Back in 2007 there was an exchange about Penelope West, wife of the Herbert Pelham who died in 1624: https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/GHukRPSybUU/m/77IsTvVzOWEJ. I apologise if what follows partially or wholly duplicates posts in
subsequent threads.

Maddison's Lincolnshire Pedigrees states that Herbert Pelham married twice, his second wife being an Anne who was buried at Boston, Lincolnshire on 20 March 1637/8; and that Herbert and Anne had four children: Anthony, baptised at Boston on 24 May 1621;
Anne, buried at Boston on 10 March 1622/3; Martha, baptised at Boston on 6 March 1622/3 and buried there on 19 April 1624; and Elizabeth, baptised ast Boston on 6 July 1624 and living unmarried in 1674. See A R Madison, Lincolnshire Pedigrees, Viol. III,
Harleian Society, 1904, p. 767, https://archive.org/details/lincolnshireped00larkgoog/page/n32/mode/2up.

Douglas Richardson, in both the 2nd edition of Magna Carta Ancestry (Vol. IV, p. 327) and in Royal Ancestry (Vol. V, p. 355), states that Penelope died in about 1619. This may be on the basis of the baptism dates of Herbert Pelham's daughters by his
supposed second wife.

Another researcher has been looking at relevant records of estate administrations at a Family History Centre and she and I have been having discussions. The information she has found proves that Penelope was alive when Herbert Pelham died, and hence that
he did not have a second wife called Anne.

On 24 September 1624 Penelope was granted administration of the estate of "her late husband Herberte Pelham late of Boston above said deceased". The administration bond was also signed by another Herbert Pelham and by Anthonie Pelham. The signatures of
all three are clearly visible on the record. Penelope was therefore very much alive then. - Inventory and Bond of Harbart Pelham senior of Boston, Wills and administrations of the Episcopal Consistory Court of Lincoln, England, 1506-1857, Administrations
1624 number 132, Familysearch reference Film 008315772 image 435. (The record is unfortunately, not viewable online but the researcher who found it has shared images with me.)

Co-signatory Herbert was probably her son, who was born in about 1600 (his 1626 marriage licence gives his age then as 26 - "Allegations for Marriage Licences issued by the Bishop of London, 1611 to 1828", Vol. II, Harleian Society, 1887, p. 177, https://
archive.org/details/publicationshar09socigoog/page/n184/mode/2up. Anthonie (d. 1659) was likely to have been Penelope's nephew, son of her sister Elizabeth who was the 2nd wife of Penelope's father-in-law.

There is an administration record for the estate of the Anne Pelham buried on 20 March 1637/8: she was a spinster and administration of her estate was granted to her brother Charles.

Joseph Lemuel Chester in an 1879 article in the New England Historical and Genealogical Register states that, according to a Roll of his ancestry by Herbert Pelham's great-grandson Samuel Bennett, Penelope and Herbert Pelham had 16 children, of whom one
was Anthony, almost certainly the Anthony baptised in 1621. - "Herbert Pelham, his Ancestors and Descendants", NEHGR, Vol. XXXIII, 1879, pp. 289-290, https://books.google.co.uk/books?vid=0L8Iquw0p__lPIgsgILkBfq&id=jtYSJeIFBFAC&pg=RA1-PA290&lpg=RA1-PA290&
dq=herbert+Pelham&as_brr=1&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=herbert%20Pelham&f=false.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 3:54:49 AM UTC-7, Michael Cayley wrote:

Back in 2007 there was an exchange about Penelope West, wife of the Herbert Pelham who died in 1624: https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/GHukRPSybUU/m/77IsTvVzOWEJ. I apologise if what follows partially or wholly duplicates posts in

subsequent threads.

Maddison's Lincolnshire Pedigrees states that Herbert Pelham married twice, his second wife being an Anne who was buried at Boston, Lincolnshire on 20 March 1637/8; and that Herbert and Anne had four children: Anthony, baptised at Boston on 24 May 1621;

Anne, buried at Boston on 10 March 1622/3; Martha, baptised at Boston on 6 March 1622/3 and buried there on 19 April 1624; and Elizabeth, baptised ast Boston on 6 July 1624 and living unmarried in 1674. See A R Madison, Lincolnshire Pedigrees, Viol. III,
Harleian Society, 1904, p. 767, https://archive.org/details/lincolnshireped00larkgoog/page/n32/mode/2up.

