• History

    From Tiglath@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jul 26 17:13:00 2021
    A bit of history, right? Can't hurt.

    I know this guy who's written several history books; we are always sparring about some historical point or other. It's really interesting because his knowledge of battles is encyclopedic and he's a great writer. Still, I find sometimes things to
    criticize or disagree on, which is lucky because the total agreement we have on most things would make a very short and boring thread.

    Good historians criticize other good historians, many times the very sources of the history we are lucky to have.

    I have two bones to pick with my friend. He disbelieves the numbers Herodotus gives for Xerxes army in 480 BC, and a couple of his ideas on the Second Punic War are way off. I'll cover both bones to pick, so this is a long post....

    Herodotus gives the number of 2 million+ for Xerxes' army, including attendants.

    They marched from Sardis, in the middle of Turkey, to Thermopylae, in the middle of Greece. About 500 miles, starting in the spring.

    I plan to retrace Xerxes march in person, perhaps as soon as next spring, pandemic permitting. We'll see.

    This guy writes articles for history magazines as well like this amazing magazine:

    https://www.karwansaraypublishers.com/ancient-warfare/aw-shop/subscriptions.html

    The illustrations are very good, and remind me of the comics I had when I was five years old.

    Well, my friend believes General F. Maurice's view on the Size of Xerxes Army. I believe Herodotus.

    The Achaemenid Empire had manpower reserves similar to Nazi Germany, who deployed more troops farther. In addition most of the march was within a short distance to the coast where the Persian navy could provision the army along the way, as the sources
    attest.

    The sources for this are Herodotus, the play "The Persians" by
    Aeschylus, who fought in the Battle of Salamis, and a monument erected shortly after the Battle of Thermopylae, which says not 2 million, but 3 million.

    Critics don't believe the monument either. You know, it's always people 2500 after a war who know better, right?

    I wrote a Python program to compute the food and water Xerxes soldiers, attendants, horses, camels, and pack animals needed on a daily basis along the way. Statistics derived from Herodotus data give plausible numbers. I use the man and beast rations
    given in "Alexander the Great and the Logistics of the Macedonian Army" by Donald W. Engels

    I am on the lookout for the 'impossible statistic.' The one that would finally show the impossibility of an army of such size. But it hasn't arisen.

    F. Maurice, was a British general who fought in India, South Africa, and WWI, and turned academic and correspondent. While in Turkey, he surveyed part of the geography of Xerxes march copy of Herodotus in hand, as I intend to do. And he concludes that at
    most the numbers were one-tenth those of Herodotus. The main reason was the water supply and certain features of the terrain.

    I've studied his article and he bases it on incorrect assumptions. To start with he went there in October, while Xerxes set out in early spring with the idea to arrive in Greece when the harvest was ripe in July. To account for this he incorrectly states
    that the discharge of rivers doesn't change from May to November in that region, which is patently false. Victor Davis Hanson (1999) explains clearly how water transport in Greece was limited to the sea because rivers were not navigable in the summer.
    Maurice, who died in 1951, did not have the benefit of climate science, as we do. Fortunately, we have climate history data and both temperature and precipitation were well-above normal in that period. Rainfall for 480 was near at the peak for the 500 BC
    to 450 BC period. So it is probable that Maurice assumptions about the 'dry season' are also incorrect. Rainfall and water supply should have been significantly above average at the time of Xerxes' march, though it would also have been hotter than hell.

    Maurice's objections rest also on the fact that certain parts of the itinerary could not accommodate such large numbers. So what?

    If he finds that the march was feasible for 200K but not for 2M, that's not much of a problem, because, you can do 200K ten times and you get to a Herodotus numbers. Not all people needed be in the same vicinity.
    There were obviously fractions of the host at several locations along the way, were the water was, were the food depots were, waiting for the group ahead to move on for them to go there. Rivers kept flowing.

