Hello,

If someone has the book "The Heraldry of Foreigners in England 1400-1700", please could tell me what information brings about the Guevara family.

I apologize for my poor English.

Best regards,

Ivan

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On Sunday, October 31, 2021 at 4:49:11 PM UTC-4, ivanr...@gmail.com wrote:

Hello,

If someone has the book "The Heraldry of Foreigners in England 1400-1700", please could tell me what information brings about the Guevara family.

I apologize for my poor English.

Best regards,

Ivan

Hello,

It turns out there is a Guevara of Stenigot family listed in Lincolnshire Pedigrees, starting with Francisco Velez de Guevara, born at "Segusa" in the province of Biscaya, who died at Stenigot in 192/3. The arms are given as "Or, three bendlets
ermine."
The Lincolnshire Pedigrees is available in Google Books.

I wonder what the new book adds for this family.

There is also an article on them
The Guevaras of Stenigot: Spanish Squires in Tudor Lincolnshire
by DICKINS, BRUCE
in The Bulletin of Hispanic Studies1960 / 10 Vol. 37; Iss. 4




J. Sardina

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On Sunday, October 31, 2021 at 4:49:11 PM UTC-4, ivanr...@gmail.com wrote:

Hello,

If someone has the book "The Heraldry of Foreigners in England 1400-1700", please could tell me what information brings about the Guevara family.

I apologize for my poor English.

Best regards,

Ivan

Hello,

Following on Francis, there is another article mentioning Catherine Willoughby and it says that she was a Francis de Guevara's first cousins, their mother Ines and Maria de Salinas, being sisters.

The article is WOMEN, REFORM AND COMMUNITY IN EARLY MODERN and is available through Google books.

There are a couple of references to Francis de Guevara.

J. Sardina

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Sunday, October 31, 2021 at 4:49:11 PM UTC-4, ivanr...@gmail.com wrote:

Hello,

If someone has the book "The Heraldry of Foreigners in England 1400-1700", please could tell me what information brings about the Guevara family.

I apologize for my poor English.

Best regards,

Ivan

Hello,

I thought i had seen something about the Salinas before.

There was a discussion already about Maria de Salinas in this group some years ago
under
"Maria de Salinas, Baroness Willoughby de Eresby."


J. Sardina

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Sunday, October 31, 2021 at 1:49:11 PM UTC-7, ivanr...@gmail.com wrote:

If someone has the book "The Heraldry of Foreigners in England 1400-1700", please could tell me what information brings about the Guevara family.

Hello Ivan,

Its information on the family is found on page 341. It says:

"Velez de Guevara, Francisco
Francisco Velez de Guevara was one of the sons of John Velez de Guevara and Ynez de Albornoz, and grandson of Nicolas Velez de Guevara of Segura in the province of Guypuscoa, Spain, knight of St iago, and his wife Gracia de Yarez. He came to England in
1544. By his second wife Anne, dau. of John Egerton of Willoughby, Lincs, he had, (with other issue) Sir John Guevara of Stanigot (Stenigot), Lincs, who married Anne, dau. of Robert Sanderson. As John Veles de Guevara, he obtained confirmation of his
arms and crest and gentility 18 March 1604/5 from William Segar, Garter, and William Camden, Clarenceaux. This family dropped Velez and kept only the name Guevara."

There then follows a long accounting of instances of documents that give the arms and crests of the family (most of which I am unable to see on Google Books).

The Arms are:
Quarterly, 1 & 4, Or three bendlets Ermine, 2 & 3, Gules five watercress leaves in saltire Argent.

taf

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El domingo, 31 de octubre de 2021 a la(s) 21:02:24 UTC-3, J. Sardina escribió:

On Sunday, October 31, 2021 at 4:49:11 PM UTC-4, ivanr...@gmail.com wrote:

Hello,

If someone has the book "The Heraldry of Foreigners in England 1400-1700", please could tell me what information brings about the Guevara family.

I apologize for my poor English.