Douglas Richardson, in both the 2nd edition of Magna Carta Ancestry (Vol. IV, p. 327) and in Royal Ancestry (Vol. V, p. 355), states that Penelope died in about 1619. This may be on the basis of the baptism dates of Herbert Pelham's daughters by his

supposed second wife.

Another researcher has been looking at relevant records of estate administrations at a Family History Centre and she and I have been having discussions. The information she has found proves that Penelope was alive when Herbert Pelham died, and hence

that he did not have a second wife called Anne.

On 24 September 1624 Penelope was granted administration of the estate of "her late husband Herberte Pelham late of Boston above said deceased". The administration bond was also signed by another Herbert Pelham and by Anthonie Pelham. The signatures of

all three are clearly visible on the record. Penelope was therefore very much alive then. - Inventory and Bond of Harbart Pelham senior of Boston, Wills and administrations of the Episcopal Consistory Court of Lincoln, England, 1506-1857, Administrations
1624 number 132, Familysearch reference Film 008315772 image 435. (The record is unfortunately, not viewable online but the researcher who found it has shared images with me.)

Co-signatory Herbert was probably her son, who was born in about 1600 (his 1626 marriage licence gives his age then as 26 - "Allegations for Marriage Licences issued by the Bishop of London, 1611 to 1828", Vol. II, Harleian Society, 1887, p. 177, https:

//archive.org/details/publicationshar09socigoog/page/n184/mode/2up. Anthonie (d. 1659) was likely to have been Penelope's nephew, son of her sister Elizabeth who was the 2nd wife of Penelope's father-in-law.

There is an administration record for the estate of the Anne Pelham buried on 20 March 1637/8: she was a spinster and administration of her estate was granted to her brother Charles.

Joseph Lemuel Chester in an 1879 article in the New England Historical and Genealogical Register states that, according to a Roll of his ancestry by Herbert Pelham's great-grandson Samuel Bennett, Penelope and Herbert Pelham had 16 children, of whom

one was Anthony, almost certainly the Anthony baptised in 1621. - "Herbert Pelham, his Ancestors and Descendants", NEHGR, Vol. XXXIII, 1879, pp. 289-290, https://books.google.co.uk/books?vid=0L8Iquw0p__lPIgsgILkBfq&id=jtYSJeIFBFAC&pg=RA1-PA290&lpg=RA1-
PA290&dq=herbert+Pelham&as_brr=1&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=herbert%20Pelham&f=false.


https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:CSQR-62W2
Gives the names of the parents of that Anthony bap 24 May 1621
as Harbard and Elinor

Curiously Herbert Pelham "abt 24" in 1624 married Jemima Waldegrave in 1626/7
I wonder if these four orphans could potentially be assigned to him?

Or was there another floating cousin also called Herbert with a wife Elinor having these four children?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Thanks. Either there is a set of transcription errors on Familysearch or the record there is for a different Anthonie. There is a very clear parish register image on FindMySearch showing the baptism of Anthonie the sonne of Harbert Pelham on 24 May 1621
at St Botolph's, Boston, Lincolnshire: https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FLINCS%2FBOSTON_ST_BOTOLPH_PAR_1_2%2F0916&parentid=GBPRS%2FLINCS%2FBAP%2F00226349. No mother is named.

On Saturday, 1 April 2023 at 15:41:40 UTC+1, Will Johnson wrote:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:CSQR-62W2
Gives the names of the parents of that Anthony bap 24 May 1621
as Harbard and Elinor

Curiously Herbert Pelham "abt 24" in 1624 married Jemima Waldegrave in 1626/7
I wonder if these four orphans could potentially be assigned to him?

Or was there another floating cousin also called Herbert with a wife Elinor having these four children?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

My working presumption is that the transcript on Familysearch is in error. Not uncommon with transcripts, and that is the simplest explanation. The researcher who has been discussing all this with me also found another image of the parish register at the
Family History Centre she visited which shows Anthonie as just son of the sonne of Harbert Pelham Esquire, with no mother named. Actual images of the parish register itself must be the best evidence we have for baptism information.