    I have surveyed the water supply of the region from Sardis to Thermopylae, crossing the Hellespont, using Barrington Atlas of the Greek and Roman World, and noted the discharge of rivers and the size of lakes along the way, and water would not have been
    a problem for neither man or beast on that march, for Herodotus numbers.

    Modern historians do the same with Livy and Polybius, who according to them are constantly falling pray to their biases. Why is so hard to consider ancient writers like people who had a brain?

    Critics claim Herodotus confused a thousand with ten-thousand, in the narrative of how Xerxes counted his men during a stop in the march. Duh.

    AND...

    My historian friend now calls Varro's plan for Cannae (almost) brilliant.

    The word: BRILLIANT.

    Applied to Varro?

    Yep. Balls. I know. Right?

    Gaius Terentius Varro - the man who lost four (4) consular armies in one day. That is, eight legions, around 70K men.

    After which important allies of Rome defected to Hannibal.

    The sources are clear.

    Varro's plan reveals utter incompetence from the word go.

    My friend also thinks that all Fabius Maxiums achieved with his strategy of avoiding battle, the so-called Fabian Strategy, is to delay ultimate Roman victory - which came only after discarding Fabian strategy, supposedly, for a more aggressive policy.

    He wants to write an article for Ancient Warfare Magazine actually saying those things that belittle Fabius and elevate Varro.

    I want to see the comments to the article. Someone will have to kiss the donkey.

    I'll get into Varro and Fabius next.

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  • From SolomonW@21:1/5 to Tiglath on Tue Jul 27 10:36:24 2021
    On Mon, 26 Jul 2021 17:13:00 -0700 (PDT), Tiglath wrote:

    Herodotus gives the number of 2 million+ for Xerxes' army, including attendants.
    ...
    The Achaemenid Empire had manpower reserves similar to Nazi Germany,

    Wow

    The Achaemenid Empire had at its height about 35 million people, Nazi
    Germany in June 1941 had

    https://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_countries_by_population_in_1939
    Germany 86 million
    Italy 43 million
    Finland 3 million
    Romania 20 million

    Plus many supporters in almost all of Western and Eastern Europe to draw manpowwer.

    Plus drawing 2 million males from 35 million population would be
    impossible.

    who deployed more troops farther.

    Putting aside, railways, trucks and cargo planes,

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  • From Tiglath@21:1/5 to SolomonW on Mon Jul 26 18:26:32 2021
    On Monday, July 26, 2021 at 8:36:27 PM UTC-4, SolomonW wrote:
    On Mon, 26 Jul 2021 17:13:00 -0700 (PDT), Tiglath wrote:

    Herodotus gives the number of 2 million+ for Xerxes' army, including attendants.
    ...
    The Achaemenid Empire had manpower reserves similar to Nazi Germany,
    Wow

    The Achaemenid Empire had at its height about 35 million people, Nazi Germany in June 1941 had


    That's too low. They had at least 50 million, or 44% of the world's population, a Guinnes Record.

    Some sources quote up to 70M for the vast empire of more than 2M square miles.

    To that Xerxes added the populations of all countries in his way.

    Germany had 65M in 1933.

    This is not a thread about the Nazi or for the Nazi obsessive. If you don't have anything about Xerxes, Varro, or Fabius, go elsewhere, before I ask politely.


    https://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_countries_by_population_in_1939
    Germany 86 million
    Italy 43 million
    Finland 3 million
    Romania 20 million

    Plus many supporters in almost all of Western and Eastern Europe to draw manpowwer.

    Plus drawing 2 million males from 35 million population would be
    impossible.

    Prove it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_global_manpower_fit_for_military_service

    who deployed more troops farther.
    Putting aside, railways, trucks and cargo planes,

    Exactly. You are lost again. I am talking LOGISTICS, not speed or range.

    The logistics to supply and maintain trains, trucks, and aircraft, never mind tanks and other war machines in winter over thousands of miles, mostly on enemy territory are incredibly more difficult than sustaining men, horses, camels, and mules, over a
    relatively short march on home ground and in nice weather.

