On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 10:48:27 PM UTC+1, Will Johnson wrote:
On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 4:25:54 AM UTC-7, Alan Jones wrote:
On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 12:18:04 PM UTC+1, Peter Stewart wrote:
On 17-Apr-23 8:19 PM, Alan Jones wrote:
A document, purportedly noted by a Herald in the 1580s, was referenced by him as "Ex Libro Cartaceo script temp Henry VI". I can't fathom out what Cartaceo means. Can anyone assist, please?
It means from a paper book.
Peter Stewart
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Thank you very much Peter. It makes the reference even vaguer than I thought it would be!
Alan Jones
Perhaps you could give the full citation to where you saw this
Will Johnson asked for some more information.
In 1877 a John Brodrick Dale commissioned Stephen Tucker, a herald in the College of Arms, to copy the contents of a collection held by the College which related to a Dale family and which had been compiled by Robert Dale (from the same family), who was
Richmond Herald between 1721 and 1722. Tucker’s copy of the collection was eventually deposited with the Society of Genealogists in London. Included in that collection is a transcript made by Robert Dale of an earlier transcript made in 1582 by
another herald, Robert Glover (1534-1588), Somerset Herald. That 1582 transcript was Robert Glover's transcript of a statement in an earlier document which he had presumably seen. Robert Dale's transcript of the Glover transcript was:
"Otho D. 4 125 a latter Numbers
The Earle of Hereford that wedded the sister of Richard Erle [sic] of Arundell by whom he had two daughters & heires had also a brother and that brother had a daughter that was wedded to Sir Thomas Dale and that Sir Thomas Dale had issue Thomas Dale and
Dame Blaunche and Dame Blaunche had issue Thomas Venables.
Ex Libro Cartaceo script temp Henry VI
Transcript by Robt Glover, Somerset, anno 1582."
If the contents of this are of interest to anyone, the persons referred to can be identified:
The Earl of Hereford was Humphrey de Bohun, earl of Northampton, Hereford, and Essex (born 1342, died 1372/3), who married, in 1359, Joan de Arundel, a sister of Richard de Arundel, Earl of Arundel and Surrey (1347-1397). Humphrey and Joan had two
daughters, who were the coheirs, Eleanor and Mary. The wife of Sir Thomas Dale was not named but there is evidence that her name was Sybil or Isabel.
Sir Thomas Dale was the man described here:
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433000977011&view=1up&seq=442&q1=Dale
and he was one of a number of knights who perished when a number of ships under the command of Sir John Arundel were wrecked in a storm off off the coast of Ireland in December 1379.
https://archive.org/details/earlynavalhisto01soutgoog/page/n296/mode/2up (pages 291-294)
But, the de Bohun pedigrees do not mention Sybil (or Isabel), or any such brother of Humphrey de Bohun (he is recorded as having only one full sibling, his sister Elizabeth, and a half-brother (on his mother’s side) Roger de Mortimer (1328-1359), Earl
of March). So, either the record seen in 1582 was wrong or perhaps Sibyl’s father was illegitimate and unrecorded.
The reference "Otho D. 4 125 a latter numbers" (more correctly D (iv)) relates to folios 125 plus, manuscripts in the "Cotton Library", which was assembled by Sir Robert Bruce Cotton (1571-1631) The original document was unidentified beyond “Ex Libro
Cartaceo script temp Henry VI”. In a Catalogue of the Cotton Library, Otho D (iv) was described as "Collections of Robert Glover". So it seems that it was the 1582 transcript by Robert Glover, rather than the original document, which was in the library.
Unfortunately Otho D (iv) folios 120-127 were among the documents which were lost or destroyed in a fire in the library in 1731.
Alan Jones
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