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  • Does Churchill remain revered in the UK, or do modern people frown over

    From a425couple@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jan 8 08:14:25 2022
    XPost: alt.war.world-war-two

    Her Majesty's Realms ·
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    Answered by
    Tom Curran
    Mon

    Does Churchill remain revered in the UK, or do modern people frown over
    his racism and avoid praising him?
    I know this is going to hurt you. Shock you. Completely stun you. But,
    trust me, it’s for your own good.

    You have been taught, for years, about racism, the ultimate evil. The
    thing that has caused all the world’s woes. The sin that can never be forgiven.

    But what if I told you there was something even worse?

    Really.

    You see, in 1939 England was faced with the ultimate challenge - the
    loss of its very existence. An enemy was abroad. A powerful, evil enemy
    that would stop at nothing to overrun and annihilate the nation and its society. An enemy that had already done horrific, inhuman things to
    others it had conquered. And there was only one person powerful enough
    to stop the threat, to defeat the tyrant enemy. Only one person - a
    racist. And even worse, an old, white, cis male.

    The conflict was almost too much. Which was worse? To be overrun and
    wiped out by an enemy of unspeakable ferociousness and cruelty? Or to be
    saved by such a person?

    Well, the people chose. They decided that survival mattered more than
    holding the correct beliefs. They decided that, even though many would
    be offended, it was better to be offended and alive, than to die happily knowing that one’s death was pure, innocent of political and social error.

    Incredible, isn’t it? Today, people, including your teachers, will tell
    you that the English, in 1939, chose wrongly. That Churchill, that
    racist male, should never have been allowed near the levers of power.
    But I have a secret for you. And please, don’t tell your teachers. They
    will be shocked. And will probably punish you.

    Had your teachers had their way in 1939, you probably wouldn’t be here.
    The world would be dominated by Nazis and other autocratic powers.
    Democracy would have been destroyed. And, no, life wouldn’t be ideal - because in that world, being Black, or gay, or female, or disabled, all
    meant death.

    That’s right. A white, cis, racist male led the fight against all that.
    And your teachers would have you believe that he was the problem.

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  • From Blueshirt@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jan 8 17:13:38 2022
    XPost: alt.war.world-war-two

    On 08/01/2022 16:14, a425couple wrote:

    Does Churchill remain revered in the UK, or do modern people frown over
    his racism and avoid praising him?

    Churchill was an alcoholic warmonger who sacrificed the British Empire
    for his own selfish aims during WWII. (A war the British couldn't win
    without help from the USA.) *If* Winston Churchill is still revered in
    the UK it's only because history is written by the victors.

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  • From a425couple@21:1/5 to Blueshirt on Tue Jan 11 07:55:02 2022
    XPost: alt.war.world-war-two

    On 1/8/2022 9:13 AM, Blueshirt wrote:
    On 08/01/2022 16:14, a425couple wrote:

    Does Churchill remain revered in the UK, or do modern people frown
    over his racism and avoid praising him?

    Churchill was an alcoholic warmonger

    Perhaps.

    He certainly repeatedly warned about Germany
    rearming, and becoming belligerent.
    Turns out, Churchill was right.

    who sacrificed the British Empire
    for his own selfish aims during WWII.

    I can not think of any UK leader who
    would have done an overall better job.

    Who would you suggest?

    (A war the British couldn't win
    without help from the USA.) *If* Winston Churchill
    is still revered in
    the UK it's only because history is written by the victors.


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  • From Blueshirt@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jan 11 22:04:03 2022
    XPost: alt.war.world-war-two

    On 11/01/2022 15:55, a425couple wrote:
    On 1/8/2022 9:13 AM, Blueshirt wrote:
    On 08/01/2022 16:14, a425couple wrote:

    Does Churchill remain revered in the UK, or do modern people frown
    over his racism and avoid praising him?

    Churchill was an alcoholic warmonger

    Perhaps.

    He certainly repeatedly warned about Germany
    rearming, and becoming belligerent.
    Turns out, Churchill was right.

    Belligerent, but not necessarily towards the British Empire as such. AH
    was always looking east ("living space") after reclaiming 'German' lands
    lost through Versailles. By most reliable accounts AH would have been
    quite happy to have peace with Britain... once he got the bits of
    Central Europe that he wanted!

    who sacrificed the British Empire for his own selfish aims during WWII.

