XPost: alt.war.vietnam

Loyd M Vauthier
Former Sgt (1969–1970)Nov 13

Near the end of the Vietnam war, the US had practically won. Viet Cong
were surrendering in record numbers, their main forces annihilated and
their leaders begging for peace. Why would the US pull out when they had utterly crushed the Vietnamese?
Something all of you should think about is what General Vo Nguyen Giap,
the Commander in Chief of the North Vietnamese Army had to say about
John Kerry in his 1985 memoir “How We Won The War”. He said that the
North Vietnamese were planning a negotiated surrender after the 68 TET offensive. They watched the US news and heard how distorted our press
reported it and the war protesters rioting in the streets of America. He
said “We were delighted. We went from a planned surrender to a policy of needing to persevere for one more hour, day, week month, eventually the protesters in America would help us to achieve a victory we knew we
could not win on the battlefield.” He also said “If it were not for organizations like John Kerryʼs Vietnam Veterans Against the War, Hanoi
would have surrendered to the US.”

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Kevin Peterlinz
· 11h ago
So were the objections to the war about winning versus losing - or about morality?

Fear of wasting young lives in a losing effort - Or fear of winning an
immoral war?

Morally - US citizens tend not to support wars of conquest in this day
and age -

I remember discussions back in the 1960s abput how horrible it was to
support a corrupt South Vietnamese government. That this was a immoral war.

Only years afterwards do we hear that people “feared not winning”

This is spin - not truth

Absolutely bull shit for most of us.

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Paul Donnelly
· Thu
I like the late Colonel Harry Summers’ story: he was in Paris
negotiating something or other, with a North Vietnamese officer in the
other delegation. They went out for drinks and got fairly plastered. Eventually, Summers got a little belligerent: “You know, you never
defeated us on the battlefield,” he said to the guy.

Very nearly as drunk as Summers, the guy thought for second. “That may
be true,” he said, “but it is also irrelevant.”

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Dan Le
· November 14
The US had won - had achieved the Containment Policy to stop the
spreading of the evil dictatorship communism in Southeast Asia to
protect the influence of capitalism! And then the US immorally dropped
its ally Republic Vietnam (South Vietnam) to be bloodily destroyed by
the evil dictatorship Vietnamese communist party who still had support
from masters communist China and Russia in 1975!

The evil dictatorship Vietnamese communist party has been winning in the propaganda during and after the war.

I feel obligated to right a summary of Vietnam War:

After WWII the US had a need to have France to be an ally to rebuild
Europe and NATO. Even though the US hated colonism because they
correctly believed that colonism had brought the WWII which had forced
the US to get involved, the US didn’t want to interfere with French
colonism in Vietnam!

After hundred years of control Vietnam and China borders, the colonists
French knew how to deal with the Vietnamese and China. The French were
correct as saying that without the French there would be no one could
stop the spreading of evil Chinese influence/control of the South East Asia.

The Vietnamese wanted independence from the French colonists but the US couldn’t satisfy that desire by helping Vietnam to fight with the new
ally French (after WWII!

At the beginning during 1920 - 1950 it was about new learned nationalism
(from French education) that Vietnamese nationalists to try to get back
the country for themselves (not for Nguyên dynasty King Bao Dai) from
the “external “ French colonists.

In 1945 the Japanese colonists took over the control of Vietnam from the
French colonists. Then WWII came to the end to force the withdrawal of
the new Japanese colonists. The Cold War then followed to make the US to replace the French to try to stop the spreading of the evil communism in Southeast by China and Russia who had supported the evil secret Viet
Minh groups in defeating the French at Dien Bien Phu.

During 1930 - 1950 fighting against the French and the Japanese
colonists, there were many “following travelers” Nationalist Parties’ leaders- such as Phan Boi Chau, Pham Quynh, Truong Tu Anh, Dai Viet,
VNQDD, etc. who were eliminated directly or indirectly by the secret
extreme Viet Minh groups (lead by the infamous Ho Chi Minh)! The
Japanese colonists took power away from the French colonists in 1945 and
had created a Vietnamese puppet government Tran Trong Kim. This new
government had highest educated Vietnamese non-communist (nationalist
leaders). This new government only lasted 4 months as the Japanese
withdrew due to WWII lost in 1945.

