Is the information above correct and are there any other Edward I descents that were missed?
On Tuesday, November 16, 2021 at 1:03:13 PM UTC-8, Andrew Z wrote:
Is the information above correct and are there any other Edward I descents that were missed?Dear Andrew,
I have William Ponsonby, 1st Viscount Duncannon (1659-1724) in my database. Yes, the Edward I descents you outline in your post are correct. All of the viscount's Edward I descents were through his mother Hon. Elizabeth (Foliot), Lady Ponsonby.
I have one further line of descent from Edward I for Lady Ponsonby which you did not outline. It is through her mother Anne (Strode) (Foliot), Countess of Roscommon.
Edward I had a dau:
1) Elizabeth, Countess of Hereford (1282-1316), who had
2) Lady Eleanor de Bohun, Countess of Ormond (c.1310-1363), who had
3) Lady Petronilla Butler, Lady Talbot (c.1335-1368), who had
4) Richard, 4th Lord Talbot (by 1361-1396), who had
5) Alice Talbot (c.1393-1436) m. 1) Sir Thomas Barre, and had
6) Elizabeth Barre (c.1414-1468) m. Sir Edmund Cornewall, and had
7) Thomas Cornewall of Burford (c.1431-aft.1472) m. Elizabeth Lenthall, and had
8) Sir Edmund Cornewall of Burford (c.1450-1489) m. Margaret Horde, and had 9) Anne Cornewall m. Peter Blount of Sodington Hall (c.1459-1527), and had 10) Thomas Blount of Sodington Hall (d. 1562) m. 1) Katherine Stanford, and had
11) Elizabeth Blount (c.1520-1582) m. William Clifton of Barrington Court, and had
12) Theophilia Clifton m. 1) Thomas Strode of Stoke-sub-Hamdon, and had
13) Anne Strode (1582-1652) m. 1) Henry, 1st Baron Folliott of Ballyshannon (1569-1622, descended from Edward I), and had
14) Hon. Elizabeth Foliot m. Sir John Ponsonby of Bessborough (1608-1678), and had
15) William Ponsonby, 1st Viscount Duncannon (1659-1724)
Hope this helps.
Cheers, -------Brad
On Tuesday, November 16, 2021 at 1:03:13 PM UTC-8, Andrew Z wrote:
Is the information above correct and are there any other Edward I descents that were missed?Dear Andrew,
I have William Ponsonby, 1st Viscount Duncannon (1659-1724) in my database. Yes, the Edward I descents you outline in your post are correct. All of the viscount's Edward I descents were through his mother Hon. Elizabeth (Foliot), Lady Ponsonby.
I have one further line of descent from Edward I for Lady Ponsonby which you did not outline. It is through her mother Anne (Strode) (Foliot), Countess of Roscommon.
Edward I had a dau:
1) Elizabeth, Countess of Hereford (1282-1316), who had
2) Lady Eleanor de Bohun, Countess of Ormond (c.1310-1363), who had
3) Lady Petronilla Butler, Lady Talbot (c.1335-1368), who had
4) Richard, 4th Lord Talbot (by 1361-1396), who had
5) Alice Talbot (c.1393-1436) m. 1) Sir Thomas Barre, and had
6) Elizabeth Barre (c.1414-1468) m. Sir Edmund Cornewall, and had
7) Thomas Cornewall of Burford (c.1431-aft.1472) m. Elizabeth Lenthall, and had
8) Sir Edmund Cornewall of Burford (c.1450-1489) m. Margaret Horde, and had 9) Anne Cornewall m. Peter Blount of Sodington Hall (c.1459-1527), and had 10) Thomas Blount of Sodington Hall (d. 1562) m. 1) Katherine Stanford, and had
11) Elizabeth Blount (c.1520-1582) m. William Clifton of Barrington Court, and had
12) Theophilia Clifton m. 1) Thomas Strode of Stoke-sub-Hamdon, and had
13) Anne Strode (1582-1652) m. 1) Henry, 1st Baron Folliott of Ballyshannon (1569-1622, descended from Edward I), and had
14) Hon. Elizabeth Foliot m. Sir John Ponsonby of Bessborough (1608-1678), and had
15) William Ponsonby, 1st Viscount Duncannon (1659-1724)
Hope this helps.
Cheers, -------Brad
I know this is out of the group's time period scope, but would your database happen to have any additional Edward I descents for William Ponsonby's grandson (through his daughter, Letitia), James May, Baronet or for his wife, Anne Moore? CB: https://archive.org/details/completebaroneta05coka/page/367/mode/1up
On Tuesday, November 16, 2021 at 6:57:06 PM UTC-8, Andrew Z wrote:archive.org/details/completebaroneta05coka/page/367/mode/1up
I know this is out of the group's time period scope, but would your database happen to have any additional Edward I descents for William Ponsonby's grandson (through his daughter, Letitia), James May, Baronet or for his wife, Anne Moore? CB: https://
I now do not have any Edward I descents for the 1st Viscount Duncannon's wife, Mary (Moore) Ponsonby (1661-1713), as I've removed Sybilla Turpin from my database.Brad, can you refresh my memory on one aspect of Mary Moore's ancestry - and possible Edward I descents?
I don't yet have their daughter Letitia (Ponsonby) May or her son Sir James May, 1st Baronet of Mayfield (c.1724-1811), in my database. Hopefully another SocGenMed member has traced them.
Cheers, ------Brad
On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 7:56:19 AM UTC-8, Brad Verity wrote:/archive.org/details/completebaroneta05coka/page/367/mode/1up
On Tuesday, November 16, 2021 at 6:57:06 PM UTC-8, Andrew Z wrote:
I know this is out of the group's time period scope, but would your database happen to have any additional Edward I descents for William Ponsonby's grandson (through his daughter, Letitia), James May, Baronet or for his wife, Anne Moore? CB: https:/
descents, but I can' remember the specifics. Can you help?I now do not have any Edward I descents for the 1st Viscount Duncannon's wife, Mary (Moore) Ponsonby (1661-1713), as I've removed Sybilla Turpin from my database.