    I can not think of any UK leader who
    would have done an overall better job.

    Who would you suggest?

    It's quite possible that a leader that was happy to look for peace
    before war might have done a better job, we'll never know. Churchill was
    quite happy to pursue a war that the UK couldn't actually afford, which ultimately bankrupted Britain because of all the borrowing she had to do
    to pay for it.

    The British went to war in essence to defend the balance of power in
    Europe and safeguard Britain's position in the world, but ultimately
    ended up doing the opposite!

    So no, looking at the bigger picture I don't think Winston Churchill is
    as great a leader as some people have made him out to be.

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  • From a425couple@21:1/5 to Blueshirt on Sun Jan 16 08:49:13 2022
    XPost: alt.war.world-war-two

    On 1/11/2022 2:04 PM, Blueshirt wrote:
    On 11/01/2022 15:55, a425couple wrote:
    On 1/8/2022 9:13 AM, Blueshirt wrote:
    On 08/01/2022 16:14, a425couple wrote:

    Does Churchill remain revered in the UK, or do modern people frown
    over his racism and avoid praising him?

    Churchill was an alcoholic warmonger

    Perhaps.

    He certainly repeatedly warned about Germany
    rearming, and becoming belligerent.
    Turns out, Churchill was right.

    Belligerent, but not necessarily towards the British Empire as such. AH
    was always looking east ("living space") after reclaiming 'German' lands
    lost through Versailles. By most reliable accounts AH would have been
    quite happy to have peace with Britain... once he got the bits of
    Central Europe that he wanted!

    who sacrificed the British Empire for his own selfish aims during WWII.

    I can not think of any UK leader who
    would have done an overall better job.

    Who would you suggest?

    It's quite possible that a leader that was happy to look for peace
    before war might have done a better job, we'll never know. Churchill was quite happy to pursue a war that the UK couldn't actually afford, which ultimately bankrupted Britain because of all the borrowing she had to do
    to pay for it.

    The British went to war in essence to defend the balance of power in
    Europe and safeguard Britain's position in the world, but ultimately
    ended up doing the opposite!

    So no, looking at the bigger picture I don't think Winston Churchill is
    as great a leader as some people have made him out to be.


    Well, the UK, and much of the civilized world was at
    war with Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy well before
    Churchill was made Prime Minister.

    I do not think there are many people who think that
    the world would be better off if Hitler was just
    left alone to finish off USSR and the Jews.

    I'm reminded of the classic warning, "Your Millage
    May Vary". Good Luck.

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  • From Blueshirt@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jan 17 07:47:16 2022
    XPost: alt.war.world-war-two

    On 16/01/2022 16:49, a425couple wrote:
    On 1/11/2022 2:04 PM, Blueshirt wrote:
    On 11/01/2022 15:55, a425couple wrote:
    On 1/8/2022 9:13 AM, Blueshirt wrote:

    It's quite possible that a leader that was happy to look for peace
    before war might have done a better job, we'll never know. Churchill
    was quite happy to pursue a war that the UK couldn't actually afford,
    which ultimately bankrupted Britain because of all the borrowing she
    had to do to pay for it.

    The British went to war in essence to defend the balance of power in
    Europe and safeguard Britain's position in the world, but ultimately
    ended up doing the opposite!

    So no, looking at the bigger picture I don't think Winston Churchill
    is as great a leader as some people have made him out to be.


    Well, the UK, and much of the civilized world was at
    war with Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy well before
    Churchill was made Prime Minister.

    Pre-1939 Poland must have been very important to them... it's a pity
    they seemed to forget that post-1945! Maybe the war was really about
    something else and Poland was just an excuse?

    I do not think there are many people who think that
    the world would be better off if Hitler was just
    left alone to finish off USSR and the Jews.

    Maybe central Europe after a war where the Soviets had been beaten - and
    with no Iron Curtain and cold war - might have been a better place in
    the long run? After all, WWII wasn't much of a victory for the freedom
    of people in Eastern Europe was it?

    I'm reminded of the classic warning, "Your Millage
    May Vary".

    It does!

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