Dear group,
First of all, I’d like to say that the collective (and individual) level of knowledge and expertise of this group is incredible – thank you all for your contributions over the years.
I was hoping to build on Brad Verity’s earlier research and corroborate the resulting Genealogics entry that shows Edward Villiers’ first wife, Sibella Turpin as the daughter of Sir George Turpin, MP and Frances Lane, and as the mother of Edward’s
eldest daughter, Mary Villiers/Chambré.
https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00721957&tree=LEO
Also, I believe that the Sibella Turpin’s date of death as per Genealogics cannot be 1624, as it as the date of death of Edward Villers’ second wife, Mary.
There was an excellent discussion sometime ago during which it was determined that since the Earl of Bathurst is descended from Edward Villiers’ youngest daughter from a different wife, his potential Edward III descent through Sibella Turpin was
removed and she was not explored further.
https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/eGoeH_wZRD0/m/f-ICqr0WCAAJ
Excerpts from Brad’s original post in regard to Sibella Turpin being the daughter Sir George Turpin, MP:
1)“Per the Villiers pedigree in the 1619 Visitation of Leicesteshire, the wife of Edward Villiers of Hothorpe Hall was "Sibell Da. of --- Turpin sister to Sr George Turpin Kt"
2)“It is chronologically impossible for Sibella Turpin to be the daughter of a man who died in 1530, and in turn be the mother of girls who were returned as ages 16, 8 & 7 in their father's IPM taken in 2 James II [1604-05]”
3)“Instead, it would seem that Sibella should be the married, unnamed daughter that Nichols assigns in his pedigree to George Turpin & Frances Lane.”
4)“Since Sibella Turpin bore her eldest daughter Mary Villiers in about 1589, she was likely born in the latter half of the 1560s, making her chronologically a daughter of Sir George Turpin (b. 1529), rather than of Sir William Turpin (b. c.1558).”
Excerpts from the subsequent discussion that indicate that Mary Villiers was the daughter of Edward Villiers’ first wife:
1)[Brian Hessick] “in the will of Edward Villiers of Hothorpe, Northamptonshire proven 5 May 1602 (PROB 11/99/324) he mentions Mary, his wife, is the mother of his younger daughters, Jane and Elizabeth”
2)[Brad Verity] “The will seems to make it clear that Edward had two wives, and that his daughters Jane & Elizabeth were from his second wife Mary. That helps to explain the age gap between Edward's eldest daughter Mary (16), and the other daughters
Jane (8) and Elizabeth (7), as returned in his IPM.” “I was just going by Brian's statement that Edward Villiers in his will mentioned that his wife Mary was the mother of his younger daughters Jane and Elizabeth. I assumed that meant that the eldest
daughter was from an earlier wife, presumably the Turpin one.”
3)[Ted Garway-Heath] “Mary, the second wife of Edward Villiers, was the daughter of 'Leonarde Coxe, widow, of Garsington' (PCC 1611).” “in the Will of Leonard Coxe and associated documents…Jane Dinham wife of John Dinham and Elizabeth Bathurst
wife of George Bathurst relatives of said deceased” [According to HOP, Calcot Chambré remarried by September 1611, so it is possible that Mary Villiers would have not have been alive at the time this was written and thus not mentioned as a relative,
although she would have been survived by her daughter.]
Additionally, I’d like to share some other information that wasn’t mentioned/available at the time of the original discussion:
1)The Turpin pedigree commissioned in 1564 by Sir George Turpin does not show him having a sister nor a daughter. However, it is possible that the daughter was born in the late 1560s, after the pedigree was commissioned (
https://www.le.ac.uk/lahs/
downloads/1961-62/1961-62 (37) 1-6 Steer.pdf).
2)According to Founder’s Kin by G.D Squibb, “it was discovered that Elizabeth Bathurst was not the daughter of Edward Villiers by Mary (or Sibella) Turpin, but by his second wife. The credit for this discovery seems to belong to Francis Townsend,
Windsor Herald, for among his papers are some observations on the 1729 pedigree, with an argument to show that the pedigree was not only unsupported by the more ancient accounts of the Villiers and Turpin families, but that the statements in it were
nearly, if not absolutely, impossible. The matter was considered by the Chapter of the College of Arms, and it was ordered on 7 July 1836 that the pedigree registered by Henry Pye in 1729 and by Edward Thomas Walker in 1801 be cancelled and the true
pedigree recorded…Coll. Arm. MSS. Chapter Book X, pp.238-9; 2 L2, pp. 175-6. 291-3; 3 L2, pg. 123.” (
https://archive.org/details/founderskinprivi0000squi/page/95/mode/1up?q=turpin&view=theater)
3)In the preface to the Chronicle of Calais, it is noted that Nichol’s Turpin pedigree required some corrections; however, since the focus of the discussion was the origin of Richard Turpyn, it’s unknown exactly what else was amended. “In the copy
of Nichols's Leicestershire in the College of Arms, the late Francis Townsend, esq. Windsor herald, has drawn his pen through the name of Richard Turpyn the herald, thus apparently adopting the statement of Le Neve mentioned in the next page. Mr.
Townsend has also in the same place made the following corrections : for sir William Turpin, died 1525, read William Turpyn esquire, died 1523; the death of John, for "June 18, 1530," in 1528-9 (without altering the month) ; his son William, born Sept.
30, 1527, not Sept. 1, 1529” (
https://archive.org/details/calaischronicle00camduoft/page/n21/mode/2up)
4)It’s also interesting to note that according to the same source “The main authority for the Turpyn pedigree is not the Leicestershire Visitation of 1619, but Vincent's Leicester, 217.” This refers to the Vincent Collection held by the College of
Arms (
https://aim25.com/cgi-bin/vcdf/detail?coll_id=19905&inst_id=153&nv1=search&nv2=basic)
Based on the above, I believe the sources below could potentially help corroborate Sibella Turpin’s Genealogics entry:
1)The probate of Edward Villiers (PROB 11/99/324,
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1H8LidOAjg4OKbFr9Z6TCsIsFzlyRO-kW&authuser=azwindsor%40gmail.com&usp=drive_fs ). Regrettably, I am unable to read chancery hand accurately yet.
2)Edward Villiers’ IPM (Inq. 2. Jas. I, n. 137 as per The History of Market Harborough)
3)Pat. 33, Hen. VIII., n. 7. (cited in The History of Market Harborough)
4)The Turpyn pedigree from the Vincent Collection (held by the College of Arms, with a more detailed index for it to be found in the following book: Catalogue of Manuscripts in the College of Arms: Collections, Volume 1, London, 1988)
5)Relevant College of Arms documents (such as Francis Townsend notes on the Turpin pedigree or those relating to the 1836 decision)
6)The probate or IPM of Sir George Turpin (if a copy is available)
7)Parish registers relating to Sibella Turpin, Mary Villiers and Edward Villiers’ marriages (I haven’t been able to find any so far).
Any comments or help accessing/interpreting these documents (or any others) would be very much appreciated.
Many thanks in advance!
Andrew
--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)