I don't yet have their daughter Letitia (Ponsonby) May or her son Sir James May, 1st Baronet of Mayfield (c.1724-1811), in my database. Hopefully another SocGenMed member has traced them.
Cheers, ------BradBrad, can you refresh my memory on one aspect of Mary Moore's ancestry - and possible Edward I descents?
Genealogics shows (and I also have in my data) Edward I descents for Mary Moore via Dorothy Vernon, wife of Humphrey Hill. I vaguely recall that there was an issue about the parentage of Dorothy Vernon which would have caused the loss of her Edward I
https://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00593773&tree=LEO&parentset=0&display=standard&generations=6the wife of the 2nd Marquess of Donegall.
For some of the descendants of Letitia (Ponsonby) May, see the article on the May baronetcy in the Complete Baronetage. A bit of scandal: the 2nd Baronet had 4 children by a second wife before he actually married her, and one of those children became
Brad, can you refresh my memory on one aspect of Mary Moore's ancestry - and possible Edward I descents?
Genealogics shows (and I also have in my data) Edward I descents for Mary Moore via Dorothy Vernon, wife of Humphrey Hill. I vaguely recall that there was an issue about the parentage of Dorothy Vernon which would have caused the loss of her Edward Idescents, but I can' remember the specifics. Can you help?
For some of the descendants of Letitia (Ponsonby) May, see the article on the May baronetcy in the Complete Baronetage. A bit of scandal: the 2nd Baronet had 4 children by a second wife before he actually married her, and one of those children becamethe wife of the 2nd Marquess of Donegall.
On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 5:46:20 PM UTC-8, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:1553, so born by 1532. His mother Anne (Ludlow) Vernon was born in 1482, and his parents were contracted to be married 26 September 1493, so I've estimated Thomas Vernon to be born about 1510. It might have been a little earlier. I don't have a marriage
Brad, can you refresh my memory on one aspect of Mary Moore's ancestry - and possible Edward I descents?Dear John,
Per Genealogics, the line of descent is as follows:
Edward I had a dau:
1) Elizabeth, Countess of Hereford (1282-1316), who had
2) William de Bohun, 1st Earl of Northampton (c.1309-1360), who had
3) Lady Elizabeth de Bohun, Countess of Arundel (c.1344-1385), who had
4) Lady Elizabeth Fitzalan (c.1370-1425) m. 3) Sir Robert Goushill, and had 5) Elizabeth Goushill (b. 1402) m. Sir Robert Wingfield, and had
6) Elizabeth Wingfield (c.1425-1497) m. Sir William Brandon, and had
7) Margaret Brandon m. Sir Gregory Lovell of Barton Bendish (1451-1505), and had
8) Sir Francis Lovell of Barton Bendish (d. 1552) m. Anne Ashby (d. 1539), and had
9) Dorothy Lovell (b. c.1530) m. Thomas Vernon, Heir of Stokesay Castle (c.1510-1556, descended from Henry IV), and had
10) Dorothy Vernon m. Humphrey Ludlow of Stokesay, and had
11) Elizabeth Ludlow m. Humphrey Hill of Hills Court, and had
12) Mary Hill m. Richard Chambre of Petton Hall (d. 1563), and had
13) George Chambre of Petton Hall (d. 1594) m. Judith Calcott (d. 1585), and had
14) Calcot Chambre of Williamscote (c.1573-1635) m. 1) Mary Villiers (c.1584-by 1611), and had
15) Mary Chambre (d. 1685) m. Edward Brabazon, 2nd Earl of Meath (c.1610-1675), and had
16) Lady Jane Brabazon m. Hon. Randal Moore of Ardee, and had
17) Mary Moore (1661-1713) m. William Ponsonby, 1st Viscount Duncannon
So Generations 1 thru 9 above are valid, as are Generations 13 thru 17. The problem is Generations 10 thru 12.
First off, Thomas Vernon, heir of Stokesay Castle (with several lines of descent from Edward I, including one thru Henry IV's illegitimate granddaughter Antigone of Lancaster) in Generation 9 above, has an entry in HOP
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/vernon-thomas-1532-56
The HOP bio mentions his son and heir Henry Vernon of Stokesay Castle was age seven at Thomas's death. I have the exact birthdate for Henry Vernon, 25 December (Christmas) 1548. HOP surmises that Thomas Vernon was of age when returned to Parliament in
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/lovell-sir-thomas-ii-1528-67descents, but I can' remember the specifics. Can you help?
Given that her son Henry Vernon of Stokesay Castle was born 25 Dec 1548, it's fair to estimate a birth for Dorothy (Lovell) Vernon of 1525-1530.
Calcot Chambre in Generation 14 above also has an entry in HOP, which estimates his birthdate as about 1573.
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1604-1629/member/chambre-calcot-1573-1635
So this descent is impossible chronologically. A lady (Dorothy Lovell Vernon) born about 1525-30 cannot be the great-great-great-grandmother(!!!) of a gentleman born about 1573.
Genealogics shows (and I also have in my data) Edward I descents for Mary Moore via Dorothy Vernon, wife of Humphrey Hill. I vaguely recall that there was an issue about the parentage of Dorothy Vernon which would have caused the loss of her Edward I
There was a discussion in this newsgroup back in 2008 about the first 14 generations of this descent. I missed that discussion, but I agree with the point Matthew Connolly made that Dorothy (Vernon) Ludlow - Generation 10 above - likely didn't exist,certainly not as a daughter of Thomas Vernon heir of Stokesay Castle and Dorothy Lovell:
https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/RqRAim7of-A/m/q8201Mg7HkoJll make a copy of the article the next time I have access to that work.
This pedigree from Geni.com, has Mary (Hill) Chambre (1510-1565) - Generation 12 above - as a daughter of John Hill of Hill Court (c.1490-1550) and his wife Anne.
https://www.geni.com/people/Maria-Chambre/6000000002061405002
I haven't researched the Hills of Hill Court, so I can't speak to the accuracy of the Geni.com pedigree. I do have some Chambres of Petton Hall in my database, and I notice that the Chambre family is covered in Burke's Irish Family Records (1976), so I'
the wife of the 2nd Marquess of Donegall.For some of the descendants of Letitia (Ponsonby) May, see the article on the May baronetcy in the Complete Baronetage. A bit of scandal: the 2nd Baronet had 4 children by a second wife before he actually married her, and one of those children became
Interesting. Eventually I'll add into my database Hon. Letitia Ponsonby and the May baronets of Mayfield.Brad,
Hope this helps!
