On Friday, November 28, 2003 at 8:13:14 PM UTC-7, Merilyn Pedrick wrote:

Dear List
I would like some assistance in sorting my "wheat from chaff", and wondered if you could take a look at the following, and check that my "gateway" - Ralph de Betham has the correct ancestors. The information on Ralph was provided to me by Sheila Murray, who has done a huge amount of research on the Betham family. I obtained the information on Ralph's mother's family largely from sources on the Internet, (so I realise they could be dodgy). Ralph de Betham, born about 1165 and died about 1208 married Ingaretha in 1190. My notes about Ralph say the following: "Lord of the Manor of Betham
in Westmorland. Witness to the Foundation Charter of Cockersand Abbey also
to a Deed of Alan de Donnington(?) and cure (for the health of the Souls of himself & Wife) a Salt work and two .... to .... Abbey in the County of Lancaster ... King Henry II.
RALPH DE BETHAM, changed his name to de Betham in lieu of his patronymic, on the restoration to him, in right of his grandfather, of the castle and manor of Betham on Morecambe Bay co. Westmorland, England was witness to the foundation of Cockersand Abbey 1190 m Ingaretha. (Presumably the Manor of Beetham was restored to him (c) 1190 as prior to 1195 Ralph attests no charters of an earlier date) (page 211 the Antiquities of Kendale
1184-1190 : Ralph de Bethum gave to the canons of Cockersand a saltern at Flokesti in Bethum, or wherever they chose, except at Harnolveshevet: (Charter of Cockersand (Chatham Soc) 1012) ref: page 213 of the Antiquities of Kendale)
1190-1215 : An agreement made between the church of Bethum and Adam parson the same church and Ralph de Bethum and his heirs, namely that Adam has granted to Ralph and his heirs the chapel of Arnolveshevet, so that Ralph shall find a suitable chaplain to minister therein and shall procure the necessaries for him at his own expense; Ralph and his heirs shall pay tithes in everything to the mother church, chiefly from mills and salterns, (a salt works) from which, if they shall let them to farm they shall pay in money a tenth penny to the mother church. For this the same Ralph and his heirs and his wife and household shall visit the mother church with parochial right at the six yearly feasts, namely Christmas, the Purification, the Adoration of the Cross, Easter, Whitsunday and the Assumption of St. Mary. Ralph has granted in free alms to the same church and parson 16 continuous acres of land in Ulphangrig and a competent area for founding a barn (or granary) in Arnolveshevet, in which the tithes of corn may be placed. And in order that this agreement may be strictly observed Ralph, his wife and their heirs have sworn upon the holy Evangelists that they will faithfully keep it.
Witnesses: Gilbert de Lancastre, Thomas son of Gospatric, Henry de Redemman, Gervase de Danecure (sic) Roger de Haversham, Adam Gernet: Dodsworth's MS
149 f.148 (page 214 of the Antiquities of Kendale
1190-1215 : Ralph de Bethum grants to the monks of Furness, for the health
of the soul of Ingrit his wife, a saltcote with two pans in the vill of Bethum in Ellerschawe below Flukesti with turves for the same pans and sand and material of his wood to construct the saltcote; also common of the vill for six oxen, four cows, two horses, like his free tenants have, except in Arnoslfesheved. Witness: Henry de Redmane, Alan de Penington: Coucher of Furness (Chetham Soc)ii,91 (page 214 of the Antiquities of Kendale.
1202 : Ralph de Bethum is amerced (fined) 15 marks by the Justices for a false claim : Pipe Rolls. Cumb & West. 191 (page 241 of the Antiquities of Kendale).
