• Proving ancestry in Nazi Europe

    From Diana Helen Gomes da Costa Mohr dia@21:1/5 to All on Tue Aug 27 15:25:02 2019
    X-No-archive: yes
    I have heard it stated that in some countries overrun by the Nazis, that
    local populations were required to prove their lack of Jewish ancestry by producing their own family trees. Is this just a myth or is it true and if
    so, which countries were affected? Regarding Germany, I don't think this
    was the case but perhaps it might have been in some areas?

    All ideas welcome on this issue!

    Diana (Mohr) Gomes da Costa, Kent UK - formerly from London -
    Researcher number: 166938 email: dianadacosta@btinternet.com

    Researches include ARNSTEIN, BACH, BASS, BERLIN, COHN, DITTMANN, FLACHFELD, GUETERMANN, HAHN, HELLMANN, HIRSCHMANN, KOHN, KRAILSHEIMER, KUGLER, LOEWI, MANES, MARX, MENDEL, MORGENTHAU, MOHR, ROSENFELD, ROSENWALD, UHLMANN, WEIKERSHEIMER and ZIRNDORFER - all originally from Bavaria, mainly Furth, Nurnberg and Bamberg as listed in the JGFF database. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    The 39th IAJGS International Conference on Jewish Genealogy is now
    history, but you can still enjoy the presentations by purchasing the
    Fleetwood audio/video recordings (visit fleetwood.iajgs2019.org). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Watch JewishGen's video -- click here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nASSn4rDXh4 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Planning to use Ancestry.com? Start by using the "Ancestry Search Box"
    on the JewishGen homepage.
    By doing this, any eventual subscription to Ancestry.com will result in Jewishgen receiving a commission.
    It's an easy way to help JewishGen! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Support JewishGen with a contribution to the JewishGen General Fund!
    http://www.jewishgen.org/jewishgen-erosity/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Sign up for the JGFFAlert!
    http://www.jewishgen.org/jgff/jgff-faq.html#q3.7 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Join our mailing list at http://lyris.jewishgen.org/ListManager if you
    would like the convenience of receiving all soc.genealogy.jewish posts in
    your mailbox, instead of having to search for them in the newsgroup, whose content may not be consistently carried in its entirety by all providers.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Enzo Falco enzofalco@earthlink.net@21:1/5 to Diana da Costa on Wed Aug 28 13:50:25 2019
    X-No-archive: yes
    An Italian cousin whose Jewish father moved to Italy from Germany about 1910, told me that in Germany, after about 1933, all citizens had to keep up to
    date a document, passport size, with their family tree. Every time they
    updated it they had to go to the authorities where it was stamped with the current date. I saw one in the Holocaust section of the British Imperial War Museum and took a poor picture through the glass cabinet. I had read that
    Nazi Germany encouraged the Jews to investigate their genealogy. IBM punched cards were immensely used to keep track of all of this data.

    The Nuremberg laws of about 1938 defined a Jew if less than a certain percentage of their ancestry was Jewish. I think it was specified that you
    had to have not a single Jewish grandparent for a specified number of generations.

    In Italy, according to the Anti-Jewish laws of 1938, patterned after the Nuremberg laws, required all Jews to bring their birth certificates to the local police station where it was stamped with, "Of the Jewish Race." I understood that passports were also similarly stamped. Similarly to Germany, you were not Jewish if you had no Jewish grandparents for a number of generations. Italy, being a "nicer" country, the number of generations was
    less than Germany! Also you were exempted from this law for a number of
    reasons such as being a Medal of Honor winner in WW I, having a disability
    of so many limbs missing, etc.

