The legend that Albert II had two sons, named William and Henry, who accidentally killed each other while jousting persists even in the
latest ESnF table for the family, vol. I/2 (1999), despite being an
invention from the late-14th century.
The story first occurs in the heavily-embellished chronicle of Jean d'Outremeuse titled 'Ly myreur des histors'. According to this, Albert
with his sons (aged 14 and 13 respectively) attended a tournament at
Andenne (or Andain, now Saint-Hubert) held over three days in mid-May
1202 to mark the departure of Balduin IX of Flanders on crusade. Also attending were Henri of Louvain (duke of Brabant) and his paternal half-brother William of Perwez, both described as brothers of Albert
(who was actually their uncle, a maternal half-brother of their father).
The youths, oddly named after these two non-Dagsburg half-blood cousins,
were allegedly over-excited by the sport and after returning home to
Moha tried it for themselves, impaling each other on their lances with
fatal results.
Apart from this implausible outcome of teenage rashness, there are
several holes in the narrative:
1. Balduin IX actually left in mid-April 1202, not in May.
2. Val Notre-Dame abbey at Antheit near Moha was founded by Albert in 1209/10, not in 1202 as asserted by Jean d'Outremeuse.
3. Albert evidently had no offspring in 1197 when his nephew Henri of
Brabant and another relative named as attending the tournament at
Andenne, Louis of Loon, agreed to divide his inheritance between
themselves if he should die childless.
4. Albert is supposed to have made a pilgrimage to Jerusalem in honour
of his dead sons, praying in the Holy Sepulchre on 15 August of an unspecified year and then travelling by sea to Constantinople where the reigning Latin emperor when he arrived was Balduin IX's brother and
successor Henri of Hainaut (i.e. after the latter's coronation on 20
August 1206). From the dating of Albert's documents we know that he
could only have made such a journey in 1209, yet in his charter for Val Notre-Dame abbey dated 1210 he donated for the souls of various family members without mentioning any deceased sons.
5. Albert's daughter and heiress Gertrude, born in 1206, was
specifically described as his only child - this meant his only
legitimate child, as she had at least one illegitimate half-brother,
Walter of Turquestein, whom she named in a charter dated 1223 and her
widower Simon of Leiningen named in 1233.
On 29-Oct-21 10:47 AM, Peter Stewart wrote:..
The legend that Albert II had two sons, named William and Henry, who accidentally killed each other while jousting persists even in the
latest ESnF table for the family, vol. I/2 (1999), despite being an invention from the late-14th century.
A correspondent off-list asked me if Albert II's illegitimate son may
have left descendants, wondering if a male line from his agnatic
7th-century ancestor Eticho, duke in Alsace, could perhaps have
continued into modern times.
Unfortunately this does not seem likely. Walter of Turquestein, who is
On Sunday, October 31, 2021 at 5:15:10 AM UTC, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
On 29-Oct-21 10:47 AM, Peter Stewart wrote:..
The legend that Albert II had two sons, named William and Henry, who
accidentally killed each other while jousting persists even in the
latest ESnF table for the family, vol. I/2 (1999), despite being an
invention from the late-14th century.
A correspondent off-list asked me if Albert II's illegitimate son may
have left descendants, wondering if a male line from his agnatic
7th-century ancestor Eticho, duke in Alsace, could perhaps have
continued into modern times.
Unfortunately this does not seem likely. Walter of Turquestein, who is
I was wondering about the descent from Eticho too. It seems widely accepted across the net
but did the counts of Eguisheim or a medieval source from the period ever claim that they
were descended from the infamous Eticho?
As I understand it the wife of Lothar I, daughter of Hugh of Tours is said to be descended from
Duke Etih in the 9th century by the chronicler Thegan. Hugh is seen as the ancestor of the
later counts of Alsace and the Eguisheimers are in turn descended from them. Eticho is also
called Adalric - did he have 2 names or is Eticho/Etih a derivative?
It seems it goes like this Adalric/Eticho [d683]--Eticho--Hugh, and this Hugh is seen as grandfather
of Hugh of Tours [d837], and then there are a lot of differences across the net as to the filiation and
numbering of the different Luitfrids and Hughs as Alsace was divided between Sundgau and Nordgau.
The line from Hugh of Tours to Luitfrid VII [1003] in the Sundgau has several breaks in it but everyone
accepts its the same family, however its not clear how the counts in the Nordgau starting with
Eberard III [898] are descended from Hugh of Tours, and it is this line which becomes Eguisheim.
It seems Hugh of Eguisheim [d1048] was a younger son of Hugh Raucus [d986] Count of Nordgau.
The line I've seen on the net has the Nordgau descended not from Hugh of Tours but to Eberard I of
Nordgau [777] a supposed descendant of Eticho. So I wonder how firm is this line from Eticho to
the Eguisheimers?
I expect that historians can find other ways to trace the Eguisheimers back to Hugh of Tours, but I
just wondered if this descent from a 7th century merovingian duke was mentioned again in the
medieval period after the 9th century.
The legend that Albert II had two sons, named William and Henry, who accidentally killed each other while jousting persists even in the
latest ESnF table for the family, vol. I/2 (1999), despite being an
invention from the late-14th century.
On 03-Nov-21 4:38 AM, mike davis wrote:
On Sunday, October 31, 2021 at 5:15:10 AM UTC, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
On 29-Oct-21 10:47 AM, Peter Stewart wrote:..
The legend that Albert II had two sons, named William and Henry, who
accidentally killed each other while jousting persists even in the
latest ESnF table for the family, vol. I/2 (1999), despite being an
invention from the late-14th century.