1207: Plea in the king's court at Westminster between the prior of Cartmell and Ralph de Bethum because Ralph obstructed the prior in the enjoyment of his fishery in Caint (R.Kent) Curia Regis Roll, 44, m2; 45, m2d and m.7d; Abbrev. Placit, 57b (page 214 The Antiquities of Kendale
1207 : Michaelmas term. The prior of Cartmell complains that Ralph de Bethum does not permit him to have common of fishing in the Water of Kent, as he
was wont to have and ought to have by the charter of Henry the king's father who gave the land of Cartmell to William Marshall, who gave that land to
the canons of Cartmell with the said common. Ralph comes and says that the canons ought not to have common in that water. The prior prays for a jury to be made whether King Henry was seised of common of that fishery when he gave that land to William Marshall and if the canons were afterwards seised of that common. The jury to come on the octaves of Martinmass. Curia Regis Roll 45, m, 2d The jury was to be summoned from cos. Westmeriland and Lancastre: ib m 7d (page 215 of the Antiquities of Kendale)
1208 : Fine made between William prior of Cartmell, plaintiff and Ralph de Bethum deforciant, respecting common fishing in the water of Kent. Ralph acknowledged the common of fishing of the water of Kent to be the right of the prior and church of St. Michael of Cartmell upon this wise: "that when the water of Kent lies between Ralph's land of Swinesnese and Heversholme
(or Henesholme) the fishing from opposite Swinesnese, by the head below Heversholme, when the water lies upon the sand so that men can pass between land and water on either side, shall be common throughout and for all, both to the prior and his successors and to Ralph and his heirs, down to the sea. When however the water of Kent shall lie close to Ralph's land or Arnulvesheved or Heversholme on either side of Heversholme or to the crags thereof and there shall be pools there lying close to the land to the crags, these pools shall be solely, freely and quietly to Ralph and his heirs, and all the remainder of the water shall be common, from the said Swinesnese by the head below Heversholme down to the sea. And when the water of Kent shall lie between the land of Cartmell and Heversholme the fishery shall be common from opposite Breidegtate by the head below Heversholme, both to Ralph and his heirs and to the prior and his successors. unless the water shall lie hard to the land of Cartmell and there shall be pools there; then in that case those pools shall be solely, freely and quietly to the prior and his successors. For this acknowledgement the prior gave Ralph five marks. Lancs. Feet of fines (Rec.Soc) xxxix 39. Fine endorsed "Lancastre, Westmeriland". p Page 215 of the Antiquities of Kendale.
Presumably Ralph de Bethum died in 1208 for in the Charter of Cockersand is the following entry:-
1208 : Roger abbot of Cockersand and the convent are bound to find two canonical priests to celebrate divine service in the church of St. Mary, Cockersand, for the souls of Ralph de Bethum and Ingrith his wife, and two beds in the farmery of the poor with clothes always prepared. Witnesses: Thomas de Bethum, Ralph and Robert his sons, Roger de Bethum, Henry and John his sons. Robert de Bethum and others (named) (page 216 of the Antiquities
of Kendale)
Ralph's parents were Adam de Betham, living 1180, and Sibilla de Poictu, daughter of Roger de Poictu, Earl of Lancaster, who was born about 1064 in Lancaster and Almodia, daughter of Boso, Earl of La Marche. Notes on Adam
de Betham say: "Of Beetham, Westmorland. Owner of estates presumably granted to his ancestors by William of Normandy.
Notes on Roger de Poictu, Earl of Lancaster say: "
For family help in conquering England, William I gave Roger of Poitou the land between the Ribble and the Mersey, Lonsdale, Cartmel and Furness. In
his turn Roger rewarded his most eminent soldiers with baronies for which they paid him military service. (page 14 of a History of Lancashire : J.J. Bagley)
About 1072, after the 1069 rebellion in the north had been mercilessly suppressed, William the Conqueror added Amounderness and the land between
the Ribble and the Mersey to other lands already possessed by young Roger of Poitou. By 1086, for reasons that are not clear, the crown had resumed administration of the land between the Ribble and the Mersey, but two years later, as part of his plan for strengthening the north-west against the Scots, the new King, William Rufus, united under Roger's control Furness, Cartmell, Lonsdale, Amounderness and the land between the Ribble and the Mersey. Since the main invasion route from Scotland came round the
Cumberland coast and across the sands of Morecambe Bay, it was logical to give the lord of Lancaster control of Cartmell and Furness. Roger did his military work well. By 1092 his forces controlled the border country round Solway Firth, and to consolidate their position were building Carlisle Castle. Roger was also giving some unity to the future county, Lancashire,
by building a castle and priory at Lancaster and by creating military fiefs such as the baronies of Manchester, Warrington, Penwortham and Widnes. The honour of Lancaster which Roger possessed included several estates in other parts of England and the old Northumbrian border along the Ribble valley still had much meaning for many northerners including the Scots. History of Lancashire : J.J. Bagley)
Recent changes in tenure recorded in Domesday Book suggests that the grants of some of these northern lordships came relatively late in the reign. Roger the Poitevin, indeed, can scarcely have been old enough to carry conquest into a disturbed region before about 1080 (Anglo-Norman England 1066-1166 : Marjorie Chibnall)
In 1094 Roger encouraged the abbot of the Benedictine abbey of St. Martin at Seez in Normandy to send a handful of monks to found a daughter house at Lancaster. Roger endowed this priory handsomely. He gave it part of the township of Lancaster, several small estates in Lonsdale and Amounderness
and the revenues of a dozen churches in Lancashire and the Midlands.