Best regards,

Ivan

Hello,

I thought i had seen something about the Salinas before.

There was a discussion already about Maria de Salinas in this group some years ago
under
"Maria de Salinas, Baroness Willoughby de Eresby."

J. Sardina

Hello,
Thank you very much for your answer. I'll look for the Bruce Dickins article. Lincolnshire Pedigrees I was able to consult it, some time ago. Indeed, Francisco Velez de Guevara was born in Segura, province of Guipúzcoa (at that time all Basques were
known as Biscayns). Francisco Velez de Guevara was the brother of my ancestor. Essentially I was with that same doubt, that I would add about this family regarding The Lincolnshire Pedigrees ...
I will also look for the discussions about María de Salinas in the group, and her article about her that you indicated to me.
Again, thank you very much.
Best regards,
Ivan R

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On Sunday, October 31, 2021 at 8:35:01 PM UTC-4, taf wrote:

On Sunday, October 31, 2021 at 1:49:11 PM UTC-7, ivanr...@gmail.com wrote:

If someone has the book "The Heraldry of Foreigners in England 1400-1700", please could tell me what information brings about the Guevara family.

Hello Ivan,

Its information on the family is found on page 341. It says:

"Velez de Guevara, Francisco
Francisco Velez de Guevara was one of the sons of John Velez de Guevara and Ynez de Albornoz, and grandson of Nicolas Velez de Guevara of Segura in the province of Guypuscoa, Spain, knight of St iago, and his wife Gracia de Yarez. He came to England in

1544. By his second wife Anne, dau. of John Egerton of Willoughby, Lincs, he had, (with other issue) Sir John Guevara of Stanigot (Stenigot), Lincs, who married Anne, dau. of Robert Sanderson. As John Veles de Guevara, he obtained confirmation of his
arms and crest and gentility 18 March 1604/5 from William Segar, Garter, and William Camden, Clarenceaux. This family dropped Velez and kept only the name Guevara."

There then follows a long accounting of instances of documents that give the arms and crests of the family (most of which I am unable to see on Google Books).

The Arms are:
Quarterly, 1 & 4, Or three bendlets Ermine, 2 & 3, Gules five watercress leaves in saltire Argent.

taf

According to the biography of Nicolas de Guevara at the Real Academy,

https://dbe.rah.es/biografias/70448/nicolas-guevara

Nicolas was the son of Pedro de Guevara, himself an illegitimate son of the 1st count of Oñate, Íñigo de Guevara.

J. Sardina

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On Sunday, October 31, 2021 at 8:35:01 PM UTC-4, taf wrote:

On Sunday, October 31, 2021 at 1:49:11 PM UTC-7, ivanr...@gmail.com wrote:

If someone has the book "The Heraldry of Foreigners in England 1400-1700", please could tell me what information brings about the Guevara family.

Hello Ivan,

Its information on the family is found on page 341. It says:

"Velez de Guevara, Francisco
Francisco Velez de Guevara was one of the sons of John Velez de Guevara and Ynez de Albornoz, and grandson of Nicolas Velez de Guevara of Segura in the province of Guypuscoa, Spain, knight of St iago, and his wife Gracia de Yarez. He came to England in

1544. By his second wife Anne, dau. of John Egerton of Willoughby, Lincs, he had, (with other issue) Sir John Guevara of Stanigot (Stenigot), Lincs, who married Anne, dau. of Robert Sanderson. As John Veles de Guevara, he obtained confirmation of his
arms and crest and gentility 18 March 1604/5 from William Segar, Garter, and William Camden, Clarenceaux. This family dropped Velez and kept only the name Guevara."

There then follows a long accounting of instances of documents that give the arms and crests of the family (most of which I am unable to see on Google Books).

The Arms are:
Quarterly, 1 & 4, Or three bendlets Ermine, 2 & 3, Gules five watercress leaves in saltire Argent.

taf

Very interesting,

There Spanish Archives online at pares.mcu.es do have some information about Nicolas Velez de Guevara of Segura. andsome of the documents are online.

