• Re: William Sidney (d.1449) of Kingsham, Sussex and Cranley, Surrey

    From Paul Mackenzie@21:1/5 to bjas...@gmail.com on Sat Oct 23 15:47:34 2021
    Here are my notes for John Michelgrove III d1459. As to William Sidney of Kingsham, he is a mystery [to me].
    The Sidney family was said to hold the manor of Kingsham, and thru the marriage of Mary/Anne Sidney this manor was brought to the family of Michelgrove then Shelley. HOWEVER, this manor had sometime earlier been divested by the Sidney family and had
    ultimately ended up in the hands of the heirs of John Tavener, to wit Joan Wheghelton alias Whelton, and Margaret Scarddevyle. This Joan Whelton had married the father of John Michelgrove III.
    It is said her grandson John Michelgrove had married Anne/Mary Sidney. [See memorial of their daughter Elizabeth Michelgrove aka Shelley].

    NOTES

    John Michelgrove III 1413- 1459 and Joan ?- after 1459


    John Michelgrove III was born around 1413. An inquisition was taken at Chichester in 1438 after the death of his mother Joan Michelgrove formerly the wife of John Michelgrove II. John Michelgrove III was said to be 25 years on the day of the
    inquisition was taken and was said to be heir to both of them.


    In 1441 John Michelgrove, as patron presented two chaplains for the chapel at St. Giles, Wotton. He was evidently a man of standing as he was given a number of commissions in the county. In 1446 he was appointed with others to distribute an allowance of
    tax to poor towns desolate or greatly overcharged as a result of the civil wars. In 1456 he was commissioned to survey the walls and ditches in the county; and to inquire into the escape of a prisoner from Chichester goal. In 1457 he was granted a
    licence with William Earl of Arundell and others to form a guild at Horsham; commissioned to enquire touching contracts and conventions in the Bishopic of Chichester concerning the office of Admirality. and to raise 300 odd archers in Sussex. In the
    commission of 1446, on 16 July in the Fine Rolls he is described as "knight coming to Parliament".


    John Michelgrove III died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.]. His son and heir was John Michelgrove IV then aged 22 years, who died shortly thereafter. The inquisitions taken on the deaths on both of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost
    identical land holdings. They both refer to holdings at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land.


    John Michelgrove III also married a Joan who was still living at the latter's death. The Escheator for Sussex made in 1460 an assignment of dower to Joan the wife said John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. The
    surname of his wife is not certain. Some say her surname was Shoyerwell???[but no sources are given].


    Note: There were two couples John and Joan Michelgrove, one John Michelgrove III and Joan who died after 1460; and his parents John Michelgrove II and Joan who died in 1438, which has lead to some spurious genealogies.

    Paul
    Sunshine Coast, Qld

    On Friday, 26 October 2012 at 3:34:05 pm UTC+10, bjas...@gmail.com wrote:
    Greetings all...

    Does anyone have any information on the family and wives of William Sidney who was MP for Sussex in 1429 and 1433 and died in 1449. He was buried at Cranley, Surrey.

    I am descended from his daughter Ann who married John Michelgrove (d. 1459) of Michelgrove in Clapham, Sussex. I think Ann Sidney was born mid to late 1430's and she later married an Apsley after her first husband died.

    William apparenty had 3 wives or possibly only two according to some sources. His wives seem to be Cecily Michell, Elizabeth (or Isabel) St. John and finally Thomasine Lunsford nee Barrington. I think Elizabeth St. John is my Ann's mother as this seems
    to fit with the know chronology.

    But who is Isabel or Elizabeth St. John? One source has her as a daughter of Lord St. John but I can find no evidence of this in Complete Peerage as the Last Lord St. John at the appropriate time was a Poynings.

    Any help will be appreciated.

    Brenden (Gold Coast, Qld)

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  • From Paul Mackenzie@21:1/5 to Paul Mackenzie on Sat Oct 23 16:05:44 2021
    On Sunday, 24 October 2021 at 8:47:35 am UTC+10, Paul Mackenzie wrote:
    Here are my notes for John Michelgrove III d1459. As to William Sidney of Kingsham, he is a mystery [to me].
    The Sidney family was said to hold the manor of Kingsham, and thru the marriage of Mary/Anne Sidney this manor was brought to the family of Michelgrove then Shelley. HOWEVER, this manor had sometime earlier been divested by the Sidney family and had
    ultimately ended up in the hands of the heirs of John Tavener, to wit Joan Wheghelton alias Whelton, and Margaret Scarddevyle. This Joan Whelton had married the father of John Michelgrove III.
    It is said her grandson John Michelgrove had married Anne/Mary Sidney. [See memorial of their daughter Elizabeth Michelgrove aka Shelley].

    NOTES

    John Michelgrove III 1413- 1459 and Joan ?- after 1459


    John Michelgrove III was born around 1413. An inquisition was taken at Chichester in 1438 after the death of his mother Joan Michelgrove formerly the wife of John Michelgrove II. John Michelgrove III was said to be 25 years on the day of the
    inquisition was taken and was said to be heir to both of them.


    In 1441 John Michelgrove, as patron presented two chaplains for the chapel at St. Giles, Wotton. He was evidently a man of standing as he was given a number of commissions in the county. In 1446 he was appointed with others to distribute an allowance
    of tax to poor towns desolate or greatly overcharged as a result of the civil wars. In 1456 he was commissioned to survey the walls and ditches in the county; and to inquire into the escape of a prisoner from Chichester goal. In 1457 he was granted a
    licence with William Earl of Arundell and others to form a guild at Horsham; commissioned to enquire touching contracts and conventions in the Bishopic of Chichester concerning the office of Admirality. and to raise 300 odd archers in Sussex. In the
    commission of 1446, on 16 July in the Fine Rolls he is described as "knight coming to Parliament".


    John Michelgrove III died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.]. His son and heir was John Michelgrove IV then aged 22 years, who died shortly thereafter. The inquisitions taken on the deaths on both of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost
    identical land holdings. They both refer to holdings at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land.


    John Michelgrove III also married a Joan who was still living at the latter's death. The Escheator for Sussex made in 1460 an assignment of dower to Joan the wife said John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. The
    surname of his wife is not certain. Some say her surname was Shoyerwell???[but no sources are given].


    Note: There were two couples John and Joan Michelgrove, one John Michelgrove III and Joan who died after 1460; and his parents John Michelgrove II and Joan who died in 1438, which has lead to some spurious genealogies.

    Paul
    Sunshine Coast, Qld

    References



    C 139/91/18 Michelgrove, Joan: Kent, Sussex." https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6159659

    "#145 - Miscellaneous records. v.4. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uva.x001018861&view=1up&seq=145&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#44 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.18 1445-1452. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017901&view=1up&seq=44&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#50 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.18 1445-1452. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017901&view=1up&seq=50&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no776/aCP40no776fronts/IMG_0854.htm Citation
    AALT website
    CP40/776: Hilary Term 1455

    "#357 - Calendar of the patent rolls, preserved in the Public ... v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.31158013042337&view=1up&seq=357&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#428 - Calendar of the patent rolls, preserved in the Public ... v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.31158013042337&view=1up&seq=428&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "Catalogue description Michelgrove, John, esq: Sussex, Kent." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6160687. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Paul Mackenzie@21:1/5 to All on Sat Oct 23 16:34:06 2021
    Here are my notes on his son

    Here are my notes on the son.

    JOHN MICHELGROVE IV was born in March 1436, probably in either Sussex or Kent, to John Michelgrove (1413-1459) and Joan. It is said he apparently married Mary/Anne? Sidney about 1450 of Kent, England.

    John Michelgrove was a young man of 23 years when he died on 21 November 1459, only ten months after the death of his father John Michelgrove, esquire the elder. The later died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.] and his inquisition post mortem gives
    the age of his son and heir, John the younger as 22 years and 11 months on 22 April 1459. The inquisitions taken on the deaths of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. In Kent these were the manor of Fauconherst with the
    advowson of the church of Herst, held of the king in chief by service of one quarter of a knights fee: not a very rich property, comprising 40 acres of pasture, 80 acres of marsh and 25 acres of felled woodland and underwood, of total value per annum 46s.
    6d. With another 13s. 4d. for the church. In Sussex they held of the King in Chief a messuage, 2 virgates of land and 100 acres of pasture called Wotton by Folkington as part of the manor of Fauconherst in Kent. They also held as tenants-in-chief a toft
    and 20 acres of land at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land. The latter lands acquired by the Michelgrove family by the marriage of his grandmother Joan Whegeton.

    The main difference between the land holdings of the father and son is that the son held only two parts of Fauconherst and Wotton. At the the time of his fathers inquisition in 1458/9 the Escheator for Sussex made an assignment of dower to Joan wife of
    the late John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. John the younger is referred to as son and heir of John Senior in the assignment, but not specifically of Joan the widow.

    It is not known where he was born or died, but it is believed he resided at Michelgrove House, Sussex.

    MARY/ANNE? SIDNEY, his apparent wife, was born about 1428 of Kent, England, to William Sydney of Kingsham (1390-1449) and Cecily Michell (1390-1447.) She married John Michelgrove about 1450 of Sussex, England. Mary Sidney passed away about 1478, England,
    age 50 [further sources needed].

    However, it should be noted that the Michelgroves had acquired by 1414 a half share of the manor of Kingsham through their grandmother Joan Whegleton, who apparently was a descendant and heir of the Sydneys. The other half was held by her sister Margaret
    Scardevyle. But by 1428 William Sydney was said to possess a 1/3 share of the manor. John Michelgrove III father of the current John acted as a third party to the conveyance of this Manor to William Sydney and his heir males by Isabel St. John in 1445.
    Presumably this was a precursor of settling the manor on Mary Sydney and her husband John Michelgrove.

    John junior’s SOLE daughter and heir was Elizabeth Michelgrove who was born 28 March 1460 some 3 months after her father died.

    References
    Great Britain. Public Record Office, and H. C. Maxwell Lyte. Inquisitions And Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids: With Other Analogous Documents Preserved In the Public Record Office. A.D. 1284-1431. London: Printed for H. M. Stationery off., by Eyre
    and Spottiswoode, 18991920.v5 p157

    "Sussex Fines: 21." 25 Henry VI https://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol3/pp255-260#h3-0003. Accessed 20 Oct. 2021.

    "#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#610 - Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public ... 1452-1461 Henry VI v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079547&view=1up&seq=610&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "Catalogue description Michelgrove, John Kent, Sussex." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6544445. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#107 - Calendar of the patent rolls. 1461-1467. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026339&view=1up&seq=107&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#294 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#28 - Proofs of age of Sussex families, temp. Edw. II to Edw. IV.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hx1fkv&view=1up&seq=28&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 16 Oct. 2021.
    Notes
    MICHELGROVE . - Proof of the age of ELIZABETH , daughter and heir of John MICHELGROVE , Taken at Steyning , 29th March , 15 Edw . IV . ( 1475 ) .
    John Wolff deposes that the said Elizabeth is upwards of fourteen years old , for she was born at Ernle , on March 28th , 39 Hen . VI . ( 1461 ) ; and that Elizabeth , wife of Thomas Taweke , Esq . , one of her godmothers , told him she had been at her
    baptism at Ernle on that day .
    John Remys deposes that she is fourteen years old , because on the day abovesaid he met John Ernle , her godfather , going to Ernle church to her baptism .
    John Hunt recollects the day , because he rode with Joan Ernle , the other godmother , to Ernle church on that day to the baptism .
    John Broker — because the godfather and godmothers , and many other persons , came into his house on that day , directly after the baptism of the said Elizabeth , to eat and to drink , and they told him of it .
    Richard Millward — because on that day John Ernle , the godfather , met him and told him of the baptism .
    John Ederuhem because the horses of John Ernle , the god father , stood at his house on that day , and after the baptism he told him he was the godfather .
    William Atte Lee because he was in Ernle church on that day to hear mass . Richard French - - because in going to the church to see the baptism , he fell with his right leg against a ladder , in the parish of Ernle , and broke his leg , which he shall never forget .
    William Clement – because the day was very windy , and part of his house was unroofed by the wind .
    Nicholas Shepherd , John Mansell , and John Grey - because on that day they met a woman named Isabella Tryse , who was the midwife at the birth of the said Elizabeth , and she told them of her birth and baptism .
    Robert Comber and John Duke because they met Thomas Elyot , the chaplain of Ernle , who told them he had baptised the said Elizabeth , in Ernle church on that day . 3
    1 The writ was sued out by Sir John and the inquisition was held the day after Shelley , whom she had already , though so she was fourteen ; her husband lost no young , married . She ob . 30th June , 1513 , time therefore in acquiring her or her and was
    buried at Clapham .
    3 The writ was dated 8th Nov . 1474 , 3 Inq . 15 Edw . IV . No . 66 ..

    https://www.sussexrecordsociety.org/olb/srs014/
    Citation
    Sussex Record Society Volume 14 page 201.
    Notes
    JOHN SHELLEY,
    esq.
    Vol. 46, No. 14.
    Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 3 Jan. 18 Hen. VIII.
    Heir, son William Shelley, the Judge, aged 48 and more.
    Lands. Manor of Applesham, advowson of and lands in Combes settled 26 Sept. 18 Hen. VIII. on Alice, wife of William Shelley his son and heir, remainder to William S. and his heirs. Moiety of manor and advowson of Denton in Denton and "Sakam" in
    Shermanbury also settled on said William and Alice. Manor of Hoope in Rudgwick settled 16 Hen. VIII. on himself for life and afterwards on Richard Shelley and Mary his wife. Lands called "Lymeborn" in Fittleworth,"Wayhurst" in Rudgwick, "la Lee" in
    Clapham, and lands in Storrington, Salvington, Horsbroke, Pokkesmore, Shermanbury, North Mundham, Slinfold, Middleton and Bensted.


    ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15.
    Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII.
    Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more.
    Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Bulshams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near Fakington. and advowson of the chapel
    of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called "Wantley" in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the sisters and heirs apparent of Edward
    Belknap, settled them to their use.

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  • From Gillian Mckenna@21:1/5 to macken...@gmail.com on Thu Jun 16 04:38:14 2022
    On Sunday, 24 October 2021 at 01:34:07 UTC+2, macken...@gmail.com wrote:
    Here are my notes on his son

    Here are my notes on the son.

    JOHN MICHELGROVE IV was born in March 1436, probably in either Sussex or Kent, to John Michelgrove (1413-1459) and Joan. It is said he apparently married Mary/Anne? Sidney about 1450 of Kent, England.

    John Michelgrove was a young man of 23 years when he died on 21 November 1459, only ten months after the death of his father John Michelgrove, esquire the elder. The later died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.] and his inquisition post mortem
    gives the age of his son and heir, John the younger as 22 years and 11 months on 22 April 1459. The inquisitions taken on the deaths of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. In Kent these were the manor of Fauconherst with the
    advowson of the church of Herst, held of the king in chief by service of one quarter of a knights fee: not a very rich property, comprising 40 acres of pasture, 80 acres of marsh and 25 acres of felled woodland and underwood, of total value per annum 46s.
    6d. With another 13s. 4d. for the church. In Sussex they held of the King in Chief a messuage, 2 virgates of land and 100 acres of pasture called Wotton by Folkington as part of the manor of Fauconherst in Kent. They also held as tenants-in-chief a toft
    and 20 acres of land at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land. The latter lands acquired by the Michelgrove family by the marriage of his grandmother Joan Whegeton.

    The main difference between the land holdings of the father and son is that the son held only two parts of Fauconherst and Wotton. At the the time of his fathers inquisition in 1458/9 the Escheator for Sussex made an assignment of dower to Joan wife of
    the late John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. John the younger is referred to as son and heir of John Senior in the assignment, but not specifically of Joan the widow.

    It is not known where he was born or died, but it is believed he resided at Michelgrove House, Sussex.

    MARY/ANNE? SIDNEY, his apparent wife, was born about 1428 of Kent, England, to William Sydney of Kingsham (1390-1449) and Cecily Michell (1390-1447.) She married John Michelgrove about 1450 of Sussex, England. Mary Sidney passed away about 1478,
    England, age 50 [further sources needed].

    However, it should be noted that the Michelgroves had acquired by 1414 a half share of the manor of Kingsham through their grandmother Joan Whegleton, who apparently was a descendant and heir of the Sydneys. The other half was held by her sister
    Margaret Scardevyle. But by 1428 William Sydney was said to possess a 1/3 share of the manor. John Michelgrove III father of the current John acted as a third party to the conveyance of this Manor to William Sydney and his heir males by Isabel St. John
    in 1445. Presumably this was a precursor of settling the manor on Mary Sydney and her husband John Michelgrove.

    John junior’s SOLE daughter and heir was Elizabeth Michelgrove who was born 28 March 1460 some 3 months after her father died.

    References
    Great Britain. Public Record Office, and H. C. Maxwell Lyte. Inquisitions And Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids: With Other Analogous Documents Preserved In the Public Record Office. A.D. 1284-1431. London: Printed for H. M. Stationery off., by Eyre
    and Spottiswoode, 18991920.v5 p157

    "Sussex Fines: 21." 25 Henry VI https://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol3/pp255-260#h3-0003. Accessed 20 Oct. 2021.
    "#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
    "#610 - Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public ... 1452-1461 Henry VI v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079547&view=1up&seq=610&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.


    "Catalogue description Michelgrove, John Kent, Sussex." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6544445. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#107 - Calendar of the patent rolls. 1461-1467. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026339&view=1up&seq=107&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#294 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#28 - Proofs of age of Sussex families, temp. Edw. II to Edw. IV.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hx1fkv&view=1up&seq=28&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 16 Oct. 2021.
    Notes
    MICHELGROVE . - Proof of the age of ELIZABETH , daughter and heir of John MICHELGROVE , Taken at Steyning , 29th March , 15 Edw . IV . ( 1475 ) .
    John Wolff deposes that the said Elizabeth is upwards of fourteen years old , for she was born at Ernle , on March 28th , 39 Hen . VI . ( 1461 ) ; and that Elizabeth , wife of Thomas Taweke , Esq . , one of her godmothers , told him she had been at her
    baptism at Ernle on that day .
    John Remys deposes that she is fourteen years old , because on the day abovesaid he met John Ernle , her godfather , going to Ernle church to her baptism .
    John Hunt recollects the day , because he rode with Joan Ernle , the other godmother , to Ernle church on that day to the baptism .
    John Broker — because the godfather and godmothers , and many other persons , came into his house on that day , directly after the baptism of the said Elizabeth , to eat and to drink , and they told him of it .
    Richard Millward — because on that day John Ernle , the godfather , met him and told him of the baptism .
    John Ederuhem because the horses of John Ernle , the god father , stood at his house on that day , and after the baptism he told him he was the godfather .
    William Atte Lee because he was in Ernle church on that day to hear mass . Richard French - - because in going to the church to see the baptism , he fell with his right leg against a ladder , in the parish of Ernle , and broke his leg , which he shall never forget .
    William Clement – because the day was very windy , and part of his house was unroofed by the wind .
    Nicholas Shepherd , John Mansell , and John Grey - because on that day they met a woman named Isabella Tryse , who was the midwife at the birth of the said Elizabeth , and she told them of her birth and baptism .
    Robert Comber and John Duke because they met Thomas Elyot , the chaplain of Ernle , who told them he had baptised the said Elizabeth , in Ernle church on that day . 3
    1 The writ was sued out by Sir John and the inquisition was held the day after Shelley , whom she had already , though so she was fourteen ; her husband lost no young , married . She ob . 30th June , 1513 , time therefore in acquiring her or her and
    was buried at Clapham .
    3 The writ was dated 8th Nov . 1474 , 3 Inq . 15 Edw . IV . No . 66 ..

    https://www.sussexrecordsociety.org/olb/srs014/
    Citation
    Sussex Record Society Volume 14 page 201.
    Notes
    JOHN SHELLEY,
    esq.
    Vol. 46, No. 14.
    Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 3 Jan. 18 Hen. VIII.
    Heir, son William Shelley, the Judge, aged 48 and more.
    Lands. Manor of Applesham, advowson of and lands in Combes settled 26 Sept. 18 Hen. VIII. on Alice, wife of William Shelley his son and heir, remainder to William S. and his heirs. Moiety of manor and advowson of Denton in Denton and "Sakam" in
    Shermanbury also settled on said William and Alice. Manor of Hoope in Rudgwick settled 16 Hen. VIII. on himself for life and afterwards on Richard Shelley and Mary his wife. Lands called "Lymeborn" in Fittleworth,"Wayhurst" in Rudgwick, "la Lee" in
    Clapham, and lands in Storrington, Salvington, Horsbroke, Pokkesmore, Shermanbury, North Mundham, Slinfold, Middleton and Bensted.


    ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15.
    Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII.
    Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more.
    Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Bulshams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near Fakington. and advowson of the
    chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called "Wantley" in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the sisters and heirs apparent of
    Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.

    Hi All,

    I was very pleased to find these Michelgrove messages and I have been reading them with great interest. I am researching the Lewknor line of Sussex. Bennet Lewknor (whose 2nd husband was Thomas Twisden, direct ancestor) was the daughter of Richard
    Lewknor of Sherfield Sussex and "unknown" daughter of Michelgrove. This information comes from "Sussex Archaeological Collections, History and Antiquities of the County". Looking at the site "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", I can see the the
    mysterious Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. Some sources are given but I have not been able to check them. On Wikitrees, there is a mass of information about the Lewknors and Twisdens as they descend from William de
    Huntingfield one of the Magna Carta Barons.

    I am a bit confused as you say in the inquisition post mortem of John Michelgrove III (died 1458/9) his widow was Joan?? I thought (according to the above messages) his wife was Mary/Anne d 1478.

    According to the website "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", John Michelgrove & Mary Sidney have 2 daus, Elizabeth & unknown. No mention of son John d1459. I think maybe the Elizabeth is the dau of John IV. A mistake maybe. This tree is referred
    to a lot in Wikitrees.

    Going back to the Joan & Mary/Anne Sidney question, am I reading this incorrectly?

    Thanks in advance

    Gillian

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gillian Mckenna@21:1/5 to Gillian Mckenna on Fri Jun 17 07:00:16 2022
    On Thursday, 16 June 2022 at 13:38:17 UTC+2, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Sunday, 24 October 2021 at 01:34:07 UTC+2, macken...@gmail.com wrote:
    Here are my notes on his son

    Here are my notes on the son.

    JOHN MICHELGROVE IV was born in March 1436, probably in either Sussex or Kent, to John Michelgrove (1413-1459) and Joan. It is said he apparently married Mary/Anne? Sidney about 1450 of Kent, England.

    John Michelgrove was a young man of 23 years when he died on 21 November 1459, only ten months after the death of his father John Michelgrove, esquire the elder. The later died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.] and his inquisition post mortem
    gives the age of his son and heir, John the younger as 22 years and 11 months on 22 April 1459. The inquisitions taken on the deaths of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. In Kent these were the manor of Fauconherst with the
    advowson of the church of Herst, held of the king in chief by service of one quarter of a knights fee: not a very rich property, comprising 40 acres of pasture, 80 acres of marsh and 25 acres of felled woodland and underwood, of total value per annum 46s.
    6d. With another 13s. 4d. for the church. In Sussex they held of the King in Chief a messuage, 2 virgates of land and 100 acres of pasture called Wotton by Folkington as part of the manor of Fauconherst in Kent. They also held as tenants-in-chief a toft
    and 20 acres of land at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land. The latter lands acquired by the Michelgrove family by the marriage of his grandmother Joan Whegeton.

    The main difference between the land holdings of the father and son is that the son held only two parts of Fauconherst and Wotton. At the the time of his fathers inquisition in 1458/9 the Escheator for Sussex made an assignment of dower to Joan wife
    of the late John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. John the younger is referred to as son and heir of John Senior in the assignment, but not specifically of Joan the widow.

    It is not known where he was born or died, but it is believed he resided at Michelgrove House, Sussex.

    MARY/ANNE? SIDNEY, his apparent wife, was born about 1428 of Kent, England, to William Sydney of Kingsham (1390-1449) and Cecily Michell (1390-1447.) She married John Michelgrove about 1450 of Sussex, England. Mary Sidney passed away about 1478,
    England, age 50 [further sources needed].

    However, it should be noted that the Michelgroves had acquired by 1414 a half share of the manor of Kingsham through their grandmother Joan Whegleton, who apparently was a descendant and heir of the Sydneys. The other half was held by her sister
    Margaret Scardevyle. But by 1428 William Sydney was said to possess a 1/3 share of the manor. John Michelgrove III father of the current John acted as a third party to the conveyance of this Manor to William Sydney and his heir males by Isabel St. John
    in 1445. Presumably this was a precursor of settling the manor on Mary Sydney and her husband John Michelgrove.

    John junior’s SOLE daughter and heir was Elizabeth Michelgrove who was born 28 March 1460 some 3 months after her father died.

    References
    Great Britain. Public Record Office, and H. C. Maxwell Lyte. Inquisitions And Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids: With Other Analogous Documents Preserved In the Public Record Office. A.D. 1284-1431. London: Printed for H. M. Stationery off., by
    Eyre and Spottiswoode, 18991920.v5 p157

    "Sussex Fines: 21." 25 Henry VI https://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol3/pp255-260#h3-0003. Accessed 20 Oct. 2021.
    "#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
    "#610 - Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public ... 1452-1461 Henry VI v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079547&view=1up&seq=610&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct.
    2021.

    "Catalogue description Michelgrove, John Kent, Sussex." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6544445. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#107 - Calendar of the patent rolls. 1461-1467. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026339&view=1up&seq=107&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#294 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#28 - Proofs of age of Sussex families, temp. Edw. II to Edw. IV.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hx1fkv&view=1up&seq=28&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 16 Oct. 2021.
    Notes
    MICHELGROVE . - Proof of the age of ELIZABETH , daughter and heir of John MICHELGROVE , Taken at Steyning , 29th March , 15 Edw . IV . ( 1475 ) .
    John Wolff deposes that the said Elizabeth is upwards of fourteen years old , for she was born at Ernle , on March 28th , 39 Hen . VI . ( 1461 ) ; and that Elizabeth , wife of Thomas Taweke , Esq . , one of her godmothers , told him she had been at
    her baptism at Ernle on that day .
    John Remys deposes that she is fourteen years old , because on the day abovesaid he met John Ernle , her godfather , going to Ernle church to her baptism .
    John Hunt recollects the day , because he rode with Joan Ernle , the other godmother , to Ernle church on that day to the baptism .
    John Broker — because the godfather and godmothers , and many other persons , came into his house on that day , directly after the baptism of the said Elizabeth , to eat and to drink , and they told him of it .
    Richard Millward — because on that day John Ernle , the godfather , met him and told him of the baptism .
    John Ederuhem because the horses of John Ernle , the god father , stood at his house on that day , and after the baptism he told him he was the godfather .
    William Atte Lee because he was in Ernle church on that day to hear mass . Richard French - - because in going to the church to see the baptism , he fell with his right leg against a ladder , in the parish of Ernle , and broke his leg , which he shall never forget .
    William Clement – because the day was very windy , and part of his house was unroofed by the wind .
    Nicholas Shepherd , John Mansell , and John Grey - because on that day they met a woman named Isabella Tryse , who was the midwife at the birth of the said Elizabeth , and she told them of her birth and baptism .
    Robert Comber and John Duke because they met Thomas Elyot , the chaplain of Ernle , who told them he had baptised the said Elizabeth , in Ernle church on that day . 3
    1 The writ was sued out by Sir John and the inquisition was held the day after Shelley , whom she had already , though so she was fourteen ; her husband lost no young , married . She ob . 30th June , 1513 , time therefore in acquiring her or her and
    was buried at Clapham .
    3 The writ was dated 8th Nov . 1474 , 3 Inq . 15 Edw . IV . No . 66 ..

    https://www.sussexrecordsociety.org/olb/srs014/
    Citation
    Sussex Record Society Volume 14 page 201.
    Notes
    JOHN SHELLEY,
    esq.
    Vol. 46, No. 14.
    Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 3 Jan. 18 Hen. VIII.
    Heir, son William Shelley, the Judge, aged 48 and more.
    Lands. Manor of Applesham, advowson of and lands in Combes settled 26 Sept. 18 Hen. VIII. on Alice, wife of William Shelley his son and heir, remainder to William S. and his heirs. Moiety of manor and advowson of Denton in Denton and "Sakam" in
    Shermanbury also settled on said William and Alice. Manor of Hoope in Rudgwick settled 16 Hen. VIII. on himself for life and afterwards on Richard Shelley and Mary his wife. Lands called "Lymeborn" in Fittleworth,"Wayhurst" in Rudgwick, "la Lee" in
    Clapham, and lands in Storrington, Salvington, Horsbroke, Pokkesmore, Shermanbury, North Mundham, Slinfold, Middleton and Bensted.


    ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15.
    Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII.
    Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more.
    Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Bulshams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near Fakington. and advowson of the
    chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called "Wantley" in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the sisters and heirs apparent of
    Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.
    Hi All,

    I was very pleased to find these Michelgrove messages and I have been reading them with great interest. I am researching the Lewknor line of Sussex. Bennet Lewknor (whose 2nd husband was Thomas Twisden, direct ancestor) was the daughter of Richard
    Lewknor of Sherfield Sussex and "unknown" daughter of Michelgrove. This information comes from "Sussex Archaeological Collections, History and Antiquities of the County". Looking at the site "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", I can see the the
    mysterious Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. Some sources are given but I have not been able to check them. On Wikitrees, there is a mass of information about the Lewknors and Twisdens as they descend from William de
    Huntingfield one of the Magna Carta Barons.

    I am a bit confused as you say in the inquisition post mortem of John Michelgrove III (died 1458/9) his widow was Joan?? I thought (according to the above messages) his wife was Mary/Anne d 1478.

    According to the website "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", John Michelgrove & Mary Sidney have 2 daus, Elizabeth & unknown. No mention of son John d1459. I think maybe the Elizabeth is the dau of John IV. A mistake maybe. This tree is referred
    to a lot in Wikitrees.

    Going back to the Joan & Mary/Anne Sidney question, am I reading this incorrectly?

    Thanks in advance

    Gillian

    Hi Again,

    Yes I think that I read the previous messages incorrectly! Sorry about that.

    For my Lewknor line, the mysterious Miss Michelgrove is said to be the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. However, the sole descendent of John and Mary was Elizabeth their daughter. I do not know how my Miss Michelgrove fits in. It would seem
    from the information given above that maybe the family tree in the Visitation of Sussex (Lewknor tree) is incorrect? Maybe Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John senior and Joan? I have been playing around with the dates and both scenarios could be
    possible I think.

    Does anyone have any information?

    Thanks

    Gillian

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Will Johnson@21:1/5 to Gillian Mckenna on Mon Jun 20 05:56:17 2022
    On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 7:00:20 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Thursday, 16 June 2022 at 13:38:17 UTC+2, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Sunday, 24 October 2021 at 01:34:07 UTC+2, macken...@gmail.com wrote:
    Here are my notes on his son

    Here are my notes on the son.

    JOHN MICHELGROVE IV was born in March 1436, probably in either Sussex or Kent, to John Michelgrove (1413-1459) and Joan. It is said he apparently married Mary/Anne? Sidney about 1450 of Kent, England.

    John Michelgrove was a young man of 23 years when he died on 21 November 1459, only ten months after the death of his father John Michelgrove, esquire the elder. The later died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.] and his inquisition post mortem
    gives the age of his son and heir, John the younger as 22 years and 11 months on 22 April 1459. The inquisitions taken on the deaths of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. In Kent these were the manor of Fauconherst with the
    advowson of the church of Herst, held of the king in chief by service of one quarter of a knights fee: not a very rich property, comprising 40 acres of pasture, 80 acres of marsh and 25 acres of felled woodland and underwood, of total value per annum 46s.
    6d. With another 13s. 4d. for the church. In Sussex they held of the King in Chief a messuage, 2 virgates of land and 100 acres of pasture called Wotton by Folkington as part of the manor of Fauconherst in Kent. They also held as tenants-in-chief a toft
    and 20 acres of land at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land. The latter lands acquired by the Michelgrove family by the marriage of his grandmother Joan Whegeton.

    The main difference between the land holdings of the father and son is that the son held only two parts of Fauconherst and Wotton. At the the time of his fathers inquisition in 1458/9 the Escheator for Sussex made an assignment of dower to Joan
    wife of the late John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. John the younger is referred to as son and heir of John Senior in the assignment, but not specifically of Joan the widow.

    It is not known where he was born or died, but it is believed he resided at Michelgrove House, Sussex.

    MARY/ANNE? SIDNEY, his apparent wife, was born about 1428 of Kent, England, to William Sydney of Kingsham (1390-1449) and Cecily Michell (1390-1447.) She married John Michelgrove about 1450 of Sussex, England. Mary Sidney passed away about 1478,
    England, age 50 [further sources needed].

    However, it should be noted that the Michelgroves had acquired by 1414 a half share of the manor of Kingsham through their grandmother Joan Whegleton, who apparently was a descendant and heir of the Sydneys. The other half was held by her sister
    Margaret Scardevyle. But by 1428 William Sydney was said to possess a 1/3 share of the manor. John Michelgrove III father of the current John acted as a third party to the conveyance of this Manor to William Sydney and his heir males by Isabel St. John
    in 1445. Presumably this was a precursor of settling the manor on Mary Sydney and her husband John Michelgrove.

    John junior’s SOLE daughter and heir was Elizabeth Michelgrove who was born 28 March 1460 some 3 months after her father died.

    References
    Great Britain. Public Record Office, and H. C. Maxwell Lyte. Inquisitions And Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids: With Other Analogous Documents Preserved In the Public Record Office. A.D. 1284-1431. London: Printed for H. M. Stationery off., by
    Eyre and Spottiswoode, 18991920.v5 p157

    "Sussex Fines: 21." 25 Henry VI https://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol3/pp255-260#h3-0003. Accessed 20 Oct. 2021.
    "#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
    "#610 - Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public ... 1452-1461 Henry VI v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079547&view=1up&seq=610&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct.
    2021.

    "Catalogue description Michelgrove, John Kent, Sussex." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6544445. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#107 - Calendar of the patent rolls. 1461-1467. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026339&view=1up&seq=107&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#294 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#28 - Proofs of age of Sussex families, temp. Edw. II to Edw. IV.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hx1fkv&view=1up&seq=28&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 16 Oct. 2021.
    Notes
    MICHELGROVE . - Proof of the age of ELIZABETH , daughter and heir of John MICHELGROVE , Taken at Steyning , 29th March , 15 Edw . IV . ( 1475 ) .
    John Wolff deposes that the said Elizabeth is upwards of fourteen years old , for she was born at Ernle , on March 28th , 39 Hen . VI . ( 1461 ) ; and that Elizabeth , wife of Thomas Taweke , Esq . , one of her godmothers , told him she had been at
    her baptism at Ernle on that day .
    John Remys deposes that she is fourteen years old , because on the day abovesaid he met John Ernle , her godfather , going to Ernle church to her baptism .
    John Hunt recollects the day , because he rode with Joan Ernle , the other godmother , to Ernle church on that day to the baptism .
    John Broker — because the godfather and godmothers , and many other persons , came into his house on that day , directly after the baptism of the said Elizabeth , to eat and to drink , and they told him of it .
    Richard Millward — because on that day John Ernle , the godfather , met him and told him of the baptism .
    John Ederuhem because the horses of John Ernle , the god father , stood at his house on that day , and after the baptism he told him he was the godfather .
    William Atte Lee because he was in Ernle church on that day to hear mass .
    Richard French - - because in going to the church to see the baptism , he fell with his right leg against a ladder , in the parish of Ernle , and broke his leg , which he shall never forget .
    William Clement – because the day was very windy , and part of his house was unroofed by the wind .
    Nicholas Shepherd , John Mansell , and John Grey - because on that day they met a woman named Isabella Tryse , who was the midwife at the birth of the said Elizabeth , and she told them of her birth and baptism .
    Robert Comber and John Duke because they met Thomas Elyot , the chaplain of Ernle , who told them he had baptised the said Elizabeth , in Ernle church on that day . 3
    1 The writ was sued out by Sir John and the inquisition was held the day after Shelley , whom she had already , though so she was fourteen ; her husband lost no young , married . She ob . 30th June , 1513 , time therefore in acquiring her or her
    and was buried at Clapham .
    3 The writ was dated 8th Nov . 1474 , 3 Inq . 15 Edw . IV . No . 66 ..

    https://www.sussexrecordsociety.org/olb/srs014/
    Citation
    Sussex Record Society Volume 14 page 201.
    Notes
    JOHN SHELLEY,
    esq.
    Vol. 46, No. 14.
    Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 3 Jan. 18 Hen. VIII.
    Heir, son William Shelley, the Judge, aged 48 and more.
    Lands. Manor of Applesham, advowson of and lands in Combes settled 26 Sept. 18 Hen. VIII. on Alice, wife of William Shelley his son and heir, remainder to William S. and his heirs. Moiety of manor and advowson of Denton in Denton and "Sakam" in
    Shermanbury also settled on said William and Alice. Manor of Hoope in Rudgwick settled 16 Hen. VIII. on himself for life and afterwards on Richard Shelley and Mary his wife. Lands called "Lymeborn" in Fittleworth,"Wayhurst" in Rudgwick, "la Lee" in
    Clapham, and lands in Storrington, Salvington, Horsbroke, Pokkesmore, Shermanbury, North Mundham, Slinfold, Middleton and Bensted.


    ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15.
    Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII.
    Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more.
    Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Bulshams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near Fakington. and advowson of the
    chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called "Wantley" in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the sisters and heirs apparent of
    Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.
    Hi All,

    I was very pleased to find these Michelgrove messages and I have been reading them with great interest. I am researching the Lewknor line of Sussex. Bennet Lewknor (whose 2nd husband was Thomas Twisden, direct ancestor) was the daughter of Richard
    Lewknor of Sherfield Sussex and "unknown" daughter of Michelgrove. This information comes from "Sussex Archaeological Collections, History and Antiquities of the County". Looking at the site "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", I can see the the
    mysterious Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. Some sources are given but I have not been able to check them. On Wikitrees, there is a mass of information about the Lewknors and Twisdens as they descend from William de
    Huntingfield one of the Magna Carta Barons.

    I am a bit confused as you say in the inquisition post mortem of John Michelgrove III (died 1458/9) his widow was Joan?? I thought (according to the above messages) his wife was Mary/Anne d 1478.

    According to the website "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", John Michelgrove & Mary Sidney have 2 daus, Elizabeth & unknown. No mention of son John d1459. I think maybe the Elizabeth is the dau of John IV. A mistake maybe. This tree is
    referred to a lot in Wikitrees.

    Going back to the Joan & Mary/Anne Sidney question, am I reading this incorrectly?

    Thanks in advance

    Gillian
    Hi Again,

    Yes I think that I read the previous messages incorrectly! Sorry about that.

    For my Lewknor line, the mysterious Miss Michelgrove is said to be the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. However, the sole descendent of John and Mary was Elizabeth their daughter. I do not know how my Miss Michelgrove fits in. It would
    seem from the information given above that maybe the family tree in the Visitation of Sussex (Lewknor tree) is incorrect? Maybe Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John senior and Joan? I have been playing around with the dates and both scenarios could
    be possible I think.

    Does anyone have any information?

    Thanks

    Gillian

    Bennet Lewknor was the daughter of Richard /Lewknor/ of Brambletye
    He in turn was the son of Thomas /Lewknor/ of Horsted Keynes, Sussex; Knt by Philippe /Dallingridge/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gillian Mckenna@21:1/5 to wjhons...@gmail.com on Wed Jun 22 10:18:55 2022
    On Monday, 20 June 2022 at 14:56:21 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 7:00:20 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Thursday, 16 June 2022 at 13:38:17 UTC+2, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Sunday, 24 October 2021 at 01:34:07 UTC+2, macken...@gmail.com wrote:
    Here are my notes on his son

    Here are my notes on the son.

    JOHN MICHELGROVE IV was born in March 1436, probably in either Sussex or Kent, to John Michelgrove (1413-1459) and Joan. It is said he apparently married Mary/Anne? Sidney about 1450 of Kent, England.

    John Michelgrove was a young man of 23 years when he died on 21 November 1459, only ten months after the death of his father John Michelgrove, esquire the elder. The later died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.] and his inquisition post
    mortem gives the age of his son and heir, John the younger as 22 years and 11 months on 22 April 1459. The inquisitions taken on the deaths of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. In Kent these were the manor of Fauconherst
    with the advowson of the church of Herst, held of the king in chief by service of one quarter of a knights fee: not a very rich property, comprising 40 acres of pasture, 80 acres of marsh and 25 acres of felled woodland and underwood, of total value per
    annum 46s. 6d. With another 13s. 4d. for the church. In Sussex they held of the King in Chief a messuage, 2 virgates of land and 100 acres of pasture called Wotton by Folkington as part of the manor of Fauconherst in Kent. They also held as tenants-in-
    chief a toft and 20 acres of land at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land. The latter lands acquired by the Michelgrove family by the marriage of his grandmother
    Joan Whegeton.

    The main difference between the land holdings of the father and son is that the son held only two parts of Fauconherst and Wotton. At the the time of his fathers inquisition in 1458/9 the Escheator for Sussex made an assignment of dower to Joan
    wife of the late John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. John the younger is referred to as son and heir of John Senior in the assignment, but not specifically of Joan the widow.

    It is not known where he was born or died, but it is believed he resided at Michelgrove House, Sussex.

    MARY/ANNE? SIDNEY, his apparent wife, was born about 1428 of Kent, England, to William Sydney of Kingsham (1390-1449) and Cecily Michell (1390-1447.) She married John Michelgrove about 1450 of Sussex, England. Mary Sidney passed away about 1478,
    England, age 50 [further sources needed].

    However, it should be noted that the Michelgroves had acquired by 1414 a half share of the manor of Kingsham through their grandmother Joan Whegleton, who apparently was a descendant and heir of the Sydneys. The other half was held by her sister
    Margaret Scardevyle. But by 1428 William Sydney was said to possess a 1/3 share of the manor. John Michelgrove III father of the current John acted as a third party to the conveyance of this Manor to William Sydney and his heir males by Isabel St. John
    in 1445. Presumably this was a precursor of settling the manor on Mary Sydney and her husband John Michelgrove.

    John junior’s SOLE daughter and heir was Elizabeth Michelgrove who was born 28 March 1460 some 3 months after her father died.

    References
    Great Britain. Public Record Office, and H. C. Maxwell Lyte. Inquisitions And Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids: With Other Analogous Documents Preserved In the Public Record Office. A.D. 1284-1431. London: Printed for H. M. Stationery off., by
    Eyre and Spottiswoode, 18991920.v5 p157

    "Sussex Fines: 21." 25 Henry VI https://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol3/pp255-260#h3-0003. Accessed 20 Oct. 2021.
    "#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
    "#610 - Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public ... 1452-1461 Henry VI v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079547&view=1up&seq=610&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct.
    2021.

    "Catalogue description Michelgrove, John Kent, Sussex." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6544445. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#107 - Calendar of the patent rolls. 1461-1467. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026339&view=1up&seq=107&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#294 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#28 - Proofs of age of Sussex families, temp. Edw. II to Edw. IV.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hx1fkv&view=1up&seq=28&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 16 Oct. 2021.
    Notes
    MICHELGROVE . - Proof of the age of ELIZABETH , daughter and heir of John MICHELGROVE , Taken at Steyning , 29th March , 15 Edw . IV . ( 1475 ) .
    John Wolff deposes that the said Elizabeth is upwards of fourteen years old , for she was born at Ernle , on March 28th , 39 Hen . VI . ( 1461 ) ; and that Elizabeth , wife of Thomas Taweke , Esq . , one of her godmothers , told him she had been
    at her baptism at Ernle on that day .
    John Remys deposes that she is fourteen years old , because on the day abovesaid he met John Ernle , her godfather , going to Ernle church to her baptism .
    John Hunt recollects the day , because he rode with Joan Ernle , the other godmother , to Ernle church on that day to the baptism .
    John Broker — because the godfather and godmothers , and many other persons , came into his house on that day , directly after the baptism of the said Elizabeth , to eat and to drink , and they told him of it .
    Richard Millward — because on that day John Ernle , the godfather , met him and told him of the baptism .
    John Ederuhem because the horses of John Ernle , the god father , stood at his house on that day , and after the baptism he told him he was the godfather .
    William Atte Lee because he was in Ernle church on that day to hear mass .
    Richard French - - because in going to the church to see the baptism , he fell with his right leg against a ladder , in the parish of Ernle , and broke his leg , which he shall never forget .
    William Clement – because the day was very windy , and part of his house was unroofed by the wind .
    Nicholas Shepherd , John Mansell , and John Grey - because on that day they met a woman named Isabella Tryse , who was the midwife at the birth of the said Elizabeth , and she told them of her birth and baptism .
    Robert Comber and John Duke because they met Thomas Elyot , the chaplain of Ernle , who told them he had baptised the said Elizabeth , in Ernle church on that day . 3
    1 The writ was sued out by Sir John and the inquisition was held the day after Shelley , whom she had already , though so she was fourteen ; her husband lost no young , married . She ob . 30th June , 1513 , time therefore in acquiring her or her
    and was buried at Clapham .
    3 The writ was dated 8th Nov . 1474 , 3 Inq . 15 Edw . IV . No . 66 ..

    https://www.sussexrecordsociety.org/olb/srs014/
    Citation
    Sussex Record Society Volume 14 page 201.
    Notes
    JOHN SHELLEY,
    esq.
    Vol. 46, No. 14.
    Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 3 Jan. 18 Hen. VIII.
    Heir, son William Shelley, the Judge, aged 48 and more.
    Lands. Manor of Applesham, advowson of and lands in Combes settled 26 Sept. 18 Hen. VIII. on Alice, wife of William Shelley his son and heir, remainder to William S. and his heirs. Moiety of manor and advowson of Denton in Denton and "Sakam" in
    Shermanbury also settled on said William and Alice. Manor of Hoope in Rudgwick settled 16 Hen. VIII. on himself for life and afterwards on Richard Shelley and Mary his wife. Lands called "Lymeborn" in Fittleworth,"Wayhurst" in Rudgwick, "la Lee" in
    Clapham, and lands in Storrington, Salvington, Horsbroke, Pokkesmore, Shermanbury, North Mundham, Slinfold, Middleton and Bensted.


    ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15.
    Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII.
    Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more.
    Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Bulshams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near Fakington. and advowson of the
    chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called "Wantley" in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the sisters and heirs apparent of
    Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.
    Hi All,

    I was very pleased to find these Michelgrove messages and I have been reading them with great interest. I am researching the Lewknor line of Sussex. Bennet Lewknor (whose 2nd husband was Thomas Twisden, direct ancestor) was the daughter of Richard
    Lewknor of Sherfield Sussex and "unknown" daughter of Michelgrove. This information comes from "Sussex Archaeological Collections, History and Antiquities of the County". Looking at the site "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", I can see the the
    mysterious Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. Some sources are given but I have not been able to check them. On Wikitrees, there is a mass of information about the Lewknors and Twisdens as they descend from William de
    Huntingfield one of the Magna Carta Barons.

    I am a bit confused as you say in the inquisition post mortem of John Michelgrove III (died 1458/9) his widow was Joan?? I thought (according to the above messages) his wife was Mary/Anne d 1478.

    According to the website "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", John Michelgrove & Mary Sidney have 2 daus, Elizabeth & unknown. No mention of son John d1459. I think maybe the Elizabeth is the dau of John IV. A mistake maybe. This tree is
    referred to a lot in Wikitrees.

    Going back to the Joan & Mary/Anne Sidney question, am I reading this incorrectly?

    Thanks in advance

    Gillian
    Hi Again,

    Yes I think that I read the previous messages incorrectly! Sorry about that.

    For my Lewknor line, the mysterious Miss Michelgrove is said to be the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. However, the sole descendent of John and Mary was Elizabeth their daughter. I do not know how my Miss Michelgrove fits in. It would
    seem from the information given above that maybe the family tree in the Visitation of Sussex (Lewknor tree) is incorrect? Maybe Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John senior and Joan? I have been playing around with the dates and both scenarios could
    be possible I think.

    Does anyone have any information?

    Thanks

    Gillian
    Bennet Lewknor was the daughter of Richard /Lewknor/ of Brambletye
    He in turn was the son of Thomas /Lewknor/ of Horsted Keynes, Sussex; Knt by Philippe /Dallingridge/


    Hi
    I have Richard Lewknor of Sherfield and not Brambletyre and Richard was the son of Roger Lewknor and Eleanor Camoys.
    Sussex Archaeological Collections.
    Gillian

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Will Johnson@21:1/5 to Gillian Mckenna on Wed Jun 22 13:11:26 2022
    On Wednesday, June 22, 2022 at 10:18:59 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Monday, 20 June 2022 at 14:56:21 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 7:00:20 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Thursday, 16 June 2022 at 13:38:17 UTC+2, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Sunday, 24 October 2021 at 01:34:07 UTC+2, macken...@gmail.com wrote:
    Here are my notes on his son

    Here are my notes on the son.

    JOHN MICHELGROVE IV was born in March 1436, probably in either Sussex or Kent, to John Michelgrove (1413-1459) and Joan. It is said he apparently married Mary/Anne? Sidney about 1450 of Kent, England.

    John Michelgrove was a young man of 23 years when he died on 21 November 1459, only ten months after the death of his father John Michelgrove, esquire the elder. The later died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.] and his inquisition post
    mortem gives the age of his son and heir, John the younger as 22 years and 11 months on 22 April 1459. The inquisitions taken on the deaths of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. In Kent these were the manor of Fauconherst
    with the advowson of the church of Herst, held of the king in chief by service of one quarter of a knights fee: not a very rich property, comprising 40 acres of pasture, 80 acres of marsh and 25 acres of felled woodland and underwood, of total value per
    annum 46s. 6d. With another 13s. 4d. for the church. In Sussex they held of the King in Chief a messuage, 2 virgates of land and 100 acres of pasture called Wotton by Folkington as part of the manor of Fauconherst in Kent. They also held as tenants-in-
    chief a toft and 20 acres of land at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land. The latter lands acquired by the Michelgrove family by the marriage of his grandmother
    Joan Whegeton.

    The main difference between the land holdings of the father and son is that the son held only two parts of Fauconherst and Wotton. At the the time of his fathers inquisition in 1458/9 the Escheator for Sussex made an assignment of dower to Joan
    wife of the late John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. John the younger is referred to as son and heir of John Senior in the assignment, but not specifically of Joan the widow.

    It is not known where he was born or died, but it is believed he resided at Michelgrove House, Sussex.

    MARY/ANNE? SIDNEY, his apparent wife, was born about 1428 of Kent, England, to William Sydney of Kingsham (1390-1449) and Cecily Michell (1390-1447.) She married John Michelgrove about 1450 of Sussex, England. Mary Sidney passed away about 1478,
    England, age 50 [further sources needed].

    However, it should be noted that the Michelgroves had acquired by 1414 a half share of the manor of Kingsham through their grandmother Joan Whegleton, who apparently was a descendant and heir of the Sydneys. The other half was held by her
    sister Margaret Scardevyle. But by 1428 William Sydney was said to possess a 1/3 share of the manor. John Michelgrove III father of the current John acted as a third party to the conveyance of this Manor to William Sydney and his heir males by Isabel St.
    John in 1445. Presumably this was a precursor of settling the manor on Mary Sydney and her husband John Michelgrove.

    John junior’s SOLE daughter and heir was Elizabeth Michelgrove who was born 28 March 1460 some 3 months after her father died.

    References
    Great Britain. Public Record Office, and H. C. Maxwell Lyte. Inquisitions And Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids: With Other Analogous Documents Preserved In the Public Record Office. A.D. 1284-1431. London: Printed for H. M. Stationery off.,
    by Eyre and Spottiswoode, 18991920.v5 p157

    "Sussex Fines: 21." 25 Henry VI https://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol3/pp255-260#h3-0003. Accessed 20 Oct. 2021.
    "#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
    "#610 - Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public ... 1452-1461 Henry VI v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079547&view=1up&seq=610&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17
    Oct. 2021.

    "Catalogue description Michelgrove, John Kent, Sussex." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6544445. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#107 - Calendar of the patent rolls. 1461-1467. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026339&view=1up&seq=107&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#294 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#28 - Proofs of age of Sussex families, temp. Edw. II to Edw. IV.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hx1fkv&view=1up&seq=28&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 16 Oct. 2021.
    Notes
    MICHELGROVE . - Proof of the age of ELIZABETH , daughter and heir of John MICHELGROVE , Taken at Steyning , 29th March , 15 Edw . IV . ( 1475 ) .
    John Wolff deposes that the said Elizabeth is upwards of fourteen years old , for she was born at Ernle , on March 28th , 39 Hen . VI . ( 1461 ) ; and that Elizabeth , wife of Thomas Taweke , Esq . , one of her godmothers , told him she had
    been at her baptism at Ernle on that day .
    John Remys deposes that she is fourteen years old , because on the day abovesaid he met John Ernle , her godfather , going to Ernle church to her baptism .
    John Hunt recollects the day , because he rode with Joan Ernle , the other godmother , to Ernle church on that day to the baptism .
    John Broker — because the godfather and godmothers , and many other persons , came into his house on that day , directly after the baptism of the said Elizabeth , to eat and to drink , and they told him of it .
    Richard Millward — because on that day John Ernle , the godfather , met him and told him of the baptism .
    John Ederuhem because the horses of John Ernle , the god father , stood at his house on that day , and after the baptism he told him he was the godfather .
    William Atte Lee because he was in Ernle church on that day to hear mass .
    Richard French - - because in going to the church to see the baptism , he fell with his right leg against a ladder , in the parish of Ernle , and broke his leg , which he shall never forget .
    William Clement – because the day was very windy , and part of his house was unroofed by the wind .
    Nicholas Shepherd , John Mansell , and John Grey - because on that day they met a woman named Isabella Tryse , who was the midwife at the birth of the said Elizabeth , and she told them of her birth and baptism .
    Robert Comber and John Duke because they met Thomas Elyot , the chaplain of Ernle , who told them he had baptised the said Elizabeth , in Ernle church on that day . 3
    1 The writ was sued out by Sir John and the inquisition was held the day after Shelley , whom she had already , though so she was fourteen ; her husband lost no young , married . She ob . 30th June , 1513 , time therefore in acquiring her or
    her and was buried at Clapham .
    3 The writ was dated 8th Nov . 1474 , 3 Inq . 15 Edw . IV . No . 66 ..

    https://www.sussexrecordsociety.org/olb/srs014/
    Citation
    Sussex Record Society Volume 14 page 201.
    Notes
    JOHN SHELLEY,
    esq.
    Vol. 46, No. 14.
    Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 3 Jan. 18 Hen. VIII.
    Heir, son William Shelley, the Judge, aged 48 and more.
    Lands. Manor of Applesham, advowson of and lands in Combes settled 26 Sept. 18 Hen. VIII. on Alice, wife of William Shelley his son and heir, remainder to William S. and his heirs. Moiety of manor and advowson of Denton in Denton and "Sakam" in
    Shermanbury also settled on said William and Alice. Manor of Hoope in Rudgwick settled 16 Hen. VIII. on himself for life and afterwards on Richard Shelley and Mary his wife. Lands called "Lymeborn" in Fittleworth,"Wayhurst" in Rudgwick, "la Lee" in
    Clapham, and lands in Storrington, Salvington, Horsbroke, Pokkesmore, Shermanbury, North Mundham, Slinfold, Middleton and Bensted.


    ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15.
    Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII.
    Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more.
    Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Bulshams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near Fakington. and advowson of
    the chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called "Wantley" in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the sisters and heirs apparent of
    Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.
    Hi All,

    I was very pleased to find these Michelgrove messages and I have been reading them with great interest. I am researching the Lewknor line of Sussex. Bennet Lewknor (whose 2nd husband was Thomas Twisden, direct ancestor) was the daughter of
    Richard Lewknor of Sherfield Sussex and "unknown" daughter of Michelgrove. This information comes from "Sussex Archaeological Collections, History and Antiquities of the County". Looking at the site "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", I can see
    the the mysterious Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. Some sources are given but I have not been able to check them. On Wikitrees, there is a mass of information about the Lewknors and Twisdens as they descend from
    William de Huntingfield one of the Magna Carta Barons.

    I am a bit confused as you say in the inquisition post mortem of John Michelgrove III (died 1458/9) his widow was Joan?? I thought (according to the above messages) his wife was Mary/Anne d 1478.

    According to the website "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", John Michelgrove & Mary Sidney have 2 daus, Elizabeth & unknown. No mention of son John d1459. I think maybe the Elizabeth is the dau of John IV. A mistake maybe. This tree is
    referred to a lot in Wikitrees.

    Going back to the Joan & Mary/Anne Sidney question, am I reading this incorrectly?

    Thanks in advance

    Gillian
    Hi Again,

    Yes I think that I read the previous messages incorrectly! Sorry about that.

    For my Lewknor line, the mysterious Miss Michelgrove is said to be the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. However, the sole descendent of John and Mary was Elizabeth their daughter. I do not know how my Miss Michelgrove fits in. It would
    seem from the information given above that maybe the family tree in the Visitation of Sussex (Lewknor tree) is incorrect? Maybe Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John senior and Joan? I have been playing around with the dates and both scenarios could
    be possible I think.

    Does anyone have any information?

    Thanks

    Gillian
    Bennet Lewknor was the daughter of Richard /Lewknor/ of Brambletye
    He in turn was the son of Thomas /Lewknor/ of Horsted Keynes, Sussex; Knt by Philippe /Dallingridge/
    Hi
    I have Richard Lewknor of Sherfield and not Brambletyre and Richard was the son of Roger Lewknor and Eleanor Camoys.
    Sussex Archaeological Collections.
    Gillian

    Could you specify an exact source citation so I can look it up and see what it actually states

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From daveR@21:1/5 to wjhons...@gmail.com on Thu Jun 23 13:52:55 2022
    On Wednesday, June 22, 2022 at 9:11:29 PM UTC+1, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wednesday, June 22, 2022 at 10:18:59 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Monday, 20 June 2022 at 14:56:21 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 7:00:20 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Thursday, 16 June 2022 at 13:38:17 UTC+2, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Sunday, 24 October 2021 at 01:34:07 UTC+2, macken...@gmail.com wrote:
    Here are my notes on his son

    Here are my notes on the son.

    JOHN MICHELGROVE IV was born in March 1436, probably in either Sussex or Kent, to John Michelgrove (1413-1459) and Joan. It is said he apparently married Mary/Anne? Sidney about 1450 of Kent, England.

    John Michelgrove was a young man of 23 years when he died on 21 November 1459, only ten months after the death of his father John Michelgrove, esquire the elder. The later died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.] and his inquisition post
    mortem gives the age of his son and heir, John the younger as 22 years and 11 months on 22 April 1459. The inquisitions taken on the deaths of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. In Kent these were the manor of Fauconherst
    with the advowson of the church of Herst, held of the king in chief by service of one quarter of a knights fee: not a very rich property, comprising 40 acres of pasture, 80 acres of marsh and 25 acres of felled woodland and underwood, of total value per
    annum 46s. 6d. With another 13s. 4d. for the church. In Sussex they held of the King in Chief a messuage, 2 virgates of land and 100 acres of pasture called Wotton by Folkington as part of the manor of Fauconherst in Kent. They also held as tenants-in-
    chief a toft and 20 acres of land at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land. The latter lands acquired by the Michelgrove family by the marriage of his grandmother
    Joan Whegeton.

    The main difference between the land holdings of the father and son is that the son held only two parts of Fauconherst and Wotton. At the the time of his fathers inquisition in 1458/9 the Escheator for Sussex made an assignment of dower to
    Joan wife of the late John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. John the younger is referred to as son and heir of John Senior in the assignment, but not specifically of Joan the widow.

    It is not known where he was born or died, but it is believed he resided at Michelgrove House, Sussex.

    MARY/ANNE? SIDNEY, his apparent wife, was born about 1428 of Kent, England, to William Sydney of Kingsham (1390-1449) and Cecily Michell (1390-1447.) She married John Michelgrove about 1450 of Sussex, England. Mary Sidney passed away about
    1478, England, age 50 [further sources needed].

    However, it should be noted that the Michelgroves had acquired by 1414 a half share of the manor of Kingsham through their grandmother Joan Whegleton, who apparently was a descendant and heir of the Sydneys. The other half was held by her
    sister Margaret Scardevyle. But by 1428 William Sydney was said to possess a 1/3 share of the manor. John Michelgrove III father of the current John acted as a third party to the conveyance of this Manor to William Sydney and his heir males by Isabel St.
    John in 1445. Presumably this was a precursor of settling the manor on Mary Sydney and her husband John Michelgrove.

    John junior’s SOLE daughter and heir was Elizabeth Michelgrove who was born 28 March 1460 some 3 months after her father died.

    References
    Great Britain. Public Record Office, and H. C. Maxwell Lyte. Inquisitions And Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids: With Other Analogous Documents Preserved In the Public Record Office. A.D. 1284-1431. London: Printed for H. M. Stationery off.,
    by Eyre and Spottiswoode, 18991920.v5 p157

    "Sussex Fines: 21." 25 Henry VI https://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol3/pp255-260#h3-0003. Accessed 20 Oct. 2021.
    "#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
    "#610 - Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public ... 1452-1461 Henry VI v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079547&view=1up&seq=610&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17
    Oct. 2021.

    "Catalogue description Michelgrove, John Kent, Sussex." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6544445. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#107 - Calendar of the patent rolls. 1461-1467. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026339&view=1up&seq=107&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#294 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.


    "#28 - Proofs of age of Sussex families, temp. Edw. II to Edw. IV.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hx1fkv&view=1up&seq=28&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 16 Oct. 2021.
    Notes
    MICHELGROVE . - Proof of the age of ELIZABETH , daughter and heir of John MICHELGROVE , Taken at Steyning , 29th March , 15 Edw . IV . ( 1475 ) .
    John Wolff deposes that the said Elizabeth is upwards of fourteen years old , for she was born at Ernle , on March 28th , 39 Hen . VI . ( 1461 ) ; and that Elizabeth , wife of Thomas Taweke , Esq . , one of her godmothers , told him she had
    been at her baptism at Ernle on that day .
    John Remys deposes that she is fourteen years old , because on the day abovesaid he met John Ernle , her godfather , going to Ernle church to her baptism .
    John Hunt recollects the day , because he rode with Joan Ernle , the other godmother , to Ernle church on that day to the baptism .
    John Broker — because the godfather and godmothers , and many other persons , came into his house on that day , directly after the baptism of the said Elizabeth , to eat and to drink , and they told him of it .
    Richard Millward — because on that day John Ernle , the godfather , met him and told him of the baptism .
    John Ederuhem because the horses of John Ernle , the god father , stood at his house on that day , and after the baptism he told him he was the godfather .
    William Atte Lee because he was in Ernle church on that day to hear mass .
    Richard French - - because in going to the church to see the baptism , he fell with his right leg against a ladder , in the parish of Ernle , and broke his leg , which he shall never forget .
    William Clement – because the day was very windy , and part of his house was unroofed by the wind .
    Nicholas Shepherd , John Mansell , and John Grey - because on that day they met a woman named Isabella Tryse , who was the midwife at the birth of the said Elizabeth , and she told them of her birth and baptism .
    Robert Comber and John Duke because they met Thomas Elyot , the chaplain of Ernle , who told them he had baptised the said Elizabeth , in Ernle church on that day . 3
    1 The writ was sued out by Sir John and the inquisition was held the day after Shelley , whom she had already , though so she was fourteen ; her husband lost no young , married . She ob . 30th June , 1513 , time therefore in acquiring her or
    her and was buried at Clapham .
    3 The writ was dated 8th Nov . 1474 , 3 Inq . 15 Edw . IV . No . 66 ..

    https://www.sussexrecordsociety.org/olb/srs014/
    Citation
    Sussex Record Society Volume 14 page 201.
    Notes
    JOHN SHELLEY,
    esq.
    Vol. 46, No. 14.
    Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 3 Jan. 18 Hen. VIII.
    Heir, son William Shelley, the Judge, aged 48 and more.
    Lands. Manor of Applesham, advowson of and lands in Combes settled 26 Sept. 18 Hen. VIII. on Alice, wife of William Shelley his son and heir, remainder to William S. and his heirs. Moiety of manor and advowson of Denton in Denton and "Sakam"
    in Shermanbury also settled on said William and Alice. Manor of Hoope in Rudgwick settled 16 Hen. VIII. on himself for life and afterwards on Richard Shelley and Mary his wife. Lands called "Lymeborn" in Fittleworth,"Wayhurst" in Rudgwick, "la Lee" in
    Clapham, and lands in Storrington, Salvington, Horsbroke, Pokkesmore, Shermanbury, North Mundham, Slinfold, Middleton and Bensted.


    ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15.
    Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII.
    Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more.
    Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Bulshams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near Fakington. and advowson of
    the chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called "Wantley" in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the sisters and heirs apparent of
    Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.
    Hi All,

    I was very pleased to find these Michelgrove messages and I have been reading them with great interest. I am researching the Lewknor line of Sussex. Bennet Lewknor (whose 2nd husband was Thomas Twisden, direct ancestor) was the daughter of
    Richard Lewknor of Sherfield Sussex and "unknown" daughter of Michelgrove. This information comes from "Sussex Archaeological Collections, History and Antiquities of the County". Looking at the site "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", I can see
    the the mysterious Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. Some sources are given but I have not been able to check them. On Wikitrees, there is a mass of information about the Lewknors and Twisdens as they descend from
    William de Huntingfield one of the Magna Carta Barons.

    I am a bit confused as you say in the inquisition post mortem of John Michelgrove III (died 1458/9) his widow was Joan?? I thought (according to the above messages) his wife was Mary/Anne d 1478.

    According to the website "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", John Michelgrove & Mary Sidney have 2 daus, Elizabeth & unknown. No mention of son John d1459. I think maybe the Elizabeth is the dau of John IV. A mistake maybe. This tree is
    referred to a lot in Wikitrees.

    Going back to the Joan & Mary/Anne Sidney question, am I reading this incorrectly?

    Thanks in advance

    Gillian
    Hi Again,

    Yes I think that I read the previous messages incorrectly! Sorry about that.

    For my Lewknor line, the mysterious Miss Michelgrove is said to be the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. However, the sole descendent of John and Mary was Elizabeth their daughter. I do not know how my Miss Michelgrove fits in. It
    would seem from the information given above that maybe the family tree in the Visitation of Sussex (Lewknor tree) is incorrect? Maybe Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John senior and Joan? I have been playing around with the dates and both scenarios
    could be possible I think.

    Does anyone have any information?

    Thanks

    Gillian
    Bennet Lewknor was the daughter of Richard /Lewknor/ of Brambletye
    He in turn was the son of Thomas /Lewknor/ of Horsted Keynes, Sussex; Knt by Philippe /Dallingridge/
    Hi
    I have Richard Lewknor of Sherfield and not Brambletyre and Richard was the son of Roger Lewknor and Eleanor Camoys.
    Sussex Archaeological Collections.
    Gillian
    Could you specify an exact source citation so I can look it up and see what it actually states

    Richard Lewkenor of Brambletye died childless, when his heirs were said to the grand daughters of his late wife i.e. Elizabeth St Clair by her 1st husband William Lovell.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gillian Mckenna@21:1/5 to wjhons...@gmail.com on Fri Jun 24 07:13:10 2022
    On Wednesday, 22 June 2022 at 22:11:29 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wednesday, June 22, 2022 at 10:18:59 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Monday, 20 June 2022 at 14:56:21 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 7:00:20 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Thursday, 16 June 2022 at 13:38:17 UTC+2, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Sunday, 24 October 2021 at 01:34:07 UTC+2, macken...@gmail.com wrote:
    Here are my notes on his son

    Here are my notes on the son.

    JOHN MICHELGROVE IV was born in March 1436, probably in either Sussex or Kent, to John Michelgrove (1413-1459) and Joan. It is said he apparently married Mary/Anne? Sidney about 1450 of Kent, England.

    John Michelgrove was a young man of 23 years when he died on 21 November 1459, only ten months after the death of his father John Michelgrove, esquire the elder. The later died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.] and his inquisition post
    mortem gives the age of his son and heir, John the younger as 22 years and 11 months on 22 April 1459. The inquisitions taken on the deaths of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. In Kent these were the manor of Fauconherst
    with the advowson of the church of Herst, held of the king in chief by service of one quarter of a knights fee: not a very rich property, comprising 40 acres of pasture, 80 acres of marsh and 25 acres of felled woodland and underwood, of total value per
    annum 46s. 6d. With another 13s. 4d. for the church. In Sussex they held of the King in Chief a messuage, 2 virgates of land and 100 acres of pasture called Wotton by Folkington as part of the manor of Fauconherst in Kent. They also held as tenants-in-
    chief a toft and 20 acres of land at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land. The latter lands acquired by the Michelgrove family by the marriage of his grandmother
    Joan Whegeton.

    The main difference between the land holdings of the father and son is that the son held only two parts of Fauconherst and Wotton. At the the time of his fathers inquisition in 1458/9 the Escheator for Sussex made an assignment of dower to
    Joan wife of the late John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. John the younger is referred to as son and heir of John Senior in the assignment, but not specifically of Joan the widow.

    It is not known where he was born or died, but it is believed he resided at Michelgrove House, Sussex.

    MARY/ANNE? SIDNEY, his apparent wife, was born about 1428 of Kent, England, to William Sydney of Kingsham (1390-1449) and Cecily Michell (1390-1447.) She married John Michelgrove about 1450 of Sussex, England. Mary Sidney passed away about
    1478, England, age 50 [further sources needed].

    However, it should be noted that the Michelgroves had acquired by 1414 a half share of the manor of Kingsham through their grandmother Joan Whegleton, who apparently was a descendant and heir of the Sydneys. The other half was held by her
    sister Margaret Scardevyle. But by 1428 William Sydney was said to possess a 1/3 share of the manor. John Michelgrove III father of the current John acted as a third party to the conveyance of this Manor to William Sydney and his heir males by Isabel St.
    John in 1445. Presumably this was a precursor of settling the manor on Mary Sydney and her husband John Michelgrove.

    John junior’s SOLE daughter and heir was Elizabeth Michelgrove who was born 28 March 1460 some 3 months after her father died.

    References
    Great Britain. Public Record Office, and H. C. Maxwell Lyte. Inquisitions And Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids: With Other Analogous Documents Preserved In the Public Record Office. A.D. 1284-1431. London: Printed for H. M. Stationery off.,
    by Eyre and Spottiswoode, 18991920.v5 p157

    "Sussex Fines: 21." 25 Henry VI https://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol3/pp255-260#h3-0003. Accessed 20 Oct. 2021.
    "#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
    "#610 - Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public ... 1452-1461 Henry VI v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079547&view=1up&seq=610&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17
    Oct. 2021.

    "Catalogue description Michelgrove, John Kent, Sussex." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6544445. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#107 - Calendar of the patent rolls. 1461-1467. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026339&view=1up&seq=107&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#294 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.


    "#28 - Proofs of age of Sussex families, temp. Edw. II to Edw. IV.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hx1fkv&view=1up&seq=28&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 16 Oct. 2021.
    Notes
    MICHELGROVE . - Proof of the age of ELIZABETH , daughter and heir of John MICHELGROVE , Taken at Steyning , 29th March , 15 Edw . IV . ( 1475 ) .
    John Wolff deposes that the said Elizabeth is upwards of fourteen years old , for she was born at Ernle , on March 28th , 39 Hen . VI . ( 1461 ) ; and that Elizabeth , wife of Thomas Taweke , Esq . , one of her godmothers , told him she had
    been at her baptism at Ernle on that day .
    John Remys deposes that she is fourteen years old , because on the day abovesaid he met John Ernle , her godfather , going to Ernle church to her baptism .
    John Hunt recollects the day , because he rode with Joan Ernle , the other godmother , to Ernle church on that day to the baptism .
    John Broker — because the godfather and godmothers , and many other persons , came into his house on that day , directly after the baptism of the said Elizabeth , to eat and to drink , and they told him of it .
    Richard Millward — because on that day John Ernle , the godfather , met him and told him of the baptism .
    John Ederuhem because the horses of John Ernle , the god father , stood at his house on that day , and after the baptism he told him he was the godfather .
    William Atte Lee because he was in Ernle church on that day to hear mass .
    Richard French - - because in going to the church to see the baptism , he fell with his right leg against a ladder , in the parish of Ernle , and broke his leg , which he shall never forget .
    William Clement – because the day was very windy , and part of his house was unroofed by the wind .
    Nicholas Shepherd , John Mansell , and John Grey - because on that day they met a woman named Isabella Tryse , who was the midwife at the birth of the said Elizabeth , and she told them of her birth and baptism .
    Robert Comber and John Duke because they met Thomas Elyot , the chaplain of Ernle , who told them he had baptised the said Elizabeth , in Ernle church on that day . 3
    1 The writ was sued out by Sir John and the inquisition was held the day after Shelley , whom she had already , though so she was fourteen ; her husband lost no young , married . She ob . 30th June , 1513 , time therefore in acquiring her or
    her and was buried at Clapham .
    3 The writ was dated 8th Nov . 1474 , 3 Inq . 15 Edw . IV . No . 66 ..

    https://www.sussexrecordsociety.org/olb/srs014/
    Citation
    Sussex Record Society Volume 14 page 201.
    Notes
    JOHN SHELLEY,
    esq.
    Vol. 46, No. 14.
    Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 3 Jan. 18 Hen. VIII.
    Heir, son William Shelley, the Judge, aged 48 and more.
    Lands. Manor of Applesham, advowson of and lands in Combes settled 26 Sept. 18 Hen. VIII. on Alice, wife of William Shelley his son and heir, remainder to William S. and his heirs. Moiety of manor and advowson of Denton in Denton and "Sakam"
    in Shermanbury also settled on said William and Alice. Manor of Hoope in Rudgwick settled 16 Hen. VIII. on himself for life and afterwards on Richard Shelley and Mary his wife. Lands called "Lymeborn" in Fittleworth,"Wayhurst" in Rudgwick, "la Lee" in
    Clapham, and lands in Storrington, Salvington, Horsbroke, Pokkesmore, Shermanbury, North Mundham, Slinfold, Middleton and Bensted.


    ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15.
    Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII.
    Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more.
    Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Bulshams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near Fakington. and advowson of
    the chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called "Wantley" in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the sisters and heirs apparent of
    Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.
    Hi All,

    I was very pleased to find these Michelgrove messages and I have been reading them with great interest. I am researching the Lewknor line of Sussex. Bennet Lewknor (whose 2nd husband was Thomas Twisden, direct ancestor) was the daughter of
    Richard Lewknor of Sherfield Sussex and "unknown" daughter of Michelgrove. This information comes from "Sussex Archaeological Collections, History and Antiquities of the County". Looking at the site "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", I can see
    the the mysterious Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. Some sources are given but I have not been able to check them. On Wikitrees, there is a mass of information about the Lewknors and Twisdens as they descend from
    William de Huntingfield one of the Magna Carta Barons.

    I am a bit confused as you say in the inquisition post mortem of John Michelgrove III (died 1458/9) his widow was Joan?? I thought (according to the above messages) his wife was Mary/Anne d 1478.

    According to the website "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", John Michelgrove & Mary Sidney have 2 daus, Elizabeth & unknown. No mention of son John d1459. I think maybe the Elizabeth is the dau of John IV. A mistake maybe. This tree is
    referred to a lot in Wikitrees.

    Going back to the Joan & Mary/Anne Sidney question, am I reading this incorrectly?

    Thanks in advance

    Gillian
    Hi Again,

    Yes I think that I read the previous messages incorrectly! Sorry about that.

    For my Lewknor line, the mysterious Miss Michelgrove is said to be the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. However, the sole descendent of John and Mary was Elizabeth their daughter. I do not know how my Miss Michelgrove fits in. It
    would seem from the information given above that maybe the family tree in the Visitation of Sussex (Lewknor tree) is incorrect? Maybe Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John senior and Joan? I have been playing around with the dates and both scenarios
    could be possible I think.

    Does anyone have any information?

    Thanks

    Gillian
    Bennet Lewknor was the daughter of Richard /Lewknor/ of Brambletye
    He in turn was the son of Thomas /Lewknor/ of Horsted Keynes, Sussex; Knt by Philippe /Dallingridge/
    Hi
    I have Richard Lewknor of Sherfield and not Brambletyre and Richard was the son of Roger Lewknor and Eleanor Camoys.
    Sussex Archaeological Collections.
    Gillian
    Could you specify an exact source citation so I can look it up and see what it actually states

    Hi

    The source is Sussex Archaeological Collections P98.

    Regards

    Gillian

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gillian Mckenna@21:1/5 to Gillian Mckenna on Fri Jun 24 07:19:24 2022
    On Friday, 24 June 2022 at 16:13:13 UTC+2, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Wednesday, 22 June 2022 at 22:11:29 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wednesday, June 22, 2022 at 10:18:59 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Monday, 20 June 2022 at 14:56:21 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 7:00:20 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Thursday, 16 June 2022 at 13:38:17 UTC+2, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Sunday, 24 October 2021 at 01:34:07 UTC+2, macken...@gmail.com wrote:
    Here are my notes on his son

    Here are my notes on the son.

    JOHN MICHELGROVE IV was born in March 1436, probably in either Sussex or Kent, to John Michelgrove (1413-1459) and Joan. It is said he apparently married Mary/Anne? Sidney about 1450 of Kent, England.

    John Michelgrove was a young man of 23 years when he died on 21 November 1459, only ten months after the death of his father John Michelgrove, esquire the elder. The later died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.] and his inquisition
    post mortem gives the age of his son and heir, John the younger as 22 years and 11 months on 22 April 1459. The inquisitions taken on the deaths of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. In Kent these were the manor of
    Fauconherst with the advowson of the church of Herst, held of the king in chief by service of one quarter of a knights fee: not a very rich property, comprising 40 acres of pasture, 80 acres of marsh and 25 acres of felled woodland and underwood, of
    total value per annum 46s. 6d. With another 13s. 4d. for the church. In Sussex they held of the King in Chief a messuage, 2 virgates of land and 100 acres of pasture called Wotton by Folkington as part of the manor of Fauconherst in Kent. They also held
    as tenants-in-chief a toft and 20 acres of land at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land. The latter lands acquired by the Michelgrove family by the marriage of his
    grandmother Joan Whegeton.

    The main difference between the land holdings of the father and son is that the son held only two parts of Fauconherst and Wotton. At the the time of his fathers inquisition in 1458/9 the Escheator for Sussex made an assignment of dower to
    Joan wife of the late John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. John the younger is referred to as son and heir of John Senior in the assignment, but not specifically of Joan the widow.

    It is not known where he was born or died, but it is believed he resided at Michelgrove House, Sussex.

    MARY/ANNE? SIDNEY, his apparent wife, was born about 1428 of Kent, England, to William Sydney of Kingsham (1390-1449) and Cecily Michell (1390-1447.) She married John Michelgrove about 1450 of Sussex, England. Mary Sidney passed away about
    1478, England, age 50 [further sources needed].

    However, it should be noted that the Michelgroves had acquired by 1414 a half share of the manor of Kingsham through their grandmother Joan Whegleton, who apparently was a descendant and heir of the Sydneys. The other half was held by her
    sister Margaret Scardevyle. But by 1428 William Sydney was said to possess a 1/3 share of the manor. John Michelgrove III father of the current John acted as a third party to the conveyance of this Manor to William Sydney and his heir males by Isabel St.
    John in 1445. Presumably this was a precursor of settling the manor on Mary Sydney and her husband John Michelgrove.

    John junior’s SOLE daughter and heir was Elizabeth Michelgrove who was born 28 March 1460 some 3 months after her father died.

    References
    Great Britain. Public Record Office, and H. C. Maxwell Lyte. Inquisitions And Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids: With Other Analogous Documents Preserved In the Public Record Office. A.D. 1284-1431. London: Printed for H. M. Stationery
    off., by Eyre and Spottiswoode, 18991920.v5 p157

    "Sussex Fines: 21." 25 Henry VI https://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol3/pp255-260#h3-0003. Accessed 20 Oct. 2021.
    "#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
    "#610 - Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public ... 1452-1461 Henry VI v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079547&view=1up&seq=610&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed
    17 Oct. 2021.

    "Catalogue description Michelgrove, John Kent, Sussex." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6544445. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#107 - Calendar of the patent rolls. 1461-1467. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026339&view=1up&seq=107&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#294 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct.
    2021.

    "#28 - Proofs of age of Sussex families, temp. Edw. II to Edw. IV.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hx1fkv&view=1up&seq=28&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 16 Oct. 2021.
    Notes
    MICHELGROVE . - Proof of the age of ELIZABETH , daughter and heir of John MICHELGROVE , Taken at Steyning , 29th March , 15 Edw . IV . ( 1475 ) .
    John Wolff deposes that the said Elizabeth is upwards of fourteen years old , for she was born at Ernle , on March 28th , 39 Hen . VI . ( 1461 ) ; and that Elizabeth , wife of Thomas Taweke , Esq . , one of her godmothers , told him she had
    been at her baptism at Ernle on that day .
    John Remys deposes that she is fourteen years old , because on the day abovesaid he met John Ernle , her godfather , going to Ernle church to her baptism .
    John Hunt recollects the day , because he rode with Joan Ernle , the other godmother , to Ernle church on that day to the baptism .
    John Broker — because the godfather and godmothers , and many other persons , came into his house on that day , directly after the baptism of the said Elizabeth , to eat and to drink , and they told him of it .
    Richard Millward — because on that day John Ernle , the godfather , met him and told him of the baptism .
    John Ederuhem because the horses of John Ernle , the god father , stood at his house on that day , and after the baptism he told him he was the godfather .
    William Atte Lee because he was in Ernle church on that day to hear mass .
    Richard French - - because in going to the church to see the baptism , he fell with his right leg against a ladder , in the parish of Ernle , and broke his leg , which he shall never forget .
    William Clement – because the day was very windy , and part of his house was unroofed by the wind .
    Nicholas Shepherd , John Mansell , and John Grey - because on that day they met a woman named Isabella Tryse , who was the midwife at the birth of the said Elizabeth , and she told them of her birth and baptism .
    Robert Comber and John Duke because they met Thomas Elyot , the chaplain of Ernle , who told them he had baptised the said Elizabeth , in Ernle church on that day . 3
    1 The writ was sued out by Sir John and the inquisition was held the day after Shelley , whom she had already , though so she was fourteen ; her husband lost no young , married . She ob . 30th June , 1513 , time therefore in acquiring her
    or her and was buried at Clapham .
    3 The writ was dated 8th Nov . 1474 , 3 Inq . 15 Edw . IV . No . 66 ..

    https://www.sussexrecordsociety.org/olb/srs014/
    Citation
    Sussex Record Society Volume 14 page 201.
    Notes
    JOHN SHELLEY,
    esq.
    Vol. 46, No. 14.
    Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 3 Jan. 18 Hen. VIII.
    Heir, son William Shelley, the Judge, aged 48 and more.
    Lands. Manor of Applesham, advowson of and lands in Combes settled 26 Sept. 18 Hen. VIII. on Alice, wife of William Shelley his son and heir, remainder to William S. and his heirs. Moiety of manor and advowson of Denton in Denton and "Sakam"
    in Shermanbury also settled on said William and Alice. Manor of Hoope in Rudgwick settled 16 Hen. VIII. on himself for life and afterwards on Richard Shelley and Mary his wife. Lands called "Lymeborn" in Fittleworth,"Wayhurst" in Rudgwick, "la Lee" in
    Clapham, and lands in Storrington, Salvington, Horsbroke, Pokkesmore, Shermanbury, North Mundham, Slinfold, Middleton and Bensted.


    ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15.
    Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII.
    Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more.
    Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Bulshams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near Fakington. and advowson
    of the chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called "Wantley" in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the sisters and heirs apparent
    of Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.
    Hi All,

    I was very pleased to find these Michelgrove messages and I have been reading them with great interest. I am researching the Lewknor line of Sussex. Bennet Lewknor (whose 2nd husband was Thomas Twisden, direct ancestor) was the daughter of
    Richard Lewknor of Sherfield Sussex and "unknown" daughter of Michelgrove. This information comes from "Sussex Archaeological Collections, History and Antiquities of the County". Looking at the site "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", I can see
    the the mysterious Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. Some sources are given but I have not been able to check them. On Wikitrees, there is a mass of information about the Lewknors and Twisdens as they descend from
    William de Huntingfield one of the Magna Carta Barons.

    I am a bit confused as you say in the inquisition post mortem of John Michelgrove III (died 1458/9) his widow was Joan?? I thought (according to the above messages) his wife was Mary/Anne d 1478.

    According to the website "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", John Michelgrove & Mary Sidney have 2 daus, Elizabeth & unknown. No mention of son John d1459. I think maybe the Elizabeth is the dau of John IV. A mistake maybe. This tree
    is referred to a lot in Wikitrees.

    Going back to the Joan & Mary/Anne Sidney question, am I reading this incorrectly?

    Thanks in advance

    Gillian
    Hi Again,

    Yes I think that I read the previous messages incorrectly! Sorry about that.

    For my Lewknor line, the mysterious Miss Michelgrove is said to be the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. However, the sole descendent of John and Mary was Elizabeth their daughter. I do not know how my Miss Michelgrove fits in. It
    would seem from the information given above that maybe the family tree in the Visitation of Sussex (Lewknor tree) is incorrect? Maybe Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John senior and Joan? I have been playing around with the dates and both scenarios
    could be possible I think.

    Does anyone have any information?

    Thanks

    Gillian
    Bennet Lewknor was the daughter of Richard /Lewknor/ of Brambletye
    He in turn was the son of Thomas /Lewknor/ of Horsted Keynes, Sussex; Knt by Philippe /Dallingridge/
    Hi
    I have Richard Lewknor of Sherfield and not Brambletyre and Richard was the son of Roger Lewknor and Eleanor Camoys.
    Sussex Archaeological Collections.
    Gillian
    Could you specify an exact source citation so I can look it up and see what it actually states
    Hi

    The source is Sussex Archaeological Collections P98.

    Regards

    Gillian


    Another source:
    Page 60 https://archive.org/details/baronetageofengl01wott/page/90/mode/2up?q=bennetta+lewkenor

    The baronetage of England : containing a genealogical and historical account of all the English baronets now existing : ... illustrated with their coats of arms ... : to which is added an account of such Nova Scotia baronets as are of English families :
    and a dictionary of heraldry ...
    by Wotton, Thomas, d. 1766; Kimber, Edward, 1719-1769; Johnson, R. (Richard), 1733 or 4-1793; Wotton, Thomas, d. 1766

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Will Johnson@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jun 24 08:36:44 2022
    On Thursday, June 23, 2022 at 1:52:58 PM UTC-7, daveR wView https://babel.hathitrust.org



    Bennet Lewknor was the daughter of Richard /Lewknor/ of Brambletye
    He in turn was the son of Thomas /Lewknor/ of Horsted Keynes, Sussex; Knt by Philippe /Dallingridge/
    Hi
    I have Richard Lewknor of Sherfield and not Brambletyre and Richard was the son of Roger Lewknor and Eleanor Camoys.
    Sussex Archaeological Collections.
    Gillian
    Could you specify an exact source citation so I can look it up and see what it actually states
    Richard Lewkenor of Brambletye died childless, when his heirs were said to the grand daughters of his late wife i.e. Elizabeth St Clair by her 1st husband William Lovell.

    Your *own* heirs cannot be your step-grandchildren
    Try again

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Will Johnson@21:1/5 to Gillian Mckenna on Fri Jun 24 08:37:35 2022
    On Friday, June 24, 2022 at 7:19:28 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:

    Could you specify an exact source citation so I can look it up and see what it actually states

    Another source:
    Page 60 https://archive.org/details/baronetageofengl01wott/page/90/mode/2up?q=bennetta+lewkenor

    The baronetage of England : containing a genealogical and historical account of all the English baronets now existing : ... illustrated with their coats of arms ... : to which is added an account of such Nova Scotia baronets as are of English families :
    and a dictionary of heraldry ...
    by Wotton, Thomas, d. 1766; Kimber, Edward, 1719-1769; Johnson, R. (Richard), 1733 or 4-1793; Wotton, Thomas, d. 1766

    All this says is that this Bennet was the daughter of some Richard "of sussex" So that doesn't help at all

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Will Johnson@21:1/5 to Gillian Mckenna on Fri Jun 24 08:34:54 2022
    On Friday, June 24, 2022 at 7:13:13 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Wednesday, 22 June 2022 at 22:11:29 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wednesday, June 22, 2022 at 10:18:59 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Monday, 20 June 2022 at 14:56:21 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 7:00:20 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Thursday, 16 June 2022 at 13:38:17 UTC+2, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Sunday, 24 October 2021 at 01:34:07 UTC+2, macken...@gmail.com wrote:
    Here are my notes on his son

    Here are my notes on the son.

    JOHN MICHELGROVE IV was born in March 1436, probably in either Sussex or Kent, to John Michelgrove (1413-1459) and Joan. It is said he apparently married Mary/Anne? Sidney about 1450 of Kent, England.

    John Michelgrove was a young man of 23 years when he died on 21 November 1459, only ten months after the death of his father John Michelgrove, esquire the elder. The later died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.] and his inquisition
    post mortem gives the age of his son and heir, John the younger as 22 years and 11 months on 22 April 1459. The inquisitions taken on the deaths of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. In Kent these were the manor of
    Fauconherst with the advowson of the church of Herst, held of the king in chief by service of one quarter of a knights fee: not a very rich property, comprising 40 acres of pasture, 80 acres of marsh and 25 acres of felled woodland and underwood, of
    total value per annum 46s. 6d. With another 13s. 4d. for the church. In Sussex they held of the King in Chief a messuage, 2 virgates of land and 100 acres of pasture called Wotton by Folkington as part of the manor of Fauconherst in Kent. They also held
    as tenants-in-chief a toft and 20 acres of land at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land. The latter lands acquired by the Michelgrove family by the marriage of his
    grandmother Joan Whegeton.

    The main difference between the land holdings of the father and son is that the son held only two parts of Fauconherst and Wotton. At the the time of his fathers inquisition in 1458/9 the Escheator for Sussex made an assignment of dower to
    Joan wife of the late John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. John the younger is referred to as son and heir of John Senior in the assignment, but not specifically of Joan the widow.

    It is not known where he was born or died, but it is believed he resided at Michelgrove House, Sussex.

    MARY/ANNE? SIDNEY, his apparent wife, was born about 1428 of Kent, England, to William Sydney of Kingsham (1390-1449) and Cecily Michell (1390-1447.) She married John Michelgrove about 1450 of Sussex, England. Mary Sidney passed away about
    1478, England, age 50 [further sources needed].

    However, it should be noted that the Michelgroves had acquired by 1414 a half share of the manor of Kingsham through their grandmother Joan Whegleton, who apparently was a descendant and heir of the Sydneys. The other half was held by her
    sister Margaret Scardevyle. But by 1428 William Sydney was said to possess a 1/3 share of the manor. John Michelgrove III father of the current John acted as a third party to the conveyance of this Manor to William Sydney and his heir males by Isabel St.
    John in 1445. Presumably this was a precursor of settling the manor on Mary Sydney and her husband John Michelgrove.

    John junior’s SOLE daughter and heir was Elizabeth Michelgrove who was born 28 March 1460 some 3 months after her father died.

    References
    Great Britain. Public Record Office, and H. C. Maxwell Lyte. Inquisitions And Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids: With Other Analogous Documents Preserved In the Public Record Office. A.D. 1284-1431. London: Printed for H. M. Stationery
    off., by Eyre and Spottiswoode, 18991920.v5 p157

    "Sussex Fines: 21." 25 Henry VI https://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol3/pp255-260#h3-0003. Accessed 20 Oct. 2021.
    "#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
    "#610 - Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public ... 1452-1461 Henry VI v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079547&view=1up&seq=610&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed
    17 Oct. 2021.

    "Catalogue description Michelgrove, John Kent, Sussex." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6544445. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#107 - Calendar of the patent rolls. 1461-1467. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026339&view=1up&seq=107&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#294 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct.
    2021.

    "#28 - Proofs of age of Sussex families, temp. Edw. II to Edw. IV.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hx1fkv&view=1up&seq=28&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 16 Oct. 2021.
    Notes
    MICHELGROVE . - Proof of the age of ELIZABETH , daughter and heir of John MICHELGROVE , Taken at Steyning , 29th March , 15 Edw . IV . ( 1475 ) .
    John Wolff deposes that the said Elizabeth is upwards of fourteen years old , for she was born at Ernle , on March 28th , 39 Hen . VI . ( 1461 ) ; and that Elizabeth , wife of Thomas Taweke , Esq . , one of her godmothers , told him she had
    been at her baptism at Ernle on that day .
    John Remys deposes that she is fourteen years old , because on the day abovesaid he met John Ernle , her godfather , going to Ernle church to her baptism .
    John Hunt recollects the day , because he rode with Joan Ernle , the other godmother , to Ernle church on that day to the baptism .
    John Broker — because the godfather and godmothers , and many other persons , came into his house on that day , directly after the baptism of the said Elizabeth , to eat and to drink , and they told him of it .
    Richard Millward — because on that day John Ernle , the godfather , met him and told him of the baptism .
    John Ederuhem because the horses of John Ernle , the god father , stood at his house on that day , and after the baptism he told him he was the godfather .
    William Atte Lee because he was in Ernle church on that day to hear mass .
    Richard French - - because in going to the church to see the baptism , he fell with his right leg against a ladder , in the parish of Ernle , and broke his leg , which he shall never forget .
    William Clement – because the day was very windy , and part of his house was unroofed by the wind .
    Nicholas Shepherd , John Mansell , and John Grey - because on that day they met a woman named Isabella Tryse , who was the midwife at the birth of the said Elizabeth , and she told them of her birth and baptism .
    Robert Comber and John Duke because they met Thomas Elyot , the chaplain of Ernle , who told them he had baptised the said Elizabeth , in Ernle church on that day . 3
    1 The writ was sued out by Sir John and the inquisition was held the day after Shelley , whom she had already , though so she was fourteen ; her husband lost no young , married . She ob . 30th June , 1513 , time therefore in acquiring her
    or her and was buried at Clapham .
    3 The writ was dated 8th Nov . 1474 , 3 Inq . 15 Edw . IV . No . 66 ..

    https://www.sussexrecordsociety.org/olb/srs014/
    Citation
    Sussex Record Society Volume 14 page 201.
    Notes
    JOHN SHELLEY,
    esq.
    Vol. 46, No. 14.
    Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 3 Jan. 18 Hen. VIII.
    Heir, son William Shelley, the Judge, aged 48 and more.
    Lands. Manor of Applesham, advowson of and lands in Combes settled 26 Sept. 18 Hen. VIII. on Alice, wife of William Shelley his son and heir, remainder to William S. and his heirs. Moiety of manor and advowson of Denton in Denton and "Sakam"
    in Shermanbury also settled on said William and Alice. Manor of Hoope in Rudgwick settled 16 Hen. VIII. on himself for life and afterwards on Richard Shelley and Mary his wife. Lands called "Lymeborn" in Fittleworth,"Wayhurst" in Rudgwick, "la Lee" in
    Clapham, and lands in Storrington, Salvington, Horsbroke, Pokkesmore, Shermanbury, North Mundham, Slinfold, Middleton and Bensted.


    ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15.
    Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII.
    Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more.
    Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Bulshams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near Fakington. and advowson
    of the chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called "Wantley" in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the sisters and heirs apparent
    of Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.
    Hi All,

    I was very pleased to find these Michelgrove messages and I have been reading them with great interest. I am researching the Lewknor line of Sussex. Bennet Lewknor (whose 2nd husband was Thomas Twisden, direct ancestor) was the daughter of
    Richard Lewknor of Sherfield Sussex and "unknown" daughter of Michelgrove. This information comes from "Sussex Archaeological Collections, History and Antiquities of the County". Looking at the site "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", I can see
    the the mysterious Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. Some sources are given but I have not been able to check them. On Wikitrees, there is a mass of information about the Lewknors and Twisdens as they descend from
    William de Huntingfield one of the Magna Carta Barons.

    I am a bit confused as you say in the inquisition post mortem of John Michelgrove III (died 1458/9) his widow was Joan?? I thought (according to the above messages) his wife was Mary/Anne d 1478.

    According to the website "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", John Michelgrove & Mary Sidney have 2 daus, Elizabeth & unknown. No mention of son John d1459. I think maybe the Elizabeth is the dau of John IV. A mistake maybe. This tree
    is referred to a lot in Wikitrees.

    Going back to the Joan & Mary/Anne Sidney question, am I reading this incorrectly?

    Thanks in advance

    Gillian
    Hi Again,

    Yes I think that I read the previous messages incorrectly! Sorry about that.

    For my Lewknor line, the mysterious Miss Michelgrove is said to be the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. However, the sole descendent of John and Mary was Elizabeth their daughter. I do not know how my Miss Michelgrove fits in. It
    would seem from the information given above that maybe the family tree in the Visitation of Sussex (Lewknor tree) is incorrect? Maybe Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John senior and Joan? I have been playing around with the dates and both scenarios
    could be possible I think.

    Does anyone have any information?

    Thanks

    Gillian
    Bennet Lewknor was the daughter of Richard /Lewknor/ of Brambletye
    He in turn was the son of Thomas /Lewknor/ of Horsted Keynes, Sussex; Knt by Philippe /Dallingridge/
    Hi
    I have Richard Lewknor of Sherfield and not Brambletyre and Richard was the son of Roger Lewknor and Eleanor Camoys.
    Sussex Archaeological Collections.
    Gillian
    Could you specify an exact source citation so I can look it up and see what it actually states
    Hi

    The source is Sussex Archaeological Collections P98.

    Regards

    Gillian

    Why are you taking shortcuts?
    SAC has dozens and dozens of volumes.
    Which volume

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From taf@21:1/5 to wjhons...@gmail.com on Fri Jun 24 09:52:21 2022
    On Friday, June 24, 2022 at 8:36:47 AM UTC-7, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Thursday, June 23, 2022 at 1:52:58 PM UTC-7, daveR wView https://babel.hathitrust.org
    Richard Lewkenor of Brambletye died childless, when his heirs were said to the grand daughters of his late wife i.e. Elizabeth St Clair by her 1st husband William Lovell.
    Your *own* heirs cannot be your step-grandchildren

    Well, just to be incredibly pedantic here, they can, in two different ways: 1) if, say, your niece/nephew married your step-child, their children could coincidentally be both your genealogical heirs and your step-grandchildren; 2) the use of the term '
    heirs' is not restricted to default inheritace - when someone details in their will that a certain individual is to receive all of their belongings, it is not uncommon to see this described as 'naming them as his/her heir(s)'

    taf

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gillian Mckenna@21:1/5 to wjhons...@gmail.com on Sat Jun 25 10:48:12 2022
    On Friday, 24 June 2022 at 17:34:57 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Friday, June 24, 2022 at 7:13:13 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Wednesday, 22 June 2022 at 22:11:29 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wednesday, June 22, 2022 at 10:18:59 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Monday, 20 June 2022 at 14:56:21 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 7:00:20 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Thursday, 16 June 2022 at 13:38:17 UTC+2, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Sunday, 24 October 2021 at 01:34:07 UTC+2, macken...@gmail.com wrote:
    Here are my notes on his son

    Here are my notes on the son.

    JOHN MICHELGROVE IV was born in March 1436, probably in either Sussex or Kent, to John Michelgrove (1413-1459) and Joan. It is said he apparently married Mary/Anne? Sidney about 1450 of Kent, England.

    John Michelgrove was a young man of 23 years when he died on 21 November 1459, only ten months after the death of his father John Michelgrove, esquire the elder. The later died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.] and his inquisition
    post mortem gives the age of his son and heir, John the younger as 22 years and 11 months on 22 April 1459. The inquisitions taken on the deaths of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. In Kent these were the manor of
    Fauconherst with the advowson of the church of Herst, held of the king in chief by service of one quarter of a knights fee: not a very rich property, comprising 40 acres of pasture, 80 acres of marsh and 25 acres of felled woodland and underwood, of
    total value per annum 46s. 6d. With another 13s. 4d. for the church. In Sussex they held of the King in Chief a messuage, 2 virgates of land and 100 acres of pasture called Wotton by Folkington as part of the manor of Fauconherst in Kent. They also held
    as tenants-in-chief a toft and 20 acres of land at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land. The latter lands acquired by the Michelgrove family by the marriage of his
    grandmother Joan Whegeton.

    The main difference between the land holdings of the father and son is that the son held only two parts of Fauconherst and Wotton. At the the time of his fathers inquisition in 1458/9 the Escheator for Sussex made an assignment of dower
    to Joan wife of the late John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. John the younger is referred to as son and heir of John Senior in the assignment, but not specifically of Joan the widow.

    It is not known where he was born or died, but it is believed he resided at Michelgrove House, Sussex.

    MARY/ANNE? SIDNEY, his apparent wife, was born about 1428 of Kent, England, to William Sydney of Kingsham (1390-1449) and Cecily Michell (1390-1447.) She married John Michelgrove about 1450 of Sussex, England. Mary Sidney passed away
    about 1478, England, age 50 [further sources needed].

    However, it should be noted that the Michelgroves had acquired by 1414 a half share of the manor of Kingsham through their grandmother Joan Whegleton, who apparently was a descendant and heir of the Sydneys. The other half was held by her
    sister Margaret Scardevyle. But by 1428 William Sydney was said to possess a 1/3 share of the manor. John Michelgrove III father of the current John acted as a third party to the conveyance of this Manor to William Sydney and his heir males by Isabel St.
    John in 1445. Presumably this was a precursor of settling the manor on Mary Sydney and her husband John Michelgrove.

    John junior’s SOLE daughter and heir was Elizabeth Michelgrove who was born 28 March 1460 some 3 months after her father died.

    References
    Great Britain. Public Record Office, and H. C. Maxwell Lyte. Inquisitions And Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids: With Other Analogous Documents Preserved In the Public Record Office. A.D. 1284-1431. London: Printed for H. M. Stationery
    off., by Eyre and Spottiswoode, 18991920.v5 p157

    "Sussex Fines: 21." 25 Henry VI https://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol3/pp255-260#h3-0003. Accessed 20 Oct. 2021.
    "#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
    "#610 - Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public ... 1452-1461 Henry VI v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079547&view=1up&seq=610&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove.
    Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "Catalogue description Michelgrove, John Kent, Sussex." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6544445. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#107 - Calendar of the patent rolls. 1461-1467. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026339&view=1up&seq=107&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#294 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct.
    2021.

    "#28 - Proofs of age of Sussex families, temp. Edw. II to Edw. IV.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hx1fkv&view=1up&seq=28&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 16 Oct. 2021.
    Notes
    MICHELGROVE . - Proof of the age of ELIZABETH , daughter and heir of John MICHELGROVE , Taken at Steyning , 29th March , 15 Edw . IV . ( 1475 ) .
    John Wolff deposes that the said Elizabeth is upwards of fourteen years old , for she was born at Ernle , on March 28th , 39 Hen . VI . ( 1461 ) ; and that Elizabeth , wife of Thomas Taweke , Esq . , one of her godmothers , told him she
    had been at her baptism at Ernle on that day .
    John Remys deposes that she is fourteen years old , because on the day abovesaid he met John Ernle , her godfather , going to Ernle church to her baptism .
    John Hunt recollects the day , because he rode with Joan Ernle , the other godmother , to Ernle church on that day to the baptism .
    John Broker — because the godfather and godmothers , and many other persons , came into his house on that day , directly after the baptism of the said Elizabeth , to eat and to drink , and they told him of it .
    Richard Millward — because on that day John Ernle , the godfather , met him and told him of the baptism .
    John Ederuhem because the horses of John Ernle , the god father , stood at his house on that day , and after the baptism he told him he was the godfather .
    William Atte Lee because he was in Ernle church on that day to hear mass .
    Richard French - - because in going to the church to see the baptism , he fell with his right leg against a ladder , in the parish of Ernle , and broke his leg , which he shall never forget .
    William Clement – because the day was very windy , and part of his house was unroofed by the wind .
    Nicholas Shepherd , John Mansell , and John Grey - because on that day they met a woman named Isabella Tryse , who was the midwife at the birth of the said Elizabeth , and she told them of her birth and baptism .
    Robert Comber and John Duke because they met Thomas Elyot , the chaplain of Ernle , who told them he had baptised the said Elizabeth , in Ernle church on that day . 3
    1 The writ was sued out by Sir John and the inquisition was held the day after Shelley , whom she had already , though so she was fourteen ; her husband lost no young , married . She ob . 30th June , 1513 , time therefore in acquiring her
    or her and was buried at Clapham .
    3 The writ was dated 8th Nov . 1474 , 3 Inq . 15 Edw . IV . No . 66 ..

    https://www.sussexrecordsociety.org/olb/srs014/
    Citation
    Sussex Record Society Volume 14 page 201.
    Notes
    JOHN SHELLEY,
    esq.
    Vol. 46, No. 14.
    Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 3 Jan. 18 Hen. VIII. Heir, son William Shelley, the Judge, aged 48 and more.
    Lands. Manor of Applesham, advowson of and lands in Combes settled 26 Sept. 18 Hen. VIII. on Alice, wife of William Shelley his son and heir, remainder to William S. and his heirs. Moiety of manor and advowson of Denton in Denton and "
    Sakam" in Shermanbury also settled on said William and Alice. Manor of Hoope in Rudgwick settled 16 Hen. VIII. on himself for life and afterwards on Richard Shelley and Mary his wife. Lands called "Lymeborn" in Fittleworth,"Wayhurst" in Rudgwick, "la Lee"
    in Clapham, and lands in Storrington, Salvington, Horsbroke, Pokkesmore, Shermanbury, North Mundham, Slinfold, Middleton and Bensted.


    ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15.
    Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII. Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more.
    Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Bulshams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near Fakington. and
    advowson of the chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called "Wantley" in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the sisters and heirs
    apparent of Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.
    Hi All,

    I was very pleased to find these Michelgrove messages and I have been reading them with great interest. I am researching the Lewknor line of Sussex. Bennet Lewknor (whose 2nd husband was Thomas Twisden, direct ancestor) was the daughter of
    Richard Lewknor of Sherfield Sussex and "unknown" daughter of Michelgrove. This information comes from "Sussex Archaeological Collections, History and Antiquities of the County". Looking at the site "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", I can see
    the the mysterious Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. Some sources are given but I have not been able to check them. On Wikitrees, there is a mass of information about the Lewknors and Twisdens as they descend from
    William de Huntingfield one of the Magna Carta Barons.

    I am a bit confused as you say in the inquisition post mortem of John Michelgrove III (died 1458/9) his widow was Joan?? I thought (according to the above messages) his wife was Mary/Anne d 1478.

    According to the website "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", John Michelgrove & Mary Sidney have 2 daus, Elizabeth & unknown. No mention of son John d1459. I think maybe the Elizabeth is the dau of John IV. A mistake maybe. This tree
    is referred to a lot in Wikitrees.

    Going back to the Joan & Mary/Anne Sidney question, am I reading this incorrectly?

    Thanks in advance

    Gillian
    Hi Again,

    Yes I think that I read the previous messages incorrectly! Sorry about that.

    For my Lewknor line, the mysterious Miss Michelgrove is said to be the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. However, the sole descendent of John and Mary was Elizabeth their daughter. I do not know how my Miss Michelgrove fits in. It
    would seem from the information given above that maybe the family tree in the Visitation of Sussex (Lewknor tree) is incorrect? Maybe Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John senior and Joan? I have been playing around with the dates and both scenarios
    could be possible I think.

    Does anyone have any information?

    Thanks

    Gillian
    Bennet Lewknor was the daughter of Richard /Lewknor/ of Brambletye He in turn was the son of Thomas /Lewknor/ of Horsted Keynes, Sussex; Knt by Philippe /Dallingridge/
    Hi
    I have Richard Lewknor of Sherfield and not Brambletyre and Richard was the son of Roger Lewknor and Eleanor Camoys.
    Sussex Archaeological Collections.
    Gillian
    Could you specify an exact source citation so I can look it up and see what it actually states
    Hi

    The source is Sussex Archaeological Collections P98.

    Regards

    Gillian
    Why are you taking shortcuts?
    SAC has dozens and dozens of volumes.
    Which volume
    Hi
    Sorry, Volume 3.

    Regards

    Gillian

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Will Johnson@21:1/5 to Gillian Mckenna on Thu Jun 30 18:41:55 2022
    On Saturday, June 25, 2022 at 10:48:16 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Friday, 24 June 2022 at 17:34:57 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Friday, June 24, 2022 at 7:13:13 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Wednesday, 22 June 2022 at 22:11:29 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wednesday, June 22, 2022 at 10:18:59 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Monday, 20 June 2022 at 14:56:21 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 7:00:20 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Thursday, 16 June 2022 at 13:38:17 UTC+2, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Sunday, 24 October 2021 at 01:34:07 UTC+2, macken...@gmail.com wrote:
    Here are my notes on his son

    Here are my notes on the son.

    JOHN MICHELGROVE IV was born in March 1436, probably in either Sussex or Kent, to John Michelgrove (1413-1459) and Joan. It is said he apparently married Mary/Anne? Sidney about 1450 of Kent, England.

    John Michelgrove was a young man of 23 years when he died on 21 November 1459, only ten months after the death of his father John Michelgrove, esquire the elder. The later died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.] and his inquisition
    post mortem gives the age of his son and heir, John the younger as 22 years and 11 months on 22 April 1459. The inquisitions taken on the deaths of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. In Kent these were the manor of
    Fauconherst with the advowson of the church of Herst, held of the king in chief by service of one quarter of a knights fee: not a very rich property, comprising 40 acres of pasture, 80 acres of marsh and 25 acres of felled woodland and underwood, of
    total value per annum 46s. 6d. With another 13s. 4d. for the church. In Sussex they held of the King in Chief a messuage, 2 virgates of land and 100 acres of pasture called Wotton by Folkington as part of the manor of Fauconherst in Kent. They also held
    as tenants-in-chief a toft and 20 acres of land at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land. The latter lands acquired by the Michelgrove family by the marriage of his
    grandmother Joan Whegeton.

