On Sunday, May 31, 2020 at 7:20:33 PM UTC-4, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:

On 01-Jun-20 9:13 AM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:

sexta-feira, 22 de Maio de 2020 às 02:01:23 UTC+1, John Higgins escreveu:

On Thursday, May 21, 2020 at 4:29:11 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:

sexta-feira, 22 de Maio de 2020 às 00:14:32 UTC+1, John Higgins escreveu:

On Thursday, May 21, 2020 at 12:26:10 PM UTC-7, psbu...@hotmail.com wrote:

James Cudworth is an ancestor of mine found on the Descendants of Charlemagne Gateway list. But a seemingly cogent criticism of Douglas Richardson's idetification of Cudworth's mother, Mary Machell (who married Ralph Cudworth), as the daughter of

Mary Lewknor and Matthew Machell, appeared first in a book by Adrienne Boaz in 2014, and then had a WikiTree project assigned a couple of years ago. Now I find that Gary Boyd Roberts continues with the identification in his latest "Royal Descents of 900
Immigrants" book, though changing the Royal connection somewhat, it still runs through Mary Lewknor

Is anyone up on the status of this dispute with Douglas Richardson's identication of the parentage of Mary Machell with her mother being named as Mary Lewknor, a Royal Descendant of Edward I (according to GBR?)

This matter has been discussed at length a number of times in this group. There are strongly held opinions on both sides. My personal opinion FWIW continues to be that neither alternative for the parentage of Mary Machell has been sufficiently

proved.

The Edward I descent for Mary Machell in RD900 is exactly the same one that was published way back in 1993 in RD500. The evidence for the descent is also essentially the same as in it was in 1993, although slightly re-characterized in subsequent

editions. The key piece of evidence seems to be "research by Debrett Ancestry Research commissioned by Miss Jane E. Grunwell", first cited in 1993. It would be interesting to know who has actually SEEN this research. The only "evidence" added since 1993
is the mention, first made in RD600 in 2004, of a "forthcoming article" by Paul Reed that is still "forthcoming" more than 15 years later. GBR should know better than to keep citing this "article".

It would certainly be useful if someone could write an article on the subject actually describing the evidence in the matter. But, after all these years, that seems unlikely to happen...

Reed noted in https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/ZPJm_zsEDfk/PmPugptyj8IJ that, instead of writing an article, he was considering creating a Wiki. Unfortunately, that's not happened yet.

Yes it is unfortunate - whether the wait for the article is 8 years or "more than 15"...

Thing is, 8 years ago, Paul Reed was no longer considering writing an article, he was considering creating a wiki, though I see little point in creating a wiki dedicated merely to this connection.

Paul Reed was one of the most valued contributors to this newsgroup, but
I think you will find that nowadays he has other fish to fry apart from
very infrequent forays here. He is a man of talent and expertise in
areas beyond medieval genealogy.

Peter Stewart

Evidently this controversy continues... does anyone have an update for this disputed parentage?

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On Thursday, May 21, 2020 at 7:14:32 PM UTC-4, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:

On Thursday, May 21, 2020 at 12:26:10 PM UTC-7, psbu...@hotmail.com wrote: The only "evidence" added since 1993 is the mention, first made in RD600 in 2004, of a "forthcoming article" by Paul Reed that is still "forthcoming" more than 15 years later. GBR should know better than to keep citing this "article".

GBR had mentioned forthcoming articles of Paul C. Reed in his RD600 for several gateways; unfortunately, these "forthcoming articles" have been forthcoming by Reed for 16 plus years and longer to suggest an opinion, but not to prove or confirm one
position or another. In other words, these forthcoming articles would simply summarize the speculative opinions of Paul C. Reed. I know of some genealogists still awaiting for his speculative article on the "suggestion" that there was a different John
Throckmorton (d. 1684) than the one in RD600 who immigrated to Salem, MA and Providence, RI. That basically sums up any type of evidence you would get from Paul C. Reed.

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On Thursday, November 4, 2021 at 11:34:43 AM UTC-4, Lionheart wrote:

On Thursday, May 21, 2020 at 7:14:32 PM UTC-4, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:

On Thursday, May 21, 2020 at 12:26:10 PM UTC-7, psbu...@hotmail.com wrote: The only "evidence" added since 1993 is the mention, first made in RD600 in 2004, of a "forthcoming article" by Paul Reed that is still "forthcoming" more than 15 years later. GBR should know better than to keep citing this "article".

GBR had mentioned forthcoming articles of Paul C. Reed in his RD600 for several gateways; unfortunately, these "forthcoming articles" have been forthcoming by Reed for 16 plus years and longer to suggest an opinion, but not to prove or confirm one

position or another. In other words, these forthcoming articles would simply summarize the speculative opinions of Paul C. Reed. I know of some genealogists still awaiting for his speculative article on the "suggestion" that there was a different John
Throckmorton (d. 1684) than the one in RD600 who immigrated to Salem, MA and Providence, RI. That basically sums up any type of evidence you would get from Paul C. Reed.

A little further information on Mary, widow of Rev. Ralph Cudworth, who married (2nd) Dr. John Stoughton.

Doug's _Plantagenet Ancestry_ says Dr. Stoughton's "wife, Mary, was living in December 1634."

An article from _Transactions of the Congregational Historical Society_, vol. 6 (1913/15), says that Mary Stoughton was mentioned as very ill in early April 1634, and that "[s]he died before 4th August of that year."

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=iau.31858044936650&view=1up&seq=104&skin=2021&q1=machell

The article also mentions Dr. Stoughton's receipt in 1634 of a letter from Sir Thomas Wroth of Petherton Park, Somersetshire. Perhaps interesting because Dorothy (Wroth) Lewknor, wife of Edward Lewknor, mid-1500s, had a daughter married to Mathew
Machell.

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