A correspondent off-list asked me if Albert II's illegitimate son may
have left descendants, wondering if a male line from his agnatic
7th-century ancestor Eticho, duke in Alsace, could perhaps have
continued into modern times.
Unfortunately this does not seem likely. Walter of Turquestein, who is
I was wondering about the descent from Eticho too. It seems widely accepted across the net
but did the counts of Eguisheim or a medieval source from the period ever claim that they
were descended from the infamous Eticho?
As I understand it the wife of Lothar I, daughter of Hugh of Tours is said to be descended fromAs you say, Thegan wrote that Hugo of Tours, father of Lothar's wife, belonged to the lineage of Eticho ("Hlutharius ... suscepit in coniugium filiam Hugi comitis, qui erat de stirpe cuiusdam ducis nomine Etih"),
Duke Etih in the 9th century by the chronicler Thegan. Hugh is seen as the ancestor of the
later counts of Alsace and the Eguisheimers are in turn descended from them. Eticho is also
called Adalric - did he have 2 names or is Eticho/Etih a derivative?
but there is not complete certainty about which Etichonid descendant was Hugo's father.
According to the mid-9th-century Vita of St Odilia, abbess of Hohenburg, Eticho was properly named Adalric ("Temporibus igitur Childerici
imperatoris erat quidam dux illustris nomine Adalricus, qui etiam alio nomine Etih dicebatur"). He occurs as Adalric in a spurious charter of Thierry III confiscating his benefices for alleged disloyalty,
ostensibly dated 4 September 679, that was included in a 12th-century chronicle. In earlier authentic sources he is also called Chadich and Chatalrich, suggesting that Etih/Eticho was indeed a nickname derived
from Adalric.
It seems it goes like this Adalric/Eticho [d683]--Eticho--Hugh, and this Hugh is seen as grandfatherThe descent is all but certain from inheritance of the same leading
of Hugh of Tours [d837], and then there are a lot of differences across the net as to the filiation and
numbering of the different Luitfrids and Hughs as Alsace was divided between Sundgau and Nordgau.
names (Eticho, Hugo, Liutfrid) and power bases, including lay abbacies
and monastic advocacies during a period when these were more reliably transmitted within agnatic lines than some other offices, though
specifics are not recorded in a few generations.
The line from Hugh of Tours to Luitfrid VII [1003] in the Sundgau has several breaks in it but everyoneIt is not unquestioned in the literature, but consensus regarding a male-line connection has been strong over centuries. The filiation and byname of Hugo Raucus are stated in a bull of his grandson Pope Leo IX
accepts its the same family, however its not clear how the counts in the Nordgau starting with
Eberard III [898] are descended from Hugh of Tours, and it is this line which becomes Eguisheim.
It seems Hugh of Eguisheim [d1048] was a younger son of Hugh Raucus [d986] Count of Nordgau.
The line I've seen on the net has the Nordgau descended not from Hugh of Tours but to Eberard I of
Nordgau [777] a supposed descendant of Eticho. So I wonder how firm is this line from Eticho to
the Eguisheimers?
for Altdorf abbey, so there is no doubt about a link from counts in the Alsatian Nordgau in presumed dynastc succession from Eticho to the
comital lineage of Eguisheim.
I expect that historians can find other ways to trace the Eguisheimers back to Hugh of Tours, but IThe mid-12th century chronicle of Ebersheim confused Eticho's father Liuteric with Leudesius son of Erchinoald, making them blood relatives
just wondered if this descent from a 7th century merovingian duke was mentioned again in the
medieval period after the 9th century.
of the Merovingians and describing Eticho's mother as a relative of Burgundian kings - this was accepted by some, not all, historians until
the late-19th century. The 12th-century chronicle of Saint-Pierre de
Bèze made Adalric/Eticho into the son of a duke in Burgundy named Amalgarius. In the 15th/16th-century cartulary of Honau abbey there is a genealogy of Eticho's descendants. He reportedly killed his son with a
blow from a club for the boy's temerity in displaying Eticho's daughter
St Odilia to a crowd when she was being carried in a litter at
Hohenburg, so he and his immediate family figure in her hagiographies
from the 9th and 13th centuries.
Finally to get back to the original subject of the Dagsburgs. There seems
to be another break in the male line from Eticho to Albert II [d1212?] because
I read that he is descended from Albert II lord of Moha [d1098] who married Heilwig of Dagsburg. Albert of Moha inherited Dagsburg & Eguisheim when both of her
brothers Gerhard II and Hugo VI [d1089] died without heirs. This I read on Wiki for Moha but wiki can be wrong. Also the numbering of the various Hugos of Nordgau and Eguisheim is a nightmare. Everybody has their own version!
On Thursday, November 4, 2021 at 12:06:01 PM UTC, mike davis wrote:
Finally to get back to the original subject of the Dagsburgs. There seems
to be another break in the male line from Eticho to Albert II [d1212?] because
I read that he is descended from Albert II lord of Moha [d1098] who married >> Heilwig of Dagsburg. Albert of Moha inherited Dagsburg & Eguisheim when both of her
brothers Gerhard II and Hugo VI [d1089] died without heirs. This I read on >> Wiki for Moha but wiki can be wrong. Also the numbering of the various Hugos >> of Nordgau and Eguisheim is a nightmare. Everybody has their own version!
I've been emailed that the moha business is the other way round. Namely
that Henry I of Eguisheim married the heiress of Moha [a tiny place near Leige]
and that Albert II of Moha was in fact his son who then succeeded to his brothers counties after they both died.
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