    The main difference between the land holdings of the father and son is that the son held only two parts of Fauconherst and Wotton. At the the time of his fathers inquisition in 1458/9 the Escheator for Sussex made an assignment of dower
    to Joan wife of the late John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. John the younger is referred to as son and heir of John Senior in the assignment, but not specifically of Joan the widow.

    It is not known where he was born or died, but it is believed he resided at Michelgrove House, Sussex.

    MARY/ANNE? SIDNEY, his apparent wife, was born about 1428 of Kent, England, to William Sydney of Kingsham (1390-1449) and Cecily Michell (1390-1447.) She married John Michelgrove about 1450 of Sussex, England. Mary Sidney passed away
    about 1478, England, age 50 [further sources needed].

    However, it should be noted that the Michelgroves had acquired by 1414 a half share of the manor of Kingsham through their grandmother Joan Whegleton, who apparently was a descendant and heir of the Sydneys. The other half was held by
    her sister Margaret Scardevyle. But by 1428 William Sydney was said to possess a 1/3 share of the manor. John Michelgrove III father of the current John acted as a third party to the conveyance of this Manor to William Sydney and his heir males by Isabel
    St. John in 1445. Presumably this was a precursor of settling the manor on Mary Sydney and her husband John Michelgrove.

    John junior’s SOLE daughter and heir was Elizabeth Michelgrove who was born 28 March 1460 some 3 months after her father died.

    References
    Great Britain. Public Record Office, and H. C. Maxwell Lyte. Inquisitions And Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids: With Other Analogous Documents Preserved In the Public Record Office. A.D. 1284-1431. London: Printed for H. M.
    Stationery off., by Eyre and Spottiswoode, 18991920.v5 p157

    "Sussex Fines: 21." 25 Henry VI https://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol3/pp255-260#h3-0003. Accessed 20 Oct. 2021.
    "#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
    "#610 - Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public ... 1452-1461 Henry VI v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079547&view=1up&seq=610&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove.
    Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "Catalogue description Michelgrove, John Kent, Sussex." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6544445. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#107 - Calendar of the patent rolls. 1461-1467. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026339&view=1up&seq=107&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#294 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct.
    2021.

    "#28 - Proofs of age of Sussex families, temp. Edw. II to Edw. IV.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hx1fkv&view=1up&seq=28&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 16 Oct. 2021.
    Notes
    MICHELGROVE . - Proof of the age of ELIZABETH , daughter and heir of John MICHELGROVE , Taken at Steyning , 29th March , 15 Edw . IV . ( 1475 ) .
    John Wolff deposes that the said Elizabeth is upwards of fourteen years old , for she was born at Ernle , on March 28th , 39 Hen . VI . ( 1461 ) ; and that Elizabeth , wife of Thomas Taweke , Esq . , one of her godmothers , told him she
    had been at her baptism at Ernle on that day .
    John Remys deposes that she is fourteen years old , because on the day abovesaid he met John Ernle , her godfather , going to Ernle church to her baptism .
    John Hunt recollects the day , because he rode with Joan Ernle , the other godmother , to Ernle church on that day to the baptism .
    John Broker — because the godfather and godmothers , and many other persons , came into his house on that day , directly after the baptism of the said Elizabeth , to eat and to drink , and they told him of it .
    Richard Millward — because on that day John Ernle , the godfather , met him and told him of the baptism .
    John Ederuhem because the horses of John Ernle , the god father , stood at his house on that day , and after the baptism he told him he was the godfather .
    William Atte Lee because he was in Ernle church on that day to hear mass .
    Richard French - - because in going to the church to see the baptism , he fell with his right leg against a ladder , in the parish of Ernle , and broke his leg , which he shall never forget .
    William Clement – because the day was very windy , and part of his house was unroofed by the wind .
    Nicholas Shepherd , John Mansell , and John Grey - because on that day they met a woman named Isabella Tryse , who was the midwife at the birth of the said Elizabeth , and she told them of her birth and baptism .
    Robert Comber and John Duke because they met Thomas Elyot , the chaplain of Ernle , who told them he had baptised the said Elizabeth , in Ernle church on that day . 3
    1 The writ was sued out by Sir John and the inquisition was held the day after Shelley , whom she had already , though so she was fourteen ; her husband lost no young , married . She ob . 30th June , 1513 , time therefore in acquiring
    her or her and was buried at Clapham .
    3 The writ was dated 8th Nov . 1474 , 3 Inq . 15 Edw . IV . No . 66 ..

    https://www.sussexrecordsociety.org/olb/srs014/
    Citation
    Sussex Record Society Volume 14 page 201.
    Notes
    JOHN SHELLEY,
    esq.
    Vol. 46, No. 14.
    Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 3 Jan. 18 Hen. VIII. Heir, son William Shelley, the Judge, aged 48 and more. Lands. Manor of Applesham, advowson of and lands in Combes settled 26 Sept. 18 Hen. VIII. on Alice, wife of William Shelley his son and heir, remainder to William S. and his heirs. Moiety of manor and advowson of Denton in Denton and "
    Sakam" in Shermanbury also settled on said William and Alice. Manor of Hoope in Rudgwick settled 16 Hen. VIII. on himself for life and afterwards on Richard Shelley and Mary his wife. Lands called "Lymeborn" in Fittleworth,"Wayhurst" in Rudgwick, "la Lee"
    in Clapham, and lands in Storrington, Salvington, Horsbroke, Pokkesmore, Shermanbury, North Mundham, Slinfold, Middleton and Bensted.


    ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15.
    Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII. Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more.
    Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Bulshams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near Fakington. and
    advowson of the chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called "Wantley" in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the sisters and heirs
    apparent of Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.
    Hi All,

    I was very pleased to find these Michelgrove messages and I have been reading them with great interest. I am researching the Lewknor line of Sussex. Bennet Lewknor (whose 2nd husband was Thomas Twisden, direct ancestor) was the daughter
    of Richard Lewknor of Sherfield Sussex and "unknown" daughter of Michelgrove. This information comes from "Sussex Archaeological Collections, History and Antiquities of the County". Looking at the site "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", I can see
    the the mysterious Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. Some sources are given but I have not been able to check them. On Wikitrees, there is a mass of information about the Lewknors and Twisdens as they descend from
    William de Huntingfield one of the Magna Carta Barons.

    I am a bit confused as you say in the inquisition post mortem of John Michelgrove III (died 1458/9) his widow was Joan?? I thought (according to the above messages) his wife was Mary/Anne d 1478.

    According to the website "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", John Michelgrove & Mary Sidney have 2 daus, Elizabeth & unknown. No mention of son John d1459. I think maybe the Elizabeth is the dau of John IV. A mistake maybe. This
    tree is referred to a lot in Wikitrees.

    Going back to the Joan & Mary/Anne Sidney question, am I reading this incorrectly?

    Thanks in advance

    Gillian
    Hi Again,

    Yes I think that I read the previous messages incorrectly! Sorry about that.

    For my Lewknor line, the mysterious Miss Michelgrove is said to be the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. However, the sole descendent of John and Mary was Elizabeth their daughter. I do not know how my Miss Michelgrove fits in.
    It would seem from the information given above that maybe the family tree in the Visitation of Sussex (Lewknor tree) is incorrect? Maybe Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John senior and Joan? I have been playing around with the dates and both
    scenarios could be possible I think.

    Does anyone have any information?

    Thanks

    Gillian
    Bennet Lewknor was the daughter of Richard /Lewknor/ of Brambletye He in turn was the son of Thomas /Lewknor/ of Horsted Keynes, Sussex; Knt by Philippe /Dallingridge/
    Hi
    I have Richard Lewknor of Sherfield and not Brambletyre and Richard was the son of Roger Lewknor and Eleanor Camoys.
    Sussex Archaeological Collections.
    Gillian
    Could you specify an exact source citation so I can look it up and see what it actually states
    Hi

    The source is Sussex Archaeological Collections P98.

    Regards

    Gillian
    Why are you taking shortcuts?
    SAC has dozens and dozens of volumes.
    Which volume
    Hi
    Sorry, Volume 3.

    Regards

    Gillian

    It turns out the SAC reference is not independent. It merely cites The Baronetage article 1741 by wotton, kimber, johnson which you already cited. However in addition they add this placename which is not in the original, without citing how they know
    this.

    At any rate, it's not a scholarly article exactly, but merely a descent chart without the supporting references

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Adrian Channing@21:1/5 to wjhons...@gmail.com on Sat Jul 2 05:13:30 2022
    On Friday, July 1, 2022 at 2:41:59 AM UTC+1, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Saturday, June 25, 2022 at 10:48:16 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Friday, 24 June 2022 at 17:34:57 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Friday, June 24, 2022 at 7:13:13 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Wednesday, 22 June 2022 at 22:11:29 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wednesday, June 22, 2022 at 10:18:59 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Monday, 20 June 2022 at 14:56:21 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 7:00:20 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Thursday, 16 June 2022 at 13:38:17 UTC+2, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Sunday, 24 October 2021 at 01:34:07 UTC+2, macken...@gmail.com wrote:
    Here are my notes on his son

    Here are my notes on the son.

    JOHN MICHELGROVE IV was born in March 1436, probably in either Sussex or Kent, to John Michelgrove (1413-1459) and Joan. It is said he apparently married Mary/Anne? Sidney about 1450 of Kent, England.

    John Michelgrove was a young man of 23 years when he died on 21 November 1459, only ten months after the death of his father John Michelgrove, esquire the elder. The later died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.] and his
    inquisition post mortem gives the age of his son and heir, John the younger as 22 years and 11 months on 22 April 1459. The inquisitions taken on the deaths of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. In Kent these were the manor
    of Fauconherst with the advowson of the church of Herst, held of the king in chief by service of one quarter of a knights fee: not a very rich property, comprising 40 acres of pasture, 80 acres of marsh and 25 acres of felled woodland and underwood, of
    total value per annum 46s. 6d. With another 13s. 4d. for the church. In Sussex they held of the King in Chief a messuage, 2 virgates of land and 100 acres of pasture called Wotton by Folkington as part of the manor of Fauconherst in Kent. They also held
    as tenants-in-chief a toft and 20 acres of land at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land. The latter lands acquired by the Michelgrove family by the marriage of his
    grandmother Joan Whegeton.

    The main difference between the land holdings of the father and son is that the son held only two parts of Fauconherst and Wotton. At the the time of his fathers inquisition in 1458/9 the Escheator for Sussex made an assignment of
    dower to Joan wife of the late John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. John the younger is referred to as son and heir of John Senior in the assignment, but not specifically of Joan the widow.

    It is not known where he was born or died, but it is believed he resided at Michelgrove House, Sussex.

    MARY/ANNE? SIDNEY, his apparent wife, was born about 1428 of Kent, England, to William Sydney of Kingsham (1390-1449) and Cecily Michell (1390-1447.) She married John Michelgrove about 1450 of Sussex, England. Mary Sidney passed away
    about 1478, England, age 50 [further sources needed].

    However, it should be noted that the Michelgroves had acquired by 1414 a half share of the manor of Kingsham through their grandmother Joan Whegleton, who apparently was a descendant and heir of the Sydneys. The other half was held by
    her sister Margaret Scardevyle. But by 1428 William Sydney was said to possess a 1/3 share of the manor. John Michelgrove III father of the current John acted as a third party to the conveyance of this Manor to William Sydney and his heir males by Isabel
    St. John in 1445. Presumably this was a precursor of settling the manor on Mary Sydney and her husband John Michelgrove.

    John junior’s SOLE daughter and heir was Elizabeth Michelgrove who was born 28 March 1460 some 3 months after her father died.

    References
    Great Britain. Public Record Office, and H. C. Maxwell Lyte. Inquisitions And Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids: With Other Analogous Documents Preserved In the Public Record Office. A.D. 1284-1431. London: Printed for H. M.
    Stationery off., by Eyre and Spottiswoode, 18991920.v5 p157

    "Sussex Fines: 21." 25 Henry VI https://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol3/pp255-260#h3-0003. Accessed 20 Oct. 2021.
    "#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
    "#610 - Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public ... 1452-1461 Henry VI v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079547&view=1up&seq=610&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove.
    Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "Catalogue description Michelgrove, John Kent, Sussex." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6544445. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#107 - Calendar of the patent rolls. 1461-1467. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026339&view=1up&seq=107&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#294 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17
    Oct. 2021.

    "#28 - Proofs of age of Sussex families, temp. Edw. II to Edw. IV.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hx1fkv&view=1up&seq=28&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 16 Oct. 2021.
    Notes
    MICHELGROVE . - Proof of the age of ELIZABETH , daughter and heir of John MICHELGROVE , Taken at Steyning , 29th March , 15 Edw . IV . ( 1475 ) .
    John Wolff deposes that the said Elizabeth is upwards of fourteen years old , for she was born at Ernle , on March 28th , 39 Hen . VI . ( 1461 ) ; and that Elizabeth , wife of Thomas Taweke , Esq . , one of her godmothers , told him
    she had been at her baptism at Ernle on that day .
    John Remys deposes that she is fourteen years old , because on the day abovesaid he met John Ernle , her godfather , going to Ernle church to her baptism .
    John Hunt recollects the day , because he rode with Joan Ernle , the other godmother , to Ernle church on that day to the baptism .
    John Broker — because the godfather and godmothers , and many other persons , came into his house on that day , directly after the baptism of the said Elizabeth , to eat and to drink , and they told him of it .
    Richard Millward — because on that day John Ernle , the godfather , met him and told him of the baptism .
    John Ederuhem because the horses of John Ernle , the god father , stood at his house on that day , and after the baptism he told him he was the godfather .
    William Atte Lee because he was in Ernle church on that day to hear mass .
    Richard French - - because in going to the church to see the baptism , he fell with his right leg against a ladder , in the parish of Ernle , and broke his leg , which he shall never forget .
    William Clement – because the day was very windy , and part of his house was unroofed by the wind .
    Nicholas Shepherd , John Mansell , and John Grey - because on that day they met a woman named Isabella Tryse , who was the midwife at the birth of the said Elizabeth , and she told them of her birth and baptism .
    Robert Comber and John Duke because they met Thomas Elyot , the chaplain of Ernle , who told them he had baptised the said Elizabeth , in Ernle church on that day . 3
    1 The writ was sued out by Sir John and the inquisition was held the day after Shelley , whom she had already , though so she was fourteen ; her husband lost no young , married . She ob . 30th June , 1513 , time therefore in acquiring
    her or her and was buried at Clapham .
    3 The writ was dated 8th Nov . 1474 , 3 Inq . 15 Edw . IV . No . 66 ..

    https://www.sussexrecordsociety.org/olb/srs014/
    Citation
    Sussex Record Society Volume 14 page 201.
    Notes
    JOHN SHELLEY,
    esq.
    Vol. 46, No. 14.
    Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 3 Jan. 18 Hen. VIII. Heir, son William Shelley, the Judge, aged 48 and more. Lands. Manor of Applesham, advowson of and lands in Combes settled 26 Sept. 18 Hen. VIII. on Alice, wife of William Shelley his son and heir, remainder to William S. and his heirs. Moiety of manor and advowson of Denton in Denton and "
    Sakam" in Shermanbury also settled on said William and Alice. Manor of Hoope in Rudgwick settled 16 Hen. VIII. on himself for life and afterwards on Richard Shelley and Mary his wife. Lands called "Lymeborn" in Fittleworth,"Wayhurst" in Rudgwick, "la Lee"
    in Clapham, and lands in Storrington, Salvington, Horsbroke, Pokkesmore, Shermanbury, North Mundham, Slinfold, Middleton and Bensted.


    ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15.
    Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII. Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more.
    Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Bulshams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near Fakington. and
    advowson of the chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called "Wantley" in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the sisters and heirs
    apparent of Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.
    Hi All,

    I was very pleased to find these Michelgrove messages and I have been reading them with great interest. I am researching the Lewknor line of Sussex. Bennet Lewknor (whose 2nd husband was Thomas Twisden, direct ancestor) was the daughter
    of Richard Lewknor of Sherfield Sussex and "unknown" daughter of Michelgrove. This information comes from "Sussex Archaeological Collections, History and Antiquities of the County". Looking at the site "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", I can see
    the the mysterious Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. Some sources are given but I have not been able to check them. On Wikitrees, there is a mass of information about the Lewknors and Twisdens as they descend from
    William de Huntingfield one of the Magna Carta Barons.

    I am a bit confused as you say in the inquisition post mortem of John Michelgrove III (died 1458/9) his widow was Joan?? I thought (according to the above messages) his wife was Mary/Anne d 1478.

    According to the website "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", John Michelgrove & Mary Sidney have 2 daus, Elizabeth & unknown. No mention of son John d1459. I think maybe the Elizabeth is the dau of John IV. A mistake maybe. This
    tree is referred to a lot in Wikitrees.

    Going back to the Joan & Mary/Anne Sidney question, am I reading this incorrectly?

    Thanks in advance

    Gillian
    Hi Again,

    Yes I think that I read the previous messages incorrectly! Sorry about that.

    For my Lewknor line, the mysterious Miss Michelgrove is said to be the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. However, the sole descendent of John and Mary was Elizabeth their daughter. I do not know how my Miss Michelgrove fits in.
    It would seem from the information given above that maybe the family tree in the Visitation of Sussex (Lewknor tree) is incorrect? Maybe Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John senior and Joan? I have been playing around with the dates and both
    scenarios could be possible I think.

    Does anyone have any information?

    Thanks

    Gillian
    Bennet Lewknor was the daughter of Richard /Lewknor/ of Brambletye
    He in turn was the son of Thomas /Lewknor/ of Horsted Keynes, Sussex; Knt by Philippe /Dallingridge/
    Hi
    I have Richard Lewknor of Sherfield and not Brambletyre and Richard was the son of Roger Lewknor and Eleanor Camoys.
    Sussex Archaeological Collections.
    Gillian
    Could you specify an exact source citation so I can look it up and see what it actually states
    Hi

    The source is Sussex Archaeological Collections P98.

    Regards

    Gillian
    Why are you taking shortcuts?
    SAC has dozens and dozens of volumes.
    Which volume
    Hi
    Sorry, Volume 3.

    Regards

    Gillian
    It turns out the SAC reference is not independent. It merely cites The Baronetage article 1741 by wotton, kimber, johnson which you already cited. However in addition they add this placename which is not in the original, without citing how they know
    this.

    At any rate, it's not a scholarly article exactly, but merely a descent chart without the supporting references

    I also have a ref to SAC Vol 137 (1999) pp 153-9, which may have more, but unfortunately I have not kept details.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gillian Mckenna@21:1/5 to adrianc...@btinternet.com on Tue Jul 5 08:37:00 2022
    On Saturday, 2 July 2022 at 14:13:32 UTC+2, adrianc...@btinternet.com wrote:
    On Friday, July 1, 2022 at 2:41:59 AM UTC+1, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Saturday, June 25, 2022 at 10:48:16 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Friday, 24 June 2022 at 17:34:57 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Friday, June 24, 2022 at 7:13:13 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Wednesday, 22 June 2022 at 22:11:29 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wednesday, June 22, 2022 at 10:18:59 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Monday, 20 June 2022 at 14:56:21 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 7:00:20 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Thursday, 16 June 2022 at 13:38:17 UTC+2, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Sunday, 24 October 2021 at 01:34:07 UTC+2, macken...@gmail.com wrote:
    Here are my notes on his son

    Here are my notes on the son.

    JOHN MICHELGROVE IV was born in March 1436, probably in either Sussex or Kent, to John Michelgrove (1413-1459) and Joan. It is said he apparently married Mary/Anne? Sidney about 1450 of Kent, England.

    John Michelgrove was a young man of 23 years when he died on 21 November 1459, only ten months after the death of his father John Michelgrove, esquire the elder. The later died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.] and his
    inquisition post mortem gives the age of his son and heir, John the younger as 22 years and 11 months on 22 April 1459. The inquisitions taken on the deaths of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. In Kent these were the manor
    of Fauconherst with the advowson of the church of Herst, held of the king in chief by service of one quarter of a knights fee: not a very rich property, comprising 40 acres of pasture, 80 acres of marsh and 25 acres of felled woodland and underwood, of
    total value per annum 46s. 6d. With another 13s. 4d. for the church. In Sussex they held of the King in Chief a messuage, 2 virgates of land and 100 acres of pasture called Wotton by Folkington as part of the manor of Fauconherst in Kent. They also held
    as tenants-in-chief a toft and 20 acres of land at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land. The latter lands acquired by the Michelgrove family by the marriage of his
    grandmother Joan Whegeton.

    The main difference between the land holdings of the father and son is that the son held only two parts of Fauconherst and Wotton. At the the time of his fathers inquisition in 1458/9 the Escheator for Sussex made an assignment of
    dower to Joan wife of the late John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. John the younger is referred to as son and heir of John Senior in the assignment, but not specifically of Joan the widow.

    It is not known where he was born or died, but it is believed he resided at Michelgrove House, Sussex.

    MARY/ANNE? SIDNEY, his apparent wife, was born about 1428 of Kent, England, to William Sydney of Kingsham (1390-1449) and Cecily Michell (1390-1447.) She married John Michelgrove about 1450 of Sussex, England. Mary Sidney passed
    away about 1478, England, age 50 [further sources needed].

    However, it should be noted that the Michelgroves had acquired by 1414 a half share of the manor of Kingsham through their grandmother Joan Whegleton, who apparently was a descendant and heir of the Sydneys. The other half was held
    by her sister Margaret Scardevyle. But by 1428 William Sydney was said to possess a 1/3 share of the manor. John Michelgrove III father of the current John acted as a third party to the conveyance of this Manor to William Sydney and his heir males by
    Isabel St. John in 1445. Presumably this was a precursor of settling the manor on Mary Sydney and her husband John Michelgrove.

    John junior’s SOLE daughter and heir was Elizabeth Michelgrove who was born 28 March 1460 some 3 months after her father died.

    References
    Great Britain. Public Record Office, and H. C. Maxwell Lyte. Inquisitions And Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids: With Other Analogous Documents Preserved In the Public Record Office. A.D. 1284-1431. London: Printed for H. M.
    Stationery off., by Eyre and Spottiswoode, 18991920.v5 p157

    "Sussex Fines: 21." 25 Henry VI https://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol3/pp255-260#h3-0003. Accessed 20 Oct. 2021.
    "#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
    "#610 - Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public ... 1452-1461 Henry VI v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079547&view=1up&seq=610&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove.
    Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "Catalogue description Michelgrove, John Kent, Sussex." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6544445. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#107 - Calendar of the patent rolls. 1461-1467. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026339&view=1up&seq=107&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#294 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17
    Oct. 2021.

    "#28 - Proofs of age of Sussex families, temp. Edw. II to Edw. IV.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hx1fkv&view=1up&seq=28&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 16 Oct. 2021.
    Notes
    MICHELGROVE . - Proof of the age of ELIZABETH , daughter and heir of John MICHELGROVE , Taken at Steyning , 29th March , 15 Edw . IV . ( 1475 ) .
    John Wolff deposes that the said Elizabeth is upwards of fourteen years old , for she was born at Ernle , on March 28th , 39 Hen . VI . ( 1461 ) ; and that Elizabeth , wife of Thomas Taweke , Esq . , one of her godmothers , told him
    she had been at her baptism at Ernle on that day .
    John Remys deposes that she is fourteen years old , because on the day abovesaid he met John Ernle , her godfather , going to Ernle church to her baptism .
    John Hunt recollects the day , because he rode with Joan Ernle , the other godmother , to Ernle church on that day to the baptism .
    John Broker — because the godfather and godmothers , and many other persons , came into his house on that day , directly after the baptism of the said Elizabeth , to eat and to drink , and they told him of it .
    Richard Millward — because on that day John Ernle , the godfather , met him and told him of the baptism .
    John Ederuhem because the horses of John Ernle , the god father , stood at his house on that day , and after the baptism he told him he was the godfather .
    William Atte Lee because he was in Ernle church on that day to hear mass .
    Richard French - - because in going to the church to see the baptism , he fell with his right leg against a ladder , in the parish of Ernle , and broke his leg , which he shall never forget .
    William Clement – because the day was very windy , and part of his house was unroofed by the wind .
    Nicholas Shepherd , John Mansell , and John Grey - because on that day they met a woman named Isabella Tryse , who was the midwife at the birth of the said Elizabeth , and she told them of her birth and baptism .
    Robert Comber and John Duke because they met Thomas Elyot , the chaplain of Ernle , who told them he had baptised the said Elizabeth , in Ernle church on that day . 3
    1 The writ was sued out by Sir John and the inquisition was held the day after Shelley , whom she had already , though so she was fourteen ; her husband lost no young , married . She ob . 30th June , 1513 , time therefore in
    acquiring her or her and was buried at Clapham .
    3 The writ was dated 8th Nov . 1474 , 3 Inq . 15 Edw . IV . No . 66 ..

    https://www.sussexrecordsociety.org/olb/srs014/
    Citation
    Sussex Record Society Volume 14 page 201.
    Notes
    JOHN SHELLEY,
    esq.
    Vol. 46, No. 14.
    Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 3 Jan. 18 Hen. VIII.
    Heir, son William Shelley, the Judge, aged 48 and more. Lands. Manor of Applesham, advowson of and lands in Combes settled 26 Sept. 18 Hen. VIII. on Alice, wife of William Shelley his son and heir, remainder to William S. and his heirs. Moiety of manor and advowson of Denton in Denton
    and "Sakam" in Shermanbury also settled on said William and Alice. Manor of Hoope in Rudgwick settled 16 Hen. VIII. on himself for life and afterwards on Richard Shelley and Mary his wife. Lands called "Lymeborn" in Fittleworth,"Wayhurst" in Rudgwick, "
    la Lee" in Clapham, and lands in Storrington, Salvington, Horsbroke, Pokkesmore, Shermanbury, North Mundham, Slinfold, Middleton and Bensted.


    ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15.
    Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII.
    Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more.
    Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Bulshams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near Fakington. and
    advowson of the chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called "Wantley" in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the sisters and heirs
    apparent of Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.
    Hi All,

    I was very pleased to find these Michelgrove messages and I have been reading them with great interest. I am researching the Lewknor line of Sussex. Bennet Lewknor (whose 2nd husband was Thomas Twisden, direct ancestor) was the
    daughter of Richard Lewknor of Sherfield Sussex and "unknown" daughter of Michelgrove. This information comes from "Sussex Archaeological Collections, History and Antiquities of the County". Looking at the site "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors",
    I can see the the mysterious Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. Some sources are given but I have not been able to check them. On Wikitrees, there is a mass of information about the Lewknors and Twisdens as they
    descend from William de Huntingfield one of the Magna Carta Barons.

    I am a bit confused as you say in the inquisition post mortem of John Michelgrove III (died 1458/9) his widow was Joan?? I thought (according to the above messages) his wife was Mary/Anne d 1478.

    According to the website "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", John Michelgrove & Mary Sidney have 2 daus, Elizabeth & unknown. No mention of son John d1459. I think maybe the Elizabeth is the dau of John IV. A mistake maybe.
    This tree is referred to a lot in Wikitrees.

    Going back to the Joan & Mary/Anne Sidney question, am I reading this incorrectly?

    Thanks in advance

    Gillian
    Hi Again,

    Yes I think that I read the previous messages incorrectly! Sorry about that.

    For my Lewknor line, the mysterious Miss Michelgrove is said to be the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. However, the sole descendent of John and Mary was Elizabeth their daughter. I do not know how my Miss Michelgrove fits
    in. It would seem from the information given above that maybe the family tree in the Visitation of Sussex (Lewknor tree) is incorrect? Maybe Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John senior and Joan? I have been playing around with the dates and both
    scenarios could be possible I think.