(History of Lancashire : J.J. Bagley)
In 1090 he fought with his brother, Robert de Belleme against Hugh de Grentemesnil, but when he and his brother sided with Duke Robert of Normandy against Duke Robert's brother, Henry I of England in 1102 he was deprived of his earldom and expelled from England. On his expulsion from England, Roger retired to the castle of Charroux in the county of La Marche-Limousine
having succeeded to the title of Count of La Marche on the death of his brother-in-law.
Roger de Poictu was the son of Roger de Montgomery and Mabel Talvas. My
notes for Roger de Montgomery say: " ROGER, vicomte of the Hiemois EARL ARUNDEL AND COUNT OF SHREWSBURY m Mabel Talvase, daughter and heir of
William de Belleme, Count of Alencon.
After the Conquest Mabile de Belleme only went for short visits to her husband in England. The life of intrigue and fighting which she led in her own country suited her nature much better than the comparative quiet in England where, owing to the judicious policy of William and Earl Roger,
order reigned. Before she left England, Mabile followed her husband's
example by making big endowments to the Church.
Early in 1082 Robert Curthose (William I's eldest son) started on a combined tour of study and propaganda through France, Flanders, Germany and other countries, visiting their greater courts on the way. To them he complained about the harshness of his father and applied for subsidies. To the great regret of his mother, Robert de Belleme accompanied the Prince on this pitiful journey.
Roger was a good husband, and to console his wife he visited Normandy In
June that year (1082), but his many duties in England compelled him to
return after only a short stay with her. One day in December he received the news that Mabile had been assassinated - beheaded in her bedchamber. The murderers were four officers suspected of treason. Roger's sorrow and indignation were boundless, and the King deeply regretted his best and most reliable supporter in Normandy. Big rewards were promised to those who could capture the murderers dead or alive. They were chased over practically the whole continent, but left no trace. One of them was found in the Orient during the first crusade, sixteen years later. He had sought refuge amongst the Mussulmans.
After the death of Mabile Roger immediately went to Normandy, where he remained for several years. During this time married again. His wife was Adelaide de Puiset, whose character was the very opposite to that of Mabile. While Mabile was born to intrigue and to lead out troops to battle, Adelaide spent most of her time at home embroidering altar-cloths or arranging church festivals. Which of his wives was nearest his heart is difficult to tell. Mabile was the love of his youth and, no doubt, he admired her most. But the sweet and gentle Adelaide was the comfort and companion of his old age. During his stay in Normandy Roger persuaded his son Robert to return home, and according to the wish of Mabile and with royal consent, arranged his marriage with Agnes de Ponthieu daughter and heiress of Guy, Count of Ponthiue (The Counts of Ponthieu were descended from Angilbert, who married Bertha, daughter of Charlemagne). After his marriage, Robert settled at Belleme, where he took over his mother's role as defender of Normandy's southern frontier. He also was destined to play an important but tragic part in the history of his country. (History of the Montgomerys B.de Montgomery) Shrewsbury was given to King William's most trustworthy vassal, Roger of Montgomery, who had held Arundel since 1067 and continued to hold it
The earls entrusted with pushing forward the frontiers were experienced in the problem of the marches of Normandy, Roger of Montgomery may have been given a similar licence to occupy whatever he could claim and hold in the Belleme lands after his marriage to Mabel of Belleme. From Shropshire he led his armies across Wales to the sea, and placed his son Arnulf in the castle of Pembroke. His powers, were great, as the task demanded. They have sometimes been described as 'palatine', a misleading term since they corresponded neither with those of later 'palatine earls' in Durham and Chester nor with those of contemporary counts palatine in France. Roger held the former royal demesnes in Shropshire; he appointed his own sheriffs and had more control than the king normally allowed over the castle he and his men built in the course of their conquests...........Shrewsbury was a royal castle under Roger's control; he himself built Montgomery, named after his Norman patrimony (Anglo-Norman England 1066-1166 : Marjorie Chibnall)