    Enzo Falco
    Belmont, Massachusetts
    USA

    "Diana da Costa" <dianadacosta@btinternet.com> wrote:
    I have heard it stated that in some countries overrun by the Nazis, that local populations were required to prove their lack of Jewish ancestry by producing their own family trees. Is this just a myth or is it true and if so, which countries were affected? Regarding Germany, I don't think this
    was the case but perhaps it might have been in some areas?
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    The 39th IAJGS International Conference on Jewish Genealogy is now
    history, but you can still enjoy the presentations by purchasing the
    Fleetwood audio/video recordings (visit fleetwood.iajgs2019.org). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Watch JewishGen's video -- click here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nASSn4rDXh4 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Planning to use Ancestry.com? Start by using the "Ancestry Search Box"
    on the JewishGen homepage.
    By doing this, any eventual subscription to Ancestry.com will result in Jewishgen receiving a commission.
    It's an easy way to help JewishGen! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Support JewishGen with a contribution to the JewishGen General Fund!
    http://www.jewishgen.org/jewishgen-erosity/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Sign up for the JGFFAlert!
    http://www.jewishgen.org/jgff/jgff-faq.html#q3.7 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Join our mailing list at http://lyris.jewishgen.org/ListManager if you
    would like the convenience of receiving all soc.genealogy.jewish posts in
    your mailbox, instead of having to search for them in the newsgroup, whose content may not be consistently carried in its entirety by all providers.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From ayana.kimron@gmail.com ayana.kimron@21:1/5 to All on Tue Sep 3 14:16:25 2019
    X-No-archive: yes
    Diana,
    A German friend showed me their family tree signed by the swastica
    stamp. (Genealogically it is an amazing document).
    According to his grandmother, they had to keep it within hands reach
    during Nazi era.
    So, whether Federal or State policy, in Germany it is definitely not a myth.
    I hope it helps.
    Ayana KimRon
    FamilyRoots2000@gmail.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    The 39th IAJGS International Conference on Jewish Genealogy is now
    history, but you can still enjoy the presentations by purchasing the
    Fleetwood audio/video recordings (visit fleetwood.iajgs2019.org). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Watch JewishGen's video -- click here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nASSn4rDXh4 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Planning to use Ancestry.com? Start by using the "Ancestry Search Box"
    on the JewishGen homepage.
    By doing this, any eventual subscription to Ancestry.com will result in Jewishgen receiving a commission.
    It's an easy way to help JewishGen! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Support JewishGen with a contribution to the JewishGen General Fund!
    http://www.jewishgen.org/jewishgen-erosity/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Sign up for the JGFFAlert!
    http://www.jewishgen.org/jgff/jgff-faq.html#q3.7 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Join our mailing list at http://lyris.jewishgen.org/ListManager if you
    would like the convenience of receiving all soc.genealogy.jewish posts in
    your mailbox, instead of having to search for them in the newsgroup, whose content may not be consistently carried in its entirety by all providers.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Diana Helen Gomes da Costa Mohr dia@21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 9 17:35:45 2019
    X-No-archive: yes
    Two weeks ago I posed the following query:

    "I have heard it stated that in some countries overrun by the Nazis, that
    local populations were required to prove their lack of Jewish ancestry by producing their own family trees. Is this just a myth or is it true and if so, which countries were affected? Regarding Germany, I don't think this
    was the case but perhaps it might have been in some areas? All ideas
    welcome on this issue!"

    There were so many useful responses which I have summarised in case others might find the information equally helpful:

    In short, it was not a myth that the non-Jewish population had to prove non-Jewish ancestry. In fact, it was in many instances a matter of survival
    as well as an opening for promotion within the ranks of the SS and the
    Gestapo and the opportunity to get a job in the public service or join a university. From 1935 it was also needed by those who wanted to get married.

    The evidence took the form of either a document or a family tree showing
    Aryan ancestry which then had to be verified by the Nazis, some were stamped with a swastika. Some (e.g. those wanting to join the SS) had to research
    their ancestry back into the 18th Century, no mean feat in pre-computer days!

    Many who wrote to me stated that they had been informed of the practice by non-Jewish friends, descendants of those who had to produce this
    documentation. This practice was not confined to Germany but my respondents also reported that the practice was also known in France, Italy, Holland and Austria. The inference could be drawn that enforcing people to produce proof of Aryan ancestry was probably commonplace in all the countries invaded by
    the Nazi regime.

    I was also sent this link which giving more detail, I found most useful: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_certificate

    A big "thank you" to everyone for their help.

