• meta: countries in the sea of time

    From pyotr filipivich@21:1/5 to All on Wed Feb 19 13:09:24 2020
    XPost: alt.time-travel

    Rich Rostrom <rrostrom.21stcentury@rcn.com> on Tue, 21 May 2013
    20:46:05 -0500 typed in alt.time-travel the following:
    Ed Stasiak <estasiak@att.net> wrote:

    Canada, I suppose and Mexico definitely but what
    does the U.S. import that is critical to its survival,
    that the U.S. couldn't or doesn't already make?

    Lots of electronic devices and electronic
    components; power supplies, integrated
    circuits, capacitors, batteries.

    Computer disk drives.

    Bits and pieces of almost everything,
    because Chinese suppliers are
    ubiquitous.

    There is a lot of manufacturing in the states which is dependent
    upon imported supplies. Not just raw materials, but machine tools
    components (e.G., ceramic inserts for machining).
    Again, the question is how long to make current stockpiles last compared to how long to bring new production online.
    --
    pyotr filipivich
    Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

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  • From SolomonW@21:1/5 to pyotr filipivich on Thu Feb 20 18:52:15 2020
    XPost: alt.time-travel

    On Wed, 19 Feb 2020 13:09:24 -0800, pyotr filipivich wrote:

    Rich Rostrom <rrostrom.21stcentury@rcn.com> on Tue, 21 May 2013
    20:46:05 -0500 typed in alt.time-travel the following:
    Ed Stasiak <estasiak@att.net> wrote:

    Canada, I suppose and Mexico definitely but what
    does the U.S. import that is critical to its survival,
    that the U.S. couldn't or doesn't already make?

    Lots of electronic devices and electronic
    components; power supplies, integrated
    circuits, capacitors, batteries.

    Computer disk drives.

    Bits and pieces of almost everything,
    because Chinese suppliers are
    ubiquitous.

    There is a lot of manufacturing in the states which is dependent
    upon imported supplies. Not just raw materials, but machine tools
    components (e.G., ceramic inserts for machining).
    Again, the question is how long to make current stockpiles last compared to how long to bring new production online.


    The people going back know exactly where the raw materials are

    and Labor charges would be very cheap,

    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Maddison_GDP_per_capita_1500-1950.svg

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  • From pyotr filipivich@21:1/5 to All on Thu Feb 20 09:03:04 2020
    XPost: alt.time-travel

    SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com> on Thu, 20 Feb 2020 18:52:15 +1100 typed
    in soc.history.what-if the following:

    There is a lot of manufacturing in the states which is dependent
    upon imported supplies. Not just raw materials, but machine tools
    components (e.G., ceramic inserts for machining).
    Again, the question is how long to make current stockpiles last
    compared to how long to bring new production online.

    The people going back know exactly where the raw materials are

    True. Do they have enough to keep going until they can get those
    raw materials found, mined, and refined?
    I read Stirling's "Conquistador" which has "The New Commonwealth
    of Virginia" colonized in an alternate California where the European's
    never arrived. The founder had commissioned a number of engineering
    studies "here" so that he could build dams, etc, "there". He's got
    the entire California gold fields ripe for the pickings, and a few
    gold mines outside the US "here" to account for the gold he is
    "producing". And so forth.

    As I said, knowing where the resources are doesn't mean that you
    have access to them E.G. OHIO ISOT in 1490, there's oil just over the
    border at Oil Creek near Titusvile, Pennsylvania. But there is no
    road to there. Can the Republic of Ohio send an expedition to Oil
    Creek, drill the well, and get the crude oil refined before they run
    out of POL? I have no idea. (I also have no idea if there are any
    oil seeps _in_ Ohio which might be exploitable first.)

    and Labor charges would be very cheap,

    Well, you'd definitely not have the Federal Office of Contract Compliance on your case. B-)
    --
    pyotr filipivich.
    For Sale: Uncirculated Roman Drachmas, feature Julius Ceaser's Portrait, several dated 44 BCE. Comes with Certificate of Authenticity.

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  • From Rich Rostrom@21:1/5 to pyotr filipivich on Thu Feb 20 15:57:20 2020
    XPost: alt.time-travel

    pyotr filipivich <phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:

    E.G. OHIO ISOT in 1490, there's oil just over the
    border at Oil Creek near Titusvile, Pennsylvania.

    70 km over the border.

    But there is no road to there. Can the Republic of
    Ohio send an expedition to Oil Creek, drill the
    well...