Cheers, -----Brad
There is a baptism record in Cropredy Oxfordshire for Calcott Chambre 27th March 1574, also Richard Chambre left a will dated 20th January 1556/57 Petton, Salop and proved 21 May 1558 London.
On Tuesday, November 16, 2021 at 1:03:13 PM UTC-8, Andrew Z wrote:
Is the information above correct and are there any other Edward I descents that were missed?Dear Andrew,
I have William Ponsonby, 1st Viscount Duncannon (1659-1724) in my database. Yes, the Edward I descents you outline in your post are correct. All of the viscount's Edward I descents were through his mother Hon. Elizabeth (Foliot), Lady Ponsonby.
I have one further line of descent from Edward I for Lady Ponsonby which you did not outline. It is through her mother Anne (Strode) (Foliot), Countess of Roscommon.
Edward I had a dau:
1) Elizabeth, Countess of Hereford (1282-1316), who had
2) Lady Eleanor de Bohun, Countess of Ormond (c.1310-1363), who had
3) Lady Petronilla Butler, Lady Talbot (c.1335-1368), who had
4) Richard, 4th Lord Talbot (by 1361-1396), who had
5) Alice Talbot (c.1393-1436) m. 1) Sir Thomas Barre, and had
6) Elizabeth Barre (c.1414-1468) m. Sir Edmund Cornewall, and had
7) Thomas Cornewall of Burford (c.1431-aft.1472) m. Elizabeth Lenthall, and had
8) Sir Edmund Cornewall of Burford (c.1450-1489) m. Margaret Horde, and had 9) Anne Cornewall m. Peter Blount of Sodington Hall (c.1459-1527), and had 10) Thomas Blount of Sodington Hall (d. 1562) m. 1) Katherine Stanford, and had
11) Elizabeth Blount (c.1520-1582) m. William Clifton of Barrington Court, and had
12) Theophilia Clifton m. 1) Thomas Strode of Stoke-sub-Hamdon, and had
13) Anne Strode (1582-1652) m. 1) Henry, 1st Baron Folliott of Ballyshannon (1569-1622, descended from Edward I), and had
14) Hon. Elizabeth Foliot m. Sir John Ponsonby of Bessborough (1608-1678), and had
15) William Ponsonby, 1st Viscount Duncannon (1659-1724)
Hope this helps.
Cheers, -------Brad
Calcot Chambre in Generation 14 above also has an entry in HOP, which estimates his birthdate as about 1573.
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1604-1629/member/chambre-calcot-1573-1635
There is a baptism record in Cropredy Oxfordshire for Calcott Chambre 27th March 1574, also Richard Chambre left a will dated 20th January 1556/57 Petton, Salop and proved 21 May 1558 London.
cheers Guy
On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 5:46:20 PM UTC-8, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:1553, so born by 1532. His mother Anne (Ludlow) Vernon was born in 1482, and his parents were contracted to be married 26 September 1493, so I've estimated Thomas Vernon to be born about 1510. It might have been a little earlier. I don't have a marriage
Brad, can you refresh my memory on one aspect of Mary Moore's ancestry - and possible Edward I descents?Dear John,
Per Genealogics, the line of descent is as follows:
Edward I had a dau:
1) Elizabeth, Countess of Hereford (1282-1316), who had
2) William de Bohun, 1st Earl of Northampton (c.1309-1360), who had
3) Lady Elizabeth de Bohun, Countess of Arundel (c.1344-1385), who had
4) Lady Elizabeth Fitzalan (c.1370-1425) m. 3) Sir Robert Goushill, and had 5) Elizabeth Goushill (b. 1402) m. Sir Robert Wingfield, and had
6) Elizabeth Wingfield (c.1425-1497) m. Sir William Brandon, and had
7) Margaret Brandon m. Sir Gregory Lovell of Barton Bendish (1451-1505), and had
8) Sir Francis Lovell of Barton Bendish (d. 1552) m. Anne Ashby (d. 1539), and had
9) Dorothy Lovell (b. c.1530) m. Thomas Vernon, Heir of Stokesay Castle (c.1510-1556, descended from Henry IV), and had
10) Dorothy Vernon m. Humphrey Ludlow of Stokesay, and had
11) Elizabeth Ludlow m. Humphrey Hill of Hills Court, and had
12) Mary Hill m. Richard Chambre of Petton Hall (d. 1563), and had
13) George Chambre of Petton Hall (d. 1594) m. Judith Calcott (d. 1585), and had
14) Calcot Chambre of Williamscote (c.1573-1635) m. 1) Mary Villiers (c.1584-by 1611), and had
15) Mary Chambre (d. 1685) m. Edward Brabazon, 2nd Earl of Meath (c.1610-1675), and had
16) Lady Jane Brabazon m. Hon. Randal Moore of Ardee, and had
17) Mary Moore (1661-1713) m. William Ponsonby, 1st Viscount Duncannon
So Generations 1 thru 9 above are valid, as are Generations 13 thru 17. The problem is Generations 10 thru 12.
First off, Thomas Vernon, heir of Stokesay Castle (with several lines of descent from Edward I, including one thru Henry IV's illegitimate granddaughter Antigone of Lancaster) in Generation 9 above, has an entry in HOP
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/vernon-thomas-1532-56
The HOP bio mentions his son and heir Henry Vernon of Stokesay Castle was age seven at Thomas's death. I have the exact birthdate for Henry Vernon, 25 December (Christmas) 1548. HOP surmises that Thomas Vernon was of age when returned to Parliament in
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/lovell-sir-thomas-ii-1528-67descents, but I can' remember the specifics. Can you help?
Given that her son Henry Vernon of Stokesay Castle was born 25 Dec 1548, it's fair to estimate a birth for Dorothy (Lovell) Vernon of 1525-1530.