    Diana (Mohr) Gomes da Costa, Kent UK - formerly from London -
    Researcher number: 166938 email: dianadacosta@btinternet.com

    Researches include ARNSTEIN, BACH, BASS, BERLIN, COHN, DITTMANN, FLACHFELD, GUETERMANN, HAHN, HELLMANN, HIRSCHMANN, KOHN, KRAILSHEIMER, KUGLER, LOEWI, MANES, MARX, MENDEL, MORGENTHAU, MOHR, ROSENFELD, ROSENWALD, UHLMANN, WEIKERSHEIMER and ZIRNDORFER - all originally from Bavaria, mainly Furth, Nurnberg and Bamberg as listed in the JGFF database. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    The 39th IAJGS International Conference on Jewish Genealogy is now
    history, but you can still enjoy the presentations by purchasing the
    Fleetwood audio/video recordings (visit fleetwood.iajgs2019.org). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Watch JewishGen's video -- click here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nASSn4rDXh4 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Planning to use Ancestry.com? Start by using the "Ancestry Search Box"
    on the JewishGen homepage.
    By doing this, any eventual subscription to Ancestry.com will result in Jewishgen receiving a commission.
    It's an easy way to help JewishGen! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Support JewishGen with a contribution to the JewishGen General Fund!
    http://www.jewishgen.org/jewishgen-erosity/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Sign up for the JGFFAlert!
    http://www.jewishgen.org/jgff/jgff-faq.html#q3.7 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Join our mailing list at http://lyris.jewishgen.org/ListManager if you
    would like the convenience of receiving all soc.genealogy.jewish posts in
    your mailbox, instead of having to search for them in the newsgroup, whose content may not be consistently carried in its entirety by all providers.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Eva Karoline Lawrence eva.lawrence@@21:1/5 to All on Wed Sep 11 16:35:01 2019
    X-No-archive: yes
    To back up Thomas Kemper, I'd like to reprise a post I'd already sent,
    but unfortunately in formatted form. Genealogy was quite a popular
    gentleman's hobby among middle-class Jews, well before the Nazi
    administration made terrible use of it.

    I have copies of a letter from my great-uncle, dated 1924, asking the Burgermeister of Biedesheim in Bavaria for details of his maternal grandfather's family (12 children!). He received a detailed reply,
    with exact the date of birth for each. My late father, too, left file of
    family trees and correspondence on the subject. His research was made
    for his own pleasure, but the results may well have saved our lives,
    when he was able to contact family members who provided the guarantees
    for our entry visas.

    Family records were kept locally under every European jurisdiction,
    to keep tabs on the population for all sorts of administrative purposes
    (eg road maintenance, property law, market licences, taxation, school administration, workhouses) I don't know the American system, but in
    Europe they have been universal, and don't per se have any sinister connotations.

    In Germany (as in England) they were the province of local religious organisations, be they church or synagogue until the start of the 1800s.
    If there was no formal local community, the recording task fell to
    the local Protestant clergyman. Some GerSiggers have been perturbed to
    find their ancestors BMDs in Church records, but this only happened if
    there was no recognised local Jewish community.

    It was the French Revolutionaries and then Napoleon Bonaparte who first introduced the new concept of Civil registration, in order to curb the political power of the Churches (and the Rabbis).

    Eva Lawrence
    St Albans, UK
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    The 39th IAJGS International Conference on Jewish Genealogy is now
    history, but you can still enjoy the presentations by purchasing the
    Fleetwood audio/video recordings (visit fleetwood.iajgs2019.org). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Watch JewishGen's video -- click here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nASSn4rDXh4 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Planning to use Ancestry.com? Start by using the "Ancestry Search Box"
    on the JewishGen homepage.
    By doing this, any eventual subscription to Ancestry.com will result in Jewishgen receiving a commission.
    It's an easy way to help JewishGen! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Support JewishGen with a contribution to the JewishGen General Fund!
    http://www.jewishgen.org/jewishgen-erosity/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Sign up for the JGFFAlert!
    http://www.jewishgen.org/jgff/jgff-faq.html#q3.7 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Join our mailing list at http://lyris.jewishgen.org/ListManager if you
    would like the convenience of receiving all soc.genealogy.jewish posts in
    your mailbox, instead of having to search for them in the newsgroup, whose content may not be consistently carried in its entirety by all providers.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)