For example,

Supplied title: Merced de registros de Segura (Guipúzcoa) al comendador Nicolás Guevara.

Reference number:CCA,CED,5,80,5

Date of creation:1501-03-22 , Granada


Reference code:ES.47161.AGS//CCA,CED,5,80,5


Name of the creator(s):Cámara de Castilla (España)

Content and StructureScope and content: Al comendador Nicolás Guevara, contino de la casa real, haciendo merced de los registros, protocolos y otras escrituras de los escribanos de Segura (Guipúzcoa) Pedro García de Aguirre y Juan de Jáuregui,
fallecidos.

He is shown as comendador, I guess of the order of Santiago, and as "Contino" of the royal house.

J Sardina

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El domingo, 31 de octubre de 2021 a la(s) 22:33:11 UTC-3, J. Sardina escribió:

On Sunday, October 31, 2021 at 8:35:01 PM UTC-4, taf wrote:

On Sunday, October 31, 2021 at 1:49:11 PM UTC-7, ivanr...@gmail.com wrote:

If someone has the book "The Heraldry of Foreigners in England 1400-1700", please could tell me what information brings about the Guevara family.

Hello Ivan,

Its information on the family is found on page 341. It says:

"Velez de Guevara, Francisco
Francisco Velez de Guevara was one of the sons of John Velez de Guevara and Ynez de Albornoz, and grandson of Nicolas Velez de Guevara of Segura in the province of Guypuscoa, Spain, knight of St iago, and his wife Gracia de Yarez. He came to England

in 1544. By his second wife Anne, dau. of John Egerton of Willoughby, Lincs, he had, (with other issue) Sir John Guevara of Stanigot (Stenigot), Lincs, who married Anne, dau. of Robert Sanderson. As John Veles de Guevara, he obtained confirmation of his
arms and crest and gentility 18 March 1604/5 from William Segar, Garter, and William Camden, Clarenceaux. This family dropped Velez and kept only the name Guevara."

There then follows a long accounting of instances of documents that give the arms and crests of the family (most of which I am unable to see on Google Books).

The Arms are:
Quarterly, 1 & 4, Or three bendlets Ermine, 2 & 3, Gules five watercress leaves in saltire Argent.

taf

According to the biography of Nicolas de Guevara at the Real Academy,

https://dbe.rah.es/biografias/70448/nicolas-guevara

Nicolas was the son of Pedro de Guevara, himself an illegitimate son of the 1st count of Oñate, Íñigo de Guevara.

J. Sardina

That's right, Nicolás was Comendador of the order of Santiago.
His affiliation as the son of Pedro de Guevara, illegitimate son of Íñigo Vélez de Guevara, 1st Count of Oñate, is incorrect. Salazar y Castro gave this affiliation and from then on all the authors repeated the error.
It is highly probable that Salazar y Castro inferred this affiliation by following the possession of the Ameyugo and Tuyo sites. These places belonged to Constanza de Ayala, and she gives them in inheritance to a sister of Íñigo, who maintains lawsuits
for the possession of her. Indeed, in one of her will, Íñigo leaves the places of Ameyugo and Tuyo to Pedro, his natural son. But it seems that he never had actual possession.
On the other hand, Commander Nicolás de Guevara took possession of these places by exchange with Constanza de Guevara, Íñigo Velez de Guevara's niece, and not by inheritance. In any case, this purchase had its conflicts, since for a few years the
Velascos appear as co-owners, and there were lawsuits between the heirs of the Comendador and the Velascos for the possession of these places.