On Saturday, 1 April 2023 at 17:54:59 UTC+1, Will Johnson wrote:

On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 9:35:53 AM UTC-7, Michael Cayley wrote:

Thanks. Either there is a set of transcription errors on Familysearch or the record there is for a different Anthonie. There is a very clear parish register image on FindMySearch showing the baptism of Anthonie the sonne of Harbert Pelham on 24 May

1621 at St Botolph's, Boston, Lincolnshire: https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FLINCS%2FBOSTON_ST_BOTOLPH_PAR_1_2%2F0916&parentid=GBPRS%2FLINCS%2FBAP%2F00226349. No mother is named.

On Saturday, 1 April 2023 at 15:41:40 UTC+1, Will Johnson wrote:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:CSQR-62W2
Gives the names of the parents of that Anthony bap 24 May 1621
as Harbard and Elinor

Curiously Herbert Pelham "abt 24" in 1624 married Jemima Waldegrave in 1626/7
I wonder if these four orphans could potentially be assigned to him?

Or was there another floating cousin also called Herbert with a wife Elinor having these four children?

So I different one on the same day at the same parish?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 9:35:53 AM UTC-7, Michael Cayley wrote:

Thanks. Either there is a set of transcription errors on Familysearch or the record there is for a different Anthonie. There is a very clear parish register image on FindMySearch showing the baptism of Anthonie the sonne of Harbert Pelham on 24 May

1621 at St Botolph's, Boston, Lincolnshire: https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FLINCS%2FBOSTON_ST_BOTOLPH_PAR_1_2%2F0916&parentid=GBPRS%2FLINCS%2FBAP%2F00226349. No mother is named.

On Saturday, 1 April 2023 at 15:41:40 UTC+1, Will Johnson wrote:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:CSQR-62W2
Gives the names of the parents of that Anthony bap 24 May 1621
as Harbard and Elinor

Curiously Herbert Pelham "abt 24" in 1624 married Jemima Waldegrave in 1626/7
I wonder if these four orphans could potentially be assigned to him?

Or was there another floating cousin also called Herbert with a wife Elinor having these four children?

So I different one on the same day at the same parish?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

There definitely is a transcription error on Familysearch. What it gives as Elinor is actually, if one look at the image, parish register Esquire. Mystery solved.

On Saturday, 1 April 2023 at 18:06:38 UTC+1, Michael Cayley wrote:

My working presumption is that the transcript on Familysearch is in error. Not uncommon with transcripts, and that is the simplest explanation. The researcher who has been discussing all this with me also found another image of the parish register at

the Family History Centre she visited which shows Anthonie as just son of the sonne of Harbert Pelham Esquire, with no mother named. Actual images of the parish register itself must be the best evidence we have for baptism information.

On Saturday, 1 April 2023 at 17:54:59 UTC+1, Will Johnson wrote:

On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 9:35:53 AM UTC-7, Michael Cayley wrote:

Thanks. Either there is a set of transcription errors on Familysearch or the record there is for a different Anthonie. There is a very clear parish register image on FindMySearch showing the baptism of Anthonie the sonne of Harbert Pelham on 24 May

1621 at St Botolph's, Boston, Lincolnshire: https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FLINCS%2FBOSTON_ST_BOTOLPH_PAR_1_2%2F0916&parentid=GBPRS%2FLINCS%2FBAP%2F00226349. No mother is named.

On Saturday, 1 April 2023 at 15:41:40 UTC+1, Will Johnson wrote:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:CSQR-62W2
Gives the names of the parents of that Anthony bap 24 May 1621
as Harbard and Elinor

Curiously Herbert Pelham "abt 24" in 1624 married Jemima Waldegrave in 1626/7
I wonder if these four orphans could potentially be assigned to him?

Or was there another floating cousin also called Herbert with a wife Elinor having these four children?

So I different one on the same day at the same parish?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

There is definitely a transcription error on Familysearch. What seems to have happened is that Esquire, which is what the parish register shows, has been mis-transcribed as Elinor. Esquire is very clear in the image on FindMyPast: I gather from the
researcher I have been collaborating with that the Family History Centre has a much less distinct image.


On Saturday, 1 April 2023 at 18:06:38 UTC+1, Michael Cayley wrote:

My working presumption is that the transcript on Familysearch is in error. Not uncommon with transcripts, and that is the simplest explanation. The researcher who has been discussing all this with me also found another image of the parish register at

the Family History Centre she visited which shows Anthonie as just son of the sonne of Harbert Pelham Esquire, with no mother named. Actual images of the parish register itself must be the best evidence we have for baptism information.