    ITYM _wells_. One well is not going to supply 11M people.

    and get the crude oil refined before they run
    out of POL?

    No. WIth draconian rationing, the stock of POL in Ohio
    might last three months. (For the last month, only
    utterly essential uses.)

    To get a useful supply of oil from Titusville, Ohio must
    build 70 km of road, including probably several good sized
    bridges, drill at least 50 wells, 70 km of pipeline to
    bring the oil to the border, and another pipeline inside
    Ohio to get the oil to the nearest refinery. Impossible
    to get all this done in three months.
    --
    Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
    --- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

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  • From pyotr filipivich@21:1/5 to All on Thu Feb 20 15:50:37 2020
    XPost: alt.time-travel

    Rich Rostrom <rrostrom@comcast.net> on Thu, 20 Feb 2020 15:57:20 -0600
    typed in alt.time-travel the following:
    pyotr filipivich <phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:

    E.G. OHIO ISOT in 1490, there's oil just over the
    border at Oil Creek near Titusvile, Pennsylvania.
    70 km over the border.
    But there is no road to there. Can the Republic of
    Ohio send an expedition to Oil Creek, drill the
    well...
    ITYM _wells_. One well is not going to supply 11M people.

    And not that well, either. OTOH, there _may_ be better sites
    close to Ohio.

    Second factor: is it spring, fall or middle of winter? Weather
    makes for other considerations,

    and get the crude oil refined before they run
    out of POL?

    No. WIth draconian rationing, the stock of POL in Ohio
    might last three months. (For the last month, only
    utterly essential uses.)

    How much corn can get converted to alcohol? (Okay, how much more?
    B-) )

    To get a useful supply of oil from Titusville, Ohio must
    build 70 km of road, including probably several good sized
    bridges,

    If there are wildcatters in Ohio ... (I live in logging country.
    When the Oso slide took out the highway, the logging companies were
    able to throw a road around it a very short time. They had the
    equipment and know how to "make a roadway". Maybe not pretty, but it
    would support logging trucks.)

    drill at least 50 wells, 70 km of pipeline to
    bring the oil to the border, and another pipeline inside
    Ohio to get the oil to the nearest refinery. Impossible
    to get all this done in three months.

    And there in lays the bind. Yes, we know where all those
    resources are. A) Do we have the equipment to get it out?
    --
    pyotr filipivich
    Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

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  • From Dimensional Traveler@21:1/5 to pyotr filipivich on Thu Feb 20 16:25:27 2020
    XPost: alt.time-travel

    On 2/20/2020 3:50 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
    Rich Rostrom <rrostrom@comcast.net> on Thu, 20 Feb 2020 15:57:20 -0600
    typed in alt.time-travel the following:
    pyotr filipivich <phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:

    E.G. OHIO ISOT in 1490, there's oil just over the
    border at Oil Creek near Titusvile, Pennsylvania.
    70 km over the border.
    But there is no road to there. Can the Republic of
    Ohio send an expedition to Oil Creek, drill the
    well...
    ITYM _wells_. One well is not going to supply 11M people.

    And not that well, either. OTOH, there _may_ be better sites
    close to Ohio.

    Second factor: is it spring, fall or middle of winter? Weather
    makes for other considerations,

    and get the crude oil refined before they run
    out of POL?

    No. WIth draconian rationing, the stock of POL in Ohio
    might last three months. (For the last month, only
    utterly essential uses.)

    How much corn can get converted to alcohol? (Okay, how much more?
    B-) )

    To get a useful supply of oil from Titusville, Ohio must
    build 70 km of road, including probably several good sized
    bridges,

    If there are wildcatters in Ohio ... (I live in logging country.
    When the Oso slide took out the highway, the logging companies were
    able to throw a road around it a very short time. They had the
    equipment and know how to "make a roadway". Maybe not pretty, but it
    would support logging trucks.)

    drill at least 50 wells, 70 km of pipeline to
    bring the oil to the border, and another pipeline inside
    Ohio to get the oil to the nearest refinery. Impossible
    to get all this done in three months.

    And there in lays the bind. Yes, we know where all those
    resources are. A) Do we have the equipment to get it out?

    For some of it you won't need current state of the art. The oil
    industry started by literally scooping oil up off the ground from where
    it was seeping up. If you are exploiting virgin territory you can start
    doing that again to help you keep going while you bootstrap yourself up.