In PARES a parchment has been digitized that contains a power of attorney granted in London by Francisco Velez de Guevara for his brother Diego Velez de Guevara, for a lawsuit that they litigated with the Constable Bernardino de Velasco for the
possession of Ameyugo:
Titulo nombre atribuido:Carta de poder realizada por Cristóbal Dowe, notario público de Londres (Gran Bretaña), a favor de Juan Vélez de Guevara, vecino de Ameyugo (Burgos), en relación a un pleito litigado por éste con Bernardino de Velasco,
Condestable de Castilla, y su mujer doña Juana, sobre la posesión de la villa de Ameyugo (Burgos) y su término
Signatura:PERGAMINOS,CARPETA,153,7
Fecha creación:1546 , Londres (Gran Bretaña)
Nivel de descripción:Unidad Documental Simple
Código de referencia:ES.47186.ARCHV//PERGAMINOS,CARPETA,153,7

Ivan

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For posterity and readers, here is the relevant page in Linc Ped

https://books.google.com/books?id=aPcMAAAAIAAJ&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&pg=PA433#v=onepage&q&f=false

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On Sunday, October 31, 2021 at 11:10:34 PM UTC-4, Ivan R wrote:

El domingo, 31 de octubre de 2021 a la(s) 22:33:11 UTC-3, J. Sardina escribió:

On Sunday, October 31, 2021 at 8:35:01 PM UTC-4, taf wrote:

On Sunday, October 31, 2021 at 1:49:11 PM UTC-7, ivanr...@gmail.com wrote:

If someone has the book "The Heraldry of Foreigners in England 1400-1700", please could tell me what information brings about the Guevara family.

Hello Ivan,

Its information on the family is found on page 341. It says:

"Velez de Guevara, Francisco
Francisco Velez de Guevara was one of the sons of John Velez de Guevara and Ynez de Albornoz, and grandson of Nicolas Velez de Guevara of Segura in the province of Guypuscoa, Spain, knight of St iago, and his wife Gracia de Yarez. He came to

England in 1544. By his second wife Anne, dau. of John Egerton of Willoughby, Lincs, he had, (with other issue) Sir John Guevara of Stanigot (Stenigot), Lincs, who married Anne, dau. of Robert Sanderson. As John Veles de Guevara, he obtained confirmation
of his arms and crest and gentility 18 March 1604/5 from William Segar, Garter, and William Camden, Clarenceaux. This family dropped Velez and kept only the name Guevara."

There then follows a long accounting of instances of documents that give the arms and crests of the family (most of which I am unable to see on Google Books).

The Arms are:
Quarterly, 1 & 4, Or three bendlets Ermine, 2 & 3, Gules five watercress leaves in saltire Argent.

taf

According to the biography of Nicolas de Guevara at the Real Academy,

https://dbe.rah.es/biografias/70448/nicolas-guevara

Nicolas was the son of Pedro de Guevara, himself an illegitimate son of the 1st count of Oñate, Íñigo de Guevara.

J. Sardina

That's right, Nicolás was Comendador of the order of Santiago.
His affiliation as the son of Pedro de Guevara, illegitimate son of Íñigo Vélez de Guevara, 1st Count of Oñate, is incorrect. Salazar y Castro gave this affiliation and from then on all the authors repeated the error.
It is highly probable that Salazar y Castro inferred this affiliation by following the possession of the Ameyugo and Tuyo sites. These places belonged to Constanza de Ayala, and she gives them in inheritance to a sister of Íñigo, who maintains

lawsuits for the possession of her. Indeed, in one of her will, Íñigo leaves the places of Ameyugo and Tuyo to Pedro, his natural son. But it seems that he never had actual possession.

On the other hand, Commander Nicolás de Guevara took possession of these places by exchange with Constanza de Guevara, Íñigo Velez de Guevara's niece, and not by inheritance. In any case, this purchase had its conflicts, since for a few years the

Velascos appear as co-owners, and there were lawsuits between the heirs of the Comendador and the Velascos for the possession of these places.