Calcot Chambre in Generation 14 above also has an entry in HOP, which estimates his birthdate as about 1573.
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1604-1629/member/chambre-calcot-1573-1635
So this descent is impossible chronologically. A lady (Dorothy Lovell Vernon) born about 1525-30 cannot be the great-great-great-grandmother(!!!) of a gentleman born about 1573.
Genealogics shows (and I also have in my data) Edward I descents for Mary Moore via Dorothy Vernon, wife of Humphrey Hill. I vaguely recall that there was an issue about the parentage of Dorothy Vernon which would have caused the loss of her Edward I
There was a discussion in this newsgroup back in 2008 about the first 14 generations of this descent. I missed that discussion, but I agree with the point Matthew Connolly made that Dorothy (Vernon) Ludlow - Generation 10 above - likely didn't exist,certainly not as a daughter of Thomas Vernon heir of Stokesay Castle and Dorothy Lovell:
https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/RqRAim7of-A/m/q8201Mg7HkoJll make a copy of the article the next time I have access to that work.
This pedigree from Geni.com, has Mary (Hill) Chambre (1510-1565) - Generation 12 above - as a daughter of John Hill of Hill Court (c.1490-1550) and his wife Anne.
https://www.geni.com/people/Maria-Chambre/6000000002061405002
I haven't researched the Hills of Hill Court, so I can't speak to the accuracy of the Geni.com pedigree. I do have some Chambres of Petton Hall in my database, and I notice that the Chambre family is covered in Burke's Irish Family Records (1976), so I'
the wife of the 2nd Marquess of Donegall.For some of the descendants of Letitia (Ponsonby) May, see the article on the May baronetcy in the Complete Baronetage. A bit of scandal: the 2nd Baronet had 4 children by a second wife before he actually married her, and one of those children became
Interesting. Eventually I'll add into my database Hon. Letitia Ponsonby and the May baronets of Mayfield.
Hope this helps!
Cheers, -----Brad
On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 10:33:26 PM UTC-5, Brad Verity wrote:in 1553, so born by 1532. His mother Anne (Ludlow) Vernon was born in 1482, and his parents were contracted to be married 26 September 1493, so I've estimated Thomas Vernon to be born about 1510. It might have been a little earlier. I don't have a
On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 5:46:20 PM UTC-8, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
Brad, can you refresh my memory on one aspect of Mary Moore's ancestry - and possible Edward I descents?Dear John,
Per Genealogics, the line of descent is as follows:
Edward I had a dau:
1) Elizabeth, Countess of Hereford (1282-1316), who had
2) William de Bohun, 1st Earl of Northampton (c.1309-1360), who had
3) Lady Elizabeth de Bohun, Countess of Arundel (c.1344-1385), who had
4) Lady Elizabeth Fitzalan (c.1370-1425) m. 3) Sir Robert Goushill, and had
5) Elizabeth Goushill (b. 1402) m. Sir Robert Wingfield, and had
6) Elizabeth Wingfield (c.1425-1497) m. Sir William Brandon, and had
7) Margaret Brandon m. Sir Gregory Lovell of Barton Bendish (1451-1505), and had
8) Sir Francis Lovell of Barton Bendish (d. 1552) m. Anne Ashby (d. 1539), and had
9) Dorothy Lovell (b. c.1530) m. Thomas Vernon, Heir of Stokesay Castle (c.1510-1556, descended from Henry IV), and had
10) Dorothy Vernon m. Humphrey Ludlow of Stokesay, and had
11) Elizabeth Ludlow m. Humphrey Hill of Hills Court, and had
12) Mary Hill m. Richard Chambre of Petton Hall (d. 1563), and had
13) George Chambre of Petton Hall (d. 1594) m. Judith Calcott (d. 1585), and had
14) Calcot Chambre of Williamscote (c.1573-1635) m. 1) Mary Villiers (c.1584-by 1611), and had
15) Mary Chambre (d. 1685) m. Edward Brabazon, 2nd Earl of Meath (c.1610-1675), and had
16) Lady Jane Brabazon m. Hon. Randal Moore of Ardee, and had
17) Mary Moore (1661-1713) m. William Ponsonby, 1st Viscount Duncannon
So Generations 1 thru 9 above are valid, as are Generations 13 thru 17. The problem is Generations 10 thru 12.
First off, Thomas Vernon, heir of Stokesay Castle (with several lines of descent from Edward I, including one thru Henry IV's illegitimate granddaughter Antigone of Lancaster) in Generation 9 above, has an entry in HOP
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/vernon-thomas-1532-56
The HOP bio mentions his son and heir Henry Vernon of Stokesay Castle was age seven at Thomas's death. I have the exact birthdate for Henry Vernon, 25 December (Christmas) 1548. HOP surmises that Thomas Vernon was of age when returned to Parliament
I descents, but I can' remember the specifics. Can you help?https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/lovell-sir-thomas-ii-1528-67
Given that her son Henry Vernon of Stokesay Castle was born 25 Dec 1548, it's fair to estimate a birth for Dorothy (Lovell) Vernon of 1525-1530.
Calcot Chambre in Generation 14 above also has an entry in HOP, which estimates his birthdate as about 1573.
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1604-1629/member/chambre-calcot-1573-1635
So this descent is impossible chronologically. A lady (Dorothy Lovell Vernon) born about 1525-30 cannot be the great-great-great-grandmother(!!!) of a gentleman born about 1573.