    --
    "You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"

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  • From pyotr filipivich@21:1/5 to All on Thu Feb 20 18:16:53 2020
    XPost: alt.time-travel

    Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> on Thu, 20 Feb 2020 16:25:27
    -0800 typed in soc.history.what-if the following:

    drill at least 50 wells, 70 km of pipeline to
    bring the oil to the border, and another pipeline inside
    Ohio to get the oil to the nearest refinery. Impossible
    to get all this done in three months.

    And there in lays the bind. Yes, we know where all those
    resources are. A) Do we have the equipment to get it out?

    For some of it you won't need current state of the art. The oil
    industry started by literally scooping oil up off the ground from where
    it was seeping up. If you are exploiting virgin territory you can start >doing that again to help you keep going while you bootstrap yourself up.

    True. Drake was able to get some oil using a salt-drilling rig,
    and "struck oil" at less than sixty feet. I would not be surprised if
    similar rigs exist in Modern Ohio, and could do a better job of
    drilling than Drake had been able.
    We're still looking at the issue of infrastructure and logistics.
    Where it is, and how hard to get there, extract it, and stuff back.

    As we say in the family, "It all depends on the needs of the
    plot."
    --
    pyotr filipivich.
    For Sale: Uncirculated Roman Drachmas, feature Julius Ceaser's Portrait, several dated 44 BCE. Comes with Certificate of Authenticity.

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  • From Rich Rostrom@21:1/5 to pyotr filipivich on Fri Feb 21 23:08:09 2020
    XPost: alt.time-travel

    pyotr filipivich <phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:

    I live in logging country.
    When the Oso slide took out the highway, the logging companies were
    able to throw a road around it a very short time.

    The Oso slide covered about 1.3 km of the road.

    The road to Titusville has to cover 70 km from one end.
    --
    Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
    --- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From pyotr filipivich@21:1/5 to All on Sat Feb 22 11:04:02 2020
    XPost: alt.time-travel

    Rich Rostrom <rrostrom@comcast.net> on Fri, 21 Feb 2020 23:08:09 -0600
    typed in alt.time-travel the following:
    pyotr filipivich <phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:

    I live in logging country.
    When the Oso slide took out the highway, the logging companies were
    able to throw a road around it a very short time.

    The Oso slide covered about 1.3 km of the road.

    The road to Titusville has to cover 70 km from one end.

    True. But therein is part of the point. There is a need for 70
    km of road. Not "70 km of interstate highway", but "70 km of two lane
    (at best) road." Bulldoze the trees, use them for corduroy, and lay
    down gravel / dirt. Like the building of the Al-Can in 1942, just
    clear a roadway to the site (which does not have to be Titusville,
    could be closer). Once there, start the drilling, and go back and
    improve the roadway.

    All of which is very dependent upon the needs of the plot, and the season of the year.

    HA! I just query the Interwebs. The State of Pennsylvania has an interactive map. North of Sharpsville is the "OLD PRITCHARD FARM 2"
    well, SPUD date "1/1/1800" plugged 1991. That is about 9 km from
    Yankee Lake in Ohio, about 4 km from the state line as the crow flies
    if the crow has to walk and follow the paved roads. B-)
    There are others, plugged in OTL, a short ways over the border.
    I'm not saying that in a pre 1490 PA it would be an easy trip, but
    much easier than getting to Oil City or Titusville. There is a
    refinery in Canton. two in Toledo, one in Lima.

    And there is something else to consider: ISOT how much of the Web
    is available to you for such research? Of coruse, surveying is going
    to be a grow industry. Without GPS, "Where TheHeckAreWe" is going to
    be a common place name. B-)


    Hmmm, there are a lot of wells in eastern Ohio (surprise). Big question: ISOT, how depleted are they going to be? I.e., are they
    likely to start getting some of the petroleum deposits in alt-PA
    moving into the Ohio portion of the field? I have no idea, and
    "depends on the needs of the plot."

    OK, we've solved Ohio's POL needs, what about [State Name goes
    here]?
    --
    pyotr filipivich
    Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

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  • From pyotr filipivich@21:1/5 to All on Wed Feb 26 09:49:32 2020
    XPost: alt.time-travel

    Greetings and Salutations

    I had been researching Ohio in a sea of time, and getting POL
    (Petrol, Oil, Lubricants) to keep things moving. Not as big a problem
    as initially considered.

    However, on reflection, I realized that POL might be in short
    supply, and rationing would ensue. How would that be done, yada ...
    oh, no!? How are you planning to pay for your gas ration? Debit
    card?
    Without GPS signals, and their clocks, ATMs would not work. (As
    well as a lot of other things.) So you go to the bank, and ... they
    only have a limited amount of cash on hand, enough for N customers,
    and you are customer N+1. Talk about a liquidity crunch.