In mid-Wales the conquest was spearheaded by Earl Roger of Montgomery. From his base in Shrewsbury he advanced into the region to which he gave his name and built a new castle at Montgomery. Thence he struck into the heart of Cardigan, building castles all the way; before his death in 1094 his men had pushed south along the coast towards Dyfed. His son, Arnulf built a castle
at Pembroke on a site of great natural strength; along of all the fortresses it remained unconquered in the wars of the next century. Here his men linked with the Norman advance along the northern shores of the Bristol Channel, where the most lasting settlements were made (Anglo-Norman England 1066-1166 : Marjorie Chibnall)
The Montgomery-Belleme family had exceptionally large cash revenues from their lands in Normandy and France; but Roger of Montgomery found it convenient to have two very large demesnes at Singleton and Harting, near to his castle of Arundel, and this was only one side of demesne production favoured by his family. Robert of Belleme brought horses from Spain to breed on his Shropshire estates, an important step providing war horses for his military needs (Anglo-Norman England 1066-1166 : Marjorie Chibnall)
By Mabel, Roger had issue as listed below; by Adelaide de Puiset he had one son, Everard, chaplain to the kings William Rufus and Henry I. Roger died in 1094
From "Golden Falcon", Earl Roger Montgomery, William I's cousin, was the first Norman overlord of Chichester where he built a castle on the ruins of the Friary. He led the cavalry at Hastings and was given 3 manors in Wiltshire, 4 in Surrey, 8 in Middlesex. 11 in Cambridgeshire, 1 in Hereford, 1 in Gloucester, 2 in Worcestershire and 157 manors in Sussex where he also held the lordship. He was created Earl of Sussex and owned Arundel, Shrewsbury and Shropshire (originally Scrope's shire).
Roger de Montgomery II, better known as Earl Roger in the Domesday, but officially the seigneur of Montgomery, was the major recipient of Shropshire holdings. An old man of considerable wealth and power, he contributed 60 ships to the invasion fleet and was in command of a wing at the Battle of Hastings. He returned to Normandy with Queen Matilda, and the young Duke Robert as Duke William's representative in Normandy. He became head of the council that governed the Duchy of Normandy in Duke William's frequent absences in England. The Norman Montgomery family ancestry was closely interwoven either by blood or marriage with the Duchy of Normandy. However, the family history in Normandy was not without blemish. Roger had four brothers, Hugh, Robert, William and Gilbert. All four brothers were murdered in revenge for the murder of Osberne de Crepon, guardian of Duke William. Roger was the survivor. Continuing, Roger de Montgomery had four sons.
Eldest was Robert, Count of Alencon, and successor in Normandy to his vast estates which he still held for his father Roger as his chief domain. He was followed by second son, Hugh, who inherited the Earldom of Arundel, Chichester and Shrewsbury, the life custodian of the main Montgomery family domains granted in England. These would eventually go to Robert in 1098, purchased from William Rufus for 3000 pounds. Next youngest was Count Roger de Poitou who was made the first Earl of Lancaster by Duke William of Normandy, a less maganamious grant which befitted the third youngest son. Philip, the youngest, remained in Normandy and accompanied Duke Robert on
the first crusade to the Holy land, and died there in 1094.
Earl Roger was responsible to Duke William of Normandy as his chief
architect in the defence of the middle marches of the border in his defence against the Welsh. He built many castles including Montgomery, Shrewsbury, Arundel, Ludlow, Clun, Hopton and Oswestry. His son, Robert, described at
the Conquest as a 'novice in arms', but who might have been 40 by the Domesday, represented his father Earl Roger, and created some confusion in the records. Roger, the father, became the Earl of Shrewsbury and the Earl
of Arundel in England, and retained his domains in Normandy at Bailleul (Kings of Scotland), Belmeis (Beaumais), Pantulf, Vimoutiers, Say and Tornai However, Earl Roger also became confused with Roger de Beaumont in Normandy who, it is claimed, was also head of the council in Normandy. But
historians tend to think of this period as being locked in marble. The volatility of the favours of the Norman court were dynamic, heavily laced with treachery by land hungry Norman nobles eager to share in the prize of this new and wealthy land, England. The Beaumonts, Counts of Meulan in Normandy who became Earls and Counts of Leicester in England, do not seem to be related to the Montgomerys in any significant way and were very powerful in their own right, and, in a different time frame, Roger de Beaumont could also have been head of the Norman governing Council.
