house as rapidly as it did if it weren’t
for the Mississippi River.

Larry Jackson
February 10
Israel, Singapore's climate and geography are similar to those of their respective neighbors yet their quality of life is significantly higher.
It suggests governance can have a high impact. Edit: Book “ Why Nations Fail”( free download) argues similarly.

Shawn Ramirez
February 11
This is funny. When I saw this comparison, i laughed. Does this guy not understand the climate zones of islands? There is the dry side and the
wet side of the island. They are very different. This guy clearly lacks
that understanding.

While some parts of this comparison might be valid, and might be worth
looking at, such as the difference in aids policy, or infant mortality practices, this is a very obtuse look at comparing these two nations.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thursday, September 30, 2021 at 5:51:21 PM UTC+1, a425couple wrote:

Tom Martin
Updated September 16
What is the thing that really stops a poor country from becoming a rich country?

The people and the leadership they create.

Not a matter of one side being wealthy and the other not, but rather a
clear disparity on the same damn small island. Both were conquered and exploited by Europeans, Haitians by the French who they booted and the Dominican Republic ousted the Spanish.

This occurred long, long ago. The people have controlled their own fate
for decades and this is how they ran things.

Same island, different ecology

Same Island and climate, different statistics.
Haiti Dominican Republic
Infant mortality 48.2 18.1
Life Expectancy 63.8 78.1
GDP 18.8 142
Unemployment 40% 13.8%
GDP per person under $1,000 $6,000

Every single indicator shows the Dominican Republic to have a far
superior system.

Tragically, the Haitians, saddled with shit governments, have suffered greatly and they’ve resorted at times to mud cookies.

For the individual, there can only be so much he or she can do, and then
he or she does the best he or she can or else languishes.

In a discussion on Haiti, when the food shortages were mentioned, while looking at some photos I asked someone why they didn’t simply grow
gardens so they’d have more food.

Imagine a place, there is hunger, someone grows a garden, and, inspired, others see that’s a good idea and they all invest time and effort in
doing the same, and everyone moves up.

Imagine a place, there is hunger, someone grows a garden, and inspired,
SOME others see that’s a good idea, and they also invest time and effort in doing the same, some move up.

Imagine a place, there is hunger, someone grows a garden, and others
watch, and they don’t extend the same time and effort, they simply steal from that person’s garden. The person tries again.

Imagine a place, there is hunger, someone tries to grow a garden, others watch and they extend no effort, they simply steal from that person’s garden. When he tries, they do it again.

Imagine a place, there is hunger, no one tries to grow a garden. They’ve seen that when someone tries, extending time and effort, others simply
steal everything, even when it’s before harvest. So they’ve given up trying.

Imagine a place, there is hunger, and no one even thinks of growing a garden.

Where a culture is among these places, these mindsets can be so onerous
that it’s insurmountable and it will remain that way for generations,
and only deteriorate if it goes below the first two levels.

---------------

Around three or four decade ago, after doing an assessment of Brazil’s resources and potential, I believe by the United Nations, it was assumed that Brazil, given it’s autonomy and potential development would be a superpower with a few decades. Yes, a Superpower.

Well, left in Brazilian hands, they didn’t do it.

This means like many of the countries in the world, they squandered
their resources and potential.
------------------

Some self described experts in everything say that anecdotes are a
terrible way of viewing things, but that’s what we do, view things
through relatable incidents.

I remember stories and explanations regarding Haiti. One made
international news.

Someone mentioned that on that Island growing things is relatively easy,
for the small scale, like a small yard and garden as is custom in the
entire region. Many people in the Carib and Latin America have rather productive small gardens that produce peppers, plantains, and such,
enough to help supplement if not sustain a family. That would help and
one wonders why that’s not done heavily in Haiti a country that is often suffering from wide spread hunger. The water is available at that level. What is surmised was the problem with theft, theft from others who covet
the produce others worked for. An example of how desperate it could be
came out many years ago. A woman was trying to keep her family fed. Some foods require cooling and she’d put her food in the window and it’d be stolen. One day, she set up a knife or blade of some type like a
guillotine trap. It worked horrifically well, but she was shocked that
it was a neighbor’s daughter who was now missing a hand. She’d thought the person a friend. Whether this was an impish act at that time or a competitive, life sapping theft was not explained, but the fact the
woman was so angry and distraught over food being stolen indicates the
level of problem. This wasn’t some pie being stolen from the window in a country with abundant resources where it was more a pain of having one’s effort taken but it could be easily replaced or a family missing desert after a good healthy meal. This level of food theft affects marginal survival. This would likely be happening in a garden, produce taken
green by others who didn’t put in the work. Those who try would give up because it’d be stolen regularly.