Genealogics shows (and I also have in my data) Edward I descents for Mary Moore via Dorothy Vernon, wife of Humphrey Hill. I vaguely recall that there was an issue about the parentage of Dorothy Vernon which would have caused the loss of her Edward
certainly not as a daughter of Thomas Vernon heir of Stokesay Castle and Dorothy Lovell:There was a discussion in this newsgroup back in 2008 about the first 14 generations of this descent. I missed that discussion, but I agree with the point Matthew Connolly made that Dorothy (Vernon) Ludlow - Generation 10 above - likely didn't exist,
I'll make a copy of the article the next time I have access to that work.https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/RqRAim7of-A/m/q8201Mg7HkoJ
This pedigree from Geni.com, has Mary (Hill) Chambre (1510-1565) - Generation 12 above - as a daughter of John Hill of Hill Court (c.1490-1550) and his wife Anne.
https://www.geni.com/people/Maria-Chambre/6000000002061405002
I haven't researched the Hills of Hill Court, so I can't speak to the accuracy of the Geni.com pedigree. I do have some Chambres of Petton Hall in my database, and I notice that the Chambre family is covered in Burke's Irish Family Records (1976), so
became the wife of the 2nd Marquess of Donegall.For some of the descendants of Letitia (Ponsonby) May, see the article on the May baronetcy in the Complete Baronetage. A bit of scandal: the 2nd Baronet had 4 children by a second wife before he actually married her, and one of those children
Interesting. Eventually I'll add into my database Hon. Letitia Ponsonby and the May baronets of Mayfield.
Hope this helps!
Cheers, -----BradI agree the chronology prevents the above line from being correct.
The sister (Hester) of Calcot Chambre [i.e., Chamber or Chambers] married a Wyllys and was ancestral to the Wyllys family of Connecticut.
Does the following work a little better (from page 342-43 of _Shropshire Visitations 1623_, volume 2?:
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=njp.32101072878885&view=1up&seq=71&skin=2021&q1=lutteley
1. Richard Grey, Lord Powys = Margaret Audley [Touchet]married Humphrey Hill (d. 1585) of Court of Hill (in Burford) ..."
2. Elizabeth [? Grey] = John Ludlow
3. Maurice Ludlow = Constance, da. of Sir Piers Griffith
4. William Ludlow = ____
5. Humphrey Ludlow = Dorothy Vernon
6. Elizabeth Ludlow (d. 1575) = Humphrey Hill (d. 1585) of Hills Court
7. Mary Hill m. Richard Chambre of Petton Hall (d. 1563)
8. George Chambre of Petton Hall (d. 1594) m. Judith Calcott (d. 1585)
9. Hester Chambre/ Chamber = Mr. Wyllys, whose son was Governor of Connecticut
The dates for Elizabeth Ludlow and her husband Humphrey Hill come from _Victoria History of the County of Shropshire_, vol. 10 (?), p. 16 (?), viewed only in snippet format:
"John Lyttelton may have sold Alcaston manor between between 1507 and 1532 to Humphrey Ludlow, although an interest in Alcaston and Henley was sold in 1552 by the earl of Oxford to John Stringfellow. Ludlow's daughter and heir Elizabeth (d. 1575)
https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_History_of_Shropshire/IwA2AQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=%22humphrey+ludlow%22+humphrey+hill+1585&dq=%22humphrey+ludlow%22+humphrey+hill+1585&printsec=frontcover
This still seems too tight, but might barely work, especially if Richard Chambre/ Chamber of Petton died early and right after marriage.
On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 5:31:48 AM UTC-8, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:Dorothy Strode married "Sir John Foliot"; 3) Jane Strode, married 2 January 1591/2 St Denis Church, Stoke-sub-Hampdon, George Bowerman of Isle Brewers; 4) Anne Strode, "not 18, 23 April 1595" [her father Thomas Strode's will].
Anne Strode is given by Burke's, and apparently CP is following this, as the daughter of a William Strode of Stoke-under-Hampden
See for example
http://books.google.com/books?id=1DEGAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA219&dq=%22John+King%22+of+Boyle+Abbey&lr=&as_brr=3Dear Will,
Frederick Arthur Crisp, the antiquarian who co-edited (eventually sole-edited) The Visitation of England & Wales series, compiled a pedigree for Strode of Stoke-sub-Hampdon in Fragmenta Genealogica Volume 8 (1902):
https://archive.org/details/fragmentagenealo08cris_0/page/132/mode/2up
Note there is no Sir William Strode of Stoke-sub-Hampdon. There are four daughters listed for Thomas Strode of Stoke-sub-Hampdon and his wife Theophilia Clifton; 1) Elizabeth Strode, married Richard Phillips [Phelips] of Corfe Mullen, Dorset; 2)
Elizabeth (Blount), Lady Clifton of Barrington Court, made her will 2 November 1580, proved 27 July 1582, and mentions "my son in law Thomas Strode, gent. my daughter Theophila Strode, John Strode, her son, Elizabeth Strode, her daughter, Johan Strode,her daughter":
https://www.geni.com/people/Theophilia-Strode/6000000059558367154Folliot.
Elizabeth Strode, wife of Richard Phelips of Corfe Mullen, was baptized 14 June 1575 St Denis Church, Stoke-sub-Hamdon:
https://www.geni.com/people/Richard-Phelips/6000000059558711824
I have her sister Anne Strode baptized 28 May 1582 St Denis Church, Stoke-sub-Hamdon. So she was born a year-and-a-half after her maternal grandmother Lady Clifton made out her will, which explains why she is not named in it.
We have parish register evidence for the existence of three of Thomas & Theophilia (Clifton) Strode's daughters: Elizabeth, Jane & Anne. There does not seem to be any parish register evidence for the fourth daughter Dorothy Strode, wife of Sir John
John Higgins and Robert O'Connor discussed this Dorothy Strode Folliot on this newsgroup back in 2005. I propose that Hutchins' Dorset is in error, with the first names of this Strode/Folliot marriage. Instead of 'Dorothy' Strode wife of Sir 'John'Foliot, it was rather Anne Strode, wife of Sir Henry Foliot.
I realize this is a leap, and definitive evidence needs to be uncovered. I'm unable in a short time to locate the Stoke-sub-Hamdon parish registers online. But they need to be searched for all entries in the 1570-1615 period for Strode. Also the 1613will of Anthony Parsons of Matlock, second husband of Theophilia (Clifton) Strode, and the 1616 will (proved 1621) of John Strode of Stoke-sub-Hamdon (c.1568-1621), son and heir of Thomas Strode & Theophilia Clifton, may provide further clues.