On Saturday, 1 April 2023 at 17:54:59 UTC+1, Will Johnson wrote:

On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 9:35:53 AM UTC-7, Michael Cayley wrote:

Thanks. Either there is a set of transcription errors on Familysearch or the record there is for a different Anthonie. There is a very clear parish register image on FindMySearch showing the baptism of Anthonie the sonne of Harbert Pelham on 24 May

1621 at St Botolph's, Boston, Lincolnshire: https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FLINCS%2FBOSTON_ST_BOTOLPH_PAR_1_2%2F0916&parentid=GBPRS%2FLINCS%2FBAP%2F00226349. No mother is named.

On Saturday, 1 April 2023 at 15:41:40 UTC+1, Will Johnson wrote:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:CSQR-62W2
Gives the names of the parents of that Anthony bap 24 May 1621
as Harbard and Elinor

Curiously Herbert Pelham "abt 24" in 1624 married Jemima Waldegrave in 1626/7
I wonder if these four orphans could potentially be assigned to him?

Or was there another floating cousin also called Herbert with a wife Elinor having these four children?

So I different one on the same day at the same parish?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Hello. Long time listener, first time poster. I'm the researcher that Michael has been corresponding with.
The parish registers of St Botolph, Boston, Lincolnshire are available online both on FamilySearch (FSCs only) and FindMyPast (subscription). I have access to both. The FamilySearch images are old and pretty poor and these are the images which
transcribers were expected to work from. Even so, mistaking "Esquire" for "Elinor" was a poor transcription error on an image that wasn't that bad. The FMP images of the same register have been cleaned up/ are a much better re-imaging, and although still
in black and white, are very easy to read.

I had originally thought that Herbert who died in 1624 with a 24 year old son Herbert, that the children born between 1621 and 1624 were the children of the son. However, when the son Herbert married in 1626 to Jemima Waldegrave, the marriage licence
issued by the Bishop of London showed that he was a bachelor.

Jo Fitz-Henry, England Project Coordinator, WikiTree.


On Saturday, 1 April 2023 at 18:23:50 UTC+1, Michael Cayley wrote:

There is definitely a transcription error on Familysearch. What seems to have happened is that Esquire, which is what the parish register shows, has been mis-transcribed as Elinor. Esquire is very clear in the image on FindMyPast: I gather from the

researcher I have been collaborating with that the Family History Centre has a much less distinct image.

On Saturday, 1 April 2023 at 18:06:38 UTC+1, Michael Cayley wrote:

My working presumption is that the transcript on Familysearch is in error. Not uncommon with transcripts, and that is the simplest explanation. The researcher who has been discussing all this with me also found another image of the parish register at

the Family History Centre she visited which shows Anthonie as just son of the sonne of Harbert Pelham Esquire, with no mother named. Actual images of the parish register itself must be the best evidence we have for baptism information.

On Saturday, 1 April 2023 at 17:54:59 UTC+1, Will Johnson wrote:

On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 9:35:53 AM UTC-7, Michael Cayley wrote:

Thanks. Either there is a set of transcription errors on Familysearch or the record there is for a different Anthonie. There is a very clear parish register image on FindMySearch showing the baptism of Anthonie the sonne of Harbert Pelham on 24

May 1621 at St Botolph's, Boston, Lincolnshire: https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FLINCS%2FBOSTON_ST_BOTOLPH_PAR_1_2%2F0916&parentid=GBPRS%2FLINCS%2FBAP%2F00226349. No mother is named.

On Saturday, 1 April 2023 at 15:41:40 UTC+1, Will Johnson wrote:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:CSQR-62W2
Gives the names of the parents of that Anthony bap 24 May 1621
as Harbard and Elinor

Curiously Herbert Pelham "abt 24" in 1624 married Jemima Waldegrave in 1626/7
I wonder if these four orphans could potentially be assigned to him?

Or was there another floating cousin also called Herbert with a wife Elinor having these four children?

So I different one on the same day at the same parish?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sunday, April 2, 2023 at 8:23:24 AM UTC-7, Jo Fitz-Henry wrote:

Hello. Long time listener, first time poster. I'm the researcher that Michael has been corresponding with.
The parish registers of St Botolph, Boston, Lincolnshire are available online both on FamilySearch (FSCs only) and FindMyPast (subscription). I have access to both. The FamilySearch images are old and pretty poor and these are the images which

transcribers were expected to work from. Even so, mistaking "Esquire" for "Elinor" was a poor transcription error on an image that wasn't that bad. The FMP images of the same register have been cleaned up/ are a much better re-imaging, and although still
in black and white, are very easy to read.