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  • From SolomonW@21:1/5 to Tiglath on Tue Jul 27 18:47:50 2021
    On Mon, 26 Jul 2021 18:26:32 -0700 (PDT), Tiglath wrote:

    On Monday, July 26, 2021 at 8:36:27 PM UTC-4, SolomonW wrote:
    On Mon, 26 Jul 2021 17:13:00 -0700 (PDT), Tiglath wrote:

    Herodotus gives the number of 2 million+ for Xerxes' army, including attendants.
    ...
    (b)
    The Achaemenid Empire had manpower reserves similar to Nazi Germany,
    Wow

    The Achaemenid Empire had at its height about 35 million people, Nazi
    Germany in June 1941 had


    That's too low. They had at least 50 million, or 44% of the world's population, a Guinnes Record.

    The editors in Wikipedia said less, but anyway, it's still less than Nazi Germany.


    https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Achaemenid_Empire



    Some sources quote up to 70M for the vast empire of more than 2M square miles.

    Yes, ancient population figures quoted varies greatly but this sounds like
    the very high end.


    To that Xerxes added the populations of all countries in his way.

    This is included in the 35 million above.



    Germany had 65M in 1933.

    Between 1933 and 1939, Germany expanded significantly due to the Third
    Reich's annexations and conquests which brought the Greater Reich to 86
    million in 1941. Plus, the army that attacked Russia was a multi-national
    army composing of many countries. See (a) below.



    This is not a thread about the Nazi or for the Nazi obsessive. If you don't have anything about Xerxes, Varro, or Fabius, go elsewhere, before I ask politely.

    Well, it is your comparison see (b) above.




    (a)

    https://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_countries_by_population_in_1939
    Germany 86 million
    Italy 43 million
    Finland 3 million
    Romania 20 million

    Plus many supporters in almost all of Western and Eastern Europe to draw
    manpowwer.

    Plus drawing 2 million males from 35 million population would be
    impossible.

    Prove it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_global_manpower_fit_for_military_service

    Such figures are for modern armies for some short time. For example, the
    USA had about 10 percent of the population in the military in 1945.
    However, few were combat troops on the front.

    A better example would be China under the Qin's total population post-unification. Its population was about 35 million, similar to the Achaemenid Empire, but China had a much better food production and
    distribution system. So Qin could for a short time field an army of about a million men internally, not on the border. This would drain its
    resources, so it would be unable to meet any other threats. The Achaemenid Empire needed troops everywhere.






    who deployed more troops farther.
    Putting aside, railways, trucks and cargo planes,

    Exactly. You are lost again. I am talking LOGISTICS, not speed or range.

    I was not talking speed or range but logistics. A 2 million army, as you
    claim, need a lot of food.

    Also consider 2 million soldiers in the days before hygiene and sanitation


    The logistics to supply and maintain trains, trucks, and aircraft, never mind tanks and other war machines in winter over thousands of miles, mostly on enemy territory are incredibly more difficult than sustaining men, horses, camels, and mules,

    There is much more than that; for example, food has to be brought from the entire empire, which is no trivial task as it's a vast empire.

    over a relatively short march on home ground

    Really

    Istanbul to Mount Cithaeron is about 900 km walking.

    Brest the start point for Barbarossa to Moscow is about 1050 km walking.

    and in nice weather.

    Bad weather started about at Moscow.

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  • From Tiglath@21:1/5 to SolomonW on Tue Jul 27 18:30:14 2021
    On Tuesday, July 27, 2021 at 4:47:53 AM UTC-4, SolomonW wrote:


    n almost all of Western and Eastern Europe to draw
    manpowwer.

    Plus drawing 2 million males from 35 million population would be
    impossible.

    Prove it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_global_manpower_fit_for_military_service
    Such figures are for modern armies for some short time.

    Bullshit.

    You have the usual lack of integrity when faced with contrary evidence. You suck, PIGVOMIT.

    The list I gave you shows how many people are of between ages 16 and 49 for a given population,

    It turns out that Portugal alone has more than 2 million males in that age range.