    Does anyone have any information?

    Thanks

    Gillian
    Bennet Lewknor was the daughter of Richard /Lewknor/ of Brambletye
    He in turn was the son of Thomas /Lewknor/ of Horsted Keynes, Sussex; Knt by Philippe /Dallingridge/
    Hi
    I have Richard Lewknor of Sherfield and not Brambletyre and Richard was the son of Roger Lewknor and Eleanor Camoys.
    Sussex Archaeological Collections.
    Gillian
    Could you specify an exact source citation so I can look it up and see what it actually states
    Hi

    The source is Sussex Archaeological Collections P98.

    Regards

    Gillian
    Why are you taking shortcuts?
    SAC has dozens and dozens of volumes.
    Which volume
    Hi
    Sorry, Volume 3.

    Regards

    Gillian
    It turns out the SAC reference is not independent. It merely cites The Baronetage article 1741 by wotton, kimber, johnson which you already cited. However in addition they add this placename which is not in the original, without citing how they know
    this.

    At any rate, it's not a scholarly article exactly, but merely a descent chart without the supporting references
    I also have a ref to SAC Vol 137 (1999) pp 153-9, which may have more, but unfortunately I have not kept details.

    Hi All,
    Thanks for replies. The SAC vol 137 article is very interesting about Sir John Lewknor son of Sir Thomas. Sir John was killed at the battle of Tewkesbury. A lot of info about his life and mentions his brother Richard of Brambletye. Unfortunately this is
    not the Richard Lewknor I am interested in.

    There is a will for Sir Roger Lewknor the father written 23rd July and proved 28th Nov 1478. According to various trees online this will mentions that Roger had a son Richard. I have a copy of this will but I am having difficultly "seeing" the son
    Richard. He is possibly written as Ricd but difficult to read. I can see sons Thomas, Roger, Roger the younger, Edward, George, Reynold & William. There is also a son in law George Baynbridge.

    I have no sources for Bennet Lewknor daughter of Richard and "Miss Michelgrove" except for the tree in SAC vol 3 which does not give any references.

    Regards
    Gillian

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mel101@21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 19 16:57:19 2022
    On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 9:46:56 AM UTC+10, Mel101 wrote:
    On Wednesday, July 6, 2022 at 1:37:02 AM UTC+10, gillianm...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Saturday, 2 July 2022 at 14:13:32 UTC+2, adrianc...@btinternet.com wrote:
    On Friday, July 1, 2022 at 2:41:59 AM UTC+1, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Saturday, June 25, 2022 at 10:48:16 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Friday, 24 June 2022 at 17:34:57 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Friday, June 24, 2022 at 7:13:13 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Wednesday, 22 June 2022 at 22:11:29 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wednesday, June 22, 2022 at 10:18:59 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Monday, 20 June 2022 at 14:56:21 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 7:00:20 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Thursday, 16 June 2022 at 13:38:17 UTC+2, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Sunday, 24 October 2021 at 01:34:07 UTC+2, macken...@gmail.com wrote:
    Here are my notes on his son

    Here are my notes on the son.

    JOHN MICHELGROVE IV was born in March 1436, probably in either Sussex or Kent, to John Michelgrove (1413-1459) and Joan. It is said he apparently married Mary/Anne? Sidney about 1450 of Kent, England.

    John Michelgrove was a young man of 23 years when he died on 21 November 1459, only ten months after the death of his father John Michelgrove, esquire the elder. The later died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.] and his
    inquisition post mortem gives the age of his son and heir, John the younger as 22 years and 11 months on 22 April 1459. The inquisitions taken on the deaths of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. In Kent these were the manor
    of Fauconherst with the advowson of the church of Herst, held of the king in chief by service of one quarter of a knights fee: not a very rich property, comprising 40 acres of pasture, 80 acres of marsh and 25 acres of felled woodland and underwood, of
    total value per annum 46s. 6d. With another 13s. 4d. for the church. In Sussex they held of the King in Chief a messuage, 2 virgates of land and 100 acres of pasture called Wotton by Folkington as part of the manor of Fauconherst in Kent. They also held
    as tenants-in-chief a toft and 20 acres of land at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land. The latter lands acquired by the Michelgrove family by the marriage of his
    grandmother Joan Whegeton.

    The main difference between the land holdings of the father and son is that the son held only two parts of Fauconherst and Wotton. At the the time of his fathers inquisition in 1458/9 the Escheator for Sussex made an assignment
    of dower to Joan wife of the late John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. John the younger is referred to as son and heir of John Senior in the assignment, but not specifically of Joan the widow.

    It is not known where he was born or died, but it is believed he resided at Michelgrove House, Sussex.

    MARY/ANNE? SIDNEY, his apparent wife, was born about 1428 of Kent, England, to William Sydney of Kingsham (1390-1449) and Cecily Michell (1390-1447.) She married John Michelgrove about 1450 of Sussex, England. Mary Sidney passed
    away about 1478, England, age 50 [further sources needed].

    However, it should be noted that the Michelgroves had acquired by 1414 a half share of the manor of Kingsham through their grandmother Joan Whegleton, who apparently was a descendant and heir of the Sydneys. The other half was
    held by her sister Margaret Scardevyle. But by 1428 William Sydney was said to possess a 1/3 share of the manor. John Michelgrove III father of the current John acted as a third party to the conveyance of this Manor to William Sydney and his heir males
    by Isabel St. John in 1445. Presumably this was a precursor of settling the manor on Mary Sydney and her husband John Michelgrove.

    John junior’s SOLE daughter and heir was Elizabeth Michelgrove who was born 28 March 1460 some 3 months after her father died.

    References
    Great Britain. Public Record Office, and H. C. Maxwell Lyte. Inquisitions And Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids: With Other Analogous Documents Preserved In the Public Record Office. A.D. 1284-1431. London: Printed for H. M.
    Stationery off., by Eyre and Spottiswoode, 18991920.v5 p157

    "Sussex Fines: 21." 25 Henry VI https://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol3/pp255-260#h3-0003. Accessed 20 Oct. 2021.
    "#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
    "#610 - Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public ... 1452-1461 Henry VI v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079547&view=1up&seq=610&skin=2021&q1=
    michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "Catalogue description Michelgrove, John Kent, Sussex." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6544445. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#107 - Calendar of the patent rolls. 1461-1467. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026339&view=1up&seq=107&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#294 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove.
    Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#28 - Proofs of age of Sussex families, temp. Edw. II to Edw. IV.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hx1fkv&view=1up&seq=28&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 16 Oct. 2021.
    Notes
    MICHELGROVE . - Proof of the age of ELIZABETH , daughter and heir of John MICHELGROVE , Taken at Steyning , 29th March , 15 Edw . IV . ( 1475 ) .
    John Wolff deposes that the said Elizabeth is upwards of fourteen years old , for she was born at Ernle , on March 28th , 39 Hen . VI . ( 1461 ) ; and that Elizabeth , wife of Thomas Taweke , Esq . , one of her godmothers , told
    him she had been at her baptism at Ernle on that day .
    John Remys deposes that she is fourteen years old , because on the day abovesaid he met John Ernle , her godfather , going to Ernle church to her baptism .
    John Hunt recollects the day , because he rode with Joan Ernle , the other godmother , to Ernle church on that day to the baptism .
    John Broker — because the godfather and godmothers , and many other persons , came into his house on that day , directly after the baptism of the said Elizabeth , to eat and to drink , and they told him of it .
    Richard Millward — because on that day John Ernle , the godfather , met him and told him of the baptism .
    John Ederuhem because the horses of John Ernle , the god father , stood at his house on that day , and after the baptism he told him he was the godfather .
    William Atte Lee because he was in Ernle church on that day to hear mass .
    Richard French - - because in going to the church to see the baptism , he fell with his right leg against a ladder , in the parish of Ernle , and broke his leg , which he shall never forget .
    William Clement – because the day was very windy , and part of his house was unroofed by the wind .
    Nicholas Shepherd , John Mansell , and John Grey - because on that day they met a woman named Isabella Tryse , who was the midwife at the birth of the said Elizabeth , and she told them of her birth and baptism .
    Robert Comber and John Duke because they met Thomas Elyot , the chaplain of Ernle , who told them he had baptised the said Elizabeth , in Ernle church on that day . 3
    1 The writ was sued out by Sir John and the inquisition was held the day after Shelley , whom she had already , though so she was fourteen ; her husband lost no young , married . She ob . 30th June , 1513 , time therefore in
    acquiring her or her and was buried at Clapham .
    3 The writ was dated 8th Nov . 1474 , 3 Inq . 15 Edw . IV . No . 66 ..

    https://www.sussexrecordsociety.org/olb/srs014/ Citation
    Sussex Record Society Volume 14 page 201.
    Notes
    JOHN SHELLEY,
    esq.
    Vol. 46, No. 14.
    Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 3 Jan. 18 Hen. VIII.
    Heir, son William Shelley, the Judge, aged 48 and more.
    Lands. Manor of Applesham, advowson of and lands in Combes settled 26 Sept. 18 Hen. VIII. on Alice, wife of William Shelley his son and heir, remainder to William S. and his heirs. Moiety of manor and advowson of Denton in
    Denton and "Sakam" in Shermanbury also settled on said William and Alice. Manor of Hoope in Rudgwick settled 16 Hen. VIII. on himself for life and afterwards on Richard Shelley and Mary his wife. Lands called "Lymeborn" in Fittleworth,"Wayhurst" in
    Rudgwick, "la Lee" in Clapham, and lands in Storrington, Salvington, Horsbroke, Pokkesmore, Shermanbury, North Mundham, Slinfold, Middleton and Bensted.


    ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15.
    Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII.
    Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more.
    Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Bulshams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near Fakington.
    and advowson of the chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called "Wantley" in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the sisters and
    heirs apparent of Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.
    Hi All,

    I was very pleased to find these Michelgrove messages and I have been reading them with great interest. I am researching the Lewknor line of Sussex. Bennet Lewknor (whose 2nd husband was Thomas Twisden, direct ancestor) was the
    daughter of Richard Lewknor of Sherfield Sussex and "unknown" daughter of Michelgrove. This information comes from "Sussex Archaeological Collections, History and Antiquities of the County". Looking at the site "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors",
    I can see the the mysterious Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. Some sources are given but I have not been able to check them. On Wikitrees, there is a mass of information about the Lewknors and Twisdens as they
    descend from William de Huntingfield one of the Magna Carta Barons.

    I am a bit confused as you say in the inquisition post mortem of John Michelgrove III (died 1458/9) his widow was Joan?? I thought (according to the above messages) his wife was Mary/Anne d 1478.

    According to the website "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", John Michelgrove & Mary Sidney have 2 daus, Elizabeth & unknown. No mention of son John d1459. I think maybe the Elizabeth is the dau of John IV. A mistake maybe.
    This tree is referred to a lot in Wikitrees.

    Going back to the Joan & Mary/Anne Sidney question, am I reading this incorrectly?

    Thanks in advance

    Gillian
    Hi Again,

    Yes I think that I read the previous messages incorrectly! Sorry about that.

    For my Lewknor line, the mysterious Miss Michelgrove is said to be the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. However, the sole descendent of John and Mary was Elizabeth their daughter. I do not know how my Miss Michelgrove
    fits in. It would seem from the information given above that maybe the family tree in the Visitation of Sussex (Lewknor tree) is incorrect? Maybe Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John senior and Joan? I have been playing around with the dates and
    both scenarios could be possible I think.

    Does anyone have any information?

    Thanks

    Gillian
    Bennet Lewknor was the daughter of Richard /Lewknor/ of Brambletye
    He in turn was the son of Thomas /Lewknor/ of Horsted Keynes, Sussex; Knt by Philippe /Dallingridge/
    Hi
    I have Richard Lewknor of Sherfield and not Brambletyre and Richard was the son of Roger Lewknor and Eleanor Camoys.
    Sussex Archaeological Collections.
    Gillian
    Could you specify an exact source citation so I can look it up and see what it actually states
    Hi

    The source is Sussex Archaeological Collections P98.

    Regards

    Gillian
    Why are you taking shortcuts?
    SAC has dozens and dozens of volumes.
    Which volume
    Hi
    Sorry, Volume 3.

    Regards

    Gillian
    It turns out the SAC reference is not independent. It merely cites The Baronetage article 1741 by wotton, kimber, johnson which you already cited. However in addition they add this placename which is not in the original, without citing how they
    know this.

    At any rate, it's not a scholarly article exactly, but merely a descent chart without the supporting references
    I also have a ref to SAC Vol 137 (1999) pp 153-9, which may have more, but unfortunately I have not kept details.
    Hi All,
    Thanks for replies. The SAC vol 137 article is very interesting about Sir John Lewknor son of Sir Thomas. Sir John was killed at the battle of Tewkesbury. A lot of info about his life and mentions his brother Richard of Brambletye. Unfortunately this
    is not the Richard Lewknor I am interested in.

    There is a will for Sir Roger Lewknor the father written 23rd July and proved 28th Nov 1478. According to various trees online this will mentions that Roger had a son Richard. I have a copy of this will but I am having difficultly "seeing" the son
    Richard. He is possibly written as Ricd but difficult to read. I can see sons Thomas, Roger, Roger the younger, Edward, George, Reynold & William. There is also a son in law George Baynbridge.

    I have no sources for Bennet Lewknor daughter of Richard and "Miss Michelgrove" except for the tree in SAC vol 3 which does not give any references.

    Regards
    Gillian
    https://ancestors.familysearch.org/en/G3JW-51M/sir-john-de-michelgrove-de-fauconer-iii-1398-1459

    There may be a change of name from Michelgrove/Faulkner/Fauconer to Lewknor and Shelley as a result of the changes of fortune during the war of the roses. Apparently Michelgrove was seized for a time by Henry VIII, the funds used for his personal
    wardrobe. Two owners/heirs died mysteriously after his visitation to Sussex, the castle was then left without a male heir, a court case over the age of the young heiress was filed and then she married a Shelley (previously a Faulkner).

    https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Michelgrove-1


    kind regards,
    Melodee

    https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/shelley-william-1479-1549
    SHELLEY, William (by 1479-1549), of London and Michelgrove, Suss.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mel101@21:1/5 to gillianm...@gmail.com on Mon Sep 19 16:46:54 2022
    On Wednesday, July 6, 2022 at 1:37:02 AM UTC+10, gillianm...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Saturday, 2 July 2022 at 14:13:32 UTC+2, adrianc...@btinternet.com wrote:
    On Friday, July 1, 2022 at 2:41:59 AM UTC+1, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Saturday, June 25, 2022 at 10:48:16 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Friday, 24 June 2022 at 17:34:57 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Friday, June 24, 2022 at 7:13:13 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Wednesday, 22 June 2022 at 22:11:29 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wednesday, June 22, 2022 at 10:18:59 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Monday, 20 June 2022 at 14:56:21 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 7:00:20 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Thursday, 16 June 2022 at 13:38:17 UTC+2, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Sunday, 24 October 2021 at 01:34:07 UTC+2, macken...@gmail.com wrote:
    Here are my notes on his son

    Here are my notes on the son.

    JOHN MICHELGROVE IV was born in March 1436, probably in either Sussex or Kent, to John Michelgrove (1413-1459) and Joan. It is said he apparently married Mary/Anne? Sidney about 1450 of Kent, England.

    John Michelgrove was a young man of 23 years when he died on 21 November 1459, only ten months after the death of his father John Michelgrove, esquire the elder. The later died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.] and his
    inquisition post mortem gives the age of his son and heir, John the younger as 22 years and 11 months on 22 April 1459. The inquisitions taken on the deaths of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. In Kent these were the manor
    of Fauconherst with the advowson of the church of Herst, held of the king in chief by service of one quarter of a knights fee: not a very rich property, comprising 40 acres of pasture, 80 acres of marsh and 25 acres of felled woodland and underwood, of
    total value per annum 46s. 6d. With another 13s. 4d. for the church. In Sussex they held of the King in Chief a messuage, 2 virgates of land and 100 acres of pasture called Wotton by Folkington as part of the manor of Fauconherst in Kent. They also held
    as tenants-in-chief a toft and 20 acres of land at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land. The latter lands acquired by the Michelgrove family by the marriage of his
    grandmother Joan Whegeton.

    The main difference between the land holdings of the father and son is that the son held only two parts of Fauconherst and Wotton. At the the time of his fathers inquisition in 1458/9 the Escheator for Sussex made an assignment of
    dower to Joan wife of the late John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. John the younger is referred to as son and heir of John Senior in the assignment, but not specifically of Joan the widow.

    It is not known where he was born or died, but it is believed he resided at Michelgrove House, Sussex.

    MARY/ANNE? SIDNEY, his apparent wife, was born about 1428 of Kent, England, to William Sydney of Kingsham (1390-1449) and Cecily Michell (1390-1447.) She married John Michelgrove about 1450 of Sussex, England. Mary Sidney passed
    away about 1478, England, age 50 [further sources needed].

    However, it should be noted that the Michelgroves had acquired by 1414 a half share of the manor of Kingsham through their grandmother Joan Whegleton, who apparently was a descendant and heir of the Sydneys. The other half was
    held by her sister Margaret Scardevyle. But by 1428 William Sydney was said to possess a 1/3 share of the manor. John Michelgrove III father of the current John acted as a third party to the conveyance of this Manor to William Sydney and his heir males
    by Isabel St. John in 1445. Presumably this was a precursor of settling the manor on Mary Sydney and her husband John Michelgrove.

    John junior’s SOLE daughter and heir was Elizabeth Michelgrove who was born 28 March 1460 some 3 months after her father died.

    References
    Great Britain. Public Record Office, and H. C. Maxwell Lyte. Inquisitions And Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids: With Other Analogous Documents Preserved In the Public Record Office. A.D. 1284-1431. London: Printed for H. M.
    Stationery off., by Eyre and Spottiswoode, 18991920.v5 p157

    "Sussex Fines: 21." 25 Henry VI https://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol3/pp255-260#h3-0003. Accessed 20 Oct. 2021.
    "#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
    "#610 - Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public ... 1452-1461 Henry VI v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079547&view=1up&seq=610&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove.
    Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "Catalogue description Michelgrove, John Kent, Sussex." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6544445. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#107 - Calendar of the patent rolls. 1461-1467. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026339&view=1up&seq=107&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#294 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed
    17 Oct. 2021.

    "#28 - Proofs of age of Sussex families, temp. Edw. II to Edw. IV.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hx1fkv&view=1up&seq=28&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 16 Oct. 2021.
    Notes
    MICHELGROVE . - Proof of the age of ELIZABETH , daughter and heir of John MICHELGROVE , Taken at Steyning , 29th March , 15 Edw . IV . ( 1475 ) .
    John Wolff deposes that the said Elizabeth is upwards of fourteen years old , for she was born at Ernle , on March 28th , 39 Hen . VI . ( 1461 ) ; and that Elizabeth , wife of Thomas Taweke , Esq . , one of her godmothers , told
    him she had been at her baptism at Ernle on that day .
    John Remys deposes that she is fourteen years old , because on the day abovesaid he met John Ernle , her godfather , going to Ernle church to her baptism .
    John Hunt recollects the day , because he rode with Joan Ernle , the other godmother , to Ernle church on that day to the baptism .
    John Broker — because the godfather and godmothers , and many other persons , came into his house on that day , directly after the baptism of the said Elizabeth , to eat and to drink , and they told him of it .
    Richard Millward — because on that day John Ernle , the godfather , met him and told him of the baptism .
    John Ederuhem because the horses of John Ernle , the god father , stood at his house on that day , and after the baptism he told him he was the godfather .
    William Atte Lee because he was in Ernle church on that day to hear mass .
    Richard French - - because in going to the church to see the baptism , he fell with his right leg against a ladder , in the parish of Ernle , and broke his leg , which he shall never forget .
    William Clement – because the day was very windy , and part of his house was unroofed by the wind .
    Nicholas Shepherd , John Mansell , and John Grey - because on that day they met a woman named Isabella Tryse , who was the midwife at the birth of the said Elizabeth , and she told them of her birth and baptism .
    Robert Comber and John Duke because they met Thomas Elyot , the chaplain of Ernle , who told them he had baptised the said Elizabeth , in Ernle church on that day . 3
    1 The writ was sued out by Sir John and the inquisition was held the day after Shelley , whom she had already , though so she was fourteen ; her husband lost no young , married . She ob . 30th June , 1513 , time therefore in
    acquiring her or her and was buried at Clapham .
    3 The writ was dated 8th Nov . 1474 , 3 Inq . 15 Edw . IV . No . 66 ..

    https://www.sussexrecordsociety.org/olb/srs014/ Citation
    Sussex Record Society Volume 14 page 201.
    Notes
    JOHN SHELLEY,
    esq.
    Vol. 46, No. 14.
    Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 3 Jan. 18 Hen. VIII.
    Heir, son William Shelley, the Judge, aged 48 and more.
    Lands. Manor of Applesham, advowson of and lands in Combes settled 26 Sept. 18 Hen. VIII. on Alice, wife of William Shelley his son and heir, remainder to William S. and his heirs. Moiety of manor and advowson of Denton in Denton
    and "Sakam" in Shermanbury also settled on said William and Alice. Manor of Hoope in Rudgwick settled 16 Hen. VIII. on himself for life and afterwards on Richard Shelley and Mary his wife. Lands called "Lymeborn" in Fittleworth,"Wayhurst" in Rudgwick, "
    la Lee" in Clapham, and lands in Storrington, Salvington, Horsbroke, Pokkesmore, Shermanbury, North Mundham, Slinfold, Middleton and Bensted.


    ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15.
    Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII.
    Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more.
    Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Bulshams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near Fakington. and
    advowson of the chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called "Wantley" in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the sisters and heirs
    apparent of Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.
    Hi All,

    I was very pleased to find these Michelgrove messages and I have been reading them with great interest. I am researching the Lewknor line of Sussex. Bennet Lewknor (whose 2nd husband was Thomas Twisden, direct ancestor) was the
    daughter of Richard Lewknor of Sherfield Sussex and "unknown" daughter of Michelgrove. This information comes from "Sussex Archaeological Collections, History and Antiquities of the County". Looking at the site "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors",
    I can see the the mysterious Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. Some sources are given but I have not been able to check them. On Wikitrees, there is a mass of information about the Lewknors and Twisdens as they
    descend from William de Huntingfield one of the Magna Carta Barons.

    I am a bit confused as you say in the inquisition post mortem of John Michelgrove III (died 1458/9) his widow was Joan?? I thought (according to the above messages) his wife was Mary/Anne d 1478.

    According to the website "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", John Michelgrove & Mary Sidney have 2 daus, Elizabeth & unknown. No mention of son John d1459. I think maybe the Elizabeth is the dau of John IV. A mistake maybe.
    This tree is referred to a lot in Wikitrees.

    Going back to the Joan & Mary/Anne Sidney question, am I reading this incorrectly?

    Thanks in advance

    Gillian
    Hi Again,

    Yes I think that I read the previous messages incorrectly! Sorry about that.

    For my Lewknor line, the mysterious Miss Michelgrove is said to be the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. However, the sole descendent of John and Mary was Elizabeth their daughter. I do not know how my Miss Michelgrove
    fits in. It would seem from the information given above that maybe the family tree in the Visitation of Sussex (Lewknor tree) is incorrect? Maybe Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John senior and Joan? I have been playing around with the dates and
    both scenarios could be possible I think.

    Does anyone have any information?

    Thanks

    Gillian
    Bennet Lewknor was the daughter of Richard /Lewknor/ of Brambletye
    He in turn was the son of Thomas /Lewknor/ of Horsted Keynes, Sussex; Knt by Philippe /Dallingridge/
    Hi
    I have Richard Lewknor of Sherfield and not Brambletyre and Richard was the son of Roger Lewknor and Eleanor Camoys.
    Sussex Archaeological Collections.
    Gillian
    Could you specify an exact source citation so I can look it up and see what it actually states
    Hi

    The source is Sussex Archaeological Collections P98.

    Regards

    Gillian
    Why are you taking shortcuts?
    SAC has dozens and dozens of volumes.
    Which volume
    Hi
    Sorry, Volume 3.

    Regards

    Gillian
    It turns out the SAC reference is not independent. It merely cites The Baronetage article 1741 by wotton, kimber, johnson which you already cited. However in addition they add this placename which is not in the original, without citing how they
    know this.

    At any rate, it's not a scholarly article exactly, but merely a descent chart without the supporting references
    I also have a ref to SAC Vol 137 (1999) pp 153-9, which may have more, but unfortunately I have not kept details.
    Hi All,
    Thanks for replies. The SAC vol 137 article is very interesting about Sir John Lewknor son of Sir Thomas. Sir John was killed at the battle of Tewkesbury. A lot of info about his life and mentions his brother Richard of Brambletye. Unfortunately this
    is not the Richard Lewknor I am interested in.

    There is a will for Sir Roger Lewknor the father written 23rd July and proved 28th Nov 1478. According to various trees online this will mentions that Roger had a son Richard. I have a copy of this will but I am having difficultly "seeing" the son
    Richard. He is possibly written as Ricd but difficult to read. I can see sons Thomas, Roger, Roger the younger, Edward, George, Reynold & William. There is also a son in law George Baynbridge.

    I have no sources for Bennet Lewknor daughter of Richard and "Miss Michelgrove" except for the tree in SAC vol 3 which does not give any references.

    Regards
    Gillian

    https://ancestors.familysearch.org/en/G3JW-51M/sir-john-de-michelgrove-de-fauconer-iii-1398-1459

    There may be a change of name from Michelgrove/Faulkner/Fauconer to Lewknor and Shelley as a result of the changes of fortune during the war of the roses. Apparently Michelgrove was seized for a time by Henry VIII, the funds used for his personal
    wardrobe. Two owners/heirs died mysteriously after his visitation to Sussex, the castle was then left without a male heir, a court case over the age of the young heiress was filed and then she married a Shelley (previously a Faulkner).

    https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Michelgrove-1


    kind regards,
    Melodee

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gillian Mckenna@21:1/5 to All on Thu Sep 22 07:03:35 2022
    On Tuesday, 20 September 2022 at 01:57:21 UTC+2, Mel101 wrote:
    On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 9:46:56 AM UTC+10, Mel101 wrote:
    On Wednesday, July 6, 2022 at 1:37:02 AM UTC+10, gillianm...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Saturday, 2 July 2022 at 14:13:32 UTC+2, adrianc...@btinternet.com wrote:
    On Friday, July 1, 2022 at 2:41:59 AM UTC+1, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Saturday, June 25, 2022 at 10:48:16 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Friday, 24 June 2022 at 17:34:57 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Friday, June 24, 2022 at 7:13:13 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Wednesday, 22 June 2022 at 22:11:29 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wednesday, June 22, 2022 at 10:18:59 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Monday, 20 June 2022 at 14:56:21 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 7:00:20 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Thursday, 16 June 2022 at 13:38:17 UTC+2, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Sunday, 24 October 2021 at 01:34:07 UTC+2, macken...@gmail.com wrote:
    Here are my notes on his son

    Here are my notes on the son.

    JOHN MICHELGROVE IV was born in March 1436, probably in either Sussex or Kent, to John Michelgrove (1413-1459) and Joan. It is said he apparently married Mary/Anne? Sidney about 1450 of Kent, England.

    John Michelgrove was a young man of 23 years when he died on 21 November 1459, only ten months after the death of his father John Michelgrove, esquire the elder. The later died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.] and his
    inquisition post mortem gives the age of his son and heir, John the younger as 22 years and 11 months on 22 April 1459. The inquisitions taken on the deaths of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. In Kent these were the manor
    of Fauconherst with the advowson of the church of Herst, held of the king in chief by service of one quarter of a knights fee: not a very rich property, comprising 40 acres of pasture, 80 acres of marsh and 25 acres of felled woodland and underwood, of
    total value per annum 46s. 6d. With another 13s. 4d. for the church. In Sussex they held of the King in Chief a messuage, 2 virgates of land and 100 acres of pasture called Wotton by Folkington as part of the manor of Fauconherst in Kent. They also held
    as tenants-in-chief a toft and 20 acres of land at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land. The latter lands acquired by the Michelgrove family by the marriage of his
    grandmother Joan Whegeton.