Anne Strode is given by Burke's, and apparently CP is following this, as the daughter of a William Strode of Stoke-under-Hampden
See for example
http://books.google.com/books?id=1DEGAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA219&dq=%22John+King%22+of+Boyle+Abbey&lr=&as_brr=3
I think that Anne was living but not yet 18 Apr 1595, which is when her father was buried, must iimply that there is either a will or an IPM which names the children from him.
John Higgins and Robert O'Connor discussed this Dorothy Strode Folliot on this newsgroup back in 2005. I propose that Hutchins' Dorset is in error, with the first names of this Strode/Folliot marriage. Instead of 'Dorothy' Strode wife of Sir 'John'Foliot, it was rather Anne Strode, wife of Sir Henry Foliot.
On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 9:30:19 AM UTC-8, Brad Verity wrote:Foliot, it was rather Anne Strode, wife of Sir Henry Foliot.
John Higgins and Robert O'Connor discussed this Dorothy Strode Folliot on this newsgroup back in 2005. I propose that Hutchins' Dorset is in error, with the first names of this Strode/Folliot marriage. Instead of 'Dorothy' Strode wife of Sir 'John'
I meant to link to the 2005 discussion I referred to above. Here it is: https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/qmx4DufPClE/m/rLBF69kXM8IJ
Thank you everybody for your contributions to this discussion so far! There may be some interesting possibilities to explore further.presumably the grandfather of Humphrey Hill of Hills Court).
I'll be a posting a longer response covering various topics later on, but in the meantime I just wanted to note that according to Burke's Landed Gentry of Ireland (1912), the father of Richard Chambre's wife, Mary Hill, was John Hill of Court of Hill (
https://archive.org/details/genealogicalhera00burkuoft/page/106/mode/1upI think Andrew's on the right track here. The 1958 edition of BLGI also shows that Mary, wife of Richard Chambré, was the daughter of John Hill of Court of Hill. And moving Mary's parentage back two generations should definitely eliminate the
All the best!
Andrew
On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 8:20:13 AM UTC-8, Andrew Z wrote:(presumably the grandfather of Humphrey Hill of Hills Court).
Thank you everybody for your contributions to this discussion so far! There may be some interesting possibilities to explore further.
I'll be a posting a longer response covering various topics later on, but in the meantime I just wanted to note that according to Burke's Landed Gentry of Ireland (1912), the father of Richard Chambre's wife, Mary Hill, was John Hill of Court of Hill
chronological problems. One difficulty, however, is that I'm not sure how many good dates we have for that line.https://archive.org/details/genealogicalhera00burkuoft/page/106/mode/1up
All the best!
AndrewI think Andrew's on the right track here. The 1958 edition of BLGI also shows that Mary, wife of Richard Chambré, was the daughter of John Hill of Court of Hill. And moving Mary's parentage back two generations should definitely eliminate the
On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 10:33:26 PM UTC-5, Brad Verity wrote
So this descent is impossible chronologically. A lady (Dorothy Lovell Vernon) born about 1525-30 cannot be the great-great-great-grandmother(!!!) of a gentleman born about 1573.
I've removed Sybilla Turpin from my database.
the wife of the 2nd Marquess of Donegall.For some of the descendants of Letitia (Ponsonby) May, see the article on the May baronetcy in the Complete Baronetage. A bit of scandal: the 2nd Baronet had 4 children by a second wife before he actually married her, and one of those children became
Interesting. Eventually I'll add into my database Hon. Letitia Ponsonby and the May baronets of Mayfield.
On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 3:25:22 PM UTC-5, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:Hill (presumably the grandfather of Humphrey Hill of Hills Court).
On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 8:20:13 AM UTC-8, Andrew Z wrote:
Thank you everybody for your contributions to this discussion so far! There may be some interesting possibilities to explore further.
I'll be a posting a longer response covering various topics later on, but in the meantime I just wanted to note that according to Burke's Landed Gentry of Ireland (1912), the father of Richard Chambre's wife, Mary Hill, was John Hill of Court of
chronological problems. One difficulty, however, is that I'm not sure how many good dates we have for that line.https://archive.org/details/genealogicalhera00burkuoft/page/106/mode/1up
All the best!
AndrewI think Andrew's on the right track here. The 1958 edition of BLGI also shows that Mary, wife of Richard Chambré, was the daughter of John Hill of Court of Hill. And moving Mary's parentage back two generations should definitely eliminate the
The Hill pedigree in Shropshire Vis., 1:244 shows that Humphrey Hill and Elizabeth Ludlow had daughter "Dorothea [Hill] uxor Gabryelis Chambers de Petton in com. Salop." Gabriel Chamber/s was a son of Richard Chamber/s and Mary Hill, so this was likelya cousin marriage.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=njp.32101075683563&view=1up&seq=302&skin=2021&q1=Dorothea%20uxor%20GabryelisI agree with John Brandon that the fact that Humphrey Hill and Elizabeth Ludlow had a daughter Dorothy married to Gabriel Chambers of Petton means that Mary Hill obviously cannot also be the daughter of Humphrey Hill and Elizabeth Ludlow, as in the
That seems to make it certain that Mary Hill, Gabriel's mother, was of an earlier generation or a different branch.
On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 1:43:21 PM UTC-8, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:Hill (presumably the grandfather of Humphrey Hill of Hills Court).
On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 3:25:22 PM UTC-5, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 8:20:13 AM UTC-8, Andrew Z wrote:
Thank you everybody for your contributions to this discussion so far! There may be some interesting possibilities to explore further.
I'll be a posting a longer response covering various topics later on, but in the meantime I just wanted to note that according to Burke's Landed Gentry of Ireland (1912), the father of Richard Chambre's wife, Mary Hill, was John Hill of Court of
chronological problems. One difficulty, however, is that I'm not sure how many good dates we have for that line.https://archive.org/details/genealogicalhera00burkuoft/page/106/mode/1up
All the best!