    PORTUGAL. A country with only 36K square miles and ten million people.

    Imagine how many people of military age there were in an empire with many times the population of Portugal.

    Believe it or not there were people in antiquity of age between 16 and 49.

    Men of military age for Xerxes to levy.

    I should stop here because if you cannot understand that you statement below is just another of your ignorant assertions, the rest will suck too:

    "[D]rawing 2 million males [of military age] from 35 million population would be impossible."

    - PIGVOMIT

    You are unable to observe, for instance, that in all those figures, in the average population, there is about one-fifth of males of military age.

    Besides, since you have not read Herodotus, you should not really participate in this, because I am not here to teach you history. I prefer people with INFORMED opinions.

    The actual combatants were 1.7M, the rest were attendants and camp followers, which need not be of military age and can be female and even children.




    I was not talking speed or range but logistics. A 2 million army, as you claim, need a lot of food.


    Again, you are ignorant of the fact that Xerxes spend FIVE years preparing the march and the food depots along the way. Grain keeps for a long time. The Persian fleet was also never far.


    Also consider 2 million soldiers in the days before hygiene and sanitation

    The sources say nothing about plague or disease in such a large army on the march. Nobody disputes it was a very large army. The dispute is about how large.

    I see you have nothing intelligent to say.

    Thank you, PIGVOMIT, but I rather have no one posting in my thread than this wet crap you write.

    Be well, off you go.

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  • From SolomonW@21:1/5 to Tiglath on Wed Jul 28 17:16:05 2021
    On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:30:14 -0700 (PDT), Tiglath wrote:

    Bullshit.

    You have the usual lack of integrity when faced with contrary evidence. You suck, PIGVOMIT.

    Yeah at this point, I will leave your nonsense.

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  • From Tiglath@21:1/5 to SolomonW on Thu Jul 29 09:09:07 2021
    On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 3:16:08 AM UTC-4, SolomonW wrote:
    On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:30:14 -0700 (PDT), Tiglath wrote:

    Bullshit.

    You have the usual lack of integrity when faced with contrary evidence. You suck, PIGVOMIT.
    Yeah

    I glad you agree that you suck. It's so obvious, isn't it?

    at this point, I will leave your nonsense.

    I appreciate it, PIGVOMIT. Thanks.

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  • From Eric Stevens@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jul 30 15:36:21 2021
    On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:30:14 -0700 (PDT), Tiglath <temp6@tiglath.net>
    wrote:

    On Tuesday, July 27, 2021 at 4:47:53 AM UTC-4, SolomonW wrote:


    n almost all of Western and Eastern Europe to draw
    manpowwer.

    Plus drawing 2 million males from 35 million population would be
    impossible.

    Prove it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_global_manpower_fit_for_military_service
    Such figures are for modern armies for some short time.

    Bullshit.

    You have the usual lack of integrity when faced with contrary evidence. You suck, PIGVOMIT.

    The list I gave you shows how many people are of between ages 16 and 49 for a given population,

    It turns out that Portugal alone has more than 2 million males in that age range.

    PORTUGAL. A country with only 36K square miles and ten million people.

    Imagine how many people of military age there were in an empire with many times the population of Portugal.

    Believe it or not there were people in antiquity of age between 16 and 49.

    Men of military age for Xerxes to levy.

    To take today's data as evidence of what could be done is foolish.

    For a start, life spans of then and now are very different.
    Consequently the age group from which armies might be drawn are very
    different. Archaeology suggests the life expectancy was about 40 years
    or less.

    Second, gathering all the troops from the wide areas necessary to form
    a massive army takes significant time and organisation. Whether or
    this could be done in historical times is questionable.

    Third, the logistics of feeding such an army is a horrendous task. Traditionally armies lived off the countryside. The problem with very
    large armies is that the leading edge strips the country bare and
    those who follow starve.

    Fourth, disease. Disease generally killed more soldiers than combat.
    Keeping an army in one place for long was usually a recipe for
    disaster. So too was marching a large army through the droppings of
    the vanguard.