In PARES a parchment has been digitized that contains a power of attorney granted in London by Francisco Velez de Guevara for his brother Diego Velez de Guevara, for a lawsuit that they litigated with the Constable Bernardino de Velasco for the

possession of Ameyugo:

Titulo nombre atribuido:Carta de poder realizada por Cristóbal Dowe, notario público de Londres (Gran Bretaña), a favor de Juan Vélez de Guevara, vecino de Ameyugo (Burgos), en relación a un pleito litigado por éste con Bernardino de Velasco,

Condestable de Castilla, y su mujer doña Juana, sobre la posesión de la villa de Ameyugo (Burgos) y su término

Signatura:PERGAMINOS,CARPETA,153,7
Fecha creación:1546 , Londres (Gran Bretaña)
Nivel de descripción:Unidad Documental Simple
Código de referencia:ES.47186.ARCHV//PERGAMINOS,CARPETA,153,7

Ivan

Very interesting. I am curious as to what was finally discovered about the Salinas family and how these two brothers were related to the counts. Even Salazar y Castro could be incorrect at times, possibly lead by apparent clues that might have
indicated kinship.

J. Sardina

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On Monday, November 1, 2021 at 5:36:51 PM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:

Even Salazar y Castro could be incorrect at times,

A bit of an understatement. Salazar y Castro has an ambivalent legacy. He was the premier Iberian genealogists of his generation, applying a prodigious collection of primary and secondary sources to his work, and reaching a level of scholarship not
matched for centuries. But then on the other hand, his concept of scholarship nonetheless was that of the 17th century rather than modern scholarship, yet his reputation as a scholar has left him being given too much credence by modern scholars. His
work is often quoted without attempt at confirmation, in spite of his blind acceptence of non-contemporary pedigrees and a penchant for outright guesswork, and this has served to enshrine a lot of abject nonsense.

taf

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El martes, 2 de noviembre de 2021 a la(s) 13:57:46 UTC-3, taf escribió:

On Monday, November 1, 2021 at 5:36:51 PM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:

Even Salazar y Castro could be incorrect at times,

A bit of an understatement. Salazar y Castro has an ambivalent legacy. He was the premier Iberian genealogists of his generation, applying a prodigious collection of primary and secondary sources to his work, and reaching a level of scholarship not

matched for centuries. But then on the other hand, his concept of scholarship nonetheless was that of the 17th century rather than modern scholarship, yet his reputation as a scholar has left him being given too much credence by modern scholars. His work
is often quoted without attempt at confirmation, in spite of his blind acceptence of non-contemporary pedigrees and a penchant for outright guesswork, and this has served to enshrine a lot of abject nonsense.

taf

There is very interesting information about the Salinas family in a thesis written in 2017:

"Financieros y gestores vascos en la corte castellana a fines de la Edad Media: el tesorero Ochoa de Landa"
https://addi.ehu.es/bitstream/handle/10810/31194/TESIS_MARTINEZ_HERNANDEZ_PAULA.pdf

Treasurer Ochoa de Landa was married to Isabel de Albornoz, daughter of Juan de Salinas and Inés de Albornoz.
The author studied a lot of family documentation, even mentioning at least one letter sent from England by María de Salinas.
There is information from various members of the family, the brothers Juan and Martín de Salinas, their uncle Juan Martínez de Adurza, about the mother of Inés de Albornoz, called Teresa de Tavira, and about the brothers of Inés; of course in
addition to the relatives of Ochoa de Landa himself.

More information about Teresa de Tavira can be found here:

"Colegiales mayores y limpieza de sangre durante la Edad Moderna. El estatuto de S. Clemente de Bolonia (ss. XV-XIX)"
https://books.google.com.br/books?id=X90OY-cUAQIC&pg=PA53&dq=tavira+albornoz+manuel&hl=es-419&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjszPyk0PrzAhXxqZUCHZnVBT0Q6wF6BAgJEAE#v=onepage&q=tavira%20albornoz%20manuel&f=false

Where it is indicated that her husband Pedro de Albornoz was the son of Juan Pérez de Albornoz and Constanza Rodríguez Manuel; and that she was the daughter of Luis González de Tavira and Leonor Carrillo de Albornoz.
His grandson Pedro Carrillo de Albornoz was a new Christian, from a converse family by his father Juan Ponce de San Martín, while his mother Juana de Albornoz was the daughter of the aforementioned Pedro and Teresa, from the Albornoz house according to
Pedro himself, a fact that I have not been able to verify in any of the studies on this family.
Pedro was a Collegiate of Bologna, but after a series of events unleashed after discovering his Jewish ancestry, he was sentenced to death.