The withdrawal of the Japanese colonists in 1945 had created a power
vacuum in all North South Central Vietnam. In China, similar vacuum of
power due to the fighting of Chinese Nationalists and Mao communist
party in 1945. The combination of power vacuum in two countries had
allowed Ho Chi Minh and his secret extremist Viet Minh to survive and
got support from their masters China and Russia in the border of China
and Vietnam ( Khang chien khu Tay Bac)!

in 1945 due to no centralized power control system (no external
colonists Japanese or French), the millions of Vietnamese deaths (mainly
in the North) due to starvation because the rice from the South couldn’t
be transported to the North. The Vietnamese people are still being
brainwashed by the evil dictatorship Vietnamese communist party to blame
this disaster to the Japanese colonists who already lost control of
Vietnam at that time! The Japanese puppet Vietnamese government Tran
Trong Kim had tried to help but they were too weak to make the
difference! Power vacuum had created opportunities for ALL Vietnamese
groups- including Viet Minh- to raise up to gain back the independence.
The groups in the South and Central were successful before Ho Chi Minh
Viet Minh group STOLE the independence in Hanoi. (The former Tran Trong
Kim nationalist government had more power than Viet Minh but made
crucial mistakes in allowing the Viet Minh to legally gaining power and
control Vietnam - in the traditional control fashion that whoever
controlling Hanoi means controlling the whole country Vietnam! Viet Minh
had successfully stole the legitimacy from other Vietnamese Nationalist
groups in 1945!

Ho Chi Minh then skillful in politics with saying that gaining power is
not easy as keeping power! He temporarily asked for help from other
Vietnamese Nationalist Parties’ leaders to help his Viet Minh government until he’s strong enough with the support from his masters communist
China and Russia to eliminate all others Vietnamese Nationalist Parties’ leaders!

In 1950 period, The world was in high pressure and to avoid the possible
WWIII, the western world decided to calm down conflicts by forcing both
sides- communist and capitalist- into Geneva Convention to settle the
conflict in Vietnam theater! Of course it was a temporary peaceful
effort which only gave a brief relief to split Vietnam into two
countries: The puppet North (VNDCCH country) was recognized and
supported by their masters communist China and Russia! The puppet South
(VNCH country) was recognized and supported by their masters capitalist USA!

Ho Chi Minh and his evil dictatorship Vietnamese communist party finally
showed true colors of dictatorship regime by changing the Viet Minh to Vietnamese Communist Party who had failed miserably in the economy-
especially in the copied from China Cai Cach Ruong Dat (Cultural
Revolution) which had killed over 172,000 innocent people! Ho Chi Minh
cried and simply apologized for the mistakes!

The support from China and Russia to defeat the French in Dien Bien Phu
had a price to pay. The evil dictatorship Vietnamese communist party was
gladly to be a slave for communist China and Russia to fight against the
mighty capitalist USA in the Cold War theater in Vietnam! All masters
USA, Russia and China never wanted to escalate the Cold War in Vietnam
theater. They were okay with Vietnam to be splitting into two halves as
Korea but the evil dictatorship Vietnamese communist party had failed
miserably in their new learned centralized economic system to find a
survival mechanism: they were lucky to have a new leader Le Duan who
singled handed to create the guerrilla warfare to escalate the war which
killed millions of innocent people and 55,000+ US soldiers! Instead of rebuilding the North and stay in peaceful with the South, the evil Le
Duan escalated the guerrilla warfare to get more support from the
masters communist China and Russia to sacrifice millions of innocent
people in the war!

The Vietnam War has been corrected by the historians to call it
correctly The Le Duan War. The outcome of the war had only one loser:
the former Republic Vietnam (South Vietnam). By 1970 period, The masters capitalist USA had achieved the Containment Policy to stop the spreading
of the evil communism to protect the influence of capitalism in South
East Asia. The US then immorally dropped its ally Republic Vietnam
(South Vietnam) to be bloodily destroyed by the evil dictatorship
Vietnamese communist party who still had support from their masters
communist China and Russia in 1975! The US nowadays has continued the
immoral foreign policy to support the evil dictatorship Vietnamese
communist party who has kept Vietnam to be the most “peaceful “ country
in the world to stay poor forever and only able to provide cheap labor
to benefit capitalist companies and the evil dictatorship Vietnamese
communist party leaders and their small clans followers!

The rest is ugly history for Vietnam:

Here are my opinions about Vietnam based on historical facts:

Their crazy economical policy has been called “Market Economy Under
Guidance of Socialism “ (Kinh Te Thi Truong Theo Dinh Huong XHCN!)
meaning people are allowed to make money (so that business people have
money to share/ bribe the Government) but business are not allowed to
make too much money to be more influential than the dictatorship
Vietnamese communist party. The successful business class of people will
be a threat to the small controlling group of the Party). Therefore big successful business will be brought down to make sure that they will not
be above the Party.

The evil dictatorship Vietnamese communist party knows that MONEY TALKS
louder than Loving the country. The class of successful business people
will certainly pose the threat to the Party (just like in Japan the
successful business people had eliminated the Samurai class). Therefore
no big successful business are allowed by the evil dictatorship
communist party!