AndrewI think Andrew's on the right track here. The 1958 edition of BLGI also shows that Mary, wife of Richard Chambré, was the daughter of John Hill of Court of Hill. And moving Mary's parentage back two generations should definitely eliminate the
likely a cousin marriage.The Hill pedigree in Shropshire Vis., 1:244 shows that Humphrey Hill and Elizabeth Ludlow had daughter "Dorothea [Hill] uxor Gabryelis Chambers de Petton in com. Salop." Gabriel Chamber/s was a son of Richard Chamber/s and Mary Hill, so this was
descent which started this discussion.https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=njp.32101075683563&view=1up&seq=302&skin=2021&q1=Dorothea%20uxor%20Gabryelis
That seems to make it certain that Mary Hill, Gabriel's mother, was of an earlier generation or a different branch.I agree with John Brandon that the fact that Humphrey Hill and Elizabeth Ludlow had a daughter Dorothy married to Gabriel Chambers of Petton means that Mary Hill obviously cannot also be the daughter of Humphrey Hill and Elizabeth Ludlow, as in the
The Hill pedigree in the Shropshire Vis. mentioned above does not show Mary as a daughter of John Hill of Court of Hill (or show her anyplace in that pedigree). But the Chambers/Chambre pedigree on p. 99 of the same source does say that Mary, the wifeof Richard Chambers of Petton, was the daughter of John Hill of Court of Hill. Together with the BLGI references, that seems the best that we're going to be able to do. I suspect that someone simply confused the two Chambers/Hill marriage.
And this change also means that the Vernon connection, which was causing all the chronological problems, goes away.no use to us.
BTW Brad pointed out offline that the family of Hill of Court of Hill is covered (under the name of Hill-Lowe) in a BLG pedigree through the 1952 edition of BLG. But that pedigree is simply a straight male-line descent, with no daughters shown. So...of
On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 10:53:21 AM UTC-5, Johnny Brananas wrote:
Does the following work a little better (from page 342-43 of _Shropshire Visitations 1623_, volume 2?:
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=njp.32101072878885&view=1up&seq=71&skin=2021&q1=lutteley
married Humphrey Hill (d. 1585) of Court of Hill (in Burford) ..."1. Richard Grey, Lord Powys = Margaret Audley [Touchet]
2. Elizabeth [? Grey] = John Ludlow
3. Maurice Ludlow = Constance, da. of Sir Piers Griffith
4. William Ludlow = ____
5. Humphrey Ludlow = Dorothy Vernon
6. Elizabeth Ludlow (d. 1575) = Humphrey Hill (d. 1585) of Hills Court
7. Mary Hill m. Richard Chambre of Petton Hall (d. 1563)
8. George Chambre of Petton Hall (d. 1594) m. Judith Calcott (d. 1585)
9. Hester Chambre/ Chamber = Mr. Wyllys, whose son was Governor of Connecticut
The dates for Elizabeth Ludlow and her husband Humphrey Hill come from _Victoria History of the County of Shropshire_, vol. 10 (?), p. 16 (?), viewed only in snippet format:
"John Lyttelton may have sold Alcaston manor between between 1507 and 1532 to Humphrey Ludlow, although an interest in Alcaston and Henley was sold in 1552 by the earl of Oxford to John Stringfellow. Ludlow's daughter and heir Elizabeth (d. 1575)
despite a connection to Stokesay.https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_History_of_Shropshire/IwA2AQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=%22humphrey+ludlow%22+humphrey+hill+1585&dq=%22humphrey+ludlow%22+humphrey+hill+1585&printsec=frontcover
This still seems too tight, but might barely work, especially if Richard Chambre/ Chamber of Petton died early and right after marriage.Another version a few pages back in vol. 2 of the Visitation cuts out the Grey/ Audley Touchet descent and just gives:
Sr Will'm Ludlow of Stoake Say [Stokesay] in com. Salop Kt = ....
Moris Ludlow of Stoaks hay in com. Salop [shown as UNCLE of John who married Elizabeth Grey] = Constance (_Custance_) da. to Sr Peirs Griffith Kt.
Will'm Ludlow of Stoaks haye Esqr. = ....
Humfrey Ludlow. = Dorothy da. of Tho. Vernon.
Elizabeth = mar. to Humfry Hill of Hill Courte.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=njp.32101072878885&view=1up&seq=69&skin=2021&q1=stoaks%20haye
This would cut out the chronological difficulty of these Ludlows being descendants of Grey and Touchet, and could be possible. It seems clear that Dorothy Vernon here must be a different woman than the daughter of Thomas Vernon and Dorothy Lovell,
Also, as Andrew noted, the position in the Hill fam. of the daughter who married Chambers needs to be determined.
Maybe Sir Peirs Griffith could be investigated for any interesting lines?
2) I appreciated you letting us know that Sybilla Turpin was removed from your database. As per my earlier post/thread, I am hoping to explore additional corroborating evidence in regard to her parentage and that of Mary Villiers. Any new informationwould be very welcome and would added to that discussion.
After three anxious years, when every possible expedient to validate the marriage was tried without success, parliament in 1822 not only amended the law covering such cases but also (most unusually) made the change retrospective, in order toaccommodate Donegall." DIB: https://www.dib.ie/index.php/biography/chichester-george-augustus-a1646
As it happens, it was researching the Canadian descendants of the May Baronets that brought me to William Ponsonby, Sibella Turpin and the uncertainty surrounding Katherine Stradling. In case it might be of use, I'd be happy to share any informationthat I have regarding the descendants or ancestors of Sir (James) Edward May.
Andrew, Although I haven't found any baptism or burial date for Mary Villers/Chambre, she married Calcott 6th October 1597 in Cropredy. Calcotts' will dated 1628 and proved 1636 makes no mention of a wife so presumably Mary was already dead. Marys'father Edward, in his will of 1600 proved 1602 mentions his wife Mary. Perhaps this is the mother of Mary who married Calcott. She could be a subsequent wife but usually would be referred to as "my now wife". Edward also mentions his son in law Calcott
On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 8:51:24 AM UTC-8, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
Maybe Sir Peirs Griffith could be investigated for any interesting lines?