Ivan

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A terça-feira, 2 de novembro de 2021 à(s) 16:57:46 UTC, taf escreveu:

On Monday, November 1, 2021 at 5:36:51 PM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:

Even Salazar y Castro could be incorrect at times,

A bit of an understatement. Salazar y Castro has an ambivalent legacy. He was the premier Iberian genealogists of his generation, applying a prodigious collection of primary and secondary sources to his work, and reaching a level of scholarship not

matched for centuries. But then on the other hand, his concept of scholarship nonetheless was that of the 17th century rather than modern scholarship, yet his reputation as a scholar has left him being given too much credence by modern scholars. His work
is often quoted without attempt at confirmation, in spite of his blind acceptence of non-contemporary pedigrees and a penchant for outright guesswork, and this has served to enshrine a lot of abject nonsense.

taf

As you and Nat Taylor showed in the 90s, he invented Rodrigo Rodriguez de Lara.

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On Tuesday, November 2, 2021 at 5:10:34 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:

As you and Nat Taylor showed in the 90s, he invented Rodrigo Rodriguez de Lara.

Credit where it is due - that was demonstrated by Jaime de Salazar y Acha well before, and for that matter it didn't take much demonstrating, as Salazar y Castro pretty much described how he put it together, that he had two Rodriguez sisters whom he
thought were Laras, but they were a generation too young to be daughters of Rodrigo Gonzalez de Lara, and so he just grabbed onto someone named Rodrigo Rodriguez (no toponymic) in local documents and decided that must be the intervening Lara generation.
All one needs to do is read his own text to see what he did. It was Salazar y Acha who discovered that the two sisters weren't Laras at all, causing the whole house of cards to crumble.

There are many more instances. For example, the flawed connection between Osorio Martinez and Alvar Rodriguez Osorio, and worse yet, the completely invented ancestry of Rodrigo Nunez (i.e. Munoz) de Guzman, while he also uncritically accepted the fantasy
that all of the 'de Toledo' families were male-line kin (as if a bunch of people from Toledo couldn't end up being called 'of Toledo' unless they were related) and descendants of a mythical son of Emperor Isaac of Constantinople, while elsewhere giving
them a different pedigree - one member of one Toledo family married a Guzman wife and his children used their mother's surname, but in a shocking failure to understand the nature of onomastic practice at the time, it was somehow assumed that if one
member of the patrilineage was named Guzman, they and every other de Toledo lineage must be male-line Guzmans. There was also his forced attempt to transform the Siete Infantes de Sala legend into a largely-dubious Lara origin pedigree. I could go on,
but I think everyone gets the idea.

taf

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A quarta-feira, 3 de novembro de 2021 à(s) 04:42:48 UTC, taf escreveu:

On Tuesday, November 2, 2021 at 5:10:34 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:

As you and Nat Taylor showed in the 90s, he invented Rodrigo Rodriguez de Lara.

Credit where it is due - that was demonstrated by Jaime de Salazar y Acha well before, and for that matter it didn't take much demonstrating, as Salazar y Castro pretty much described how he put it together, that he had two Rodriguez sisters whom he

thought were Laras, but they were a generation too young to be daughters of Rodrigo Gonzalez de Lara, and so he just grabbed onto someone named Rodrigo Rodriguez (no toponymic) in local documents and decided that must be the intervening Lara generation.
All one needs to do is read his own text to see what he did. It was Salazar y Acha who discovered that the two sisters weren't Laras at all, causing the whole house of cards to crumble.