    The main difference between the land holdings of the father and son is that the son held only two parts of Fauconherst and Wotton. At the the time of his fathers inquisition in 1458/9 the Escheator for Sussex made an
    assignment of dower to Joan wife of the late John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. John the younger is referred to as son and heir of John Senior in the assignment, but not specifically of Joan the widow.

    It is not known where he was born or died, but it is believed he resided at Michelgrove House, Sussex.

    MARY/ANNE? SIDNEY, his apparent wife, was born about 1428 of Kent, England, to William Sydney of Kingsham (1390-1449) and Cecily Michell (1390-1447.) She married John Michelgrove about 1450 of Sussex, England. Mary Sidney
    passed away about 1478, England, age 50 [further sources needed].

    However, it should be noted that the Michelgroves had acquired by 1414 a half share of the manor of Kingsham through their grandmother Joan Whegleton, who apparently was a descendant and heir of the Sydneys. The other half was
    held by her sister Margaret Scardevyle. But by 1428 William Sydney was said to possess a 1/3 share of the manor. John Michelgrove III father of the current John acted as a third party to the conveyance of this Manor to William Sydney and his heir males
    by Isabel St. John in 1445. Presumably this was a precursor of settling the manor on Mary Sydney and her husband John Michelgrove.

    John junior’s SOLE daughter and heir was Elizabeth Michelgrove who was born 28 March 1460 some 3 months after her father died.

    References
    Great Britain. Public Record Office, and H. C. Maxwell Lyte. Inquisitions And Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids: With Other Analogous Documents Preserved In the Public Record Office. A.D. 1284-1431. London: Printed for H. M.
    Stationery off., by Eyre and Spottiswoode, 18991920.v5 p157

    "Sussex Fines: 21." 25 Henry VI https://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol3/pp255-260#h3-0003. Accessed 20 Oct. 2021.
    "#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
    "#610 - Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public ... 1452-1461 Henry VI v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079547&view=1up&seq=610&skin=2021&q1=
    michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "Catalogue description Michelgrove, John Kent, Sussex." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6544445. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#107 - Calendar of the patent rolls. 1461-1467. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026339&view=1up&seq=107&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#294 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove.
    Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#28 - Proofs of age of Sussex families, temp. Edw. II to Edw. IV.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hx1fkv&view=1up&seq=28&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 16 Oct. 2021.
    Notes
    MICHELGROVE . - Proof of the age of ELIZABETH , daughter and heir of John MICHELGROVE , Taken at Steyning , 29th March , 15 Edw . IV . ( 1475 ) .
    John Wolff deposes that the said Elizabeth is upwards of fourteen years old , for she was born at Ernle , on March 28th , 39 Hen . VI . ( 1461 ) ; and that Elizabeth , wife of Thomas Taweke , Esq . , one of her godmothers ,
    told him she had been at her baptism at Ernle on that day .
    John Remys deposes that she is fourteen years old , because on the day abovesaid he met John Ernle , her godfather , going to Ernle church to her baptism .
    John Hunt recollects the day , because he rode with Joan Ernle , the other godmother , to Ernle church on that day to the baptism .
    John Broker — because the godfather and godmothers , and many other persons , came into his house on that day , directly after the baptism of the said Elizabeth , to eat and to drink , and they told him of it .
    Richard Millward — because on that day John Ernle , the godfather , met him and told him of the baptism .
    John Ederuhem because the horses of John Ernle , the god father , stood at his house on that day , and after the baptism he told him he was the godfather .
    William Atte Lee because he was in Ernle church on that day to hear mass .
    Richard French - - because in going to the church to see the baptism , he fell with his right leg against a ladder , in the parish of Ernle , and broke his leg , which he shall never forget .
    William Clement – because the day was very windy , and part of his house was unroofed by the wind .
    Nicholas Shepherd , John Mansell , and John Grey - because on that day they met a woman named Isabella Tryse , who was the midwife at the birth of the said Elizabeth , and she told them of her birth and baptism .
    Robert Comber and John Duke because they met Thomas Elyot , the chaplain of Ernle , who told them he had baptised the said Elizabeth , in Ernle church on that day . 3
    1 The writ was sued out by Sir John and the inquisition was held the day after Shelley , whom she had already , though so she was fourteen ; her husband lost no young , married . She ob . 30th June , 1513 , time therefore in
    acquiring her or her and was buried at Clapham .
    3 The writ was dated 8th Nov . 1474 , 3 Inq . 15 Edw . IV . No . 66 ..

    https://www.sussexrecordsociety.org/olb/srs014/ Citation
    Sussex Record Society Volume 14 page 201.
    Notes
    JOHN SHELLEY,
    esq.
    Vol. 46, No. 14.
    Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 3 Jan. 18 Hen. VIII.
    Heir, son William Shelley, the Judge, aged 48 and more.
    Lands. Manor of Applesham, advowson of and lands in Combes settled 26 Sept. 18 Hen. VIII. on Alice, wife of William Shelley his son and heir, remainder to William S. and his heirs. Moiety of manor and advowson of Denton in
    Denton and "Sakam" in Shermanbury also settled on said William and Alice. Manor of Hoope in Rudgwick settled 16 Hen. VIII. on himself for life and afterwards on Richard Shelley and Mary his wife. Lands called "Lymeborn" in Fittleworth,"Wayhurst" in
    Rudgwick, "la Lee" in Clapham, and lands in Storrington, Salvington, Horsbroke, Pokkesmore, Shermanbury, North Mundham, Slinfold, Middleton and Bensted.


    ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15.
    Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII.
    Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more.
    Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Bulshams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near Fakington.
    and advowson of the chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called "Wantley" in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the sisters and
    heirs apparent of Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.
    Hi All,

    I was very pleased to find these Michelgrove messages and I have been reading them with great interest. I am researching the Lewknor line of Sussex. Bennet Lewknor (whose 2nd husband was Thomas Twisden, direct ancestor) was the
    daughter of Richard Lewknor of Sherfield Sussex and "unknown" daughter of Michelgrove. This information comes from "Sussex Archaeological Collections, History and Antiquities of the County". Looking at the site "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors",
    I can see the the mysterious Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. Some sources are given but I have not been able to check them. On Wikitrees, there is a mass of information about the Lewknors and Twisdens as they
    descend from William de Huntingfield one of the Magna Carta Barons.

    I am a bit confused as you say in the inquisition post mortem of John Michelgrove III (died 1458/9) his widow was Joan?? I thought (according to the above messages) his wife was Mary/Anne d 1478.

    According to the website "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", John Michelgrove & Mary Sidney have 2 daus, Elizabeth & unknown. No mention of son John d1459. I think maybe the Elizabeth is the dau of John IV. A mistake
    maybe. This tree is referred to a lot in Wikitrees.

    Going back to the Joan & Mary/Anne Sidney question, am I reading this incorrectly?

    Thanks in advance

    Gillian
    Hi Again,

    Yes I think that I read the previous messages incorrectly! Sorry about that.

    For my Lewknor line, the mysterious Miss Michelgrove is said to be the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. However, the sole descendent of John and Mary was Elizabeth their daughter. I do not know how my Miss Michelgrove
    fits in. It would seem from the information given above that maybe the family tree in the Visitation of Sussex (Lewknor tree) is incorrect? Maybe Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John senior and Joan? I have been playing around with the dates and
    both scenarios could be possible I think.

    Does anyone have any information?

    Thanks

    Gillian
    Bennet Lewknor was the daughter of Richard /Lewknor/ of Brambletye
    He in turn was the son of Thomas /Lewknor/ of Horsted Keynes, Sussex; Knt by Philippe /Dallingridge/
    Hi
    I have Richard Lewknor of Sherfield and not Brambletyre and Richard was the son of Roger Lewknor and Eleanor Camoys.
    Sussex Archaeological Collections.
    Gillian
    Could you specify an exact source citation so I can look it up and see what it actually states
    Hi

    The source is Sussex Archaeological Collections P98.

    Regards

    Gillian
    Why are you taking shortcuts?
    SAC has dozens and dozens of volumes.
    Which volume
    Hi
    Sorry, Volume 3.

    Regards

    Gillian
    It turns out the SAC reference is not independent. It merely cites The Baronetage article 1741 by wotton, kimber, johnson which you already cited. However in addition they add this placename which is not in the original, without citing how they
    know this.

    At any rate, it's not a scholarly article exactly, but merely a descent chart without the supporting references
    I also have a ref to SAC Vol 137 (1999) pp 153-9, which may have more, but unfortunately I have not kept details.
    Hi All,
    Thanks for replies. The SAC vol 137 article is very interesting about Sir John Lewknor son of Sir Thomas. Sir John was killed at the battle of Tewkesbury. A lot of info about his life and mentions his brother Richard of Brambletye. Unfortunately
    this is not the Richard Lewknor I am interested in.

    There is a will for Sir Roger Lewknor the father written 23rd July and proved 28th Nov 1478. According to various trees online this will mentions that Roger had a son Richard. I have a copy of this will but I am having difficultly "seeing" the son
    Richard. He is possibly written as Ricd but difficult to read. I can see sons Thomas, Roger, Roger the younger, Edward, George, Reynold & William. There is also a son in law George Baynbridge.

    I have no sources for Bennet Lewknor daughter of Richard and "Miss Michelgrove" except for the tree in SAC vol 3 which does not give any references.

    Regards
    Gillian
    https://ancestors.familysearch.org/en/G3JW-51M/sir-john-de-michelgrove-de-fauconer-iii-1398-1459

    There may be a change of name from Michelgrove/Faulkner/Fauconer to Lewknor and Shelley as a result of the changes of fortune during the war of the roses. Apparently Michelgrove was seized for a time by Henry VIII, the funds used for his personal
    wardrobe. Two owners/heirs died mysteriously after his visitation to Sussex, the castle was then left without a male heir, a court case over the age of the young heiress was filed and then she married a Shelley (previously a Faulkner).

    https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Michelgrove-1


    kind regards,
    Melodee
    https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/shelley-william-1479-1549
    SHELLEY, William (by 1479-1549), of London and Michelgrove, Suss.

    Hi Melodee,

    Thanks for the links. I need to look into this Michelgrove family again. All I have is the info discussed in this forum. On Wikitree there is further info:

    "Richard Lewknor Called Richard, the Younger due to an older uncle. He married (Miss) Michelgrove, daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney."

    The only daughter and child of John Michelgrove and Mary Sydney was Elizabeth b1460 who married John Shelly so the Wikitree information contradicts this. The Source given in Wikitrees is:

    https://our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com/p1237.htm#i37142

    This site states that the mysterious "Miss Michelgrove" was the sister of Elizabeth Michelgrove b1460. The source given is : [S74] Brent Ruesch's Research Notes.

    Best regards

    Gillian

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Will Johnson@21:1/5 to gillianm...@gmail.com on Thu Sep 22 15:09:57 2022
    On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 7:03:38 AM UTC-7, gillianm...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, 20 September 2022 at 01:57:21 UTC+2, Mel101 wrote:
    On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 9:46:56 AM UTC+10, Mel101 wrote:
    On Wednesday, July 6, 2022 at 1:37:02 AM UTC+10, gillianm...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Saturday, 2 July 2022 at 14:13:32 UTC+2, adrianc...@btinternet.com wrote:
    On Friday, July 1, 2022 at 2:41:59 AM UTC+1, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Saturday, June 25, 2022 at 10:48:16 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Friday, 24 June 2022 at 17:34:57 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Friday, June 24, 2022 at 7:13:13 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Wednesday, 22 June 2022 at 22:11:29 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wednesday, June 22, 2022 at 10:18:59 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Monday, 20 June 2022 at 14:56:21 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 7:00:20 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Thursday, 16 June 2022 at 13:38:17 UTC+2, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Sunday, 24 October 2021 at 01:34:07 UTC+2, macken...@gmail.com wrote:
    Here are my notes on his son

    Here are my notes on the son.

    JOHN MICHELGROVE IV was born in March 1436, probably in either Sussex or Kent, to John Michelgrove (1413-1459) and Joan. It is said he apparently married Mary/Anne? Sidney about 1450 of Kent, England.

    John Michelgrove was a young man of 23 years when he died on 21 November 1459, only ten months after the death of his father John Michelgrove, esquire the elder. The later died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.] and his
    inquisition post mortem gives the age of his son and heir, John the younger as 22 years and 11 months on 22 April 1459. The inquisitions taken on the deaths of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. In Kent these were the manor
    of Fauconherst with the advowson of the church of Herst, held of the king in chief by service of one quarter of a knights fee: not a very rich property, comprising 40 acres of pasture, 80 acres of marsh and 25 acres of felled woodland and underwood, of
    total value per annum 46s. 6d. With another 13s. 4d. for the church. In Sussex they held of the King in Chief a messuage, 2 virgates of land and 100 acres of pasture called Wotton by Folkington as part of the manor of Fauconherst in Kent. They also held
    as tenants-in-chief a toft and 20 acres of land at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land. The latter lands acquired by the Michelgrove family by the marriage of his
    grandmother Joan Whegeton.

    The main difference between the land holdings of the father and son is that the son held only two parts of Fauconherst and Wotton. At the the time of his fathers inquisition in 1458/9 the Escheator for Sussex made an
    assignment of dower to Joan wife of the late John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. John the younger is referred to as son and heir of John Senior in the assignment, but not specifically of Joan the widow.

    It is not known where he was born or died, but it is believed he resided at Michelgrove House, Sussex.

    MARY/ANNE? SIDNEY, his apparent wife, was born about 1428 of Kent, England, to William Sydney of Kingsham (1390-1449) and Cecily Michell (1390-1447.) She married John Michelgrove about 1450 of Sussex, England. Mary Sidney
    passed away about 1478, England, age 50 [further sources needed].

    However, it should be noted that the Michelgroves had acquired by 1414 a half share of the manor of Kingsham through their grandmother Joan Whegleton, who apparently was a descendant and heir of the Sydneys. The other half
    was held by her sister Margaret Scardevyle. But by 1428 William Sydney was said to possess a 1/3 share of the manor. John Michelgrove III father of the current John acted as a third party to the conveyance of this Manor to William Sydney and his heir
    males by Isabel St. John in 1445. Presumably this was a precursor of settling the manor on Mary Sydney and her husband John Michelgrove.

    John junior’s SOLE daughter and heir was Elizabeth Michelgrove who was born 28 March 1460 some 3 months after her father died.

    References
    Great Britain. Public Record Office, and H. C. Maxwell Lyte. Inquisitions And Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids: With Other Analogous Documents Preserved In the Public Record Office. A.D. 1284-1431. London: Printed for H.
    M. Stationery off., by Eyre and Spottiswoode, 18991920.v5 p157

    "Sussex Fines: 21." 25 Henry VI https://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol3/pp255-260#h3-0003. Accessed 20 Oct. 2021.
    "#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
    "#610 - Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public ... 1452-1461 Henry VI v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079547&view=1up&seq=610&skin=2021&q1=
    michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "Catalogue description Michelgrove, John Kent, Sussex." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6544445. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#107 - Calendar of the patent rolls. 1461-1467. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026339&view=1up&seq=107&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#294 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove.
    Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#28 - Proofs of age of Sussex families, temp. Edw. II to Edw. IV.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hx1fkv&view=1up&seq=28&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 16 Oct. 2021.
    Notes
    MICHELGROVE . - Proof of the age of ELIZABETH , daughter and heir of John MICHELGROVE , Taken at Steyning , 29th March , 15 Edw . IV . ( 1475 ) .
    John Wolff deposes that the said Elizabeth is upwards of fourteen years old , for she was born at Ernle , on March 28th , 39 Hen . VI . ( 1461 ) ; and that Elizabeth , wife of Thomas Taweke , Esq . , one of her godmothers ,
    told him she had been at her baptism at Ernle on that day .
    John Remys deposes that she is fourteen years old , because on the day abovesaid he met John Ernle , her godfather , going to Ernle church to her baptism .
    John Hunt recollects the day , because he rode with Joan Ernle , the other godmother , to Ernle church on that day to the baptism .
    John Broker — because the godfather and godmothers , and many other persons , came into his house on that day , directly after the baptism of the said Elizabeth , to eat and to drink , and they told him of it .
    Richard Millward — because on that day John Ernle , the godfather , met him and told him of the baptism .
    John Ederuhem because the horses of John Ernle , the god father , stood at his house on that day , and after the baptism he told him he was the godfather .
    William Atte Lee because he was in Ernle church on that day to hear mass .
    Richard French - - because in going to the church to see the baptism , he fell with his right leg against a ladder , in the parish of Ernle , and broke his leg , which he shall never forget .
    William Clement – because the day was very windy , and part of his house was unroofed by the wind .
    Nicholas Shepherd , John Mansell , and John Grey - because on that day they met a woman named Isabella Tryse , who was the midwife at the birth of the said Elizabeth , and she told them of her birth and baptism .
    Robert Comber and John Duke because they met Thomas Elyot , the chaplain of Ernle , who told them he had baptised the said Elizabeth , in Ernle church on that day . 3
    1 The writ was sued out by Sir John and the inquisition was held the day after Shelley , whom she had already , though so she was fourteen ; her husband lost no young , married . She ob . 30th June , 1513 , time therefore in
    acquiring her or her and was buried at Clapham .
    3 The writ was dated 8th Nov . 1474 , 3 Inq . 15 Edw . IV . No . 66 ..

    https://www.sussexrecordsociety.org/olb/srs014/ Citation
    Sussex Record Society Volume 14 page 201.
    Notes
    JOHN SHELLEY,
    esq.
    Vol. 46, No. 14.
    Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 3 Jan. 18 Hen. VIII.
    Heir, son William Shelley, the Judge, aged 48 and more.
    Lands. Manor of Applesham, advowson of and lands in Combes settled 26 Sept. 18 Hen. VIII. on Alice, wife of William Shelley his son and heir, remainder to William S. and his heirs. Moiety of manor and advowson of Denton in
    Denton and "Sakam" in Shermanbury also settled on said William and Alice. Manor of Hoope in Rudgwick settled 16 Hen. VIII. on himself for life and afterwards on Richard Shelley and Mary his wife. Lands called "Lymeborn" in Fittleworth,"Wayhurst" in
    Rudgwick, "la Lee" in Clapham, and lands in Storrington, Salvington, Horsbroke, Pokkesmore, Shermanbury, North Mundham, Slinfold, Middleton and Bensted.


    ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15.
    Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII.
    Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more.
    Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Bulshams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near
    Fakington. and advowson of the chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called "Wantley" in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the
    sisters and heirs apparent of Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.
    Hi All,

    I was very pleased to find these Michelgrove messages and I have been reading them with great interest. I am researching the Lewknor line of Sussex. Bennet Lewknor (whose 2nd husband was Thomas Twisden, direct ancestor) was
    the daughter of Richard Lewknor of Sherfield Sussex and "unknown" daughter of Michelgrove. This information comes from "Sussex Archaeological Collections, History and Antiquities of the County". Looking at the site "Our Royal Titled and Commoner
    Ancestors", I can see the the mysterious Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. Some sources are given but I have not been able to check them. On Wikitrees, there is a mass of information about the Lewknors and Twisdens as
    they descend from William de Huntingfield one of the Magna Carta Barons.

    I am a bit confused as you say in the inquisition post mortem of John Michelgrove III (died 1458/9) his widow was Joan?? I thought (according to the above messages) his wife was Mary/Anne d 1478.

    According to the website "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", John Michelgrove & Mary Sidney have 2 daus, Elizabeth & unknown. No mention of son John d1459. I think maybe the Elizabeth is the dau of John IV. A mistake
    maybe. This tree is referred to a lot in Wikitrees.

    Going back to the Joan & Mary/Anne Sidney question, am I reading this incorrectly?

    Thanks in advance

    Gillian
    Hi Again,

    Yes I think that I read the previous messages incorrectly! Sorry about that.

    For my Lewknor line, the mysterious Miss Michelgrove is said to be the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. However, the sole descendent of John and Mary was Elizabeth their daughter. I do not know how my Miss
    Michelgrove fits in. It would seem from the information given above that maybe the family tree in the Visitation of Sussex (Lewknor tree) is incorrect? Maybe Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John senior and Joan? I have been playing around with the
    dates and both scenarios could be possible I think.

    Does anyone have any information?

    Thanks

    Gillian
    Bennet Lewknor was the daughter of Richard /Lewknor/ of Brambletye
    He in turn was the son of Thomas /Lewknor/ of Horsted Keynes, Sussex; Knt by Philippe /Dallingridge/
    Hi
    I have Richard Lewknor of Sherfield and not Brambletyre and Richard was the son of Roger Lewknor and Eleanor Camoys.
    Sussex Archaeological Collections.
    Gillian
    Could you specify an exact source citation so I can look it up and see what it actually states
    Hi

    The source is Sussex Archaeological Collections P98.

    Regards

    Gillian
    Why are you taking shortcuts?
    SAC has dozens and dozens of volumes.
    Which volume
    Hi
    Sorry, Volume 3.

    Regards

    Gillian
    It turns out the SAC reference is not independent. It merely cites The Baronetage article 1741 by wotton, kimber, johnson which you already cited. However in addition they add this placename which is not in the original, without citing how
    they know this.

    At any rate, it's not a scholarly article exactly, but merely a descent chart without the supporting references
    I also have a ref to SAC Vol 137 (1999) pp 153-9, which may have more, but unfortunately I have not kept details.
    Hi All,
    Thanks for replies. The SAC vol 137 article is very interesting about Sir John Lewknor son of Sir Thomas. Sir John was killed at the battle of Tewkesbury. A lot of info about his life and mentions his brother Richard of Brambletye. Unfortunately
    this is not the Richard Lewknor I am interested in.

    There is a will for Sir Roger Lewknor the father written 23rd July and proved 28th Nov 1478. According to various trees online this will mentions that Roger had a son Richard. I have a copy of this will but I am having difficultly "seeing" the
    son Richard. He is possibly written as Ricd but difficult to read. I can see sons Thomas, Roger, Roger the younger, Edward, George, Reynold & William. There is also a son in law George Baynbridge.

    I have no sources for Bennet Lewknor daughter of Richard and "Miss Michelgrove" except for the tree in SAC vol 3 which does not give any references.

    Regards
    Gillian
    https://ancestors.familysearch.org/en/G3JW-51M/sir-john-de-michelgrove-de-fauconer-iii-1398-1459

    There may be a change of name from Michelgrove/Faulkner/Fauconer to Lewknor and Shelley as a result of the changes of fortune during the war of the roses. Apparently Michelgrove was seized for a time by Henry VIII, the funds used for his personal
    wardrobe. Two owners/heirs died mysteriously after his visitation to Sussex, the castle was then left without a male heir, a court case over the age of the young heiress was filed and then she married a Shelley (previously a Faulkner).

    https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Michelgrove-1


    kind regards,
    Melodee
    https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/shelley-william-1479-1549
    SHELLEY, William (by 1479-1549), of London and Michelgrove, Suss.
    Hi Melodee,

    Thanks for the links. I need to look into this Michelgrove family again. All I have is the info discussed in this forum. On Wikitree there is further info:

    "Richard Lewknor Called Richard, the Younger due to an older uncle. He married (Miss) Michelgrove, daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney."

    The only daughter and child of John Michelgrove and Mary Sydney was Elizabeth b1460 who married John Shelly so the Wikitree information contradicts this. The Source given in Wikitrees is:

    https://our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com/p1237.htm#i37142

    This site states that the mysterious "Miss Michelgrove" was the sister of Elizabeth Michelgrove b1460. The source given is : [S74] Brent Ruesch's Research Notes.

    Best regards

    Gillian

    This source "Our Royal Titled ...." is merely a cut and paste job from One World Tree.
    It's utter and complete rubbish :)
    Not trustworthy in any regard at all.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mel101@21:1/5 to wjhons...@gmail.com on Fri Sep 23 04:05:21 2022
    On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 8:09:59 AM UTC+10, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 7:03:38 AM UTC-7, gillianm...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, 20 September 2022 at 01:57:21 UTC+2, Mel101 wrote:
    On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 9:46:56 AM UTC+10, Mel101 wrote:
    On Wednesday, July 6, 2022 at 1:37:02 AM UTC+10, gillianm...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Saturday, 2 July 2022 at 14:13:32 UTC+2, adrianc...@btinternet.com wrote:
    On Friday, July 1, 2022 at 2:41:59 AM UTC+1, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Saturday, June 25, 2022 at 10:48:16 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Friday, 24 June 2022 at 17:34:57 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Friday, June 24, 2022 at 7:13:13 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Wednesday, 22 June 2022 at 22:11:29 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wednesday, June 22, 2022 at 10:18:59 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Monday, 20 June 2022 at 14:56:21 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 7:00:20 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Thursday, 16 June 2022 at 13:38:17 UTC+2, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Sunday, 24 October 2021 at 01:34:07 UTC+2, macken...@gmail.com wrote:
    Here are my notes on his son

    Here are my notes on the son.

    JOHN MICHELGROVE IV was born in March 1436, probably in either Sussex or Kent, to John Michelgrove (1413-1459) and Joan. It is said he apparently married Mary/Anne? Sidney about 1450 of Kent, England.

    John Michelgrove was a young man of 23 years when he died on 21 November 1459, only ten months after the death of his father John Michelgrove, esquire the elder. The later died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.] and
    his inquisition post mortem gives the age of his son and heir, John the younger as 22 years and 11 months on 22 April 1459. The inquisitions taken on the deaths of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. In Kent these were the
    manor of Fauconherst with the advowson of the church of Herst, held of the king in chief by service of one quarter of a knights fee: not a very rich property, comprising 40 acres of pasture, 80 acres of marsh and 25 acres of felled woodland and underwood,
    of total value per annum 46s. 6d. With another 13s. 4d. for the church. In Sussex they held of the King in Chief a messuage, 2 virgates of land and 100 acres of pasture called Wotton by Folkington as part of the manor of Fauconherst in Kent. They also
    held as tenants-in-chief a toft and 20 acres of land at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land. The latter lands acquired by the Michelgrove family by the marriage of
    his grandmother Joan Whegeton.

    The main difference between the land holdings of the father and son is that the son held only two parts of Fauconherst and Wotton. At the the time of his fathers inquisition in 1458/9 the Escheator for Sussex made an
    assignment of dower to Joan wife of the late John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. John the younger is referred to as son and heir of John Senior in the assignment, but not specifically of Joan the widow.

    It is not known where he was born or died, but it is believed he resided at Michelgrove House, Sussex.

    MARY/ANNE? SIDNEY, his apparent wife, was born about 1428 of Kent, England, to William Sydney of Kingsham (1390-1449) and Cecily Michell (1390-1447.) She married John Michelgrove about 1450 of Sussex, England. Mary Sidney
    passed away about 1478, England, age 50 [further sources needed].

    However, it should be noted that the Michelgroves had acquired by 1414 a half share of the manor of Kingsham through their grandmother Joan Whegleton, who apparently was a descendant and heir of the Sydneys. The other half
    was held by her sister Margaret Scardevyle. But by 1428 William Sydney was said to possess a 1/3 share of the manor. John Michelgrove III father of the current John acted as a third party to the conveyance of this Manor to William Sydney and his heir
    males by Isabel St. John in 1445. Presumably this was a precursor of settling the manor on Mary Sydney and her husband John Michelgrove.