    For all these reasons drawing together and maintaining an army of 2
    million males from a 35 million population would have been so
    difficult s to be improbable.



    I should stop here because if you cannot understand that you statement below is just another of your ignorant assertions, the rest will suck too:

    "[D]rawing 2 million males [of military age] from 35 million population would be impossible."

    - PIGVOMIT

    You are unable to observe, for instance, that in all those figures, in the average population, there is about one-fifth of males of military age.

    Besides, since you have not read Herodotus, you should not really participate in this, because I am not here to teach you history. I prefer people with INFORMED opinions.

    The actual combatants were 1.7M, the rest were attendants and camp followers, which need not be of military age and can be female and even children.




    I was not talking speed or range but logistics. A 2 million army, as you
    claim, need a lot of food.


    Again, you are ignorant of the fact that Xerxes spend FIVE years preparing the march and the food depots along the way. Grain keeps for a long time. The Persian fleet was also never far.


    Also consider 2 million soldiers in the days before hygiene and sanitation

    The sources say nothing about plague or disease in such a large army on the march. Nobody disputes it was a very large army. The dispute is about how large.

    I see you have nothing intelligent to say.

    Thank you, PIGVOMIT, but I rather have no one posting in my thread than this wet crap you write.

    Be well, off you go.
    --

    Regards,

    Eric Stevens

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  • From Tiglath@21:1/5 to Eric Stevens on Fri Jul 30 07:06:55 2021
    On Thursday, July 29, 2021 at 11:36:07 PM UTC-4, Eric Stevens wrote:
    Imagine how many people of military age there were in an empire with many times the population of Portugal.

    Believe it or not there were people in antiquity of age between 16 and 49.

    Men of military age for Xerxes to levy.
    To take today's data as evidence of what could be done is foolish.


    Hey, Geocentrist... How are you? How's the kill cell? Did you get the food packages I sent you?

    Well, well. I post some history and all I get is PIGVOMIT and the Geocentrist wet defecations...

    This place is gonzo, FUBAR.

    Anyway, the Geocentrist DIDN'T READ Herodotus either, but that's not stopping him from rushing to make a fool of himself.
    What's new?

    For a start, life spans of then and now are very different.
    Consequently the age group from which armies might be drawn are very different. Archaeology suggests the life expectancy was about 40 years
    or less.

    Stevens believes in antiquity there was nobody older than 40, it seems.

    The AVERAGE longevity of past times is brought low mainly due to infant mortality, around 30% sometimes.
    It means that for every infant that died another person lived to see 70. Yes lack of medical treatment also contributed but less.

    Since all people of military age HAD SURVIVED infancy, there is no reason to think that there were fewer as percentage of the population than today, since the population didn't include dead infants. Duh.


    Second, gathering all the troops from the wide areas necessary to form
    a massive army takes significant time and organisation. Whether or
    this could be done in historical times is questionable.


    Questionable only by morons like you who don't read history.

    He doesn't even read the posts he replies to, since I clearly said that Xerxes had FIVE years to gather the men and supplies for his expedition. Xerxes was the emperor, with absolute power to help his recruiting efforts.

    Third, the logistics of feeding such an army is a horrendous task. Traditionally armies lived off the countryside. The problem with very
    large armies is that the leading edge strips the country bare and
    those who follow starve.

    Xerxes army certainly depleted the food and water everywhere they went through. They also had food caches along the way, and a huge navy never far to supply their needs.


    Fourth, disease. Disease generally killed more soldiers than combat.
    Keeping an army in one place for long was usually a recipe for
    disaster. So too was marching a large army through the droppings of
    the vanguard.

    That's funny. He thinks that instead of doing the possible, they did the impossible.

    Who said the 2M people gathered in one place? Ignorant moron. Read some history.
    Who said that the van shat in the middle of the road to pave the way? Hilarious!