There are many more instances. For example, the flawed connection between Osorio Martinez and Alvar Rodriguez Osorio, and worse yet, the completely invented ancestry of Rodrigo Nunez (i.e. Munoz) de Guzman, while he also uncritically accepted the

fantasy that all of the 'de Toledo' families were male-line kin (as if a bunch of people from Toledo couldn't end up being called 'of Toledo' unless they were related) and descendants of a mythical son of Emperor Isaac of Constantinople, while elsewhere
giving them a different pedigree - one member of one Toledo family married a Guzman wife and his children used their mother's surname, but in a shocking failure to understand the nature of onomastic practice at the time, it was somehow assumed that if
one member of the patrilineage was named Guzman, they and every other de Toledo lineage must be male-line Guzmans. There was also his forced attempt to transform the Siete Infantes de Sala legend into a largely-dubious Lara origin pedigree. I could go on,
but I think everyone gets the idea.

taf

I actually considering mentioning the Toledo one. Anyways, the sisters were daughtets of Rodrigo Fernandez de Torono and Aldonza Peréz. https://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00115165&tree=LEO says Aldonza's original parents were wong. So, waa
she not daughter of Pedro Munoz and Guntondra, like you said in the 90s?

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On Wednesday, November 3, 2021 at 12:48:57 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:

Anyways, the sisters were daughtets of Rodrigo Fernandez de Torono and Aldonza Peréz.
https://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00115165&tree=LEO says Aldonza's original
parents were wong. So, waa she not daughter of Pedro Munoz and Guntondra, like you said in
the 90s?

I am not really sure what the comment in the genealogics entry, "her original parents are wrong," is in reference to - who the 'original parents' are that are wrong.

Salazar y Acha located in the chartulary of a religious house a genealogy of its patron family, that traced the patronage through Pedro Munoz to his daughter Aldonza and granddaughters. It is an imperfect source but, but all of this information, Aldonza'
s parents and daughters, are provided together, so it would take strong contemporary documentation to contradict it, and if you did find such documentation, it would impeach the source as a whole, given that the lineage of patronage that it is tracing
passes through this precise connection (i.e. if it is wrong about them being granddaughters of Pedro Munoz, it can't be trusted that they were children of Rodrigo Fernandez de Torono and Aldonza Perez). Anyhow, genealogics only cites Turton and a work on
Louis XIV's ancestry, both of which were published before Salazar published his discovery.

I strongly suspect that this comment is a reference to the 'original parents' of Sancha Rodriguez being wrong - after all, Turton still has this as a Lara line - rather than Aldonza Perez, who if I recall correctly wasn't even in the picture prior to
Salazar's publication.

taf

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A quarta-feira, 3 de novembro de 2021 à(s) 10:47:36 UTC, taf escreveu:

On Wednesday, November 3, 2021 at 12:48:57 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:

Anyways, the sisters were daughtets of Rodrigo Fernandez de Torono and Aldonza Peréz.
https://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00115165&tree=LEO says Aldonza's original
parents were wong. So, waa she not daughter of Pedro Munoz and Guntondra, like you said in
the 90s?

I am not really sure what the comment in the genealogics entry, "her original parents are wrong," is in reference to - who the 'original parents' are that are wrong.

Salazar y Acha located in the chartulary of a religious house a genealogy of its patron family, that traced the patronage through Pedro Munoz to his daughter Aldonza and granddaughters. It is an imperfect source but, but all of this information,

Aldonza's parents and daughters, are provided together, so it would take strong contemporary documentation to contradict it, and if you did find such documentation, it would impeach the source as a whole, given that the lineage of patronage that it is
tracing passes through this precise connection (i.e. if it is wrong about them being granddaughters of Pedro Munoz, it can't be trusted that they were children of Rodrigo Fernandez de Torono and Aldonza Perez). Anyhow, genealogics only cites Turton and a
work on Louis XIV's ancestry, both of which were published before Salazar published his discovery.

I strongly suspect that this comment is a reference to the 'original parents' of Sancha Rodriguez being wrong - after all, Turton still has this as a Lara line - rather than Aldonza Perez, who if I recall correctly wasn't even in the picture prior to

Salazar's publication.

taf

Thanks for this, Todd.

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