I had originally thought that Herbert who died in 1624 with a 24 year old son Herbert, that the children born between 1621 and 1624 were the children of the son. However, when the son Herbert married in 1626 to Jemima Waldegrave, the marriage licence

issued by the Bishop of London showed that he was a bachelor.


Will you post a link to that marriage license

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Here is a link to a transcript of the 1626 marriage licence allegation. L J Chester. Allegations of Marriage Licences issued by the Bishop of London 1611 to 1828, the Publications of the Harleian Society, Vol XXVI, 1887, page 177, https://archive.org/
details/publicationshar09socigoog/page/n184/mode/2up. As you will see, it states that Herbert was a bachelor.

On Sunday, 2 April 2023 at 17:39:49 UTC+1, Will Johnson wrote:

On Sunday, April 2, 2023 at 8:23:24 AM UTC-7, Jo Fitz-Henry wrote:

Hello. Long time listener, first time poster. I'm the researcher that Michael has been corresponding with.
The parish registers of St Botolph, Boston, Lincolnshire are available online both on FamilySearch (FSCs only) and FindMyPast (subscription). I have access to both. The FamilySearch images are old and pretty poor and these are the images which

transcribers were expected to work from. Even so, mistaking "Esquire" for "Elinor" was a poor transcription error on an image that wasn't that bad. The FMP images of the same register have been cleaned up/ are a much better re-imaging, and although still
in black and white, are very easy to read.

I had originally thought that Herbert who died in 1624 with a 24 year old son Herbert, that the children born between 1621 and 1624 were the children of the son. However, when the son Herbert married in 1626 to Jemima Waldegrave, the marriage licence

issued by the Bishop of London showed that he was a bachelor.

Will you post a link to that marriage license

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Also, I hope this sharing link works to the original register of Marriage Licence Allegations (Office of the Bishop of London) as it shows Hebert's signature. Sorry I can't find a way to embed this very long link into the text.
https://www.ancestry.com/sharing/2856186?token=7b22746f6b656e223a226354585842556b434845794269737047626b594e34734e5864663662514b426552716c6c344d67614876633d222c22746f6b656e5f76657273696f6e223a225632227d&clickref=1100lwGyNfrU%2C1100lwGyNfrU&adref=&o_xid=
01011l4xx5&o_lid=01011l4xx5&o_sch=Affiliate+External
This show the same signature as that on the administration bond for the Hebert Pelham who died in 1624 in Boston, Lincs.

Also the image of the administration bond for the estate of Hebert Pelham who died 1624 in Boston, Lincs can be viewed via this link at a Family Search Center. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSRY-D5P3?i=434&cat=196273

On Sunday, 2 April 2023 at 19:16:58 UTC+1, Michael Cayley wrote:

Here is a link to a transcript of the 1626 marriage licence allegation. L J Chester. Allegations of Marriage Licences issued by the Bishop of London 1611 to 1828, the Publications of the Harleian Society, Vol XXVI, 1887, page 177, https://archive.org/

details/publicationshar09socigoog/page/n184/mode/2up. As you will see, it states that Herbert was a bachelor.

On Sunday, 2 April 2023 at 17:39:49 UTC+1, Will Johnson wrote:

On Sunday, April 2, 2023 at 8:23:24 AM UTC-7, Jo Fitz-Henry wrote:

Hello. Long time listener, first time poster. I'm the researcher that Michael has been corresponding with.
The parish registers of St Botolph, Boston, Lincolnshire are available online both on FamilySearch (FSCs only) and FindMyPast (subscription). I have access to both. The FamilySearch images are old and pretty poor and these are the images which

transcribers were expected to work from. Even so, mistaking "Esquire" for "Elinor" was a poor transcription error on an image that wasn't that bad. The FMP images of the same register have been cleaned up/ are a much better re-imaging, and although still
in black and white, are very easy to read.

I had originally thought that Herbert who died in 1624 with a 24 year old son Herbert, that the children born between 1621 and 1624 were the children of the son. However, when the son Herbert married in 1626 to Jemima Waldegrave, the marriage

licence issued by the Bishop of London showed that he was a bachelor.

Will you post a link to that marriage license

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)