    John junior’s SOLE daughter and heir was Elizabeth Michelgrove who was born 28 March 1460 some 3 months after her father died.

    References
    Great Britain. Public Record Office, and H. C. Maxwell Lyte. Inquisitions And Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids: With Other Analogous Documents Preserved In the Public Record Office. A.D. 1284-1431. London: Printed for H.
    M. Stationery off., by Eyre and Spottiswoode, 18991920.v5 p157

    "Sussex Fines: 21." 25 Henry VI https://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol3/pp255-260#h3-0003. Accessed 20 Oct. 2021.
    "#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
    "#610 - Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public ... 1452-1461 Henry VI v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079547&view=1up&seq=610&skin=2021&q1=
    michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "Catalogue description Michelgrove, John Kent, Sussex." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6544445. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#107 - Calendar of the patent rolls. 1461-1467. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026339&view=1up&seq=107&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#294 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove.
    Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#28 - Proofs of age of Sussex families, temp. Edw. II to Edw. IV.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hx1fkv&view=1up&seq=28&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 16 Oct. 2021.
    Notes
    MICHELGROVE . - Proof of the age of ELIZABETH , daughter and heir of John MICHELGROVE , Taken at Steyning , 29th March , 15 Edw . IV . ( 1475 ) .
    John Wolff deposes that the said Elizabeth is upwards of fourteen years old , for she was born at Ernle , on March 28th , 39 Hen . VI . ( 1461 ) ; and that Elizabeth , wife of Thomas Taweke , Esq . , one of her godmothers ,
    told him she had been at her baptism at Ernle on that day .
    John Remys deposes that she is fourteen years old , because on the day abovesaid he met John Ernle , her godfather , going to Ernle church to her baptism .
    John Hunt recollects the day , because he rode with Joan Ernle , the other godmother , to Ernle church on that day to the baptism .
    John Broker — because the godfather and godmothers , and many other persons , came into his house on that day , directly after the baptism of the said Elizabeth , to eat and to drink , and they told him of it .
    Richard Millward — because on that day John Ernle , the godfather , met him and told him of the baptism .
    John Ederuhem because the horses of John Ernle , the god father , stood at his house on that day , and after the baptism he told him he was the godfather .
    William Atte Lee because he was in Ernle church on that day to hear mass .
    Richard French - - because in going to the church to see the baptism , he fell with his right leg against a ladder , in the parish of Ernle , and broke his leg , which he shall never forget .
    William Clement – because the day was very windy , and part of his house was unroofed by the wind .
    Nicholas Shepherd , John Mansell , and John Grey - because on that day they met a woman named Isabella Tryse , who was the midwife at the birth of the said Elizabeth , and she told them of her birth and baptism .
    Robert Comber and John Duke because they met Thomas Elyot , the chaplain of Ernle , who told them he had baptised the said Elizabeth , in Ernle church on that day . 3
    1 The writ was sued out by Sir John and the inquisition was held the day after Shelley , whom she had already , though so she was fourteen ; her husband lost no young , married . She ob . 30th June , 1513 , time therefore
    in acquiring her or her and was buried at Clapham .
    3 The writ was dated 8th Nov . 1474 , 3 Inq . 15 Edw . IV . No . 66 ..

    https://www.sussexrecordsociety.org/olb/srs014/
    Citation
    Sussex Record Society Volume 14 page 201. Notes
    JOHN SHELLEY,
    esq.
    Vol. 46, No. 14.
    Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 3 Jan. 18 Hen. VIII.
    Heir, son William Shelley, the Judge, aged 48 and more.
    Lands. Manor of Applesham, advowson of and lands in Combes settled 26 Sept. 18 Hen. VIII. on Alice, wife of William Shelley his son and heir, remainder to William S. and his heirs. Moiety of manor and advowson of Denton in
    Denton and "Sakam" in Shermanbury also settled on said William and Alice. Manor of Hoope in Rudgwick settled 16 Hen. VIII. on himself for life and afterwards on Richard Shelley and Mary his wife. Lands called "Lymeborn" in Fittleworth,"Wayhurst" in
    Rudgwick, "la Lee" in Clapham, and lands in Storrington, Salvington, Horsbroke, Pokkesmore, Shermanbury, North Mundham, Slinfold, Middleton and Bensted.


    ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15.
    Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII.
    Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more.
    Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Bulshams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near
    Fakington. and advowson of the chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called "Wantley" in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the
    sisters and heirs apparent of Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.
    Hi All,

    I was very pleased to find these Michelgrove messages and I have been reading them with great interest. I am researching the Lewknor line of Sussex. Bennet Lewknor (whose 2nd husband was Thomas Twisden, direct ancestor) was
    the daughter of Richard Lewknor of Sherfield Sussex and "unknown" daughter of Michelgrove. This information comes from "Sussex Archaeological Collections, History and Antiquities of the County". Looking at the site "Our Royal Titled and Commoner
    Ancestors", I can see the the mysterious Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. Some sources are given but I have not been able to check them. On Wikitrees, there is a mass of information about the Lewknors and Twisdens as
    they descend from William de Huntingfield one of the Magna Carta Barons.

    I am a bit confused as you say in the inquisition post mortem of John Michelgrove III (died 1458/9) his widow was Joan?? I thought (according to the above messages) his wife was Mary/Anne d 1478.

    According to the website "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", John Michelgrove & Mary Sidney have 2 daus, Elizabeth & unknown. No mention of son John d1459. I think maybe the Elizabeth is the dau of John IV. A mistake
    maybe. This tree is referred to a lot in Wikitrees.

    Going back to the Joan & Mary/Anne Sidney question, am I reading this incorrectly?

    Thanks in advance

    Gillian
    Hi Again,

    Yes I think that I read the previous messages incorrectly! Sorry about that.

    For my Lewknor line, the mysterious Miss Michelgrove is said to be the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. However, the sole descendent of John and Mary was Elizabeth their daughter. I do not know how my Miss
    Michelgrove fits in. It would seem from the information given above that maybe the family tree in the Visitation of Sussex (Lewknor tree) is incorrect? Maybe Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John senior and Joan? I have been playing around with the
    dates and both scenarios could be possible I think.

    Does anyone have any information?

    Thanks

    Gillian
    Bennet Lewknor was the daughter of Richard /Lewknor/ of Brambletye
    He in turn was the son of Thomas /Lewknor/ of Horsted Keynes, Sussex; Knt by Philippe /Dallingridge/
    Hi
    I have Richard Lewknor of Sherfield and not Brambletyre and Richard was the son of Roger Lewknor and Eleanor Camoys.
    Sussex Archaeological Collections.
    Gillian
    Could you specify an exact source citation so I can look it up and see what it actually states
    Hi

    The source is Sussex Archaeological Collections P98.

    Regards

    Gillian
    Why are you taking shortcuts?
    SAC has dozens and dozens of volumes.
    Which volume
    Hi
    Sorry, Volume 3.

    Regards

    Gillian
    It turns out the SAC reference is not independent. It merely cites The Baronetage article 1741 by wotton, kimber, johnson which you already cited. However in addition they add this placename which is not in the original, without citing how
    they know this.

    At any rate, it's not a scholarly article exactly, but merely a descent chart without the supporting references
    I also have a ref to SAC Vol 137 (1999) pp 153-9, which may have more, but unfortunately I have not kept details.
    Hi All,
    Thanks for replies. The SAC vol 137 article is very interesting about Sir John Lewknor son of Sir Thomas. Sir John was killed at the battle of Tewkesbury. A lot of info about his life and mentions his brother Richard of Brambletye.
    Unfortunately this is not the Richard Lewknor I am interested in.

    There is a will for Sir Roger Lewknor the father written 23rd July and proved 28th Nov 1478. According to various trees online this will mentions that Roger had a son Richard. I have a copy of this will but I am having difficultly "seeing" the
    son Richard. He is possibly written as Ricd but difficult to read. I can see sons Thomas, Roger, Roger the younger, Edward, George, Reynold & William. There is also a son in law George Baynbridge.

    I have no sources for Bennet Lewknor daughter of Richard and "Miss Michelgrove" except for the tree in SAC vol 3 which does not give any references.

    Regards
    Gillian
    https://ancestors.familysearch.org/en/G3JW-51M/sir-john-de-michelgrove-de-fauconer-iii-1398-1459

    There may be a change of name from Michelgrove/Faulkner/Fauconer to Lewknor and Shelley as a result of the changes of fortune during the war of the roses. Apparently Michelgrove was seized for a time by Henry VIII, the funds used for his personal
    wardrobe. Two owners/heirs died mysteriously after his visitation to Sussex, the castle was then left without a male heir, a court case over the age of the young heiress was filed and then she married a Shelley (previously a Faulkner).

    https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Michelgrove-1


    kind regards,
    Melodee
    https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/shelley-william-1479-1549
    SHELLEY, William (by 1479-1549), of London and Michelgrove, Suss.
    Hi Melodee,

    Thanks for the links. I need to look into this Michelgrove family again. All I have is the info discussed in this forum. On Wikitree there is further info:

    "Richard Lewknor Called Richard, the Younger due to an older uncle. He married (Miss) Michelgrove, daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney."

    The only daughter and child of John Michelgrove and Mary Sydney was Elizabeth b1460 who married John Shelly so the Wikitree information contradicts this. The Source given in Wikitrees is:

    https://our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com/p1237.htm#i37142

    This site states that the mysterious "Miss Michelgrove" was the sister of Elizabeth Michelgrove b1460. The source given is : [S74] Brent Ruesch's Research Notes.

    Best regards

    Gillian
    This source "Our Royal Titled ...." is merely a cut and paste job from One World Tree.
    It's utter and complete rubbish :)
    Not trustworthy in any regard at all.

    Searching the National Archives there is sometimes some original source material such as wills etc. I suspect that Lewkenor due to the similarity to Fawkenor is a spelling variant of the same surname, possibly due to intermarriage or political turmoil.
    There was a jacobite Falkner in prison at Windsor castle at one point, and the castle was seized by King Henry VIII before eventually being returned to the young heiress Miss Michelgrove following her marriage to a Shelley (earlier a branch of Faulkner/
    Michelgrove). I also like to speculate that she may be an illegitimate of the Tudors, hence the mystery of her lineage and the sudden appearance of her children in royal and parliamentary roles.

    https://www.geni.com/people/John-Michelgrove-Esq/4209051108010049633

    property and alias
    From http://fortunatusfamilia.com.au/getperson.php?personID=I08544&tree=...

    ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15. Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII. Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the
    King's Bench, and aged 48 and more. Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Buls- hams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near
    Fakington. and advowson of the chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called " Wantley " in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the
    sisters and heirs apparent of Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.

    Googlebooks The Baronetage of England: Or The History of the English Baronets, and Such Baronets of Scotland, as are of English Families; with Genealogical Tables, and Engravings of Their Coats of Arms, Volume 1. William Betham. Burrell and Bransby,
    1801 - Baronetage. "Shelley of Michelgrove, Sussex.". Page 68-69

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gillian Mckenna@21:1/5 to All on Fri Sep 23 06:24:43 2022
    On Friday, 23 September 2022 at 13:05:22 UTC+2, Mel101 wrote:
    On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 8:09:59 AM UTC+10, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 7:03:38 AM UTC-7, gillianm...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, 20 September 2022 at 01:57:21 UTC+2, Mel101 wrote:
    On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 9:46:56 AM UTC+10, Mel101 wrote:
    On Wednesday, July 6, 2022 at 1:37:02 AM UTC+10, gillianm...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Saturday, 2 July 2022 at 14:13:32 UTC+2, adrianc...@btinternet.com wrote:
    On Friday, July 1, 2022 at 2:41:59 AM UTC+1, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Saturday, June 25, 2022 at 10:48:16 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Friday, 24 June 2022 at 17:34:57 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Friday, June 24, 2022 at 7:13:13 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Wednesday, 22 June 2022 at 22:11:29 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wednesday, June 22, 2022 at 10:18:59 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Monday, 20 June 2022 at 14:56:21 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 7:00:20 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Thursday, 16 June 2022 at 13:38:17 UTC+2, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
    On Sunday, 24 October 2021 at 01:34:07 UTC+2, macken...@gmail.com wrote:
    Here are my notes on his son

    Here are my notes on the son.

    JOHN MICHELGROVE IV was born in March 1436, probably in either Sussex or Kent, to John Michelgrove (1413-1459) and Joan. It is said he apparently married Mary/Anne? Sidney about 1450 of Kent, England.

    John Michelgrove was a young man of 23 years when he died on 21 November 1459, only ten months after the death of his father John Michelgrove, esquire the elder. The later died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.] and
    his inquisition post mortem gives the age of his son and heir, John the younger as 22 years and 11 months on 22 April 1459. The inquisitions taken on the deaths of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. In Kent these were the
    manor of Fauconherst with the advowson of the church of Herst, held of the king in chief by service of one quarter of a knights fee: not a very rich property, comprising 40 acres of pasture, 80 acres of marsh and 25 acres of felled woodland and underwood,
    of total value per annum 46s. 6d. With another 13s. 4d. for the church. In Sussex they held of the King in Chief a messuage, 2 virgates of land and 100 acres of pasture called Wotton by Folkington as part of the manor of Fauconherst in Kent. They also
    held as tenants-in-chief a toft and 20 acres of land at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land. The latter lands acquired by the Michelgrove family by the marriage of
    his grandmother Joan Whegeton.

    The main difference between the land holdings of the father and son is that the son held only two parts of Fauconherst and Wotton. At the the time of his fathers inquisition in 1458/9 the Escheator for Sussex made an
    assignment of dower to Joan wife of the late John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. John the younger is referred to as son and heir of John Senior in the assignment, but not specifically of Joan the widow.

    It is not known where he was born or died, but it is believed he resided at Michelgrove House, Sussex.

    MARY/ANNE? SIDNEY, his apparent wife, was born about 1428 of Kent, England, to William Sydney of Kingsham (1390-1449) and Cecily Michell (1390-1447.) She married John Michelgrove about 1450 of Sussex, England. Mary
    Sidney passed away about 1478, England, age 50 [further sources needed].

    However, it should be noted that the Michelgroves had acquired by 1414 a half share of the manor of Kingsham through their grandmother Joan Whegleton, who apparently was a descendant and heir of the Sydneys. The other
    half was held by her sister Margaret Scardevyle. But by 1428 William Sydney was said to possess a 1/3 share of the manor. John Michelgrove III father of the current John acted as a third party to the conveyance of this Manor to William Sydney and his
    heir males by Isabel St. John in 1445. Presumably this was a precursor of settling the manor on Mary Sydney and her husband John Michelgrove.

    John junior’s SOLE daughter and heir was Elizabeth Michelgrove who was born 28 March 1460 some 3 months after her father died.

    References
    Great Britain. Public Record Office, and H. C. Maxwell Lyte. Inquisitions And Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids: With Other Analogous Documents Preserved In the Public Record Office. A.D. 1284-1431. London: Printed for
    H. M. Stationery off., by Eyre and Spottiswoode, 18991920.v5 p157

    "Sussex Fines: 21." 25 Henry VI https://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol3/pp255-260#h3-0003. Accessed 20 Oct. 2021.
    "#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
    "#610 - Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public ... 1452-1461 Henry VI v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079547&view=1up&seq=610&skin=2021&q1=
    michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "Catalogue description Michelgrove, John Kent, Sussex." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6544445. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#107 - Calendar of the patent rolls. 1461-1467. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026339&view=1up&seq=107&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#294 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove.
    Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

    "#28 - Proofs of age of Sussex families, temp. Edw. II to Edw. IV.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hx1fkv&view=1up&seq=28&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 16 Oct. 2021.
    Notes
    MICHELGROVE . - Proof of the age of ELIZABETH , daughter and heir of John MICHELGROVE , Taken at Steyning , 29th March , 15 Edw . IV . ( 1475 ) .
    John Wolff deposes that the said Elizabeth is upwards of fourteen years old , for she was born at Ernle , on March 28th , 39 Hen . VI . ( 1461 ) ; and that Elizabeth , wife of Thomas Taweke , Esq . , one of her
    godmothers , told him she had been at her baptism at Ernle on that day .
    John Remys deposes that she is fourteen years old , because on the day abovesaid he met John Ernle , her godfather , going to Ernle church to her baptism .
    John Hunt recollects the day , because he rode with Joan Ernle , the other godmother , to Ernle church on that day to the baptism .
    John Broker — because the godfather and godmothers , and many other persons , came into his house on that day , directly after the baptism of the said Elizabeth , to eat and to drink , and they told him of it .
    Richard Millward — because on that day John Ernle , the godfather , met him and told him of the baptism .
    John Ederuhem because the horses of John Ernle , the god father , stood at his house on that day , and after the baptism he told him he was the godfather .
    William Atte Lee because he was in Ernle church on that day to hear mass .
    Richard French - - because in going to the church to see the baptism , he fell with his right leg against a ladder , in the parish of Ernle , and broke his leg , which he shall never forget .
    William Clement – because the day was very windy , and part of his house was unroofed by the wind .
    Nicholas Shepherd , John Mansell , and John Grey - because on that day they met a woman named Isabella Tryse , who was the midwife at the birth of the said Elizabeth , and she told them of her birth and baptism .
    Robert Comber and John Duke because they met Thomas Elyot , the chaplain of Ernle , who told them he had baptised the said Elizabeth , in Ernle church on that day . 3
    1 The writ was sued out by Sir John and the inquisition was held the day after Shelley , whom she had already , though so she was fourteen ; her husband lost no young , married . She ob . 30th June , 1513 , time
    therefore in acquiring her or her and was buried at Clapham .
    3 The writ was dated 8th Nov . 1474 , 3 Inq . 15 Edw . IV . No . 66 ..

    https://www.sussexrecordsociety.org/olb/srs014/
    Citation
    Sussex Record Society Volume 14 page 201. Notes
    JOHN SHELLEY,
    esq.
    Vol. 46, No. 14.
    Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 3 Jan. 18 Hen. VIII.
    Heir, son William Shelley, the Judge, aged 48 and more.
    Lands. Manor of Applesham, advowson of and lands in Combes settled 26 Sept. 18 Hen. VIII. on Alice, wife of William Shelley his son and heir, remainder to William S. and his heirs. Moiety of manor and advowson of Denton
    in Denton and "Sakam" in Shermanbury also settled on said William and Alice. Manor of Hoope in Rudgwick settled 16 Hen. VIII. on himself for life and afterwards on Richard Shelley and Mary his wife. Lands called "Lymeborn" in Fittleworth,"Wayhurst" in
    Rudgwick, "la Lee" in Clapham, and lands in Storrington, Salvington, Horsbroke, Pokkesmore, Shermanbury, North Mundham, Slinfold, Middleton and Bensted.


    ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15.
    Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII.
    Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more.
    Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Bulshams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near
    Fakington. and advowson of the chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called "Wantley" in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the
    sisters and heirs apparent of Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.
    Hi All,

    I was very pleased to find these Michelgrove messages and I have been reading them with great interest. I am researching the Lewknor line of Sussex. Bennet Lewknor (whose 2nd husband was Thomas Twisden, direct ancestor)
    was the daughter of Richard Lewknor of Sherfield Sussex and "unknown" daughter of Michelgrove. This information comes from "Sussex Archaeological Collections, History and Antiquities of the County". Looking at the site "Our Royal Titled and Commoner
    Ancestors", I can see the the mysterious Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. Some sources are given but I have not been able to check them. On Wikitrees, there is a mass of information about the Lewknors and Twisdens as
    they descend from William de Huntingfield one of the Magna Carta Barons.

    I am a bit confused as you say in the inquisition post mortem of John Michelgrove III (died 1458/9) his widow was Joan?? I thought (according to the above messages) his wife was Mary/Anne d 1478.

    According to the website "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", John Michelgrove & Mary Sidney have 2 daus, Elizabeth & unknown. No mention of son John d1459. I think maybe the Elizabeth is the dau of John IV. A
    mistake maybe. This tree is referred to a lot in Wikitrees.

    Going back to the Joan & Mary/Anne Sidney question, am I reading this incorrectly?

    Thanks in advance

    Gillian
    Hi Again,

    Yes I think that I read the previous messages incorrectly! Sorry about that.

    For my Lewknor line, the mysterious Miss Michelgrove is said to be the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. However, the sole descendent of John and Mary was Elizabeth their daughter. I do not know how my Miss
    Michelgrove fits in. It would seem from the information given above that maybe the family tree in the Visitation of Sussex (Lewknor tree) is incorrect? Maybe Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John senior and Joan? I have been playing around with the
    dates and both scenarios could be possible I think.

    Does anyone have any information?

    Thanks

    Gillian
    Bennet Lewknor was the daughter of Richard /Lewknor/ of Brambletye
    He in turn was the son of Thomas /Lewknor/ of Horsted Keynes, Sussex; Knt by Philippe /Dallingridge/
    Hi
    I have Richard Lewknor of Sherfield and not Brambletyre and Richard was the son of Roger Lewknor and Eleanor Camoys.
    Sussex Archaeological Collections.
    Gillian
    Could you specify an exact source citation so I can look it up and see what it actually states
    Hi

    The source is Sussex Archaeological Collections P98.

    Regards

    Gillian
    Why are you taking shortcuts?
    SAC has dozens and dozens of volumes.
    Which volume
    Hi
    Sorry, Volume 3.

    Regards

    Gillian
    It turns out the SAC reference is not independent. It merely cites The Baronetage article 1741 by wotton, kimber, johnson which you already cited. However in addition they add this placename which is not in the original, without citing
    how they know this.

    At any rate, it's not a scholarly article exactly, but merely a descent chart without the supporting references
    I also have a ref to SAC Vol 137 (1999) pp 153-9, which may have more, but unfortunately I have not kept details.
    Hi All,
    Thanks for replies. The SAC vol 137 article is very interesting about Sir John Lewknor son of Sir Thomas. Sir John was killed at the battle of Tewkesbury. A lot of info about his life and mentions his brother Richard of Brambletye.
    Unfortunately this is not the Richard Lewknor I am interested in.

    There is a will for Sir Roger Lewknor the father written 23rd July and proved 28th Nov 1478. According to various trees online this will mentions that Roger had a son Richard. I have a copy of this will but I am having difficultly "seeing"
    the son Richard. He is possibly written as Ricd but difficult to read. I can see sons Thomas, Roger, Roger the younger, Edward, George, Reynold & William. There is also a son in law George Baynbridge.

    I have no sources for Bennet Lewknor daughter of Richard and "Miss Michelgrove" except for the tree in SAC vol 3 which does not give any references.

    Regards
    Gillian
    https://ancestors.familysearch.org/en/G3JW-51M/sir-john-de-michelgrove-de-fauconer-iii-1398-1459

    There may be a change of name from Michelgrove/Faulkner/Fauconer to Lewknor and Shelley as a result of the changes of fortune during the war of the roses. Apparently Michelgrove was seized for a time by Henry VIII, the funds used for his
    personal wardrobe. Two owners/heirs died mysteriously after his visitation to Sussex, the castle was then left without a male heir, a court case over the age of the young heiress was filed and then she married a Shelley (previously a Faulkner).

    https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Michelgrove-1


    kind regards,
    Melodee
    https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/shelley-william-1479-1549
    SHELLEY, William (by 1479-1549), of London and Michelgrove, Suss.
    Hi Melodee,

    Thanks for the links. I need to look into this Michelgrove family again. All I have is the info discussed in this forum. On Wikitree there is further info:

    "Richard Lewknor Called Richard, the Younger due to an older uncle. He married (Miss) Michelgrove, daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney."

    The only daughter and child of John Michelgrove and Mary Sydney was Elizabeth b1460 who married John Shelly so the Wikitree information contradicts this. The Source given in Wikitrees is:

    https://our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com/p1237.htm#i37142

    This site states that the mysterious "Miss Michelgrove" was the sister of Elizabeth Michelgrove b1460. The source given is : [S74] Brent Ruesch's Research Notes.

    Best regards

    Gillian
    This source "Our Royal Titled ...." is merely a cut and paste job from One World Tree.
    It's utter and complete rubbish :)
    Not trustworthy in any regard at all.
    Searching the National Archives there is sometimes some original source material such as wills etc. I suspect that Lewkenor due to the similarity to Fawkenor is a spelling variant of the same surname, possibly due to intermarriage or political turmoil.
    There was a jacobite Falkner in prison at Windsor castle at one point, and the castle was seized by King Henry VIII before eventually being returned to the young heiress Miss Michelgrove following her marriage to a Shelley (earlier a branch of Faulkner/
    Michelgrove). I also like to speculate that she may be an illegitimate of the Tudors, hence the mystery of her lineage and the sudden appearance of her children in royal and parliamentary roles.

    https://www.geni.com/people/John-Michelgrove-Esq/4209051108010049633

    property and alias
    From http://fortunatusfamilia.com.au/getperson.php?personID=I08544&tree=...

    ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15. Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII. Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the
    King's Bench, and aged 48 and more. Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Buls- hams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near
    Fakington. and advowson of the chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called " Wantley " in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the
    sisters and heirs apparent of Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.

    Googlebooks The Baronetage of England: Or The History of the English Baronets, and Such Baronets of Scotland, as are of English Families; with Genealogical Tables, and Engravings of Their Coats of Arms, Volume 1. William Betham. Burrell and Bransby,
    1801 - Baronetage. "Shelley of Michelgrove, Sussex.". Page 68-69


    Hi All,

    Yes I agree that the One World Tree source is not at all reliable!

    I have not found any wills/IPMs for Richard Lewknor husband of "Miss Michelgrove".

    There is someting interesting in the Court of Chancery C1/330/38. John, Richard, John the younger, Agnes, Joan, Eleanor and Anne, children of Richard Lewkenour deceased versus John Lewkenour, clerk (don't know who he is), John Erneley the elder &
    younger, John Apesley and Thomas Thetcher feoffees to uses: Rent charged on the manor of Sheffeld. Annexed is an interpleader by Roger Lewkenour, eldest son of said Richard. Decree endorsed 6 May 21 Henry VII. This Richard is the son of Sir Roger Lewknor
    d1478. In his will he left the manor of Sheffeld, Sussex to his son Richard. The Pedigree of the Lewknor family in SAC vol III has children as Richard, Roger, John, John & Bennetta. Bennetta is not mentioned in the Chancery recoed and the SAC tree omits
    the daughters Agnes, Joan, Eleanor & Anne.

    I am not sure about the "sudden appearance of her children in royal and parliamentary roles". The eldest son Roger had no issue and was indicted for murder at Horsham on 13th July 1507, in a deal brokered by Edmund Dudley, Roger paid the king £200 for
    his pardon. Dudley had acquired all of Roger’s land by 1509. Dudley was attained of high treason and wrote a will whilst in the Tower of London in 1510, where he compensated the Lewknor family. The IPM File 1067, No 1 Petworth 6 May 2 Hen VIII of
    Edmund Dudley describes the lands from Roger Lewknor: Sheffield and lands in Fletching, Godstone, Little Horsted, Grethorsted, Lynefeld, Mayfield, Pevensey, Bexhill, Lyngfeld and Hertfeld co Sussex.

    The son Richard married Joanne Maskell. Richard is mentioned in his father in law's will (Richard Maskell 1523). Bennetta had three husbands: William Barnes, Thomas Twysden and Vincent Finch. I cannot find any sources saying that Bennet was the daughter
    of Richard Lewknor. There is a Twysden heraldic scroll I have seen pictures of but do not know when this was created. In this scroll is written that "Thomas Twysden was married to Benet daughter of Richard Lewkenor one of the sons of Sir Thomas Lewkenor
    knight". Richard's father was Sir Roger and not Sir Thomas! I have no further info regarding the other children.

    In all of these sources there is no mention of the wife of Richard Lewknor, the mysterious Miss Michelgrove.

    Regards

    Gillian

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