    For all these reasons drawing together and maintaining an army of 2
    million males from a 35 million population would have been so
    difficult s to be improbable.

    Sure. Great post Geocentrist.

    Don't get your hopes up, you failed to show any signs of rehabilitation and human worth, so I'm slamming you back into the kill cell.

    Enjoy!





    Regards,

    Eric Stevens

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  • From Tiglath@21:1/5 to Tiglath on Fri Jul 30 07:29:23 2021
    On Monday, July 26, 2021 at 8:13:01 PM UTC-4, Tiglath wrote:
    A bit of history, right? Can't hurt.
    I'll get into Varro and Fabius next.

    I won't, given the quality of the reading audience - Jesus fucking Christ.

    Varro who?

    Fabius who?

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  • From Eric Stevens@21:1/5 to Who on Sat Jul 31 16:02:39 2021
    rOn Fri, 30 Jul 2021 07:06:55 -0700 (PDT), Tiglath <temp6@tiglath.net>
    wrote:

    On Thursday, July 29, 2021 at 11:36:07 PM UTC-4, Eric Stevens wrote:
    Imagine how many people of military age there were in an empire with many times the population of Portugal.

    Believe it or not there were people in antiquity of age between 16 and 49. >> >
    Men of military age for Xerxes to levy.
    To take today's data as evidence of what could be done is foolish.

    ---snip---

    For a start, life spans of then and now are very different.
    Consequently the age group from which armies might be drawn are very
    different. Archaeology suggests the life expectancy was about 40 years
    or less.

    Stevens believes in antiquity there was nobody older than 40, it seems.

    Once again you expose your inumeracy. Life expectancy is NOT the same
    as the longest life survived.

    The AVERAGE longevity of past times is brought low mainly due to infant mortality, around 30% sometimes.
    It means that for every infant that died another person lived to see 70. Yes lack of medical treatment also contributed but less.

    Yes, but now the average life expectancy in Iran is 77 years and that
    means the current age spectrum is very different from that at the time
    of Xerxes.

    Since all people of military age HAD SURVIVED infancy, there is no reason to think that there were fewer as percentage of the population than today, since the population didn't include dead infants. Duh.

    You mean, you hadn't thought there might be a difference.


    Second, gathering all the troops from the wide areas necessary to form
    a massive army takes significant time and organisation. Whether or
    this could be done in historical times is questionable.


    Questionable only by morons like you who don't read history.

    Jumping to conclusions again are you. No actual argument. Only
    insults.

    He doesn't even read the posts he replies to, since I clearly said that Xerxes had FIVE years to gather the men and supplies for his expedition. Xerxes was the emperor, with absolute power to help his recruiting efforts.

    Yes, and the planning for the Normandy landing started immediately
    after the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour. With all the advantages of
    moderen technology it took 3 years to turn the plans into reality.

    Third, the logistics of feeding such an army is a horrendous task.
    Traditionally armies lived off the countryside. The problem with very
    large armies is that the leading edge strips the country bare and
    those who follow starve.

    Xerxes army certainly depleted the food and water everywhere they went through. They also had food caches along the way, and a huge navy never far to supply their needs.


    Fourth, disease. Disease generally killed more soldiers than combat.
    Keeping an army in one place for long was usually a recipe for
    disaster. So too was marching a large army through the droppings of
    the vanguard.

    That's funny. He thinks that instead of doing the possible, they did the impossible.

    Who said the 2M people gathered in one place? Ignorant moron. Read some history.
    Who said that the van shat in the middle of the road to pave the way? Hilarious!

    Who said I though the army gathered in one place?

    For all these reasons drawing together and maintaining an army of 2
    million males from a 35 million population would have been so
    difficult s to be improbable.

    Sure. Great post Geocentrist.

    Don't get your hopes up, you failed to show any signs of rehabilitation and human worth, so I'm slamming you back into the kill cell.

    Enjoy!