"Constance, daughter of Sir Pies Griffith" may be a visitation concoction. The Welsh Medieval Database at Family Search identifies Morris Ludlow's wife as Margred [or Margred] ferch Sir Griffith Vaughan (or Gruffudd Vychan) and gives several sources.The same identification is given in Wood's Sheriffs of Montgomeryshire [p. 370), which has quite a long biography of her father. There are also biographies of him in both ODNB and the Dictionary of Welsh Biography; the latter is here: https://biography.
Sir Griffith Vaughan appears on table Gwenwys 3 of Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies (although strangely his daughter is omitted from that table). He has an extensive Welsh genealogy but apparently no connections to English monarchs in that ancestry.
On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 10:23:14 AM UTC-8, Andrew Z wrote:would be very welcome and would added to that discussion.
2) I appreciated you letting us know that Sybilla Turpin was removed from your database. As per my earlier post/thread, I am hoping to explore additional corroborating evidence in regard to her parentage and that of Mary Villiers. Any new information
Andrew, I removed Sybilla from my database, but there remains the issue of John Nichols, in his 1807 'Pedigree of Gobion and Turpin, of Knaptoft', assigning to Sir George Turpin (1529-1583) and Frances Lane (descended from Edward III), "A daughter,married to .............."
In 2018, Thomas Bonnett suggested that this daughter was Elizabeth Turpin, first wife of Andrew Halford, Heir of Wistow Hall (c.1603-1657)born until 1603. His wife Elizabeth would not have been at least twenty years his senior.
https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/eGoeH_wZRD0/m/f-ICqr0WCAAJ
But the chronology is off for that identification. As any daughter of Sir George Turpin could not have been born later than 1583, the year of Sir George's death (his son and heir Sir William Turpin was born about 1558), while Andrew Halford was not
So the question remains as to the identity of the daughter of Sir George and Frances (Lane) Turpin. And another question - where to place Elizabeth (Turpin) Halford in the Turpin pedigree (Nichols doesn't include her, nor make any mention of a Turpin-Halford marriage) - also arises.
[snip]accommodate Donegall." DIB: https://www.dib.ie/index.php/biography/chichester-george-augustus-a1646
After three anxious years, when every possible expedient to validate the marriage was tried without success, parliament in 1822 not only amended the law covering such cases but also (most unusually) made the change retrospective, in order to
Wow, a fascinating story - thank you for sharing. I don't know enough about the reign of George IV, and all of the politics involved in it, to place this 1822 amendment in an historical perspective. But clearly the Chichester family was influential andimportant, for enough generations, that the 2nd Marquess of Donegall could be accommodated by Parliament in such a way. I'm surprised the ODNB doesn't have an entry for the 2nd marquess - it seems to me that he deserves one, at least for this 1822
that I have regarding the descendants or ancestors of Sir (James) Edward May.As it happens, it was researching the Canadian descendants of the May Baronets that brought me to William Ponsonby, Sibella Turpin and the uncertainty surrounding Katherine Stradling. In case it might be of use, I'd be happy to share any information
Thank you for this offer - I, for one, may well take you up on it when the time comes to get the May family into my database.father Edward, in his will of 1600 proved 1602 mentions his wife Mary. Perhaps this is the mother of Mary who married Calcott. She could be a subsequent wife but usually would be referred to as "my now wife". Edward also mentions his son in law Calcott
On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 12:06:38 PM UTC-8, Guy Vincent wrote:
Andrew, Although I haven't found any baptism or burial date for Mary Villers/Chambre, she married Calcott 6th October 1597 in Cropredy. Calcotts' will dated 1628 and proved 1636 makes no mention of a wife so presumably Mary was already dead. Marys'
Guy, Mary (Villiers) Chambre was dead by 1611, as Calcot Chambre married his second wife Lucy Gobard (descended from Edward III) in September of that year. Lucy (Gobard) Chambre died 28 August 1622, six years before Calcot made out his will, thus nomention of a wife in that document.
I agree with John Higgins that, despite the Villiers pedigree in the 1619 Visitation of Leicestershire, the strongest likelihood is that Edward Villiers of Hothorpe Hall had only the one wife, Mary Fisher (who married 2ndly, Ralph Kettell, president ofTrinity College Oxford), and that she was the mother of all three of his daughters and co-heiresses, including Mary (Villiers) Chambre. I've adjusted my database accordingly.
The same identification is given in Wood's Sheriffs of Montgomeryshire [p. 370), which has quite a long biography of her father. There are also biographies of him in both ODNB and the Dictionary of Welsh Biography; the latter is here: https://biography.On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 8:51:24 AM UTC-8, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 3:22:34 PM UTC-8, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
Maybe Sir Peirs Griffith could be investigated for any interesting lines?
"Constance, daughter of Sir Pies Griffith" may be a visitation concoction. The Welsh Medieval Database at Family Search identifies Morris Ludlow's wife as Margred [or Margred] ferch Sir Griffith Vaughan (or Gruffudd Vychan) and gives several sources.
his research can open up a lot of medieval Welsh ancestry for the descendants of Gov. George Wyllys of Connecticut (1590-1645).Sir Griffith Vaughan appears on table Gwenwys 3 of Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies (although strangely his daughter is omitted from that table). He has an extensive Welsh genealogy but apparently no connections to English monarchs in that ancestry.Thank you for following up, John, on identifying the father of Morris Ludlow's wife. As these individuals are not descended from Edward I, they fall outside my scope of research, and outside my wheelhouse actually. But your expertise with Bartrum and
https://museumofcthistory.org/2015/08/george-wyllys/Thanks Brad, I'd forgotten about the Gobard marriage. I've just had a look through Arthur Darcys' will of 1560 and there is no mention of an illegitimate daughter Frances who in previous discussion has been considerd the Frances who married Peter Gobard.
Cheers, -----Brad
On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 10:23:14 AM UTC-8, Andrew Z wrote:Trinity College Oxford), and that she was the mother of all three of his daughters and co-heiresses, including Mary (Villiers) Chambre. I've adjusted my database accordingly.
I agree with John Higgins that, despite the Villiers pedigree in the 1619 Visitation of Leicestershire, the strongest likelihood is that Edward Villiers of Hothorpe Hall had only the one wife, Mary Fisher (who married 2ndly, Ralph Kettell, president of
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