Horribly sad. Just a few bad people can ruin it for others and take out
a viable means of producing more food.

For those saying ‘lack of resources’ (which were squandered) and lack of space (although they have more than some others) I counter Hong Kong and Macau. No space, no resources but maritime opportunities and decent location. Also, compare Puerto Rico and Haiti.

58.4K viewsView 1,625 upvotesView shares

Scott Helms
February 8
While the governments in Haiti have definitely had an impact, you’re ignoring the very real difference in amounts of arable land and the
levels of fertility of the land on both sides.

Haiti lacks the fertile valleys on the other side of the island and is _much_ drier because the mountains cut off the rain bearing trade winds
from the east.

Haiti vs. Dominican Republic

Tom Martin
February 8
Odd, the French were able to farm there. Horrifically, the climate and conditions were so bad there that they used slavery specifically because
it was such a great place to grow plants there.

Scott Helms
I’m not sure what you’re basing that on, but at the end of the day the area that Haiti covers has (and had) far less arable land than the other side of the island. That has changed some as land management practices
have been atrocious in Haiti but even if they hadn’t they’d have far less good farm land than the Dominican Republic.

Profile photo for Tom Martin
Tom Martin
February 8
Excuses, they choose their government and their laws and practices.

Scott Helms
February 8
Wait, what? Their government choices have very little to do with arable
land amounts. That’s not zero only because they have done a terrible job with land management. Having said that, there’s no indication that they would be on par with (much less better off than) than the Dominican
Republic if they’d done a terrific job managing the arable land. When you’re the most mountainous nation in your region (Haiti - The World Factbook) development is very hard to pull off.

Put it this way, a well governed Haiti wouldn’t likely be substantially different than what we see today given their lack of natural resources, challenging terrain, and frequent hurricanes and earthquakes.

righteousness? Even if it were all because of their choices, which
clearly isn’t true do you think it’s morale for the sins of the father are to be laid upon the children? Honestly, my son hasn’t done anything
to “deserve” to be an American or born into a well off household. Is he somehow responsible for his good fortune?

Profile photo for Jesse Balaclava
Jesse Balaclava
February 9
Japan is in a typhoon and earthquake zone, most of Taiwan and China is mountainous and/or desert, and Israel virtually had no arable land when
it began as a political entity, yet all these countries are relatively prosperous, so what gives? I think I have the answer, but it wouldn’t be politically correct. 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

Scott Helms
February 9
Well now, that’s decent movement of the goal posts. We weren’t comparing Haiti to the world at the start but rather the nation that shares the
other part of the island.

However, I’d say that all of those nations had (and often continue to have) substantial advantages over Haiti (and the Dominican Republic too
for that matter) that have nothing to with governance.

What gives is what leads to a nation’s success is a complicated answer. Government can be part of an answer, but I don’t know of any nation
where it’s the main answer. It has nothing to do with political correctness and has to do with understanding that geography and climate
play large roles in a nation’s development. For example, the US would never have become a world power house as rapidly as it did if it weren’t for the Mississippi River.

Larry Jackson
February 10
Israel, Singapore's climate and geography are similar to those of their respective neighbors yet their quality of life is significantly higher.
It suggests governance can have a high impact. Edit: Book “ Why Nations Fail”( free download) argues similarly.

Shawn Ramirez
February 11
This is funny. When I saw this comparison, i laughed. Does this guy not understand the climate zones of islands? There is the dry side and the
wet side of the island. They are very different. This guy clearly lacks
that understanding.

While some parts of this comparison might be valid, and might be worth looking at, such as the difference in aids policy, or infant mortality practices, this is a very obtuse look at comparing these two nations.

Which one owns the second largest gold mine in the world? Simples!

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)