    But don't worry, you've got more money coming, from an investment account, based in Pittsburgh. Or a Federal paycheck / pension. Or a
    Social Security check.
    I suspect all manner of economic turmoil ensuing. Inflation
    (more money than goods) as items become suddenly scarce relative to desirability. Deflation (more goods than money) as the available
    amount of cash has to cover more items. Or aren't considered
    important anymore. That summer camp in Minnesota, for example.
    Yesterday, Mr Jones was a wealthy man, today his out of state
    holdings are gone. Yesterday Ms Smith was not so well off, today she
    has this huge stack of dollar bills. ("See Ma! I told you 'Exotic
    dancer' can be a lucrative career!")
    --
    pyotr filipivich.
    For Sale: Uncirculated Roman Drachmas, feature Julius Ceaser's Portrait, several dated 44 BCE. Comes with Certificate of Authenticity.

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  • From Rich Rostrom@21:1/5 to pyotr filipivich on Thu Feb 27 10:06:01 2020
    XPost: alt.time-travel

    pyotr filipivich <phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:

    Without GPS signals, and their clocks, ATMs would not work.

    I very much doubt that ATMs use GPS. They are connected
    to the Net, and rely on NTP service. Which has gone out,
    too. (No stratum 0 NTP servers in Ohio. Though I suppose
    lower stratum servers keep running on their own if they
    lose upstream connection.)

    A more immediate problem would be the collapse of wireless
    phone service, and the failure of numerous non-phone devices
    which use the wireless-phone network to communicate. Local
    cell towers wouldn't be disabled themselves, but the IT
    which manages the services would be partly missing.

    I suspect all manner of economic turmoil ensuing.

    Jeeze. Ya think? The economy and industry of an ISoTed
    modern territory would function about as well as an
    organ cut out of a body.

    I.e. it's not an organism, it's part of a larger
    organism.

    The larger the ISoT (and the more separate the ISoT
    realm from the rest of the UT world, e.g. Australia),
    the more it can function. Otherwise, "transit shock"
    of varying severity. Instant cut-off of all utility
    connections (electricity, gas, water).

    Also, of course, the nearer to the present, the more
    interdependent with the rest of the world.

    Assuming "transit shock" is survived, the ISoT realm
    has to deal with the end of all commercial, legal,
    and financial links to the outside. If the ISoT is
    historical, there will be enormous disputes over
    cross-owned property and intellectual property.

    Political life may be a mess. Ohio has a government,
    but it is also subject to parallel ederal authority,
    which has just been decapitated. The governor would
    assume "presidential" authority over US military
    elements in the state.

    But what happens with Federal law? With Federal
    courts? Do Ohio's legislature and supreme court take
    over for the US Congress and Supreme Court?
    --
    Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
    --- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

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  • From MummyChunk@21:1/5 to All on Sun Mar 15 16:39:05 2020
    Dan Goodman wrote:
    A country is sent back several thousand years into the past.
    (Occupying
    the same area.) Which countries might do well, and which
    wouldn't?

    I suspect Nazi Germany would manage to get itself defeated in war.

    From our time into the past? Don't know.

    From several thousand years in the future into our time?



    --
    Dan Goodman

    A well done movie with the idea you speak about
    (Nazi Germany transported back to a different point in time) seems
    fascinating.

    Always felt cheated by The Final Countdown that the ship (Aircraft
    Carrier Nimitz) was sucked back to the present at the very end.


    This is a response to the post seen at: http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=219664043#219664043

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  • From a425couple@21:1/5 to MummyChunk on Sat Apr 18 08:44:54 2020
    On 3/15/2020 2:39 PM, MummyChunk wrote:

    > Dan Goodman wrote:
    > A country is sent back several thousand years into the past.
    (Occupying
    > the same area.) Which countries might do well, and which
    wouldn't?
    >
    > I suspect Nazi Germany would manage to get itself defeated in war.
    >
    > From our time into the past? Don't know.
    >
    > From several thousand years in the future into our time?
    > Dan Goodman

    A well done movie with the idea you speak about
    (Nazi Germany transported back to a different point in time) seems fascinating.

    Always felt cheated by The Final Countdown that the ship (Aircraft
    Carrier Nimitz) was sucked back to the present at the very end.

    This is a response to the post seen at: http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=219664043#219664043


    You might consider/try the book "Island in the Sea of Time"
    by SM Stirling. At least read the Amazon and Goodreads entries.

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