    Regards,

    Eric Stevens
    --

    Regards,

    Eric Stevens

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  • From Tiglath@21:1/5 to Eric Stevens on Sat Jul 31 07:41:25 2021
    On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 12:02:23 AM UTC-4, Eric Stevens wrote:
    Xerxes army certainly depleted the food and water everywhere they went through. They also had food caches along the way, and a huge navy never far to supply their needs.


    Fourth, disease. Disease generally killed more soldiers than combat.
    Keeping an army in one place for long was usually a recipe for
    disaster. So too was marching a large army through the droppings of
    the vanguard.

    That's funny. He thinks that instead of doing the possible, they did the impossible.

    Who said the 2M people gathered in one place? Ignorant moron. Read some history.
    Who said that the van shat in the middle of the road to pave the way? Hilarious!


    YOU. See above. "Keeping an army in one place for long..." As if it applied here. Buffoon.

    Stevens not only gorges on bats, he is as blind as a bat.

    Drink the sour milk, pussy.

    Gentle Readers (???) see one more time why you are a loon and deserve every insult you get here, times over.

    SLAM!... LOCK!

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  • From Tiglath@21:1/5 to All on Sun Aug 1 12:45:29 2021
    Climate denying has become a twin of Covid-denying.

    My favorite Aegean town, and Birthplace of the Father of History, Bodrum, Turkey, formerly Halicarnassus, is an amazing town with a great medieval castle built from 1402, by the Knights of St John. Seaside restaurants have balconies with a view of the
    castle illuminated at night in the middle of the bay. I've spent months there, shooting off to all sort of places in Turkey's magnificent archeological sites. Now...

    Bodrum is burning. Tourist had to evacuate via the sea. More of the becoming usual very bad, unusual fires and floods that worsen each year.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/31/tourists-rescued-mediterranean-beach-turkey-wildfires-heatwave

    Climate deniers will soon be hated as much as the Unvaccinated, for their opposition to the scientific facts that for decades warned us of this.

    See Lagos, Nigeria. "Lagos," means 'lakes' in Spanish and other languages. The name has become most appropriate for Africa's largest city.

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/01/africa/lagos-sinking-floods-climate-change-intl-cmd/index.html

    It's no excuse that climate change is a natural thing and happened many times before, you bet it did: from nebula to fireball to hell on earth to this, change all the way.

    But it WAS NOT MAN-MADE.

    Regardless, the result of abrupt climate change is extinction galore. The shame this time is that, same as Covid, it is preventable.

    A Bodrum seaside, open-air, night club I'd hate to see disappear. HALIKARNAS.

    It holds up to 5000 night revelers out to paint the town red. Couldn't say how many Ionian Greeks and veterans of Xerxes army, but they all dance like demons.

    http://www.tt-group.net/en/world-destinations/halikarnas-the-biggest-night-disco-club-in-turkey/

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  • From Eric Stevens@21:1/5 to All on Wed Aug 4 13:03:38 2021
    On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 07:41:25 -0700 (PDT), Tiglath <temp6@tiglath.net>
    wrote:

    On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 12:02:23 AM UTC-4, Eric Stevens wrote:
    Xerxes army certainly depleted the food and water everywhere they went through. They also had food caches along the way, and a huge navy never far to supply their needs.


    Fourth, disease. Disease generally killed more soldiers than combat.
    Keeping an army in one place for long was usually a recipe for
    disaster. So too was marching a large army through the droppings of
    the vanguard.

    That's funny. He thinks that instead of doing the possible, they did the impossible.

    Who said the 2M people gathered in one place? Ignorant moron. Read some history.
    Who said that the van shat in the middle of the road to pave the way? Hilarious!


    YOU. See above. "Keeping an army in one place for long..." As if it applied here. Buffoon.

    Stevens not only gorges on bats, he is as blind as a bat.

    Drink the sour milk, pussy.

    Gentle Readers (???) see one more time why you are a loon and deserve every insult you get here, times over.

    SLAM!... LOCK!

    Once again: no actual argument. Onlyninsults.
    --

    Regards,

    Eric Stevens

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