The current evil dictatorship Vietnamese communist party has been
following their corrupted dictatorship ancestors feudal system Dinh, Ly,
Le, Tran, Nguyên, etc. to blame all their problems to the foreigners!
That’s the reason they can never correct their mistakes to improve!

China factors:

Vietnam has been poor and stuck in survival culture and playing victim
and being hypocrites since the birth of Vietnam in the X century. Many countries have sacrificed and fought for their independence without
blaming the foreigner factors. There was absolutely nothing great about
Vietnam fought the big China neighbors to gain independence- just the
same thing like every body else.

French colonists factors:

Many countries gained independence after colonism without falling into
the evil dictatorship communist regime.

It’s frustrating to see most of Vietnamese and followers don’t
understand how much the “external “ colonists French were much better
than the “internal” colonists Nguyên feudal system leaders and controllers. Before the French colonists came, Vietnam had been
suffering under the Nguyên feudal leaders. The Nguyên had continued the corrupted feudal system to naturally take all Vietnamese resources for
the small group of people (leaders’ clans) and gave nothing to the
common Vietnamese people. Vietnamese people and Vietnam were so poor at
the time the “external” colonists French came to take the power away
from the horrible Nguyên feudal leaders.

In a short period of time the French had given Vietnam and common
Vietnamese people many wonderful modern things like medicine, bridges, railroad, post office, infrastructure that Vietnam couldn’t even dream
of, modern education to get away from the thousand of years of old
corrupted Chinese influence, etc. and most importantly the new concept
of nationalism (country belongs to the people- not the King)! That
helped Ho Chi Minh and his generation to learn to want to fight back the
French to get Vietnam back to the people (not the Nguyên King - of course).

Colonism worked. It was much better than the feudal Nguyên dynasty. Unfortunately the evil Ho Chi Minh and his comrades had brought the evil dictatorship Vietnamese communist regime to replace the French colonists
to destroy Vietnam.

The world had recognized the crimes committed by the evil dictatorship communist regimes and renounced it. Why Vietnam didn’t do the same?!
They just don’t have freedom to get away from the evil dictatorship Vietnamese communist party!

North Vietnam was the puppet of communist China and Russia to waste
millions of innocent people lives in fighting the Cold War extension in
Vietnam theater. They have no shame concept to see how their evil
dictatorship Vietnamese communist party has brought the evil communist
regime to destroy Vietnam since 1945. The world had recognized the
crimes committed by the evil dictatorship communist regimes and
renounced it. Why Vietnam can’t do the same but continue to blame the foreigner factors?!

US Cold War in Vietnam theater;

Let’s look back to the history of the Cold War extension in Vietnam theater:

The North had no freedom under the evil dictatorship Vietnamese
communist party.

is it true that the Vietnam War is 100% Cold War in Vietnam theater? It
had nothing to do with Vietnam independence fighting because the US,
China and Russia had no interest in the fighting for independence of Vietnam Since it’s the Cold War in Vietnam theater, both North and South Vietnam
were puppets of their masters communist China and Russia, and capitalist
USA. Agree?
All masters China and Russia, and USA had afraid of escalating the war
to be the WWIII. No evidence or records of the masters instructing their puppets North and South Vietnam to escalate the war. Agree?!
Only the evil Le Duan forced the escalating of the war by pushing the
guerrilla warfare - so that he got more support from their masters
communist China and Russia. Therefore Le Duan and his evil dictatorship Vietnamese communist party were the killers of millions innocent people
in fighting the Cold War for his masters communist China and Russia. Agree. Profile photo for Chris Spring


Chris Spring
· Sat
So what happened elsewhere in SE Asia?

Myanmar is hardly an advert for supporting anti-communist generals.
Let’s be honest, that represents the direction South Vietnam was
heading. The Philippines, either under Marcos or under the present
psychopath is no poster boy for democracy either. Thailand is fortunate
that it had a king who was able to rein in the worst excesses of its
army generals otherwise that would be another Myanmar.

Indonesia might be an interesting parallel. For the first decades after independence it was ruled by the communist leaders of the independence movement. Then, as we have learned recently, the Americans and British
plotted a military takeover in which up to a million Indonesians died.
The resulting military government attracted foreign investment which
made some Indonesians very rich. However that wealth did not trickle
down to the ordinary people and Indonesia is still one of the poorest
countries in ASEAN despite its natural resources.

Indonesia’s Soekarno and Ho Chi Minh were cut from the same cloth. If
America and France hadn’t plotted to partition Vietnam to keep Ho from
ruling all of it his regime would likely have been like Soekarno’s, authoritarian but making slow improvements. But then the CIA would have
plotted a coup as they did everywhere else, so the Vietnam war would
just have happened ten years later.

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