Since over 90% of the lordships and manors of Shropshire were held in Chief at the Domesday by the powerful Earl Roger, it is perhaps more interesting
to determine the intricate cross-weave of under tenants of Norman nobles who assisted in the administration of these domains. Surprisingly, very little
of Shropshire was retained by the King as his own land, and very little
given to the Churches and Bishops as was the usual procedure. Nevertheless, we are here dealing with the Domesday Book record, 20 years after the Conquest. In the intervening period, Earl Roger, who must by Domesday have been a very old man, and his son Robert, may well have grown and
consolidated the original grants after the Conquest to a sizeable mini-kingdom on the Welsh border, particularly since the domains were constantly changing, shifting, accomodating the intrusions and wasting by
the Welsh, and imposing great flexibility in the border boundaries. Almost all of Derbyshire was held by Earl Roger but we have listed some of the interesting under-tenants who held Castles, lordships or villages for him
and some which he still held as tenant-in-chief:
The Norman upper heirarchy was not large. This elite group consisted of 22 honours or baronies which virtually controlled all of Normandy and contributed largely to Duke William and the invasion and Conquest of England They were the Counts of Aumale, the Mortimers, the Giffards, the Ferrierers the Counts d'Eu, the Tosnys, the Bisets, the FitzOsberns, the Warrens, the Marmions, the Grantmesnils, the Malets, the FitzGilberts or Baldwins, the Tancarvilles, the Vernons, the Beaumonts, the Paynels, the Aubignys, the Monforts, the Estouvilles, the Bisets, and the Gournays. These houses, or their offshoots, or lesser houses, would play an important role in English history for the next 3 centuries, and give rise to thousands of
distinguished surnames throughout Britain. To the observant, it will be noticed that certain other significants familes are missing from this role
of honour such as the Baliols, the Bigots, the Bullys, the de Lacys, the Mandevilles, the Mowbrays, the Montgomerys, the Pomeroys, the Percys, the St Johns, the Tracys, the Skiptons, the Montfichets, and many others. The circumstances of the latter names and their subsequent rise to fame are variable and complex, and are bound up with the Norman protocols from which surnames emerged either in Normandy itself or later in the settlement of England (see Heraldry Today on this Web site).
Earl Roger' s Shropshire Land Holdings in Domesday 1086: Alveley, Baschurch, Berwick(Shrewsbury)Cheney Longville, Chetton, Chirbury, Claverley, Corfham, Culmington, Donington, Dudston, Eardington, Edenhope, Edgmond, Ellesmere, Fenemere, Ford, High Ercall, Hockleton, Hodnet, Kingsmordley, Leebotwood, Loppington, Lydham, Minsterley, Montford, Morville, Netley , Oswestry, Poynton, Pulley, Quatford, Quatt, Rhiston, Romsley, Rorrington, Rowton, Rudge, Ruyton, Shavington, Shawbury, Shifnall, Shipley, Shrewsbury, Siefton, Smethcott, Spoonley, Stottesdon, Stretton The Marsh, Tong, Tuange, Walcot, Wellington, Whittingslow, Whittington, Wilderley, Wistanstow, Withington, Woodcote(Newport), Wotherton, Wrockwardine, Ackley, Aston, Basley, Churchstoke.
Best wishes
Merilyn Pedrick
Mylor, South Australia

Please delete if not allowed but I find it that the De Burton which becomes Burton in England and De Bethum are the same individuals/family possibly one recorded in English and one in French.
1216 The son or daughter and heir of Roger de Burton was a hostage for Gilbert fitz Reinfred. R. Chart., 221b.
¶1216 The son or daughter and heir of Thomas de Bethum was to be delivered to the king as hostage by Gilbert Fitz-Reinfrid for his fidelity; R. de Finibus (Rec. Com.), 571.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/kendale-barony/vol2/pp211-238 https://www.british-history.ac.uk/kendale-barony/vol2/pp274-291

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